mortrialus.3062

"Grenades Holo is the type of innovation we like to see in players." -CMC

> @"Kylden Ar.3724" said:

> > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> > > @"Jazz.4639" said:

> > > hi sry for the delay i needed to reach weekend to make some time for this. i also will just ignore the beef and negativity and focus on the suggestions made, bc anything aside that is not rly helping me to keep my motivation up to put more time into this. in case i overlooked or missunderstood something while trying to go throu all the new posts then just correct me or add your suggestion again.

> >

> > It's far from the first time people are doing this kind of job, at best they'll take your worst suggestion implement it and say "mesmer is now in a good place", at worst they'll say kitten you or implement the ideas in such a way mesmer will be in an even worse state.

> >

> > Did you ever saw those movies were the doctor is trying to revive a patient and the other doctors and nurses stop him saying "snap out of it, he's gone!" ? - it's this thread.

>

> This so much. I think it's cute that people think this will be anything but a "Let's nerf this more" list.

>

> > @"XenesisII.1540" said:

> > > TeaPot is the one that said Mirage was "Still OP, quite scary" while CMC nodded in agreement.

> >

> > lmao I think that answers how far this entire discussion will go. He hard nerfed mirage and left it to be resolved by the pve devs, he has no intention of balancing mirage, or he would have been trying to do so for the past 6 months, hell they even took a pot shot nerf at one of it's skills last patch, the class is already dead in wvw.

> >

> > As for actual mirage problem, opinions obviously vary on this, from too much defense, too much offense, or the usual I just hate facing clones. If anet sees mirage cloak as the biggest problem with it's offense and defense at the same time, then toned down one or the other, they have the ability to split skills or split numbers so kitten use it, I mean that is cal's job isn't it? to balance pvp? Instead he hard nerfs and wipes his hands of the problem completely and doesn't want to talk about it. So much for trying to balance and provide as much variety in builds huh mr balance dev.

> >

> > If mirage was so kitten op we would be seeing a flood of them, and we don't, there's better roaming and group classes to use.

> > But hey submit the next round of nerfs, can't wait for them to overhaul/nerf 3 entire specs to bring back a dodge to one spec.

>

> Pretty sure CMC is one of those warriors that did nothing but complain about Thieves and Mesmers they could not catch to gank in WvW.

D+D Cele Ele in core, actually.

> @"viquing.8254" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > @"Jazz.4639" said:

> > > op compared to current state of other classes is not true otherwsie it would see more play.

> >

> > CMC explicitly disagrees.

> >

>

> Only good player play rev and only bad players play mesmers, that's why you have the class representation for anet :D

"Grenades holo is the type of innovation we like to see from players."

> @"Jazz.4639" said:

> op compared to current state of other classes is not true otherwsie it would see more play.

CMC explicitly disagrees.

> @"Yoci.2481" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > @"viquing.8254" said:

> > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > On TeaPot's stream with CMC they talked about all the classes except Mesmer and they specifically said they weren't going to talk about mesmer at all and the only thing they said about how it's "Mirage is still OP, quite scary".

> > > >

> > > > Sorry @"Jazz.4639" this is a lot of good work but I just think it's clear they aren't interested and aren't listening and that's the lead balance dev's mindset. I think it's pretty clear they don't want mesmer to be meta or particularly good in PvP just on a philosophical perspective. Not necessarily bad or unplayable, but like a minionmancer or turret engie where it's just never going to be really all that good and there's always a better class to play.

> > >

> > > The one from months ago or they did it recently ?

> >

> > [Yesterday. ](

> >

> > TeaPot is the one that said Mirage was "Still OP, quite scary" while CMC nodded in agreement.

>

> What... how... I mean... why....

>

> ~ . ~ '

"Just to piss them off" in TeaPot's words.

> @"Ovark.2514" said:

> > @"Shao.7236" said:

> > Well yeah, it's not fun to get constantly blinded and dazed given you are basically sustaining perfectly until that one hit catching you at a bad time. Add the possible 3k into the mix.

>

> Yeah that's the real issue: Flashbang. It's like that mesmer trait all over again where you are always blinded.

Blinding Dissipation was at least tied to actual skills with actual cooldowns that you're incentivized to use primarily when properly set up with clones, whereas Engineer it's tied to Endurance so they have two at any time plus they run Sigil of Energy and roll around with some decent vigor as a cherry on top. You can avoid the shatter skills that caused blind. Explosive Entrance and Flash Bang is ALWAYS going to get you sooner or later unless somehow you just don't take ANY chip damage at all in the fight.

> @"viquing.8254" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > On TeaPot's stream with CMC they talked about all the classes except Mesmer and they specifically said they weren't going to talk about mesmer at all and the only thing they said about how it's "Mirage is still OP, quite scary".

> >

> > Sorry @"Jazz.4639" this is a lot of good work but I just think it's clear they aren't interested and aren't listening and that's the lead balance dev's mindset. I think it's pretty clear they don't want mesmer to be meta or particularly good in PvP just on a philosophical perspective. Not necessarily bad or unplayable, but like a minionmancer or turret engie where it's just never going to be really all that good and there's always a better class to play.

>

> The one from months ago or they did it recently ?

[Yesterday. ](

TeaPot is the one that said Mirage was "Still OP, quite scary" while CMC nodded in agreement.

On TeaPot's stream with CMC they talked about all the classes except Mesmer and they specifically said they weren't going to talk about mesmer at all and the only thing they said about how it's "Mirage is still OP, quite scary".

Sorry @"Jazz.4639" this is a lot of good work but I just think it's clear they aren't interested and aren't listening and that's the lead balance dev's mindset. I think it's pretty clear they don't want mesmer to be meta or particularly good in PvP just on a philosophical perspective. Not necessarily bad or unplayable, but like a minionmancer or turret engie where it's just never going to be really all that good and there's always a better class to play.

> @"MidJuly.1839" said:

> @"mortrialus.3062"

> I don't disagree but again you're taking it into a vacuum. A lot of mechanics have changed for other classes too. It's been 8 years and some mechanics that have been there since inception, are just not going to change. Yea Power shatter is predictable AF, but back in the day it was advertised as counterplay. Now you're looking at it as a downside.

> Yes Cry (f2) scales poorly, but the alternative would require further nerfs to application elsewhere.

>

> The problem for me personally these days is, how unreliable clone AI and by proxy their Shatter pathing is. Not being able to reliably shatter on demand, in that exact moment when you press it, effectively giving your opponent extra time to dodge your carefully timed burst, is just a silly design. Think of how much that augmented, the way you play. That's why I loved Chrono so much, having the super speed on clones made all the difference in the world, for me. But that silly mechanic, opens up some interesting play options and some have really made use of it.

>

> As for the discrepancy between condi Mes damage and other condi classes. Yes they're much lower, but the kit is designed around many small sources of pressure. Think along the line of, the longer you stay offensive the more condi you apply, whereas with other classes it's more focused. It seems like a weird choice at first, but if you consider we are ~~able~~ expected to dodge offensively, it kind of fits with the playstyle. Historically for me, the moment I go defensive, I tend to lose much more than if I go balls deep at 2k HP and scream "Banzai!"

>

> @Mortialus I really appreciate the data. I usually play with estimates and rarely get actual figures. So thank you for that.

>

> > @"Curunen.8729" said:

> > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > @"MidJuly.1839" said:

> > > > @"bravan.3876" @"Leonidrex.5649" @"mortrialus.3062" @"viquing.8254" @"Jazz.4639" and everyone else that got dragged into this:

> > > > Ok this thread started off with the usual overly positive suggestions and everyone holding hands and singing koombaya, but it's devolved into a sink for all the grudges, held between forum vets. I like to think that us Mesmers have always been the level headed side of the community, except when I get drunk and triggered obv. Can we please agree upon some semblance of constructive criticism, that doesn't result in pointing at each others' shortcomings over the past 5 years?

> > > >

> > > > Bottomline is: Mesmer's current kit has all the damage (be it power or condi) to successfully execute its purpose in a fight (regardless of game mode). But it lacks the supplemental kit support (backbone?), to actually pull it off in live scenarios (Chaos and not the traitline, +1s, etc). So if you look at it in a vacuum, yea the options are there. You just never get to play the kit as expected, because of lackluster complementation.

> > > >

> > > > Does Mesmer need a damage buff? I honestly think we're fine.

> > > > Do we need a defensive buff? Probably not.

> > > > Do we need massive QoL overhaul? Absolutely!

> > > > As it is now, Mesmer has an auto-immune disease and has to fight against, its own mechanics to succeed.

> > >

> > > Going to disagree still. I'd actually say power and condi have the opposite problems.

> > >... [cut to reduce quote size] ...

> >

> > Excellent breakdown and analysis. :+1:

>

> Noob Mesmer, BAN, BAN!

>

> _To be edited as I'm on a roll. P.S. Ignore the incoherent gibberish, I've had a few._

I'd actually argue the opposite. Right now condi rev, condi weaver, condi guardian are based on lots of pulses of smaller damage while Condi mesmer is built around really two primary damage sources, Cry of Frustration and whichever Phantasm you're using. The skills between these two bursts are ridiculously miniscule.

I remember Sorcerer and Ranger being super OP in Aion and melee in general being god awful in aerial combat.

In two posts this thread is a better classical tragedy than Shakespeare's works.

> @"MidJuly.1839" said:

> @"bravan.3876" @"Leonidrex.5649" @"mortrialus.3062" @"viquing.8254" @"Jazz.4639" and everyone else that got dragged into this:

> Ok this thread started off with the usual overly positive suggestions and everyone holding hands and singing koombaya, but it's devolved into a sink for all the grudges, held between forum vets. I like to think that us Mesmers have always been the level headed side of the community, except when I get drunk and triggered obv. Can we please agree upon some semblance of constructive criticism, that doesn't result in pointing at each others' shortcomings over the past 5 years?

>

> Bottomline is: Mesmer's current kit has all the damage (be it power or condi) to successfully execute its purpose in a fight (regardless of game mode). But it lacks the supplemental kit support (backbone?), to actually pull it off in live scenarios (Chaos and not the traitline, +1s, etc). So if you look at it in a vacuum, yea the options are there. You just never get to play the kit as expected, because of lackluster complementation.

>

> Does Mesmer need a damage buff? I honestly think we're fine.

> Do we need a defensive buff? Probably not.

> Do we need massive QoL overhaul? Absolutely!

> As it is now, Mesmer has an auto-immune disease and has to fight against, its own mechanics to succeed.

Going to disagree still. I'd actually say power and condi have the opposite problems. Power has a very, very strong burst still. Power's problem are how generally one trick it is, with comparably little flexibility and reliance on a very predictable burst. It's weapons, sword and greatsword, are kind of mediocre in terms of mobility and defense, if not outright kind of bad. Blurred Frenzy and Illusory Wave are really all the weapons really have to offer, and have zero mobility outside of Mirage proving Mirage Thrust. And because it's glassy and isn't getting mobility or much defense out of it's weapon baseline it's also forced to dedicate most or all it's utilities dedicated to survivability like stealth.

Condition Mirage on the other hand tends to have pretty solid weapons for defense, especially staff but scepter is good as well. It tends to have flexible weapon skills able to more flexibly juggle between skills and combo's compared to such heavy focus on one specific combo. Because it's weapons aren't bad for survivability it also has significantly more flexibility for what it runs for utilities compared Power Mesmer like things like Portal, Arcane Thievery, Illusion of Life if you're a troll like me.

Power doesn't have a damage problem due to Mind Wrack still getting it's job done. And it's in large part due to just how the skill works and scales with additional clones.

With just one clone you can potentially get a large amount of damage out of just a one clone shatter, because while there is a bonus for landing a full 3 clone shatter, it isn't 100% additive the way condition shatters are.

Like just experimenting with the medium target golems on a Berserker amulet I was getting damage numbers like:

Mind Wrack One Clone Burst: 7-8,000 damage total on crit

Mind Wrack Three Clone Burst: 12,000 damage total on crit.

The bonus is there, but just one clone +mesmer is still a very sizable hit.

So it's easier to get large damage numbers from Mind Wrack. Not to mention it's on a 12 second untraited cooldown making is much more spammable.

Meanwhile Cry of Frustration is on a 24 second cooldown, and the damage is 100% additive. A 3 clone Mind Wrack might "only" do 50% more damage, but it's 50% more on what is already a VERY potent, spammable attack. Whereas Cry of Frustration might do 4x it's damage with a full 3 clone shatters, but the damage with 0-1 clone is just absolutely laughable.

Untraited Cry of Frustration with 1 clone is 2 stacks of confusion. With Illusions Cry of Frustration with 1 clone with do 4 stacks of confusion. With Illusions and Ineptitude Cry of Frustration will apply 8 stacks of confusion. And even with any of those you will be hard pressed no matter how much the person wildly spams into confusion to actually get 8k damage out of it. Now if you have 3 clones and 16 stacks of confusion now you're looking at serious damage numbers, but again we're talking about Confusion that has so much counterplay even after it lands, only lasts 3 seconds, requires 3x more set up than Mind Wrack, and has twice the cooldown.

And generally condition mesmer's primary damage skills just mathematically don't compare to other class's damage skills;

Berserker's Corona Burst: 5-6k 7k high heat, 6 second cooldown

Berserker's Refraction Cutter high heat: 4.8k -7.5k damage depending on how many projectiles hit and how many they crit. 0.5 second wind up, 9 second cooldown

Berserker's Death Strike: 4-6k 18 second cooldown 0.75 second wind up.

Marauder's Soul Spiral: 6-8k damage 25 second cooldown traited, 1.5 seconds from start to finish traited.

Berserker's Rapid Fire: 6k damage, 8 second cooldown, 2.5 seconds from start to finish.

Berserker's Maul: 3.5-4k damage, 8s (6.5 traited) second cooldown, 0.75 from start to finish.

Berserker's Barrage: 10k damage, 20 cooldown, 10 seconds from start to finish.

Berserker's Backstab: 3.5k-4.5k damage.

Wizard Pistol Phantasm: 4,500, 6 seconds from start to finish, 20 second cooldown.

Wizard Torch Phantasm: 6,000 (7,000 traited), 12 seconds from start to finish, 30 second cooldown 24 traited.

Wizard's Staff Phantasm: 510 damage, 18 second cooldown, 7 seconds from start to finish.

And these are the hardest hitting skills for condition mesmer. It's only downhill from there. You aren't killing anyone with the 700 damage total in torment from Axe 2 (Seriously this skill should be like 3k in torment due to the cast time)and our auto attacks to fill in the gaps are literally the worst. The damage on phantasms isn't "bad" but they aren't great compared to other class's primary damage cooldowns due to the higher cooldowns. Also the staff phantasm is just the absolute biggest joke in the world.

Edit: I should check condi thief's repeater.

Double Edit:

Condi thief's pistol auto is 800 dps so it's as strong as mirage axe's auto with 900 range.

Shadow Strike into 2 Repeaters which you can do is 12,070 damage on what is practically an 8 second cooldown with 8 initiative. Comboing that with Steal and Spider Venom is 21,200 damage. That's without any confusion damage. It's an additional 2,200 per skill use under confusion with Bewildering Ambush. If you have Illusions and can't afford Ineptitude that's still a 2 clone+mesmer Cry of Frustration. It's fucking nuts how much more damage this build is doing than any variant of condition mesmer. Imagine if Axe 2 did freaking 12k condi damage lol.

> @"bravan.3876" said:

>

>

> > @"viquing.8254" said:

> > Yeah but GS ambush has a way higher hitrate than staff : not a projectile, canalysed.

> > A skill who put 3k+ on 1 sec cast time + high animation isn't a problem at all considering the amount of skills who do the same damage with way less tell. Unless you want mesmer to never have pressure output like when they balance scepter 3 to the same level of necro axe 2 then nerf it.

> > Don't count on weapon skills to condi pressure.

> > Burst come from shatter, core is about condi burst. Mirage should be about sustain pressure thanks to ambushes IMO.

> Btw based on above thoughts i also would recommend to add a condi dmg stat penalty (and maybe a power stat penalty but this one lower than the condi stat penalty because of above thoughts) in addition to the vita penalty suggested in consept C.

"Hey guys what if Mirage had less health, and less power damage, and less, condition damage. That's a good idea right."

Fucking lol

> @"Chaith.8256" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > That you keep completely missing the very clear point of what I'm talking about regarding exceeds is baffling. ... It side steps the entire argument; should this skill have this functionality at all? If exceeds get cooldown reductions that makes them more widely run like they were before the megabalance, then we're in a state where Holosmith has access to multiple utility skills that massively boost it's defensive capacity above what core engineer has access to, in addition to what Core Engineer already has access to and can be combo'd with. And that's not what we should want from holosmith.

>

> No what's really baffling is that you are acting like Exceeds massively boost and stack with core Engineer utilities when you're just going to run Elixir S, Slick Shoes, **since they compete for the same slot.**

>

>

Or, you know, it'd be like pre-megabalance where rifle ran noth Elixir S and Photon Wall. Or prot holo taking spectrum shield, hard light arena and their choice between thumper turret, photon wall, elixir u, like they were doing before people caught on to how crazy good nades holo was.

> @"Kodama.6453" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > That you keep completely missing the very clear point of what I'm talking about regarding exceeds is baffling. It's like someone saying "Mirage detargets are an unhealthy mechanic and the class shouldn't be loaded with this stuff" and me coming in and saying "Yeah but Illusory Ambush isn't run anymore" over and over. It side steps the entire argument; should this skill have this functionality at all? If exceeds get cooldown reductions that makes them more widely run like they were before the megabalance, then we're in a state where Holosmith has access to multiple utility skills that massively boost it's defensive capacity above what core engineer has access to, in addition to what Core Engineer already has access to and can be combo'd with. And that's not what we should want from holosmith.

>

> In my opinion, you are missing what a melee glass cannon spec needs to actually be able to perform.

>

> One of the prime examples for glass cannons in this game have been thieves historically.

> Now look at the tools available for thieves.

>

> Thieves actually have alot of active tools to stay alive, too.

> Tons of evades, both in utility skills and their weapons. Alot of ways to regain endurance to keep dodging. They can have great sustain from a primarily **offensive** trait line like critical strikes, making them heal for a percentage of critical strike damage they deal. Damage reduction effects either from weakness (also applied by deadly arts, another offensive trait line) or getting 33% damage reduction while you are revealed. Then thief also has stealth and teleports to help them reach their target without eating damage while approaching them.

>

> Alot of things holosmith has is also present in thief, even trait lines which are supposed to be offensive for glass cannon builds. They just replace evades with blocks instead.

> Why is that?

> Because if you want to play a glass cannon in melee range, you need active defenses and sustain to stay alive.

>

> If you have no way to defend yourself, no one would play a melee glass cannon. Because you would just immediately blow up before even reaching your target and therefore you are useless. Active defenses and sustain are needed for that archetype to function.

>

>

You'd still have Elixir S, Toss Elixir S, Gear Shield, the cleanse Elixir not to mention more hard CC than probably anything else in the game. Holosmith simply shouldn't be adding more on top of that if the spec is designed to have significantly higher DPS than core.

> @"Chaith.8256" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > You aren't the arbiter of objectivity nor are you a beacon of it. I've never seen you make any contribution to a thread about Scrapper or Holosmith when the two have over performed that ultimately didn't boil down to "We can't change anything that's causing problems. We also need to buff core engineer."

>

>

> > @"Chaith.8256" said:

> > However, Holosmith is pretty far ahead of Core Engineer. It's got way more mobility, sustain, and might stacks - core can get this, but not all together. When it comes to Heat Therapy, this trait is a beast. When staying out of Forge it's healing 195 per second between 3-8 seconds, then 390 per second when venting maximum heat. It's very noticeable sustain compared to core.

> >

> > The mobility Holo gets from master trait & photon Forge is an amazing escape tool. Between super speed escape and Heat Therapy, you basically slap on noticeable sustain and disengage to Core Engi and call it a day.

> >

> > Only thing about Holo that should be potentially changed is mobility and sustain, ideally take a portion of that sustain and pump it into kits. Multi-kit builds should be the focus of next Engi re-work for sure.

>

> > @"Chaith.8256" said:

> > The reason why Holo is trending hard & topping DPS meters in PvP *snip*, look around the room - ex; trait combos like: **Enhanced Capacity Storage Unit & Laser's Edge** with any high damage toolbelt skill.

>

>

>

> @"mortrialus.3062" These are only comments I've made on Holosmith since the nade build was discovered, and you try to mischaracterize me as someone who says Holosmith can't be touched, and must always remain a master of all spec? Buddy all you have in your arsenal is to grossly exaggerate and mischaracterize facts and opinions. My stance on Holo, which I've already said, which you've mischaracterized as 'vaguely reduce sustain': Might stacks, Holo Leap & traited mobility, and heat therapy sustain = all too high. In another thread I talked about how Laser's Edge and ECSU were too strong, before Nade Barrage got nerfed by 20%, now it seems less of an outlier but I wouldn't say unreasonable if it got further nerfs.

Overall we both agree Holosmith's mix of damage mobility and sustain is too high in combination with each other. Where we disagree is what should give, the degrees to which sustain / damage / and mobility should be hit. Hitting holosmith damage hard, while having a slight trim through nerfing or reworking Heath Therapy leaves us in the position that both Engineer elite specs would be low damage high sustain melee fighters. It blurs the distinction between Holosmith and Scrapper and without having more unique niches and rolls, strengths and weaknesses.

Unowen's opinion is that Holosmith should be a side node bruiser and scrapper a team fight bruiser. But when they're both so similar in capabilities it becomes an even more binary choice of which is just always better in almost all situations. Reaper, Scourge, and Core Necro have all rotated around each other over which one is meta, and while there's always going to be a meta, regardless of the meta there's reasons for running all of them because they all have very clear defined capabilities in relation to one an other.

Overall, I'd rather see Holosmith maintain high power damage and mobility as what should separate it from Scrapper and core. Holosmith on a fundamental philosophical design perspective, be a mobile glass cannon and that mandates making it harder and riskier to play. While scrapper is solidified as a tanky, supportive, spec with less damage and mobility. Clear niches and strengths and weaknesses for both. You're never going to balance classes where core and all elites are perfectly well rounded and all have equal capabilities in every way. If that was the case then there's literally no point aside from flavor for adding new elite specs.

> I'm not trying to come in and stonewall discussion, it's just blatently outdated or wrong info is easy for me to pick up on because I know the class well. I'm also extremely objective when it comes to talk about balance compared to you, who says things like this in regards to current day Holosmith:

>

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > Even with the loss of any of the three elite toolbelt skills let's look at what Holosmith provides the player;

> > * More damage through ... several of the Exceed tootbelt skills. <-- Not currently relevant

> > * More active mitigation frames through the use of Utilities such as Photon Wall. <-- Not currently relevant

> > * More straight durability and face tank through utilities like Hard Light Arena and Spectrum Shield. <-- Not currently relevant

> > *** More CC through ... traits. ** **<-- No Holo traits increase CC. **

>

> > That's why, similar to how I proposed Mirage suffer a -300 vitality debuff inherent to the spec, **Holosmith should suffer a -25-33% healing penalty for taking that elite spec.**

>

> 50% of what you say is accurate, which everyone who plays PvP can see and agree with, 50% is cringe, everyone is a beacon of objectivity compared to a person who's saying these above quoted comments

There have been plenty of professions that have seen their meta healing skills eat 10-30% nerfs in effectiveness, either through directly nerfing the healing output or adjusting the cooldown and those professions and skills still remain viable, even remaining the meta healing choice. Holosmith could suffer a global -20%-33% healing penalty as a trade off and it would hurt but it could still perform well under that trade off. It reminds me of when Healing Turret was extremely powerful and Holosmiths insisted Holosmith wouldn't be viable if it had to run Elixir H as a healing skill. And here were are, Elixir H is being run on Holosmith and it's pretty much universally considered a top 3 build if not the best build for ranked and ATs.

Calling the Exceeds bad is also ridiculous. It's like calling Corrupt Boon and Spectral Armor bad because most necros are running Spectral Walk, Flesh Wurm and Spectral Ring. While the exceed healing skill has never been good, or the buzzsaw, and Prime Light Beam is a victim of Megalabalance the rest of them are usable and have seen tons of play historically, even if the meta currently running something else. We're not talking about utilities that are completely unworkable and have never ever seen play. Also point wasn't that exceeds are currently meta and ruining the game but that they shouldn't be defensively orientated in the first place.

That you keep completely missing the very clear point of what I'm talking about regarding exceeds is baffling. It's like someone saying "Mirage detargets are an unhealthy mechanic and the class shouldn't be loaded with this stuff" and me coming in and saying "Yeah but Illusory Ambush isn't run anymore" over and over. It side steps the entire argument; should this skill have this functionality at all? If exceeds get cooldown reductions that makes them more widely run like they were before the megabalance, then we're in a state where Holosmith has access to multiple utility skills that massively boost it's defensive capacity above what core engineer has access to, in addition to what Core Engineer already has access to and can be combo'd with. And that's not what we should want from holosmith.

> @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > > @"Chaith.8256" said:

> > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > You and Chaith always seem to want;

> > > >

> > > > 1. Core Engineer: Jack of All Trades Master of All Trades. Best build in the game do not touch.

> > > > 2. Holosmith: Jack of All Trades Master of All Trades. Best build in the game do not touch.

> > > > 3. Scrapper: Jack of All Trades Master of All Trades. Best build in the game do not touch.

> > > >

> > >

> > > After getting called out for grossly exaggerating facts, it seems like you still can't stop. Any trace of objectivity in this thread has bit the dust.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > He isn't wrong, though. That's what nearly every engineer player thinks because of how overpowered the class has been since alpha.

>

> He absolutely is wrong, no engineer thinks that, and you think engineer has been "overpowered since alpha"? Did you pay attention in most of that at all? Engineer has been bad more often than it has been good. Were not talking thief or Ele here. Or Rev.

Your only contribution to this thread is "Holo will be fine if we just roll back the megabalance" a change that is literally never ever going to happen and also ignores that Holo's mix of super high damage and and no limiters for it's above and beyond capacity for sustain with zero stat investment has been a problem throughout the entire history of the spec.

https://clips.twitch.tv/PluckyImportantSandstormArsonNoSexy

You've also said Holosmtih sucked at MATs. While it's true it didn't have the omnipresence of Scourge, Firebrand, and Herald during PoF it's still had plenty of MAT wins under it's belt. And unlike you I don't hesitate to point out when variants of mesmer are over performing or just toxic in general to the point of frequently butting heads with other mesmer mains about this stuff.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/81789/we-need-emergency-nerfs

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1112123#Comment_1112123

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/470034/#Comment_470034

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1151380/#Comment_1151380

Meanwhile you and Chaith have done nothing but stonewall discussion in this thread, aside from you just saying "Undo megabalance" and chaith giving a vague "It could use a sustain trim". So my description, blunt and snarky, I feel is an accurate if flippant description of how you two behave in any thread about when any engineer spec is over performing.

> @"Chaith.8256" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > You and Chaith always seem to want;

> >

> > 1. Core Engineer: Jack of All Trades Master of All Trades. Best build in the game do not touch.

> > 2. Holosmith: Jack of All Trades Master of All Trades. Best build in the game do not touch.

> > 3. Scrapper: Jack of All Trades Master of All Trades. Best build in the game do not touch.

> >

>

> After getting called out for grossly exaggerating facts, it seems like you still can't stop. Any trace of objectivity in this thread has bit the dust.

>

>

You aren't the arbiter of objectivity nor are you a beacon of it. I've never seen you make any contribution to a thread about Scrapper or Holosmith when the two have over performed that ultimately didn't boil down to "We can't change anything that's causing problems. We also need to buff core engineer."

I was watching Vallun's stream seeing him get 7.5k Pistol Whips on Deadeye. It doesn't need buffs.

Nothing will ever top how the Runes rework and the reworked Rune of Sanctuary creating a broken interaction with Abrasive Grit and Arenanet responded not by disabling or nerfing the new rune but by nerfing Abrasive Grit.

> @"Yasai.3549" said:

> Mirage should be reduced to 2 clones max and IH made baseline.

>

> 2 Dodges can return, and Mirage Cloak is fine for the most part, but the traits that make Mirage Cloak extremely powerful should be adjusted or nerfed (Stuff like Mirage Mantle which gives Protect after Mirage Cloak wears off and Sand Shards which deals Bleed in AoE on Mirage Cloak)

>

>

Whatever we do with Mirage I don't think we want something that will just completely disincentive shattering entirely the way reducing the clone cap would.

> @"Daishi.6027" said:

> -Restore second evade.

>

> -Change Infinite horizion clone ambushes to trigger when the Mirage actives their ambush themselves.

>

> -Remove mirage mirrors entirely and implement a mechanic for flat endurance regeneration that doesn't require you to walk over something.

>

> -Tweak jaunt so you get more uses, but nerf or remove the confusion.

>

> -Restore Chaos Vortex output (maybe restore the might from 2018 too.)

>

> -Ether Barrage (In pvp/wvw ONLY) **Illusion ambushes** apply weakness and vulnerability. (Either of the two conditions can be replaced with chill or cripple.)

>

> -Imaginary Axes (in pvp/wvw ONLY) **Illusion ambushes** apply immobilize. Increase **player ambush** torment from 1 for 4 seconds to 2 for 8 seconds.

>

> This solves a few issues:

> 1. Two handed weapon ambushes regardless of damage type apply damage and substantial pressure. This is consistent and easily recognizable for counterplay.

> 2. Single handed weapons including MH-Sword, but primarily for the condi weapons become utility focused FOR ILLUSIONS ONLY.

> 3. Changing infinite horizon to only trigger when the mirage commits fixes any of the past issues where we had builds double down on defense and passively do damage, this matters even more so when you consider staff and scepter are channeled abilities; and since the normalization of Mirage cloak to be on par with other evades this gives a reasonable punishable window for any adept player to take advantage of.

> 4. Mirrors no longer become a unnecessary tell; while giving the reasonable about of evade a class like this should be afforded. *insert every argument I've ever made regarding the double standards of every medium armor class' on demand access to evasion + the inferiority of illusions vs solid on demand stealth access here.*

>

>

Ether Barrage from the mesmer itself should be buffed in damage. It's kind of always sucked.

As much as I would love to buff condition mirage axe clone immobilization would actually be kind of insane? Like depending on the tuning we could see CI Mirage levels of immobilization lockdown. I think Cripple would be strong without the risk of becoming that oppressive.

Overall I like all of this though.

> @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Chaith.8256" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > > > > > > Its odd that you talk about Holosmiths utilities as if theyre incredibly amazing when the current meta holosmith doesnt run a *single* holosmith utility. Theyre worse than core utilities. So already we can cut more than half of your "what Holosmith provides" bullet points. The truth is that people *severely* overestimate Holosmith. Yes, it provides more damage than base Engineer thanks to enhanced heat capacity unit, and yes, you get a free mediocre kit in the form of photon forge. But that is, simply put, not that much.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > As for your suggestion, lets reword it. "Lets make Holosmith unplayable in PvP". Its only slightly ahead of core engineer, so a nerf this massive, well lets just say it chronos the spec. It also is just poorly thought out. The problem with Holo right now isnt Holo itself. Its that as a result of the catastrophic february 25 patch, damage is far too low. Holosmith is not actually very tanky in a vacuum. But damage is so low even a glass cannon like Holosmith is unkillable, despite actually providing close to no sustain or defense at all (seriously, its got Heat Therapy, which is an average 50-100 healing per second. Thats just ... not much).

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > I think the truth lies somewhere between your view and the OP's.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > You're 100% correct in saying Holosmith utilities are not used at all atm, pure sidegrade/downgrade to core utilites, no idea what OP is talking about there with his 3 bullet points on how good Holo utilities are - OP then goes on to say that Holosmith gains CC through traits, no idea how he justifies talking straight 25% nonsense in his post, I understand how you think he's overestimating Holosmith with some overt hyperbole, cause he is.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > However, Holosmith is pretty far ahead of Core Engineer. It's got way more mobility, sustain, and might stacks. When it comes to Heat Therapy, this trait is a beast. When staying out of Forge it's healing 195 per second between 3-8 seconds, then 390 per second when venting maximum heat. It's very noticeable sustain compared to core.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > The mobility Holo gets from master trait & photon Forge is an amazing escape tool. Between super speed escape and Heat Therapy, you basically slap on noticeable sustain and disengage to Core Engi and call it a day.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Only thing about Holo that should be potentially changed is mobility and sustain, ideally take a portion of that sustain and pump it into kits. Multi-kit builds should be the focus of next Engi re-work for sure.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Most of the Exceeds have seen plenty of use historically, even if it's currently meta to run Grenade Kit, Elixir U and Elixir S. Photon Wall has seen plenty of historic use, Spectrum Shield and Hard Light Arena have seen plenty of use. It's not like we're talking about Distracting Daggers, Impairing Daggers or Crystal Sands that are just 100% unused in PvP. My point is that not only does Holosmith enhance the engineer's capacity for damage and mobility beyond what core is capable of, but also sustain and defense in ways the spec simply shouldn't be doing, regardless of whether the Exceeds, which do see use, are currently meta at this exact moment.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Just because something saw use *before*, doesnt mean its still good. Druid saw a lot of use before. Spellbreaker saw a lot of use before. Scrapper saw a lot of use before. Theyre all not good anymore. As are the Exceed skills. They got nerfed, and now theyre just downgrades to core skills.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The point isn't that exceeds should be bad. The point is that exceeds shouldn't be defensively orientated, especially with how they can and have stacked with Core Engineer's existing defenses to make something even more defensive than core engineer on top of more damage, mobility, and healing. And just because something else is currently better doesn't mean the meta won't shift in a way where they see more play. The exceeds are still usable, we aren't talking about Druid Glyphs or Crystal Sands level bad here.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Actually, in some cases we *are* talking thatb ad here. But anyway, I disagree with your main point entirely. Holo is a melee bruiser. Of course it gets defense-focused utility skills, thats the whole point. You cant expect a melee glass cannon to function well without active defenses.

> > > > >

> > > > > > I never had a problem with, for example, Prime Light Beam. The only change I wanted to see on it before the megabalance was to add self reveal to the holosmith so that they can't blowout people with zero warning from stealth and I'm 100% in favor of adding the damage back to that skill. That's the frame work the exceeds should be operating under; high impact offensive skills with more potent effects at high heat. Not defensive skills that can be layered on top of core engineer's defensive utilities on top of all the damage, mobility, and sustain holosmith provides.

> > > > >

> > > > > Again, you cant expect a melee spec to be a full glass cannon sidenoder. Imagine if Spellbreaker had no defenses. Engineers base defenses are good for the ranged playstyle engineer usually has, but for melee, not so much.

> > > >

> > > > Holosmith isn't a sidenoder, scrapper is. Holosmith is VERY clearly a glass cannon roamer. Why would a class have two specs that accomplish the exact same role?

> > >

> > > You mean like how thief has 2 (3 if we include core) specs that are decap and +1 bots? Or how Necro has 2 teamfighting specs, as does Revenant? Sometimes elite specs do the same thing.

> > >

> > > Eh, how is that clear at all. If you want a melee roamer, they need some way to get ontop of the target quickly. A teleport, or fast long-range dash, to be precise. If they wanted it to be a roamer, they wouldve given it something like that. Hell, the whole Elite Spec is themed around light, couldve given them a lightspeed kick or something.

> >

> > At least with necro there's a clear set of strengths and weaknesses for all three which is a good model of how the core and elite specs should play off each other.

> >

> > 1. Core Necro: Maximum defensive capability with the profession mechanic, profession mechanic is ranged allowing for simultaneous kiting to further maximize the defensive capability.

> > 2. Reaper: Heavy melee damage. Shroud both degenerates faster and is entirely melee, making it riskier to utilize compared to core shroud and further reducing capacity as a defensive tool compared to Core Necro.

> > 3. Scourge: Gains significantly higher AoE condition pressure. Loses dedicated shroud for weaker barrier, making it far less effective defensively than the other two specs. Team barrier gives it some support capacity.

> >

>

> Yes, they all have strengths and weaknesses. As do Scrapper, Core and Holo. But here is the problem. Those weaknesses assumed that there is a difference between glass and bunker, and right now, there isnt. This ironically also means there isnt much of a set of strengths or weaknesses between core necro or reaper. Theyre both equally defensive, Reaper just does way more damage.

Reaper has significantly faster shroud degeneration, 3% per second vs 5% per second. Shroud as a result always lasts a shorter duration than Core shroud making it weaker as a defensive tool. Reaper Shroud is is higher damage at the expense of being melee only, making it both more susceptible to getting counter pressured than Core when it uses it's shroud, not to mention being kited. Reaper is inherently less durable than Core Necro both by mechanics and hard baked into the numbers.

>

> > Regardless of which is meta at any given time, there's always a serious difference in the strengths and weaknesses of any particular version of necromancer and reasons to pick any of them over any of the others. You and Chaith always seem to want;

> >

> > 1. Core Engineer: Jack of All Trades Master of All Trades.

> > 2. Holosmith: Jack of All Trades Master of All Trades.

> > 3. Scrapper: Jack of All Trades Master of All Trades.

>

> Nice strawman. No, what we want is all 3 to be playable. What you want is

> 1. Core Engineer: The good one

> 2. Holosmith: unplayable

> 3. Scrapper: unplayable.

More like

1. Core Engineer: All-rounder. No obvious strengths but no obvious weaknesses.

2. Holosmith: Glass Canon. Higher damage and mobility but weaker sustain. Rushdown style gameplay, kill them quick before they kill you.

3. Scrapper: Tank. Higher defense and support, lower damage and mobility. Bunker gameplay, survive their damage with smart use of excellent defensive skills and wear them down.

> Now, lets say we fixed that. Lets say we improved damage across the board by 30%, at least. All of a sudden, Holosmith can actually die. And quite easily, too. All of a sudden being a glass cannon comes with risk. Then Scrappers advantage becomes relevant. Sidenoding is no longer forced into a game of "knockback chicken until a +1 arrives". The game improves.

>

> What Ive been saying the whole time is that Holos issue isnt an issue with *Holo*, its an issue with *damage being too low in general*.

>

> Edit: as for Prot Holo which you bring up, thats the point though. Prot Holo had to give up a lot of damage for that survivability. Prot Holo didnt really kill anyone in a 1v1. It was just ludicrously hard to kill. It was a dedicated bunker build. Thats fine, strengths and weaknesses apply here still, theyre just flipped.

I've fought Drydude plenty of times. Prot Holo might not have been AS deadly as Tools Holo but it was still consistently a very deadly dangerous threat, would frequently force you off node with it's high pressure, and even in the event of the fight ultimately stalling out screwing up still meant get you'd get picked apart in seconds.

> @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > > > > @"Chaith.8256" said:

> > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > > > > Its odd that you talk about Holosmiths utilities as if theyre incredibly amazing when the current meta holosmith doesnt run a *single* holosmith utility. Theyre worse than core utilities. So already we can cut more than half of your "what Holosmith provides" bullet points. The truth is that people *severely* overestimate Holosmith. Yes, it provides more damage than base Engineer thanks to enhanced heat capacity unit, and yes, you get a free mediocre kit in the form of photon forge. But that is, simply put, not that much.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > As for your suggestion, lets reword it. "Lets make Holosmith unplayable in PvP". Its only slightly ahead of core engineer, so a nerf this massive, well lets just say it chronos the spec. It also is just poorly thought out. The problem with Holo right now isnt Holo itself. Its that as a result of the catastrophic february 25 patch, damage is far too low. Holosmith is not actually very tanky in a vacuum. But damage is so low even a glass cannon like Holosmith is unkillable, despite actually providing close to no sustain or defense at all (seriously, its got Heat Therapy, which is an average 50-100 healing per second. Thats just ... not much).

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I think the truth lies somewhere between your view and the OP's.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > You're 100% correct in saying Holosmith utilities are not used at all atm, pure sidegrade/downgrade to core utilites, no idea what OP is talking about there with his 3 bullet points on how good Holo utilities are - OP then goes on to say that Holosmith gains CC through traits, no idea how he justifies talking straight 25% nonsense in his post, I understand how you think he's overestimating Holosmith with some overt hyperbole, cause he is.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > However, Holosmith is pretty far ahead of Core Engineer. It's got way more mobility, sustain, and might stacks. When it comes to Heat Therapy, this trait is a beast. When staying out of Forge it's healing 195 per second between 3-8 seconds, then 390 per second when venting maximum heat. It's very noticeable sustain compared to core.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > The mobility Holo gets from master trait & photon Forge is an amazing escape tool. Between super speed escape and Heat Therapy, you basically slap on noticeable sustain and disengage to Core Engi and call it a day.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Only thing about Holo that should be potentially changed is mobility and sustain, ideally take a portion of that sustain and pump it into kits. Multi-kit builds should be the focus of next Engi re-work for sure.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Most of the Exceeds have seen plenty of use historically, even if it's currently meta to run Grenade Kit, Elixir U and Elixir S. Photon Wall has seen plenty of historic use, Spectrum Shield and Hard Light Arena have seen plenty of use. It's not like we're talking about Distracting Daggers, Impairing Daggers or Crystal Sands that are just 100% unused in PvP. My point is that not only does Holosmith enhance the engineer's capacity for damage and mobility beyond what core is capable of, but also sustain and defense in ways the spec simply shouldn't be doing, regardless of whether the Exceeds, which do see use, are currently meta at this exact moment.

> > > > >

> > > > > Just because something saw use *before*, doesnt mean its still good. Druid saw a lot of use before. Spellbreaker saw a lot of use before. Scrapper saw a lot of use before. Theyre all not good anymore. As are the Exceed skills. They got nerfed, and now theyre just downgrades to core skills.

> > > >

> > > > The point isn't that exceeds should be bad. The point is that exceeds shouldn't be defensively orientated, especially with how they can and have stacked with Core Engineer's existing defenses to make something even more defensive than core engineer on top of more damage, mobility, and healing. And just because something else is currently better doesn't mean the meta won't shift in a way where they see more play. The exceeds are still usable, we aren't talking about Druid Glyphs or Crystal Sands level bad here.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Actually, in some cases we *are* talking thatb ad here. But anyway, I disagree with your main point entirely. Holo is a melee bruiser. Of course it gets defense-focused utility skills, thats the whole point. You cant expect a melee glass cannon to function well without active defenses.

> > >

> > > > I never had a problem with, for example, Prime Light Beam. The only change I wanted to see on it before the megabalance was to add self reveal to the holosmith so that they can't blowout people with zero warning from stealth and I'm 100% in favor of adding the damage back to that skill. That's the frame work the exceeds should be operating under; high impact offensive skills with more potent effects at high heat. Not defensive skills that can be layered on top of core engineer's defensive utilities on top of all the damage, mobility, and sustain holosmith provides.

> > >

> > > Again, you cant expect a melee spec to be a full glass cannon sidenoder. Imagine if Spellbreaker had no defenses. Engineers base defenses are good for the ranged playstyle engineer usually has, but for melee, not so much.

> >

> > Holosmith isn't a sidenoder, scrapper is. Holosmith is VERY clearly a glass cannon roamer. Why would a class have two specs that accomplish the exact same role?

>

> You mean like how thief has 2 (3 if we include core) specs that are decap and +1 bots? Or how Necro has 2 teamfighting specs, as does Revenant? Sometimes elite specs do the same thing.

>

> Eh, how is that clear at all. If you want a melee roamer, they need some way to get ontop of the target quickly. A teleport, or fast long-range dash, to be precise. If they wanted it to be a roamer, they wouldve given it something like that. Hell, the whole Elite Spec is themed around light, couldve given them a lightspeed kick or something.

At least with necro there's a clear set of strengths and weaknesses for all three which is a good model of how the core and elite specs should play off each other.

1. Core Necro: Maximum defensive capability with the profession mechanic, profession mechanic is ranged allowing for simultaneous kiting to further maximize the defensive capability.

2. Reaper: Heavy melee damage. Shroud both degenerates faster and is entirely melee, making it riskier to utilize compared to core shroud and further reducing capacity as a defensive tool compared to Core Necro.

3. Scourge: Gains significantly higher AoE condition pressure. Loses dedicated shroud for weaker barrier, making it far less effective defensively than the other two specs. Team barrier gives it some support capacity.

Regardless of which is meta at any given time, there's always a serious difference in the strengths and weaknesses of any particular version of necromancer and reasons to pick any of them over any of the others. You and Chaith always seem to want;

1. Core Engineer: Jack of All Trades Master of All Trades. Best build in the game do not touch.

2. Holosmith: Jack of All Trades Master of All Trades. Best build in the game do not touch.

3. Scrapper: Jack of All Trades Master of All Trades. Best build in the game do not touch.

Also pre-megabalance Holo was still unkillable as a bunker. It's not just current damage numbers, Holosmith has always been like this. See Prot Holo.

> @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > > @"Chaith.8256" said:

> > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > > Its odd that you talk about Holosmiths utilities as if theyre incredibly amazing when the current meta holosmith doesnt run a *single* holosmith utility. Theyre worse than core utilities. So already we can cut more than half of your "what Holosmith provides" bullet points. The truth is that people *severely* overestimate Holosmith. Yes, it provides more damage than base Engineer thanks to enhanced heat capacity unit, and yes, you get a free mediocre kit in the form of photon forge. But that is, simply put, not that much.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > As for your suggestion, lets reword it. "Lets make Holosmith unplayable in PvP". Its only slightly ahead of core engineer, so a nerf this massive, well lets just say it chronos the spec. It also is just poorly thought out. The problem with Holo right now isnt Holo itself. Its that as a result of the catastrophic february 25 patch, damage is far too low. Holosmith is not actually very tanky in a vacuum. But damage is so low even a glass cannon like Holosmith is unkillable, despite actually providing close to no sustain or defense at all (seriously, its got Heat Therapy, which is an average 50-100 healing per second. Thats just ... not much).

> > > > >

> > > > > I think the truth lies somewhere between your view and the OP's.

> > > > >

> > > > > You're 100% correct in saying Holosmith utilities are not used at all atm, pure sidegrade/downgrade to core utilites, no idea what OP is talking about there with his 3 bullet points on how good Holo utilities are - OP then goes on to say that Holosmith gains CC through traits, no idea how he justifies talking straight 25% nonsense in his post, I understand how you think he's overestimating Holosmith with some overt hyperbole, cause he is.

> > > > >

> > > > > However, Holosmith is pretty far ahead of Core Engineer. It's got way more mobility, sustain, and might stacks. When it comes to Heat Therapy, this trait is a beast. When staying out of Forge it's healing 195 per second between 3-8 seconds, then 390 per second when venting maximum heat. It's very noticeable sustain compared to core.

> > > > >

> > > > > The mobility Holo gets from master trait & photon Forge is an amazing escape tool. Between super speed escape and Heat Therapy, you basically slap on noticeable sustain and disengage to Core Engi and call it a day.

> > > > >

> > > > > Only thing about Holo that should be potentially changed is mobility and sustain, ideally take a portion of that sustain and pump it into kits. Multi-kit builds should be the focus of next Engi re-work for sure.

> > > >

> > > > Most of the Exceeds have seen plenty of use historically, even if it's currently meta to run Grenade Kit, Elixir U and Elixir S. Photon Wall has seen plenty of historic use, Spectrum Shield and Hard Light Arena have seen plenty of use. It's not like we're talking about Distracting Daggers, Impairing Daggers or Crystal Sands that are just 100% unused in PvP. My point is that not only does Holosmith enhance the engineer's capacity for damage and mobility beyond what core is capable of, but also sustain and defense in ways the spec simply shouldn't be doing, regardless of whether the Exceeds, which do see use, are currently meta at this exact moment.

> > >

> > > Just because something saw use *before*, doesnt mean its still good. Druid saw a lot of use before. Spellbreaker saw a lot of use before. Scrapper saw a lot of use before. Theyre all not good anymore. As are the Exceed skills. They got nerfed, and now theyre just downgrades to core skills.

> >

> > The point isn't that exceeds should be bad. The point is that exceeds shouldn't be defensively orientated, especially with how they can and have stacked with Core Engineer's existing defenses to make something even more defensive than core engineer on top of more damage, mobility, and healing. And just because something else is currently better doesn't mean the meta won't shift in a way where they see more play. The exceeds are still usable, we aren't talking about Druid Glyphs or Crystal Sands level bad here.

> >

>

> Actually, in some cases we *are* talking thatb ad here. But anyway, I disagree with your main point entirely. Holo is a melee bruiser. Of course it gets defense-focused utility skills, thats the whole point. You cant expect a melee glass cannon to function well without active defenses.

Holosmith is a melee bruiser. Scrapper is a melee bruiser. If everything is a melee bruiser then there's no point having different specs, hence why Holosmith has almost always completely muscled out Scrapper aside from immediately after the Gyro rework. Specs should have unique strengths and weaknesses, intended roles, and asymmetry. The idea that everything should be designed in a way where all the specs are all perfectly symmetrical and balanced with the cores with all of them having perfectly equal capabilities in every regard is nonsense. Holosmith should have unique strengths and weaknesses that differentiates it from Core and Scrapper. If the strengths are damage and mobility, then defense and sustain are the logical costs just like Scrapper's logical weaknesses should be damage and mobility in exchange for defense and support.

Also it's a little odd to call Holosmith a melee spec when all of the forge skills, including the auto attack are double melee range or more.

> > I never had a problem with, for example, Prime Light Beam. The only change I wanted to see on it before the megabalance was to add self reveal to the holosmith so that they can't blowout people with zero warning from stealth and I'm 100% in favor of adding the damage back to that skill. That's the frame work the exceeds should be operating under; high impact offensive skills with more potent effects at high heat. Not defensive skills that can be layered on top of core engineer's defensive utilities on top of all the damage, mobility, and sustain holosmith provides.

>

> Again, you cant expect a melee spec to be a full glass cannon sidenoder. Imagine if Spellbreaker had no defenses. Engineers base defenses are good for the ranged playstyle engineer usually has, but for melee, not so much.

You say that like Elixir S alone isn't already more than enough to put Holosmith in the position of best build in the game right now. Also throughout a majority of spellbreaker's life the only defensive utility it was running was Shake It Off.

> @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > @"Kodama.6453" said:

> > > @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > > Chrono was way too dependant on distortion to, too. Mirage is also way too dependant on mirage cloak. Sorry that you think your class gets special treatment, but it shouldn't.

> > >

> > > Holosmith is currently the best class and destroying PvP. It needed to be hard nerfed months ago.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > All I can say is that you should probably go play some engineer to really get a feeling for **how** badly you are dependant on it.

> > Taking toolbelt away from holosmith absolutely kills the elite spec in every game mode, including PvE. Something that is not true for chrono or mirage, since they are still able to perform well in PvE and even still had top performance there.

> >

> > After such a change, holo would be worth as much as a veteran mob.

> > Your hate for the engineer class just makes you blind in this case here.

>

> Mirage doesn't lose a dodge in PvE and distortion isn't needed in PvE either...that's a very engineer player comparison.

>

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > Like I said, Holo should have a -20-33% healing penalty to force it into a high risk high reward playstyle.

> >

> > Not a fan of just removing all of the toolbelt skills, it just doesn't create the sort of deliberate asymmetry good balance works to implement.

>

> How do you explain a healing penalty on an elite spec that gets free healing? lol

Literally slap it on a minor trait like Fatal Frenzy and Impact Savant.