Israel.7056

> @"cobbah.3102" said:

> > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > > @"cobbah.3102" said:

> > > Hmm still the same old thing wah wah wah kill acs nerf all siege we are bored and want to take everything easily ,we are so called fight guilds and want it all our own way ,but funnily enough the large servers are the biggest abusers of AC use. and misplacement of siege engines that have range go figure. Die slowly and beat on the wall.

> >

> > Same old thing we want a tool so strong we never have to fight people.

>

> I use all facets of the game to play, bit of this a bit of that but never lay down and roll over just because of complaints about siege it is what it is , and really you dont get a headache just from using the grey matter between the ears . There is always other games to play if it gets to hard to handle.

You can use your brain to learn your class and work with other players so you don't have to sit on siege to defend stuff. You can always go back to auric basin if that gets too hard to handle.

Arrow carts don't seem much weaker to me. Seems like the crying over the nerf was an enormous overreaction.

> @"Etheri.5406" said:

> > @"Rysdude.3824" said:

> > I love the self righteousness going on in this thread. Everyone thinks they know best lol

>

> Which is every single thread on this forum and next to no real discussion.

> Meanwhile anet has no idea what's actually going on in WvW. At least in EU. I know the wvw devs are working hard; but I genuinely don't think they actually know what's happening in EU wvw.

Well they don't really play the game much so....

They went to sor

Stacking only works because of aoe caps. In most games stacking is when everyone gets blown up.

> @"oOStaticOo.9467" said:

> Toxicity is never a success. All it will do is push everybody away and you'll be left with only yourself to play with. Which I guess some people enjoy.

The problem with this discussion is that toxicity is entirely subjective.

> @"DeadlySynz.3471" said:

> Better solution for zerging, impose on them to split otherwise lose everything and end up in lower tiers where it'll be even worse to find fights and still will repeatedly lose stuff if they refuse to split up:

>

> Server in 3rd place - Can freely map-hop without penalty

> Server in 2nd place - Has to wait 30 min in between changing maps

> Server in 1st place - Has to wait 60 min in between map hopping

>

> So in other words, that dominant 1st place server (the only likely behind the big monoblob) will simply have to pick 1 keep to defend and lose the rest if they insist on trying to outnumber the other servers while fighting. Or break up that mono-blob and park 10-15 in each objective they'd like to defend, making the numbers more even in an actual confrontation.

>

> Of course their will be some people that will still insist on blobbing, and their behavior will send them straight down to T4, with the rest of the servers who insist on blobbing, so that way they can blob each other in T4.

>

> That's exactly how you stick it to them, they don't get fights and they lose most everything in the process. Or they can choose to chop their blob up for more even number fights across the maps.

It's pretty easy to rotate with a blob and it's very easy to rotate with two zergs that can blob up when needed. All it takes is a couple commanders in coms. At some point you just gotta outrotate win node fights and outblob.

You know you can transfer servers to find a more populated one right? You don't have to be outnumbered all the time unless you choose to be

> @"oOStaticOo.9467" said:

> Have you seen the Nerf Arrow Cart thread? The majority in that thread think Zerging is the only thing to do. Having to stop and spend time trying to take down a small group of people defending a structure is dumb, it wastes their time, you should have to come out and defend it, and furthermore if you don't have enough people to defend it you shouldn't keep it! Blob mentality is the only WvW mentality. At least according to some.

I'm kind of amazed that that's what you took away from that thread.

Fun is subjective effectiveness depends on comp but good firebrands are going to be in high demand anywhere you go.

Been a thing as long as I can remember. Blobbing feels safe and it makes it easier to get things done.

Yeah I find them to be visually disorienting especially when there are several onscreen at once.

The 50v50 or 40v40 or 30v30 scenario happens all the time in the higher tiers particularly during na time zone. I should start recording every fight I'm in where defenders siege turtle to show how frequent it is.

The key to building defensive siege is to make it an obnoxious and unfun as possible. Make it take hours to get into lords and make every inch agonizing. That way even if they take the objective they log off due to frustration and boredom. Don't just to kill the siege build acs in places that can only fire on players. Fire the inner and outer mortars on them. Build ballis and catas to harass. Make sure every engagement takes place under cover of arrow carts or mortars or cannons or better yet all three. Make them never want to try another siege again.

> @"Rysdude.3824" said:

> > @"Balthazzarr.1349" said:

> > > @"Etheri.5406" said:

> > > > @"Balthazzarr.1349" said:

> > > > > @"Etheri.5406" said:

> > > >

> > > > > You're very welcome to come home and relax from a stressful day. Imagine, I come home from my long and stressful day at work and decide I'll tag up. The enemies instantly run because I have a group of good players capable of killing them, so I start to PPT to go up in tiers and get stronger enemies. I get shot by ACs for the next 3 hours. None of my players are having fun. I log off frustrated, because despite wanting to have fun in the game I didn't get a single fight all evening. I also didn't get to PPT enough to make up for the 5 defenders recapping everything the moment we log off.

> > > > .

> > > >

> > > > So here we have people trying to defend Keeps who get bugged because the blobs get in... on the other hand the blobs/zergs seem to also have issues because they can't fight AC's. Who in the world said you had to take the wall down AT the wall? long range trebs and catas can do the jobs... then blob your way through. It's not really that hard if your big group wants to actually TAKE the keep. I'm amazed at how many zergs give up when they don't have to.....

> > >

> > > I play on EU prime. The servers I play against are capable of queueing a map without issues during the time we fight. This doesn't stop them from buliding 10 acs and not coming out. And if we want to, we'll still take stuff but it'll take hours, be boring and the moment we get through the wall the defenders jump out anyways. At no point is there a real defense with players; there is only siege wars and stalling. "Give up" for what? Not spending my entire evening on a keep that auto-upgrades because EU has one prime? Great thinking.

> > >

> > > Again, there is no interactive gameplay in defending with pure siege. You expect attackers to do a perfect attack for several hours straight to flip your stuff because what? It took 3 players a few hours to upgrade? So it must take 70 players the same amount of time playing siege wars without defenders to hold? Of course not.

> > >

> > > Defenders are pretending defense is impossible, casually ignoring the fact that they still have MASSIVE advantages. Terrain is heavily in favor of defenders. Every keep helps your range and gank with space and freedom of movement. You still have siege, including mortars cannons acs and trebs which do a lot of damage. You have disablers which can't be prevented. I'm seeing trebs on every other gate which can't be blocked meaning gates don't even exist the moment 1 person is inside. Supply traps still easily stop blobs. Most cata's and trebs can be countered even when not next to the wall, or suicided on to delay more.

> > >

> > > And the hardest part is still pushing in, through chokes and a million siege, killing the defenders serveral times without having clear respwns, kill the lord, stand in a circle taking a million AoE while clearing it from all enemies and not letting them res the lord in an area where they constantly respawn + tactics + still having siege...

> > >

> > > YET SOMEHOW. Defending is impossible. Somehow, we just want to karma train, and if 5 players can't defend against 50 it's unfun and they're bullies.

> > >

> > > Defenders have absolutely massive advantages over attackers. If you can't defend your structures, perhaps you should work on your defense strategies rather than telling me how to play. And no, asking for ACs to be absolutely broken isn't a defense strategy ;).

> > >

> > > PS. Did I say anything about blob or about catas on a wall? Don't think so.

> >

> > catas on the wall... etc... <== I was speaking to the general comments in many of the posts here....

> >

> > After all is said and done the intent of my post was to point out that both sides are complaining about the other instead of just letting people do what they want. Sure some people do sit in T3 Keeps and man tons of siege I know a couple servers that do that but don't need to name them. It doesn't matter to me... let them sit in there and be bored... those Keeps obviously just get manned and left alone.

> >

> > As for the rest, some of us (like me) DO go into a Keep when it looks like it might be hit and a few of us will work our butts off defending it. If the blob is bad then they don't get in. If they know what they're doing then no amount of siege 3-5 of us can manage can keep them out. Most blobs aren't very good so they can be kept out, but the good ones just go through the T3 keeps like they're butter a lot of the time... when they really want to, they can do it.

> >

> > My issue is with the constant complaining from both sides.. Sheesh, I do both.. I will run with a zerg/blob from time to time just because it actually is fun at times. Other times I will roam and defend. I have no issue with the defenders or the zerg/blobs. Each does what they do. I only have issues with the complaining... I mean seriously, it's a game.. the mechanics have been put there for us to use.. why in the world would be not use them regardless of what mode we choose to play??

>

> Can’t help but agree here. A good blob with a good commander wouldn’t be stopped by just a few defenders with arrow carts. If that’s where the heartache is then maybe people should play smarter.

>

This entire line of thinking is so obviously erroneous I have a hard time believing it's genuine.

This has now become a straw man of a response to a red herring. Or maybe a red herring response to a response to another red herring I'm not sure.

Either way you should 100 percent of the time lose the objective 5v50 there is no serious argument that can be made to the contrary.

The actual real in game happens all the time issue is 50 defenders building siege to defend against 50 attackers instead of fighting them BECAUSE BUILDING DEFENSIVE SIEGE WHICH INCLUDE BUT ISNT LIMITED TO ARROW CARTS IS ALWAYS THE SUPERIOR DEFENSIVE STRATEGY REGARDLESS OF THE CONTEXT BECAUSE IT IS BRAINDEAD EASY TO BUILD AND OPERATE AND ITS ALL SO STRONG THAT VIRTUALLY ANYONE CAN BE EFFECTIVE WITH IT.

No one defending siege has even attempted to address this claim they've all just defaulted to "Well if you can't beat 5 people with arrow carts that's your problem."

There is a semantic confusion here because the word "meta" has at least two usages.

Sometimes it's used to mean some thing like "optimal" or "best." Other times it just means some thing like "common." In the first case it always leads to an argument over expertise or proper authority. It's difficult to establish authority on a forum but within a guild or even a persistent server group it's really rather simple and natural. If someone tags up regularly and they are vocal in their preferences and can explain said preferences most people will try to change to accommodate that commanders preference over time. The ones who don't get mocked and/or ostracized until they comply. This is how what one person considers optimal becomes common on a server and thus where the semantic confusion is born on a forum.

Not really possible to balance for solo roaming, small scale, medium scale and large scale at the same time so even if all their balance changes were oriented around WvW, which they aren't, there would still be standouts at some scale of play. It may be that mesmer and warrior shine at solo roaming but there's always going to be a standout. My advice is if you really think mesmer and warrior are broken for solo roaming to play either mesmer or warrior until they balance them out of existence and then swap to whatever becomes the next dominant thing. Ride the wave so to speak if you can. If you can't or won't don't be surprised when whatever you're playing sucks at some scale of fighting.

> @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said:

> Correct me if I am wrong (as I may be so wrong this is legit and not bashing anyone), however isnt WvW in EU a bit more serious than NA? Ive heard countless people who go to EU from NA and state this. Almost treating it like an esport. If this is true, that would probably the the root of any "EU toxicity" in WvW.

They get in coms they almost all bring proper classes and almost everyone joins squad.

Every other MMO I've ever played lost almost all its hardcore guilds within six months so the fact that so many of them stuck it out for several years in GW2 is worth something. Also the fact that almost six years in WvW is still fairly active despite being the most neglected of the three gamemodes imo says something. It's certainly not as busy as it was at launch or around seasons or anything like that but I know from experience what a truly dead game looks like and this isn't like that at all.

> @"oOStaticOo.9467" said:

> Oh my God. This is a Game, not actual warfare. It's supposed to be fun and entertaining. It's not like you are going to lose your house, job, or money if you lose. Why so serious? Why is it so difficult for people to understand that there are more than one way to play a game? Why do they have to get all angry and hurt if somebody else doesn't want to play the game the way they want to play it? Why do they have to be so rude to other people and belittle them? Just because it isn't a nurturing learning institution doesn't mean you can be a bully to other people playing a game that they want to enjoy, have fun, and relax from a long stressful day.

Pretty melodramatic. Lol at "bullying" PvP might not be for you.

> @"DeadlySynz.3471" said:

> It's never a good idea to nerf builds when players build armor sets around them (and invest a lot of time in). It creates a disincentive to even play (because why bother playing if they keep eradicating certain builds?)

>

> Always better to buff, so instead of having 1-2 viable builds (which you know only exist on some classes), it's better to have 3-4 or 5-6. Power creep? Nah, keep buffing other classes until everything is in line.

>

> Keep in mind, when a player says something like "well it's time to shelve my ......" then you know you've made "balancing" error.

But every build can be min maxed around, this seems like too broad a principle to me.

> @"BlueMelody.6398" said:

> Yet our 25-man group that carries at most 2 and sometimes 0 spellbreakers (so much for SB being "essential", whereas we always carry 6-8 FB and about that many scourges), often manage to beat similar-sized groups dropping 4-6 bubbles. If bubbles were that OP, we wouldn't be winning those fights.

You're fighting some very bad players if that's true.

You kind of have to "panic" if a bubble goes down near you but certainly if it goes down on top of you because you're always a few seconds away from being dead if pulls or ccs go down or just a decent condi bomb. Also it seems like were talking about open field and wide open terrain can we talk about how effective bubbles are in narrow terrain? Can we talk about how fights over actual objectives all take place in narrow terrain like hallways, narrow corridors and lords rooms?

> @"ProverbsofHell.2307" said:

> Sorry but anyone complaining about WoD needs to improve. Projectiles are HORRIBLE in zerg play anyway, so it's your fault for bringing them. You should be also looking out for Warriors about to pop WoD and focus CC them, or simply move off. Being static is a good way to get destroyed. Anyway, WoD only removes one boon per second, it's not even as powerful as people say - the true power is the "panic reaction" it creates, which makes people lose focus.

It is most certainly as powerful as people are saying . Its not trivial to focus down one spellbreaker with stances trying to pop winds 20 different warriors all with stances good luck with that. It doesn't just strip boons it prevents their reapplication which makes most support useless within the bubble and each one covers a large area so if the cc (pulls, grav wells etc) go down at the same time anyone caught is dead in seconds or has to gas out their defensives just to make it out. WoD carries fights harder than firebrands imo it is the single most powerful skill in wvw for medium to large scale fights.

> @"Henry.5713" said:

> Fights against good blobs with proper WoD usage is, more than anything, a L2P issue for both the commander and the players following. The amount of silly mistakes you see on a daily basis is mindblowing to say the least.

> Not to mention that Spellbreakers are already hardly scraping the Top of Blob Builds. The resulting "Pirate Ship Meta" during the MS Wars already put them far lower than that. A big nerf to WoD would simply push us towards more Scourges, more Pirate Ship, less or no Spellbreakers and an even staler META.

I would argue that spellbreakers are right next to firebrands at the top of the 'necessary classes that carry fights' list for medium to large scale comps. I want at least one fb and one sb per group.

Still seems pretty active to me