Bast.7253

I've never been that interested in Norn or the spirits, but I have always had interest in Jotun and their backstory. If anything I would have thought Jotun and Norn could share a common ancestor more than Norn and Dwarf or Norn and Kodan.

One interesting thing to note about her visions in A Star to Guide us is not only the fact that she isn't branded when she's impaled in this episode like she was in the visions, but also... in the visions...

You notice the scenery they're at changes each time. Not only the characters around her and her allies, but where the fight takes place. They're on the same structured cliffside with Kralk looming in a valley, but in one she's standing in grass on the cliffside, another she's on a snowy platform, another she's on a rocky desert cliff. Why change the environment like that? Granted none of those places appeared to be under a mountain (again? what was the point of making sun's refuge this sanctuary because it's underground and protected?)… but if it was only about which allies she brings to the fight why change the scenery? Just being artistic? To show that for some reason unknown to us she's factoring in not only allies but strategic places to fight him which are all for some reason not appearing to be set in the desert? It just seems odd going back and looking at it. I checked it out to compare the in-game model of this episode to the visions and noticed not only the lack of crystallization but the random scenery changes as well.

And the fact that none of those scenes in her vision even remotely looked like where we actually fought Kralk could also imply that this is the one outcome she didn't forsee. That perhaps Glint's involvement with her this episode changed the outcome in a way that Aurene couldn't have forseen in those visions, leading us to fighting him where we did.

OR - the vision is somehow reversed. It always ends with her dying, but the actual final battle does take place in an area resembling one of those in her vision.

Probably just the way the artists chose to paint it, but who knows. Could be significant. It's anyone's guess at this point. I'm probably going to wind up being pissed off by the direction they take and feeling robbed of the one character I was most attached to and they'll just shoehorn Caithe into being the solution to everything because Sylvari are the golden race of Guild Wars 2 and the pale tree just becomes some super elder dragon magic infused oracle of dreamworlds that for some reason people have less of a problem with than Aurene even though she's essentially a freaking city. Don't forget to stop by the trading post and cultural armor vendor on the way to talk to our new Elder Dragon supreme answer to everything who will have just as much potential to be written to trivialize threats as much as Aurene could. Nevermind the fact that Aurene could go off and do her own thing and isn't a playable race's capital city.

Ughhhhhh. That would just be so lame. lol

> @"ScottBroChill.3254" said:

> > @"Lord of the Fire.6870" said:

>

> > A) First way is Glints private talk with Aurene in the cave that there is something only the dragons would understand about ascension. Using some fantasy ascension could mean you lose your old body and your spirit will transferred into a new one which a created through the process. In theory you could cheat your way around this and return to the old world in a new body or you tab directly into the process to create you a new body. I personally like this the most its makes in so many ways sense.

>

> Thats what I was thinking. she possibly even tookover kralks body, but she might have to deal with the corruption inside. Maybe get the forgotten to try and cleanse her. I think the fear of aurene getting branded and the hero of aurene dying are part of the prophecy. So this would make that true in a sense.

> >

>

> > Also Kralk woudln't stop until Aurene is dead so let him think Aurene is dead and doing the maximum possible dmg to him would be a smart move and gave us the time he woudln't gave us otherwise.

>

> I put this in a thread! I like this idea becuase his fear was of aurene. If shes gone he might chillax for a min and be vulnerable. Aurene could be in the domain of the lost and be able to cut off his resources to regain power as well.

>

> > C) She use Caits hybrid power of flower and crystal to grow her a new body .(or combine A &C)

> >

> > Actually Caits destiny is a bigger mystery then Aurenes there are so many ways. What she could do make the other Sylvari like her , she could became a new great mother tree, she could heal the old mother tree or/and she could be work as a connection between the the mother tree and Aurene so that Aurene can absorb plant magic.

>

> This is a new theory that I sort of like. Does Aurene have any mordremoth magic? If so this could also support your argument. She could have planted herself across all the sylvari and the tree since theyre all sorta connected in a semi hive consciousness.

>

I've never really liked Caithe and will be highly disappointed if she becomes some replacement for Aurene. I get that they tied her story in way back when but it feels like they're just trying to squeeze her back into the story however they can and it feels a little forced. I get the feeling she's just a favorite among the dev team or something and they just keep giving her all of these important moments. Sure, she ties into everything, but it would feel really forced for me to have her play a bigger role than just being someone else that bonded with Aurene or acts as her messenger.

Honestly, circling back to the pale tree and the sylvari-centric story in general seems like kind of stale after we just had an expansion focused around them and their creator. Bringing them back into the limelight as the answer to our current situation would just feel like one needless circle and we should have just left Aurene out all together. Losing her like this and then using her death as some way to make the pale tree and sylvari the favored elder dragon go-to-plot would be way overdone at this point. I mean first we have Traeherne with his original mission to cleanse Orr right? And his involvement with Zhaitain's death. Then Mordremoth and sylvari in general. And now we're risking making Caithe and the pale tree the answer to the elder dragon on the other side of the world? If they went this route I would hope that they just wrote Caithe out completely so she can't just keep popping up and being so central at crucial points in the story.

Off topic but I've noticed that there seem to be a lot of, at least appearingly, lesbian devs and it feels like we have a lot of lesbian characters central to the story. We had Caithe and Faolin, then Marjory and Kash before they became zolja 2.0. Yet gay male characters get a few lines in a personal story and there aren't any explicitly heterosexual relationships being brought into the story the same way that Kash and Jory or Faolin and Caithe's have. So maybe there's a bit of favoritism in terms of story.

But that's a whole other subject and something others may not have noticed because they don't look for it as much as I do being who I am.

One possibility though unlikely, if they wanted to keep the story focused in Elona, would be that we somehow have to activate Joko's magic in order to help her res with it. But how would we know how to trace the steps, why would we dive back into that at this point, and we still have the issue of Kralk freely recovering negating the progress we made in this episode completely as well as stretching Kralk out for longer than I feel they intend to.

The one thing that I think could allow this Pale Tree theory to tie into it is the vision in Omadd's machine in which before we see the orbs in the All we go through what looks like an image of a white tree/pale tree. Having the title "All or Nothing" may wind up being a play on words in that regard but could just as easily Aurene just becomes an elder dragon and joins the All.

But anyway. We'll find out in hopefully earlier than 4 months and can put some of this theorycrafting to bed. With these relentless cliffhangers, especially this season, it feels like the most eventful thing to do after a playthrough is just spend months theorycrafting only to have the theories be completely wrong or the previous plot fizzle and quickly speed in another direction. (i.e. the Aurene eating joko, getting sick, and then next episode she's just back to normal fighting branded and we're immediately focusing on Kralk again.) Still think having that moment of that episode play into the next and the resolution of Kralk's plot would be a far better direction and far more rewarding than just falling back to the pale tree and sylvari-mordremoth connection. I get that people feel there's some unresolved story there with how the pale tree was left, but I feel like that's something that could be expanded upon after we've taken care of Aurene and helped her fulfil the prophecy. But repeating myself and my reasons in the end doesn't really do anything when it's still just a matter of waiting it out till the next breadcrumb and inevitable end of the world somebody else is dead or dying melodrama plus cliffhanger. That worked a lot better in season 2 when the release schedule wasn't... okay, so are we waiting 3? 4? 5 months? this time? Wait, what happened last episode again? At least they gave us a teaser via Caithe last episode, even if yet again she just kind of appeared out of nowhere seemingly to mysteriously guide the plot the direction they wanted to... yet again....

I wonder how they'll bring Marjory and Kash in next episode or if they'll just stay gone? Or maybe they'll just be branded and dead? Then Taimi will keel over. Then Braham will just off himself in despair having recently made amends with his mother and lost Taimi and having Rox abandon him for new friends. Wow, a suicide. That's the key. That's the bold story decision we've needed in this game to really give it the depth it's been lacking!

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> > 3. Basic logic dictates that you don't make a whole new model for Caithe only for its importance to be thrown away 5 minutes later when the being she's now connected with seemingly dies.

> Vlast... Completely new model, even skeleton and rigging by the looks of it... used for 5 minutes, in a mission you barely get to see it. Even less than Caithe, really.

>

> Not even the first time it's done, either. A lot of story bosses, for example, are short lived unique models.

>

> > 4. Likewise, basic logic dictates you don't spend this long building up Aurene only to kill her off in a penultimate episode of a season thus making everything pointless.

> You mean like how they built up the return of Lazarus over the course of three raids and four episodes only to do a complete 180 and made Lazarus into a meager footnote?

On the note of Caithe, you also have to consider the extreme amount of work that went into Jokos cinematic. Probably even more work than what went into Caithe. I honestly think Caithe was no more than a way for Aurene to show how unlike Kralk she is to comfort the team during that moment. I wouldn’t be surprised if Aurene comes back and it’s not even mentioned again. At most it may simply serve as a signifier that her connection is back during another cinematic when the branding and flowers reappear. Being a momentary teaser that Aurenes back without immediately showing Aurene. In that sense I could see them doing that after we kill Kralk next season and then perhaps pushing Aurenes reintroduction for season 5 to appease this notion that people can’t seem to get over that this episode was somehow a waste of time if Aurene comes back next episode or in general. Because, you know, her resurrection would so cheapen the story even though we already saw visions of her death just the episode before and that somehow didn’t cheapen this episode at all....

lol it’s so pointless debating this logic. It makes perfect sense to me but obviously I’m not the expert writer here!

I doubt> @"PseudoNewb.5468" said:

> Just for clarification, I think there are two different uses for the world 'ascension' in GW lore. One is the ascension as a type of purification to become closer to the gods, but also there is 'The Ascension of Kormir'. Basically, Ascension in that case meant Kormir Ascending to godhood to replace a defeated god. Is replacing an elder dragon the same thing? Aurene is meant to replace Kralkatorric, and I have a feeling the way to do it is similar to Kormir with Abaddon.

>

> So, following this train of thought...

>

> I am aware that 'The Ascension of Kormir' required the blessing of other gods, to happen. First of all, is there anything else Kormir received to finally be able to take control of Abaddon's power? I couldn't find much more info on it, and I haven't played GW1.

>

> Anyways, If we continue following the parallels between the ascension of Kormir and what Aurene set out to do, would Aurene need to receive the blessing from other elder dragons to even be eligible for replacing Kralkatorric? This probably sinks the theory that Kormir and Aurene are following the same path. I just can't shake the idea that the six dragons have the same relationship to Tyria, as the six gods had to their dead world. That because they are analogous, that Aurene will need similar things as Kormir, things appear to not have been received.

>

> This makes me have ideas that are too way out there to be true. But, at least for me it is a fun thought.

I doubt it’s blessing of the elder dragons but as far as I understand Kormir did technically die when she took Abaddons powers. It’s just that she died as a human and immediately ascended to godhood. Kind of like her old self dies and becomes this emotionally distant persona that’s cold and distant due to her newfound level of power and responsibility. They do it in television shows quite often. So I imagine it’s probably something similar for Aurene. She has to die to ascend and that death is the connection and bonds that she has with the people in her current life to some degree. In order to take over the mantle. But as far as dragon ascension specifics I would say less a blessing of the elder dragons and perhaps some general deeper attunement to the all that may involve death and becoming more connected to the all having been a part of the living world, the mists, and the things that lie between. She’s lived and been a part of everything the all encompasses and can now embody a part of it.

I have always enjoyed the symmetry between the gods and the elder dragons and wish there was an explained connection between them at some point. We don’t however have any indication as far as I know that the gods were really a part of the all in their homeland. They may have just been super powerful magical beings in a world full of other powerful magic beings and the humans they brought with them may have just been a small sect of survivors or less “evolved” to an extent. Unless I’m missing some life indicating their direct connection to the all. Is there even anything stating that they have to be replaced to create balance similar to how elder dragons have to be in Tyria? Or was that just a for the sake of Tyria and containing the magic blast with the instance of Kormir and Abaddon?

One possibility I was brainstorming earlier that I like significantly less than the joko theory is that Caithe could just be somekind of empowered vessel that's meant to house Kralk's magic long enough to transport it to Aurene in the mists. I don't like this theory and it makes far less sense than Aurene just coming back to life and taking it herself, but it would at least make more sense than Caithe or the Pale tree taking his magic somehow or us just giving up and magically finding someway to put Kralk back to sleep or spending another season chasing him or some alternative method of killing him and controlling the magic release. I would hope though, if they did this, that we would get an exalted portal stone or sun's refuge style hub to go back and visit her once she becomes this elder dragon in the mists so that we can visit her. And that this instance hub would be a really beautiful and well thought out special area. Who knows, she could wind up taking roost in the very area of the mists where we first entered Kormir's Library and it could even serve to be a starting hub for some future expansion or something. (Still prefer the fantasy of her just reviving, taking kralk's magic, and residing in Kralk's old resting grounds with hopefully some Auric Basin meets Bitterfrost Frontier big tree forest meets Guild Wars 1 version of that area - enchanted glade zone that we can replay and revisit but keeps to its own timeline.

Highlighted in bold the thread-specific part in case you don't feel like reading the rest of my rant.

# To help explain my vision of this:

#

# We have a Dragon Stand/Mount Maelstrom style zone with Kralkatorik's resting spot being the Deidre's Steps/Mordremoth's floating platform area where we fight and kill Kralk in the story - this now dark branded jagged pit of a lair - we kill Kralk, and then Aurene takes his place - and upon taking her crown as new elder dragon this lair phases into this beautiful enchanted glade filled with crystals and crystal flowers similar to Caithe's branding plus the aforementioned assets. Then after we complete the story we could have the outside area be the playable map and meta and then the lair/glade area become like a Sun's Refuge player hub where we can visit Aurene. It keeps her off in her own little part of the world but could also if needed at some point down the line service as a starting off point for a future story direction. Could even tie into festival of the four winds at some point with Zephyrites making a pilgrimage there and new activities. I guess I just choose to see the better side of this story direction than so many other people that just want to watch the world and my little baby dragon burn for the sake of "bold story writing" or constant needless sacrifices for the sake of blowing up the already reality-ending stakes even more. Just SO sick of the doom and gloom and constant sacrifice, and purple crystals, and sand, and bad lightning ground. I don't expect rainbows and unicorns, but I personally feel like this would be a very fitting end to a very long journey that at least momentarily gives this sense of grand reward and reprieve... gives this chance to branch out to something completely new and have it flow organically instead of feeling like we're stuck in this futile chess game with two demented forces that don't even care about winning but only aim to stretch the game out as long as possible.

Then we can go deal with giant Cthulu-esque tentacle mystery dragon and Xenophobic societies and urban slums... and civil war between vampire-esque Lord of the Rings elf looking Kurzicks in spooky thick forests with decrepit goth cathedrals and tribal Luxons… and all of the beauty and darkness that can come with that and be a part of its own separate story arch instead of this long exhausting continuous string of immediately intertwined end-of-reality scenarios that always wind up with sacrifice this-sacrifice that resolution. Or, now that we've had a happy conclusive ending we can branch off to finding out more about Lyssa or the gods and dealing with some other entity that's arisen due to Kralk's mist-meddling that takes us to completely new areas/cultures that aren't in the previous games and have no relation to Elder Dragons. There's so much potential and as much as I enjoy the elder dragon plot and would love to find out more about the deep sea dragon, having this happy resolution with Aurene would be a great way to temporarily halt the elder dragon centric plot for awhile and really branch out. I feel like the writers really want to go crazy, and Jahai Bluffs, this mists enhanced Kralk, the weird trippy fungal area, time-space rifts... it feels like they're really itching to do something out of the box. And what better way to get to that point than to fulfill Aurene's destiny and let her be the solution she was written to be for the last few years?

I'm sorry, I tried bolding this like 10 times and it never worked, and then I changed it to header to attempt to make it slightly larger and it's just been a hot kitten mess. If a mod sees this and feels inclined, I was really just trying to make the header portion bold...

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> Both the spider andthe chak eould be really cool mounts i think. Moreso the chak mount imo since it sorta works as a callback to hot and them being the mysterious creatures they are we couls see some really cool mechanics assosiated with them.

Well speaking from a gameplay perspective - the special ability of throwing acid to dissolve paths wouldn't be all that different from having a roller beetle knock down a wall. And they have been pretty good at reusing those mechanics since they introduced these mounts as its one of the things they've done really well with path of fire.

But it would be pretty lackluster.

They could however burrow as their special movement ability, but then how would that work from a player standpoint. We just let them eat us like a Junundu worm and all's well? It could be a nice little evade window that we don't really have but then how would the movement when not burrowed really differ all that much from the other mounts? Why would we use it?

It's highly possible that, if for some reason we find ourselves back towards the Sulfurus Wastelands, we could wind up actually getting a junundu worm mount. Now that joko is gone and we've kind of moved on from Elona-specific plot we wouldn't have all that much reason to go this direction but...

Junundu could have not only a burrowing mechanic, but also a burrowing long distance mechanic. Sort of like a Mesmer blink or thief shadowstep. We point the area we want to go to, whether it's up on a cliff somewhere or really far in the distance, and our Junundu burrows and then pops back up at that location? It would give us a more controlled version of a jackal teleport but not make the movement so overpowered that we would use it over other mounts - i.e. we can't burrow to something that a junundu wurm wouldn't logically be able to burrow to. Problems with this would be - if allowed to burrow ontop of a cliff would defeat the purpose of a springer - and if needing to burrow across some long inhabitable stretch of toxic wasteland we already have the skimmer to just glide over it.

So, honestly, the only thing that really makes sense for another land mount to me is the spider. As much as I would love to be able to crawl up walls like an actual spider, just having the ability to web yourself to a point on a wall or even on a ceiling would be completely unique. Further on this point -

What if:

The spider mount gets the ability to crawl/web itself to ceilings and we are upside down with the camera following suit giving us an upside down perspective? I'm not sure if that's a technical possibility and it may not be because I can't honestly say that I remember playing a game in which that happened... and sadly don't remember enough from my crappy associates degree in game design to think about the problems that could arise. It would be pretty awesome though. A deep dark cave somewhere crawling on the ceiling looking upside down at everything below you. lol

Spider is the most logical addition outside of underwater for sure though. As much as I would love an Aurene or dragon mount, and as great a job as they've done with the mounts in this expansion and the innovation that they've put into the concept as a whole, I doubt we would ever get a full flight mount as it would devalue pretty much all the other mounts unless there was a huge speed reduction to counter. (More likely if we did it would be a more combat enhanced griffon and perhaps a slightly more enhanced version controls i.e. flaps up like the Griffon but goes much higher per wing flap, more velocity, or more endurance bars.)

Actually, sorry to rant - but here's an idea for an Aurene/dragon mount and one that ties into the masteries and mount theme this season -

We have a dragon mount that can:

Wing flap like the griffon to the same height as a springer - flies across water like the skimmer glides, teleports through the mists similar to the jackal (bit of a stretch to make this one fit), leaps long distances and charges (like the raptor and a bit of a stretch here as well), and is able to break down barriers with fire breath or some other combat ability (like the beetle and a bit of a stretch on this one too so maybe this wasn't as cohesive as I thought lulz). Again, all of these would technically make the other mounts pretty pointless, but it would sort of pay homage to the theme of bonding with Aurene this entire story. Anyway. I'm seriously done now. Spending more time on the forums these days than playing the game. >_>

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> > 2. After the massive failure of last mission, the probability of us killing Kralkatorrik in the next mission is basically zero

> > 3. This means Kralkatorrik will survive into Season 5

> I rather doubt this, personally. At least, if you intend for "will survive" to mean "is still functionally active".

>

> I suspect one of two things will happen, if they don't want to cheapen Aurene's death by bringing her back at the last moment.

>

> 1. We'll find out that the Pale Tree has or is about to replace Mordremoth now that Primordus was put to sleep and her injuries healed in Season 3 (or, more specifically, take in the domains of plant and shadow that Primordus seemed to take in the most of). This gives us a buffer, and allows us to kill Kralkatorrik, which we'd do so using some plan we come up with along the way.

> 2. More likely, we'll find a way to take the very weak Kralkatorrik and put it to sleep. It isn't the wanted ideal (we'd have opposition from folks like Almorra if she survived that third platform blast), but it'll be what's done.

>

> This would put an end to the Kralkatorrik plot, and allow us to finally go into something new.

>

> Season 5 being a continuation of the Kralkatorrik plot makes *no sense* to me. For two reasons. First, why split the seasons. Second, why kill Joko - a figure loved by veterans and is far more entertaining than an personality-less Elder Dragon, so fast if we're going to spend three times as much time on Kralkatorrik (I am assuming Season 5 will be 6 episodes too). And thirdly, if Kralkatorrik isn't the focus of the majority/whole of Season 5, why not extend Season 4 to be 8, or 10, or whatever episodes long?

>

> > That makes even less sense given that they would still have their teams working on S5 map locations, which means we would see those changes on the map long before we see the next expansion map updates.

>

> Unless the expansion team is working on Season 5 and the LW team moved on to the project after that instead, I don't think they began work on Season 5 until around when A Star to Guide Us was launched.

>

> > @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> > Because Season 4 was ultimately not about killing Kralkatorrik, but rather, about getting Aurene to the point she could kill Kralkatorrik, and replace him.

> >

> > The last episode of season 4 will likely have Aurene show back up alive at the very end as the season cliffhanger ending.

>

> Not only would that cheapen her death, but I would argue Kralkatorrik has indeed been "the focus" of Season 4. Though we took a two-episode detour for Joko (instead of making him the proper focus as he should have been), Episode 1 began with Kralk, and we went full on into it with Episode 4.

>

> Besides, if Aurene comes back so soon, and we don't kill Kralkatorrik in Episode 6, then Season 5 will also be about "getting Aurene to the point she could kill Kralkatorrik, and replace him". Because killing Kralkatorrik is part of getting her to the point of being able to replace him.

Who does it cheapen her death for? It cheapens the death for YOU and it might for other people, but it isn't some set in stone universal notion that it cheapens her death or this latest episode. It doesn't just immediately devalue the experience for everyone.

To me, it would cheapen our entire experience with her to have her not resurrect. It would cheapen the weight of this whole prophecy and our involvement in it, the bond that we formed with her, and it would cheapen Joko's death as well as Ogden's mention of his death being part of the prophecy if his death and her consumption of his magic doesn't play a part in her resurrection. I get that people won't to nitpick every little detail about the technicalities of his lichdom, but again.. we don't know how he became a lich to begin with or when he obtained that magic. We don't know what his FIRST death was like. Perhaps it's the exact same experience that Aurene is going through now. I actually really liked Joko in this game, and to have his death play no part in Aurene's prophecy as stated per Ogden and have some significant impact on her resurrection would just further instill that his existence was merely fan-service and something that Arenanet wanted to include because we were going to Elona. If THAT were the case, I'm sure there were a dozen other ways to handle his departure or defocus from the story. There would be so much more value to me in the grand sum of the story so far to have it playout like this.

Your other alternatives? This entire time all we needed to do was wait for the pale tree to heal so she could take on the role of elder dragon and then we're just free to kill Kralk with no consequences? Didn't you mention many many threads ago that it wouldn't matter anyway because Aurene and Vlast were meant to replace Zhaitan and Mordremoth and it didn't matter that Aurene only replaced Kralk because we still needed to fill those roles as per the vision in the Elon Riverlands exalted city? But now all of a sudden it's all about just replacing one elder dragon so we keep it at an even 3? How would the pale tree suddenly being shoved into the role of elder dragon making Aurene's existence practically pointless not cheapen the story? And why would Aurene's death be a necessary part of this? Because she telepathically shared some secret with Caithe and Caithe passes it onto the Pale Tree and suddenly everything's fine?

And now that Kralk is injured and has the ability to go back to sleep, how exactly would we force him to go back to sleep? He's an injured animal and animals are most dangerous when they're cornered and injured. He's in survival mode now, and we had a taste of that when he blasted us with three elder dragon orbs worth of magic and Balthazar's. What's going to stop him from recuperating in some part of the mists where he can just gobble up some more cosmic dimensional juju?

To each their own, but I just don't see this story ending any better way or paying off where've been anymore than Aurene's Joko magic giving her the ability to come back. Even if it's after we finish Kralk off knowing it's the right thing to do even if it means possibly destroying Tyria - to save the mists and everything else threatened by him. We honor a fan favorite character whose entire existence and reign of terror would have been part of a grand prophecy that we got to be a part of and see to completion. We as player characters get to be a part of this years long story that ironically involves nourishing and fostering an elder dragon in direct contrast to when the game was released and we killed Zhaitan. Aurene McGuffin or whatever you've decided she is during the progress of this story, could cease to be our little pet dragon and ascend to be her own entity separate from our adventures that doesn't fix our problems for us. And why couldn't we have both anyway? Aurene replacing Kralk and the Pale Tree replacing Mordremoth? I really don't see how it would benefit the story to suddenly decide to focus yet again on the pale tree, Sylvari, spawn of Mordremoth or how it would be any different from having the pale tree be an elder dragon - the leader essentially of a playable race's city - a being that in the original game gave us visions that guided us throughout our struggle with Zhaitan... to Aurene… a dragon that can ascend and live her own non-meddling elder dragon existence in her own little part of the world where she isn't immediately accessible to humans, norn, charr, asura, and sylvari. At that point, wouldn't Sylvari just be able to ask "mommy elder dragon" for a power boost anytime they needed a little extra help? It just feels like it would create a huge imbalance among the races and almost cheapen Heart of Thorns to suddenly be in such direct lineage with an elder dragon... even if this new elder dragon is the cool easy-going boss you've always wanted and lets you have "free will."

I mean just think about it, how would that be ANY different than the role Aurene has played this entire time? Except now instead of the commander receiving visions from Aurene - which could stop when she becomes an elder dragon as the bond is no longer necessary - we have an entire race of people that's in direct contact with an elder dragon?

I really don't get how people aren't seeing there is only one truly logical way out of this mess or the overall benefit.

To counter my own argument here, Aurene coming back in this way and becoming an elder dragon would make future elder dragon plots potentially more challenging, but it would be far easier and probably more cohesive to develop entirely new storylines around those elder dragons than it would be to find some brand new solution to the one we currently have. - Whether that be putting him back to sleep somehow... making this entire season and work up dismally bleak.. or McGuffin, as you love to say, make the pale tree this easy fix bandaid solution that is tossed in to progress the story. (Which again, does nothing to pay tribute to Aurene or the time we've spent with her.)

Sometimes the simpler solution is the right one, and there's plenty of beauty in this simpler solution whether you want to discredit it for the sake of one MOMENT in ONE EPISODE or not. It's there, but you have to look at it in a completely different light. It just feels like you're trying to overcomplicate this story when it doesn't need to be and if a different path is chosen than this one I have far more fear for the future of this story than I ever did with Aurene - attachment and emotional bias aside.

> @"Ignigknawt.7869" said:

> What is it with people having such an inferiority complex while playing this game? :/

Not sure I understand what you're getting at.

I never really bought the arachnophobia bit form them to be honest. I've seen way scarier things in this game and we've had a spider in a fractal, a giant spider that carries us around with them in a story mission when unlocking sun's refuge, and countless spider bosses throughout Tyria. They have no problem implementing them as enemy designs but all of a sudden don't want to release them for mounts because people would be creeped out by them?

That makes zero sense.

I think they decided to save it for a later release, personally. Whether that's the "surprise" mount left for this season or not I have no clue, and I'm not sure how they would tie it in unless we went to a zone that would have a lot of spiders/cliffs or some indigenous population that relied on them for travel. I could certainly see us going back to the blood legion homelands and discovering some pit from where Kralk was sleeping all those years. Perhaps we go sprelunking into that area in search of something to help us in a fight against him and that's what leads us to needing this spider mount. People may not buy this theory but in Guild Wars 1 all we saw was his back, and in guild wars 2 he's the size of a mountain. So he had to have been at least somewhat burrowed into the ground leaving a chasm in his wake.

But anyway, another possibility is the Rhino, but outside of carrying additional people I fail to see what benefit the mount would have. It would be a great addition, but I wonder how they would even make the functionality of that mount considering all of the masteries involved like sharing health and the new one that ejects us.

Another possibility is Aurene or some way that she brands us or bonds with us and we can use her as a super griffon?

Underwater mount is needed, but at this point in the game it wouldn't be extremely necessary and what would cause us to suddenly wind up in a zone with so much underwater content after this latest episode?

To the point: I think a spider is highly likely at some point. I'm not sure if that's the next mount that will be released, but I certainly don't think it's as off the table as they implied.... especially due to the Arachnophobia bit. Who knows, perhaps Draconis Mons oakheart reach tech came as a result of the work that went into this "scrapped" spider mount?

I'd personally still love to see some more mounts branch away from their original concept. They haven't taken them as far as I thought they would. We have the gecko, the lion griffon, the 9 tailed fox, the armadillo, and I guess you could say the orca skimmer but other than those nothing has really deviated that much from their original. Nothing crazy like springers as golemn suits or wyverns (though a different skeleton) for griffons, or panthers/tigers for jackal, or vinetooth modrem creatures for raptors or roller beetle.

Still holding out hope for a lot of this. And the video they had a long long time ago of them playtesting on an actual firebreathing fighting wyvern gave me hope that someday we could actually reach that point. Was hoping we could reach that point with Aurene, at least in a story instance, but at this point who knows what their plans are in the long run. By this time next year we could literally be riding flying sharks with rockets on their backs and rainbows for wings and it wouldn't be any crazier than a mists devouring time-space altering megachin dragon.

> @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> > @"cptaylor.2670" said:

> > I really don't see Kralk lasting past next episode though. Why would we spend another full season chasing him again,

> Who says we spend the whole season chasing him? His death would probably occur half way, and then we spend the remaining half of the season dealing with whatever that triggers for the next arc/expansion

But then why call it "season 5" instead of just stretching season 4 to finish that plot? The structuring would be a little strange if they did that. Wouldn't be much of a conclusion to season 4. And would give them even less time to spend on season 4 setting up the expansion versus allowing the entirety of season 5 to lead up to the expansion assuming there is one.

> @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > Especially with two very obvious portal gaps in Jahai heading westward. Why go there, I dunno given the plot, but it seems like they planned it. Otherwise, why make them?

> Several reasons

> 1. We aren't getting an expansion after S4

> 2. After the massive failure of last mission, the probability of us killing Kralkatorrik in the next mission is basically zero

> 3. This means Kralkatorrik will survive into Season 5

> After the massive damage he took this last episode, he is probably going to retreat back to "Mount Kralkatorrik" to try to heal up, giving us a little bit of time to find a new way to beat him. I could easily see the first 3 episodes of LWS5 being a continuation of the Kralkatorrik plot.

> There's also enough space west of Kourna for three map

> * Marga Coast + Sunward Marches + Venta Cemetary

> * Sulfurous wastes + Dynastic Tombs + bottom part of Joko's Domain + Gate of Desolation

> * Mount Kralkatorrik itself for the final battle

> This assuming they don't make maps on the Barbarous Shore, the other half of Vabbi, the Hidden City of Ahdashim, the lower part of Istan.

>

> > @"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:

> > _If_ we're reading anything into the map changes- and I'm still not sure that's a good idea- my bet would be that we're looking at the first expansion map they'd begun work on.

> That makes even less sense given that they would still have their teams working on S5 map locations, which means we would see those changes on the map long before we see the next expansion map updates.

I really don't see Kralk lasting past next episode though. Why would we spend another full season chasing him again, especially when he's already so injured? That just gives him more time to recuperate from the damage we've done to him.

And as to Konig's point - with Kralk going all the way to Thunderhead Keep it seems like if they were planning on using those portal areas in Sun's Refuge they would have done so before we went to Thunderhead Keep. What benefit would we have at this point of going to any of those areas other than your finding Shiny theory. The areas connected to them in Guild Wars 1 wouldn't really move the plot forward or give us anything new to help us with Kralk. I could see us moving to one of those areas if we finish Kralk off, like the big purple mountain, but it kind of feels like that ship sailed with this latest release fighting him in the bottom of a random mountain underground... where we were supposed to be safe from him to begin with but obviously with this latest episode and his mist traveling ability doesn't really mean anything. We developed that base solely because it was safe from Kralk but obviously the whole underground thing doesn't matter anymore, so why revisit that just to wind up chasing him to some other surrounding map that doesn't provide us with anything to help defeat him? Joko's dead, so we don't have anything involving awakened in those areas that we would need to follow up on.

And chasing him to some big purple mountain that he might have went to doesn't really make any sense anymore because he can just mist rift his way half a continent away. At least revisiting his original location would make sense and may provide us with something that can help us defeat him. I don't know. I think of all the areas that location makes the most sense right now. Why was he there to begin with? Perhaps there's something there that will help him heal faster and we chase him there to make sure that he doesn't recover?

It's honestly such a mess at this point that it's anyone's guess. And if Aurene doesn't come back then there's really no point in even dealing with Kralk anymore because we already know Tyria will be destroyed if we do kill him... So either we kill him regardless and face the consequences or we spend another season chasing plan b. This life or death end of the world constant cliffhanger crap just really doesn't sit well with me when we have to wait three or four months to find out what happens. It's such a jarring experience from a consumer perspective and I honestly just wish we could be done with Kralk and spend a season floating around to random areas like Season 3 and focusing on some of the many open-ended stories that haven't been able to be explored. Something that doesn't always go with the episodic linear "oh no this character is dying or are they" "the planet is collapsing but is it really" cliffhanger non-sense. Getting some actual closure every now and then is nice and I'm sure they could still tie in an overarching story to lead into an expansion if they're still planning on making those at this point.

I mean at this point we could just wind up killing Kralk and spend an entire season exploring a Tyria ravaged by Jahai-style time-rifts or full on time travel. How did we go from classic Elder Dragon chasing plot to rampaging disguised gods and cosmic-scale prophetic space-time altering mega elder dragons and prophecies within prophecies within prophecies. If Aurene stays dead and we find another solution it's really just going to feel like they're honestly just winging it and making story decisions the moment they start writing the episodes. Is this part of the reason they had such a huge re-organization dilemma during the making of Kourna? Because they just decided halfway through that they were going to set us on this path of mist-traveling Kralk, prophecies negated by death, and legions of ghosts from every dimension. Where does the story even go at this point... I can't even imagine how exhausting it must be from a narrative perspective...

Anyway, off topic. Most logical to me still seems to be the homelands, no matter when the map was updated. A deviation from their original plan could explain the discrepancies as far as the map updates go. And there really isn't much of a point in even staying in Elona at this point with Joko being dead and Kralk being able to pop up wherever he pleases. The only thing working against that right now is that Kralk could potentially be too weakened to do it in his current state leaving him closer to where we fought him this time, but even that would be a pretty weak excuse. Also, the area under Lab Cliffs is just water and grass. Why would we even need to go there?

> @"Poormany.4507" said:

> > @"cptaylor.2670" said:

> > 1. Taimi's involvement led us to a machine that put two elder dragons to sleep in one episode - Good thing that Mary Sue's already dying. Let's speed up the process.

> > 2. Kashmeer gave us all illusions to look like Joko's generals which led to us overthrowing Balthazar, as well as the initial line that led us to revealing that Lazarus was Balthazar. I'm sure there's lots of other things I'm missing but she's a major Mary Sue and needs to die too!

> > 3. Kashmeer's lover that's a necromancer whose name I can't remember that made that bone bridge way back when before we got Aurene's egg in Season 2? That Mary Sue is the reason we've reached this point of the story. Kill her off immediately. (Oh, that's right.. her name's Marjory)

> > 4. Faren - even admits to being the greatest and answer to every problem in Tyria - Mary Sue - get rid of this one fast.

> > 5. Braham - has a magical scroll or bow or something now and shows up through the mists in the middle of abandoned ruins of Istan from a continent away in the North - Also has a ghost mother that tells us when to move the plot forward - Mary Sue. Just get rid of him, his ghost mother, his enchanted scrolls, and his convenient shield bubbles when buildings are collapsing on us.

> > 6. Gorrik and his intricate knowledge of insects made us realize that the scarab plague wasn't nearly as dangerous as it could have been. Deus ex machina! Kill him off quick!

> > 7. Jenna - this one is the worst. Shields an entire city full of people, creates illusions of elder dragons, talk about a real Mary Sue. This one shouldn't last longer than two more episodes or the integrity of the story will be undone and become nothing but complete failure in the industry moving forward.

> > 8. Rhytlock, - mary sue, magical swords from gods that he just lets us borrow whenever we want to kill something that takes a little extra effort. Dives into the mists and comes back after being gone for ages and has new stronger abilities. What a Mary Sue. We can't have characters just coming back whenever they feel like it. It doesn't make any sense and lessens the impact of them being gone in the first place. Easy, cheesy writing. Obviously we should get rid of him before he does anymore damage to the story.

> >

> My Predictions:

> 1. Probably gonna be golemized and stay on our team

> 2. & 3. Possibly going to get branded by Kralk

> 4. Nah, he's too great comic relief

> 5. Probably gonna be ice crystalled by Jormag

> 6. Maybe after he golemizes Taimi

> 7- AKA Lyssa

> 8- Could betray/leave PC in Blood Legion HL episode or could keep going along being OP while keeping secrets from everyone

On a serious note:

1. Probably.

2 and 3. Doubtful, but it wouldn't surprise me if they were as quickly as characters are dying these days. Who knows, maybe they could get heir branded reversed if the plot went a specific way. Still doubtful though. At worst they'll just become the next Zolja and permanently disappear from the story.

4. Canach is all the comic relief I need! Faren is alright. Maybe we can replace Marjory and Kash with a male couple now and just have him and Canach for some even more taboo relationship than just two human females!

5. Don't really care, and haven't ever cared what happens to Braham. I don't know why they put enough focus on him to even redeem his personality flaws from last season. Was it worth it?

6. Maybe.

7. Would actually make sense and has been speculated by some. Could be explained as easily as anything else could at this point.

8. I honestly like Rhytlock, but I still don't see the difference from him handing us the one weapon that can kill Balthazar to Aurene swooping in to help or eating Joko. Or the difference between those and Taimi inventing a machine to put two elder dragons to sleep. The only difference with Rhytlock being that he's undoing the mistake he made of freeing Balthazar and the fact that he already had the sword. Still though? Why so much hate on Aurene for the parts she's played that could just as easily be written to make as much sense as the other two being "easy solutions."

It's anyone's guess what's next though. Taimi is dying, blish is dead, eir is dead, Zolja is basically dead, Marj and Kash have vanished this season. Aurene. We have an elder dragon threatening on a cosmic level, god dying, tyria is getting destroyed either way at this point. I mean at this point the gods really could come back and transport us to some other planet and it would just be another day in the life of the player character.

I wonder what the point of it all is though. Killing off everyone and just replacing them with characters like Zafirah that just appear in a random episode for the sake of appeasing people that were wondering what happened to Balthazar's followers. What's next? We kill off Taimi for good and replace her with some random Zephyrite? It's just hard to become attached to any of the characters anymore. They're highly involved one episode and dying or dead the next, or just missing for half a season. Or dying, made pact leader to distance them from the story, and then suddenly brought back in. I guess Logan at least makes sense with Kralk and Destiny's Edge. But still... the only consistencies really are Rox, Braham, and Canach. And Rox is clearly being set up to do her own thing with her new tribe leaving Canach as the only consistently likable character.

I wonder how long until Canach gets mowed down with a weedwacker to force some kind of reaction onto our player character whose only job is to be this prism that just reflects what's happening around them while constantly overcoming end of the universe circumstances due to everyone around them sacrificing themselves.

Is it possible to have a compelling story in this context without constant sacrifice? I'm not a writer so I wouldn't really know. People don't want Aurene saving the current story but what is a lowly mortal commander supposed to do against these odds otherwise?

That's kind of the underlying point of this blatantly sarcastic post. That people are just tossing around catchy phrases without considering whether or not it is even applicable.

The other point is that we have dozens of other characters whose existence or actions have made the story trivial at some point or another and that at times it's just a necessary step to moving the story along. If we start killing all these characters off simply because they gave us an "easy way out," eventually we would have nobody left.

1. Taimi's involvement led us to a machine that put two elder dragons to sleep in one episode - Good thing that Mary Sue's already dying. Let's speed up the process.

2. Kashmeer gave us all illusions to look like Joko's generals which led to us overthrowing Balthazar, as well as the initial line that led us to revealing that Lazarus was Balthazar. I'm sure there's lots of other things I'm missing but she's a major Mary Sue and needs to die too!

3. Kashmeer's lover that's a necromancer whose name I can't remember that made that bone bridge way back when before we got Aurene's egg in Season 2? That Mary Sue is the reason we've reached this point of the story. Kill her off immediately. (Oh, that's right.. her name's Marjory)

4. Faren - even admits to being the greatest and answer to every problem in Tyria - Mary Sue - get rid of this one fast.

5. Braham - has a magical scroll or bow or something now and shows up through the mists in the middle of abandoned ruins of Istan from a continent away in the North - Also has a ghost mother that tells us when to move the plot forward - Mary Sue. Just get rid of him, his ghost mother, his enchanted scrolls, and his convenient shield bubbles when buildings are collapsing on us.

6. Gorrik and his intricate knowledge of insects made us realize that the scarab plague wasn't nearly as dangerous as it could have been. Deus ex machina! Kill him off quick!

7. Jenna - this one is the worst. Shields an entire city full of people, creates illusions of elder dragons, talk about a real Mary Sue. This one shouldn't last longer than two more episodes or the integrity of the story will be undone and become nothing but complete failure in the industry moving forward.

8. Rhytlock, - mary sue, magical swords from gods that he just lets us borrow whenever we want to kill something that takes a little extra effort. Dives into the mists and comes back after being gone for ages and has new stronger abilities. What a Mary Sue. We can't have characters just coming back whenever they feel like it. It doesn't make any sense and lessens the impact of them being gone in the first place. Easy, cheesy writing. Obviously we should get rid of him before he does anymore damage to the story.

> @"TheGrimm.5624" said:

> > @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said:

>

> > Bringing her back in the very next episode very much cheapens her death in All or Nothing. It would do away with the tension and desperation that the heavy loss hit us with far too quickly.

> >

> > In my opinion, the best time to bring her back is Season 5, episode 2 or 3. That gives us a couple episodes to grieve, deal with fallout of the failure, start to scrap together a new plan that nobody believes will work (as key pieces to exploit Kralkatorrik's weakness are now gone), and start toward Asencion ourselves in Season 5 (this seems to be getting hinted at).

> >

> > Then, a couple episodes into Season 5, we get some real hope again.

>

> Seeing it the same way. Last eposide of this sesaon is building on that we failed bit, which is setup for the next season. Next season is us recovering and getting Aurene back. That leads us to the next expansion which is Kralk focussed, us keyed up and looking for payback, and finishing the fight with Kralk in the expansion. Classic writing technique, tear them down, give them a reason to go on, letem fight, have sammiches. No they gave us too many paths out already between all the energy absorbtions, ascensions, god/liche devouring and forsight of future events. Plus remember Bath's follower clueing us in that she could feel Bath when she encountered Aurene. Hence those energies weren't just consummed and disposed of, they remain a part of the Aurene. Not to mention the whole passing in and out of the spirit realm. But it was a great ending even if it left some of my guildmates mad. Shows that it was impactful when people get mad at story instances. At least IMO.

Oh joy, dragging Kralk out for another living season AND an expansion. Didn’t they say Kralk was being resolved this season? I remember them saying something about Kralk and Joko.

I really don’t see them dragging Kralk out for a full season AND an expansion. I’d rather him be finished next episode seeing as he’s already on the verge of death anyway. Would be a little anticlimactic to just give him a full season and an expansion to recover from this encounter, especially when the only reason we rushed this attack is because Glint said that Kralk is doing too much damage to the mists. What then during this season and expansion? He just keeps roaming around recovering and devouring the fabric of reality for us to all of a sudden be able to do what we couldn’t do this episode or the next?

> @"ugrakarma.9416" said:

> Something so explicit and "easy" will become a very poor narrative. If it is so simple("hey its all fine, remember she had joko powers") to ressuscitate aurene, so why killed it? i doubt its goes that way.

The character making the assumption she can just be brought back wouldn’t happen because the character doesn’t think like the player. And as far as the player goes the reason for her death in this episode can be explained just as well as changing direction and finding some other solution out of thin air.

As to joko never actually dying, I believe Arenanet said in Guild chat that Aurene was a corpse? But what did they say specifically? Because Joko was undead and technically a corpse.... Besides, the screen cuts to black as soon as we see Aurene, it’s probably the same amount of time that passes between when we defeated Joko in Kourna and when he started getting back up and reassembling.

We also don’t know when Joko got his lich abilities or how. He could have got them pre-death meaning that whatever his magic is would only make him as a living being susceptible to one death. There is too much we don’t know about Joko and his magic to discredit the idea that Aurene is capable of coming back with it.

> @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said:

> > @"cptaylor.2670" said:

> > > @"Alimar.8760" said:

> > > > @"Jaunty.6018" said:

> > > > I hope they don't bring her back. It would ruin so much of the emotion. This episode added a sense of boldness and fragility that I haven't felt in awhile in this game, and now I'm actually interested in the writing again. I think if this is the real end for Aurene, we'll see a lot of players appreciating Path of Fire more and playing through the living story content again just to spend some more time with our special little scion.

> > >

> > > It will really depend on how they handle the next few episodes. If they immediately bring her back (In my opinion) make it feel like this episode was filler because 'Why kill her if you're just going to bring her back in 3 months?' Character deaths should be used sparingly and if it is used, bringing people back should be even more sparingly. Mostly because you remove the emotional risk of death if characters have obviously perceived plot armor. Again, it really depends on how it's handled. Personally I want her to come back, but I wouldn't mind if it's a year from now so that we truly believe she is dead before bringing her back.

> >

> > So if she comes back next episode then this episode is somehow deemed a cheesy filler and a waste of time? Why?

> >

> > Honestly, with all this constant talk about how bringing her back next episode would be cheesy writing and make this episode pointless, I'd rather them just end living story all together. Obviously everyone is an expert writer, so why even bother trying?

>

> Bringing her back in the very next episode very much cheapens her death in All or Nothing. It would do away with the tension and desperation that the heavy loss hit us with far too quickly.

>

> In my opinion, the best time to bring her back is Season 5, episode 2 or 3. That gives us a couple episodes to grieve, deal with fallout of the failure, start to scrap together a new plan that nobody believes will work (as key pieces to exploit Kralkatorrik's weakness are now gone), and start toward Asencion ourselves in Season 5 (this seems to be getting hinted at).

>

> Then, a couple episodes into Season 5, we get some real hope again.

If someone loses their child in the supermarket for 10 minutes and then finds them again it doesn’t cause them to unfeel that 10 minutes they spent worrying about whether their child was coming back. They still learn the valuable lesson of keeping a better eye on their children and gain more appreciation for their child in general. So I still don’t see the logic behind implying her resurrection would negate her death completely.

You know, with all these time rifts going on, whose to say we aren’t in some nightmare fractal of Kralks doing and that fight either didn’t happen at all, didn’t go that way, or just didn’t finish because he trapped us in a time rift?

> @"Svennis.3852" said:

> Honestly I’ll be disappointed if the plan is for Caithe to just die. Her entire life will have been tragedy and sacrifice for others.

>

> I suppose it’ll match the rest of her character journey, but still. What a let down.

That would pretty much be par for the course for the story though wouldn't it? Blish lasted three episodes before he was sacrificed? If Aurene is now dead then her entire existence as well as her family was just to be one sacrifice after another. Traeherne was a sacrifice though I never really cared for him. Didn't Tibalt sacrifice himself on Claw Island so we could get to safety or something? Can't remember.

And at least Caithe had a chance to fall in love and had a partner. Poor little Aurene was born with people already after her, has been kidnapped, had her brother murdered before she even got to meet him, had most people treating her like crap because she's a dragon, and then winds up dying despite the prophecies of her dead mother before she even had the chance to grow up. Talk about a life of tragedy. Would much rather Caithe go than Aurene.

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> > @"Talindra.4958" said:

> > She WILL stay dead.

> > I mentioned in my other post. It IS a short cut solution in exchange for peace and end of this LS. Lazy and boring way to end.. I have no emotion as a story reading or player as look guys.. all you gave been play up to now.. it's nothing... We bring you the end. Our solution for you for peace.. is nothing.

> > We will move on now that elder dragon is back to his place .. he won't cause anymore chaos because he is no longer feeling a threat anymore.

>

> Thats a naive way to look at it. First anet will most likely bring the character back because they dont have it in them to find a better way to handle this and them being able to ressurect has been setup since ep 3, but also its naive to think that the dragons destroy and feed only because they feel threatened. It was stated tha he has begun devouring the mists and if he grows too powerful he can devour reality. Its not something they do out of spite or anything, its simply something they do.

>

> But i agree with the op, im scared how said character would impact the story and future big moment if they can come back and help us finish the job. I feel like after that mosts danger will be nothing compaired to our power. Then again if the character comes back im not gonna compain that its an asspull because it was setup.

>

> Tho ill complain because throught this season death has to some extent been reduce (tho not much since dead characters stay dead and are mostly left alone)

>! She's been our best weapon so far because she's been destined to become an Elder Dragon. She hasn't just been tagging along this entire time as a pet, she's following the path we've been walking because we've been guided by the same intertwined destiny. We're BOTH part of the prophecy that led us to this point. Once that prophecy is completed, why is there any reason to believe that she will still be a weapon for us and not her own individual? With her own motives? She will have fulfilled her destiny and be living her "best life" as an elder dragon without the need form her mortal commander caretaker. It's not like she'll just swoop in and kill "evil Asuran inquest leader #323" because she will have better shit to do.... If she is brought back and fulfills this destiny she could have practically no impact on the story moving forward and it would make perfect sense. It wouldn't be compared to "our power" because "our power" wouldn't exist. She would have her power in her new role, and we would have our own.

So, in countless discussion threads there has been mention of Aurene's resurrection "invalidating" the emotions created in this episode. "Cheesy writing." "Deus ex machina." Countless others expert critiques on the matter.

But how many have actually stopped to weigh the decision of resurrecting her could have and how much sense it already makes to do so?

1. Ogden mentions the death of a lich is part of the prophecy.

2. Aurene eats Joko - a lich - that up until that point has never been able to actually die. Because he was consumed by a being that actually eats magic itself. A being that is also known to be able to use said magic - example: Any elder dragon using deceased elder dragon magic, Balth and Aurene both being able to enter and exit the mists as they please due to Balthazar's magic.

3. Years worth of bonding with this character and being a part of her destiny to fulfill this prophecy that was reinforced in this very episode.

4. Glint pulling Aurene aside to mention that there are other aspects of Ascenscion that she needs to hear about and that we won't understand.

5. We have no other back-up story-wise right now that will allow us to fix the damage that will be done if we finish Kralk off, and as easy I can see them finding a way for us to finish Kralk off story-wise if he isn't just slowly bleeding out already we don't technically have a guaranteed way to kill him leaving us needing to find a solution for that first. (A solution that could span an entire season which at the current rate could be two real-life years for all we know. In which we, what? Have this wounded, almost dead elder dragon just chilling out while we find some magical solution that could have worked without Aurene making Aurene's plot entirely pointless?

6. We have the branding of Caithe, as well as seeing Aurene earlier in the trials come back from her talk with Glint as changed and glowing herself.

7. Aurene isn't shattered like Glint when she's dead, she isn't crystallized like Glint and Vlast were before-hand... which we've also been communicating with throughout this entire journey due to said crystallization upon-death.

8. We have an awakened Sylvari in this very same episode acknowledging that a minion or elder dragon descendent can in fact be awakened, meaning whatever magic Joko uses is strong enough or operates on some level that makes it able to resurrect things created from elder dragons. And if a prospective elder dragon happens to gain said magic, what implications might that have?

If Aurene is resurrected and becomes the solution to our Kralk problem, whether after we recklessly defeat him because we know we have to due to his devouring of the mists and we know this is the best opportunity we may get right now or she helps us in that final fight.... how would the emotions we were expected to feel this episode be lessened or negated completely as people imply?

1. Her death in this episode and revival next episode would lessen the deus-ex-dragon stigma she's been branded with ever since she ate Joko, and it would validate Joko's death as well as Ogden's words this episode of his death being part of the prophecy.

2. Kralk may be prophetic and able to sense things, but would he really sense Joko dying or know that it's even possible for Aurene to return to life due to said magic? Doesn't seem like he would, which would give us an advantage to finishing him off in the next episode.

3. The emotions of her death this episode could be what fuels us to finish Kralk off next episode, and Aurene's revival can come after the fact to clean up the mess, so it will have still served a purpose.

4. We don't know what her and Glint talked about, and death may have been necessary for her Ascenscion?

5. The death in this episode may be part of their general plan to separate us from Aurene moving forward, so that she CAN fulfil the role of an Elder Dragon without being this be-all solution for us in future plots. Perhaps this very death is what severs our bond with Aurene moving forward, despite being resurrected, and that's part of what this scene with Caithe is really about. It could be about showing us that this bond between us is broken. So if she comes back to life, she's free from that bond. She's free to take her own place as an Elder Dragon without responsibility toward us. She's fulfilled her destiny and now we're on our own. She can't just sense when we're in trouble and send us some flowery branded back-up. She has essentially mirrored what Kormir did in the first game. This death may allow her to sever all her bonds and her current ties, and between this and the talk she had with Glint about Ascenscion this may just be exactly what is needed to prep her for becoming Kralk's replacement. This would also be a good story excuse for what she's not just swooping in and saving us in future fights. (Which, again, she only did thus far ultimately because it's what her destiny led her to do while on the path to becoming an elder dragon.)

6. Keep in mind, all we really see is Aurene impaled, Caithe saying the connection is gone and her branding falling off, and Taimi screaming. Then it just cuts out, straight to black. It would seem if their goal was to have some huge emotional response to her death, they would have had follow up banter per usual with the rest of our team. They would have created a time for us to mourn after this encounter. But following it up with pitch black and ending it right there? Why do that unless to pick up right where it left off next episode? (Granted that's something they've never done and for some reason always default to mail or comms and to some degree understandably because if you start the story in the middle of lion's arch it would be a little weird trying to teleport the player back into the previous instance. One reason why these kinds of cliffhangers are annoying and not really fit for this style of story-telling imo.)

Aurene stays dead:

1. We are left with a grief-ridden team including a dying Asura that just had a close friend die, and now everything in her life is just death death death and misery....

2. The entire prophecy was a lie, or just some necessary step to lead us to plan b.

3. The story has been based around this character for the past few years, and in the end amounted to her just being some martyr that leads us to our next destination.

4. Aurene enters the mists and fulfills the exact same role that Glint does, but for some reason both of them being in the mists now allows them to fulfill the prophecy and kill Kralk. (Because for some reason Glint couldn't do this on her own and the key to their success was being in the same plane of existence and giving each other emotional support.)

5. We spent years getting to this point only to have to turn in a different direction, and spend another year or two years (still far less time than the time we've spent with Aurene and her as an egg), trying to find another solution. We find one, and then everything beforehand just feels cheesy and unnecessary.

6. Said solution we find may be something you think is cool like the staff of the mists, the weapon Vlast talked about - the weapon that does the work of elder dragons. - Okay, great, so the people complaining about Aurene being the solution to all future problems just got a weapon introduced that has no personality or story background with us and can solve all future elder dragon problems. Great trade, and it only took a few short episodes to get.

This is a bit of a mess, but ultimately, it's just frustrating seeing people reiterate that Aurene's resurrection would trash the story of this episode, without taking into account the many ways it's already been hinted at or the many ways it already makes perfect sense. And from my point of view the only sense. It's the best way that I'm seeing from a story perspective to resolve this plot with Kralk, which could be a very long and rewarding pay-off for years worth of story development that didn't just involve Airship blasting tails and wings or assaulting the mind and body of a dragon. Not only does it create a rewarding pay-off for those years worth of story, but it also creates a blank slate moving forward.

There are parts of this game's story that make far less sense than Joko's magic resurrecting/repairing Aurene and the parts of it that do not make sense can be far more easily explained than going in a different direction and then attempting to justify that direction change. Sorry, but as cheesy or however much it undermined the "emotional impact" of this episode, having this entire prophecy and bonding with this character only exist as a mere step guiding us in a different direction toward the real resolution or a setback among many setbacks on the way there instead of the actual resolution would be far worse for me.

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > @"Magnus Godrik.5841" said:

> > > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > > > @"Magnus Godrik.5841" said:

> > > > Dragons cant foresee thier deaths. Kralkatorik couldnt and glint couldnt so obviously aureen cant. If they could glint would be alive and kralkatorrik wouldnt be kitten in his pants.

> > >

> > > I mean, Kralkatorrik saw a world without him. That means he saw after his death.

> >

> > Yes but he didnt see how he dies and by whom.

>

> Doesn't really change anything. Glint couldn't see her death **or beyond it**. Kralkatorrik saw beyond his supposed death. Aurene saw her death.

>

> Either Glint lied to her "journal", or she's the lesser of the three.

If she couldn't see beyond her death then how does Ogden know about the lich being part of said prophecy? Or did I miss that that was information given to him by Glint long ago and we're just now hearing about it because this is the first time we've spoken to Ogden about it?

> @"Alimar.8760" said:

> > @"Jaunty.6018" said:

> > I hope they don't bring her back. It would ruin so much of the emotion. This episode added a sense of boldness and fragility that I haven't felt in awhile in this game, and now I'm actually interested in the writing again. I think if this is the real end for Aurene, we'll see a lot of players appreciating Path of Fire more and playing through the living story content again just to spend some more time with our special little scion.

>

> It will really depend on how they handle the next few episodes. If they immediately bring her back (In my opinion) make it feel like this episode was filler because 'Why kill her if you're just going to bring her back in 3 months?' Character deaths should be used sparingly and if it is used, bringing people back should be even more sparingly. Mostly because you remove the emotional risk of death if characters have obviously perceived plot armor. Again, it really depends on how it's handled. Personally I want her to come back, but I wouldn't mind if it's a year from now so that we truly believe she is dead before bringing her back.

So if she comes back next episode then this episode is somehow deemed a cheesy filler and a waste of time? Why?

Honestly, with all this constant talk about how bringing her back next episode would be cheesy writing and make this episode pointless, I'd rather them just end living story all together. Obviously everyone is an expert writer, so why even bother trying?

I mean, who cares if the past three years of raising this baby dragon, forming a bond, defeating countless enemies and episodes upon episodes of priming her for a prophecy is undone, it's her resurrection and the events that happened in one episode that really matters!

Yeah, it's probably better that they write her out of the plot all together. That way we can find something else to solve all of our problems and with absolutely no story introduction at all! We'll just magically have a solution or start a new quest to find said object that gives us a solution to our problems... that just decided to reveal itself out of nowhere and manage to be left out of years of planning of aforementioned prophecy! Great idea! F that Aurene deus-ex-dragon that solved all of our problems for us! It's so bold and great and grand that they had the courage to write her out of the story because she was a dead end weak plot device anyway! Let's introduce Jojo from a pocket universe in the mists, that has this super awesome staff that you can use to just bind elder dragons to your will! Or, hey, wait, there's another dragon in Cantha everyone forgot about! They're clearly the right dragon to defeat Kralk. Let's just devote one quick season to that dragon though. And hey, it's the second time we've tried this but it should surely work this time right..because we already pulled the "Bold story decision - kill this character even though we've killed countless main characters off already-lever".

I genuinely want to hear what some of these expert writers think is a good next step for the coming season or the resolution to the current plot. Because any deviation from the "prophecy" that we've been following for the past few years is going to take significantly more explanation, planning, and make far less sense than Aurene simply being not dead due to consuming Joko's magic - and given that Joko's death was a sign within this prophecy, I really don't see why people think that it's so far-fetched to have her remain the resolution. Oh, that's right, because everyone is an excellent writer and has this edgelord desire to see the writers kill off characters to make the story "darker." Because having an estranged son watching his mother get impaled, or a former lover turned monster chase their partner, or a brother's soul being trapped inside of a robot and said robot sacrificing themselves for what could be eternity just to give their brother a mere CHANCE at succeeding isn't dark enough? Or I don't know, Aurene's entire family being killed already anyway.

It's just ridiculous. Ridiculous that people seem to think there's another direction they can go with the story if Aurene stays dead, or because of Aurene's death, that makes anymore sense or is a better resolution to the current plot that wouldn't take an equal amount of time (years) to be worth our current journey. Your best case if Aurene did die is that she goes to the mists and somehow helps us from there. But then she's serving the exact same role that Glint has served this entire time and what is the point then? To give us visions to guide us somewhere that for some reason Glint, her much older and more knowledgable mother didn't seem to be privy to?

It's ridiculous that people just assume that Aurene is going to be this be-all end-all solution if she becomes an Elder Dragon and that she had to die just because she's helped us out thus far. When in reality, the reason she's helped us thus far is to lead her to the point that she could become the Elder Dragon - and then she's no longer our sidekick that swoops in and saves us, she has other responsibilities, like using her newfound power to fix the current brand. She won't have time to follow us around everywhere and help us everytime we need it.

> @"Aodlop.1907" said:

> Bringing her back would be cheap writing.

> Those who want her back are the same who cheered for Jon Snow's resurrection. The worst.

Cheap writing would be letting a character die that you’ve spent years on only to have to create some other resolution out of thin air.