Israel.7056

> @"Clownmug.8357" said:

> > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > > @"TheGrimm.5624" said:

> > > > @"Chaba.5410" said:

> > > > > @"TheGrimm.5624" said:

> > > > > After running with it for a while, really think the AC changes should be rolled back personally. I feel the swing in AC damage favors the attackers too much.

> > > >

> > > > Or you are just too accustomed to defenders having more of an advantage. The change so far IMHO has been great. Seems like there has been more activity. Objectives SHOULD be flipping in active matches. When objectives don't flip as much, that's a stagnant match.

> > >

> > > I am seeing less defense and more back to Ktrain days. K-Train means zerg win and we lose peeps to other games, that's a bad business investment as we see pop declining quickly already. We need to find a balance between how many defending should hold off how many attacking. Bali's have no angels and don't fit the same role.

> >

> > Well as I said too many bad players were too used to the ac crutch. Not surprising that they might leave if they actually have to learn to fight people instead of just turtle objectives with siege. Good riddance to bad rubbish as they say.

>

> Bad players are better than no players. I hope you enjoy your new PvE game mode.

Absurd hyperbole. There are still plenty of people to fight turns out not everyone is a terrible siege turtle after all. Hope all the raging siege turtles have fun farming istan it's where they belong.

> @"TheGrimm.5624" said:

> > @"Chaba.5410" said:

> > > @"TheGrimm.5624" said:

> > > After running with it for a while, really think the AC changes should be rolled back personally. I feel the swing in AC damage favors the attackers too much.

> >

> > Or you are just too accustomed to defenders having more of an advantage. The change so far IMHO has been great. Seems like there has been more activity. Objectives SHOULD be flipping in active matches. When objectives don't flip as much, that's a stagnant match.

>

> I am seeing less defense and more back to Ktrain days. K-Train means zerg win and we lose peeps to other games, that's a bad business investment as we see pop declining quickly already. We need to find a balance between how many defending should hold off how many attacking. Bali's have no angels and don't fit the same role.

Well as I said too many bad players were too used to the ac crutch. Not surprising that they might leave if they actually have to learn to fight people instead of just turtle objectives with siege. Good riddance to bad rubbish as they say.

> @"TheGrimm.5624" said:

> > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > > @"TheGrimm.5624" said:

> > > After running with it for a while, really think the AC changes should be rolled back personally. I feel the swing in AC damage favors the attackers too much.

> >

> > Oh please they're still plenty strong.

>

> Could already stand in AC fire before, maybe less glass cannon?

Incorrect.

The thing about the original design is that it made it a little too easy to maintain stab provided you had enough guards.

Getting rid of stab would push the meta back towards pirate shipping and clouding basically. Stab is necessary to maintain uptime in any sort of extended melee engagement. Short and quick flanking melee hits would still be doable but I think that would be about it for melee.

I didn't say stop them just make it a slog. Can easily make it take an extra 20-30 minutes which can make all the difference if the defensive group is stalling for their own zerg. Moreover an equal sized force can make any attempt almost impossible if they use those same tactics on a larger scale. Supply draining is one of the more underused defensive tactics in my experience but 60 defense supply trapping 60 offense will shut down almost any sustained attempt. On offense there's no siege setup that cannot be countered in some fashion. This is why the big objectives tend to flip during coverage gaps. Gotta be fast and/or sneaky preferably both to take stuff especially from the higher tier servers.

> @"Rampage.7145" said:

> > @"Skeletor.9360" said:

> > There is another thread that has 2 false solutions.

> > More stability or less CC.

> > Both are bad ideas and heavily favor specific classes.

> >

> > What is needed I believe is to have NO stability but specific reactive skills that break crowd control. Once no longer CC'ed you have a timer of CC immunity of say 1 or 2 seconds. Any CC applied in that time is ignored. The CC clearing skill and application should be on timers that are multiples (2-5 times) the time of the CC immunity.

> >

> > Makes for much better game in that you actually have to make decisions on when to CC and when to clear. Unskilled players will hate this idea.

> > The entire class imbalance the stability idea introduced goes away.

> >

> > Can you make a small change with what I propose? Go ahead. We all want a better game.

>

> This does not work on mass scale PvP tho, stability is fantastic for WvW, it also adds a counter play to it which is corrupting or stripping it that is skilled gameplay, u know what is not skilled? depending on a CC immunity RNG timer LOL. Have you ever played as part of a guild or a zerg? just out curiosity

No he's a solo bristleback champion.

I've watched all of his "Bristlebackin Em" videos Volumes 1-50.

> @"Iris Ng.9845" said:

> Also, 20 players with 20 well-placed supply traps can drain a zerg __dry__ (remove 2k sup in total) and force them to leave to re-supply before inner. Ideally, you want to call out for incoming to your objectives before the blob reaches outer, that would greatly give you defender's advantage: hop on mortar/cannon/sAC to harass, cow the zerg to remove their supply, force them to build shield gen, disable the shield gen and wring them dry, etc (don't want to let out too much trade secrets, man).

Yeah this is an important point. Defenders still have the overwhelming advantage if they actually understand just how many tools they still have at their disposal compared to offense. ACs are just the tip of the iceberg so to speak. No one should really be able to take anything from anyone even if its 20v60 without it being a total slog. The fact that people are complaining about a slight AC nerf shows how little they actually understand about defending and how reliant they are on just that one tool in their arsenal.

If you're really worried about stab there's this class called spellbreaker you can employ in your comps that can completely shut down stab spam in any sort of close quarters fight.

It's an instinctual fight or flight human thing that makes its way into games because our brains can't initially tell the difference between a real fight and a video game one without training.

8 rams and shield gens i'd imagine

> @"Aeolus.3615" said:

> > @"Etheri.5406" said:

> > > @"Aeolus.3615" said:

> > > > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > > > Would there still be aoe ccs?

> > >

> > > Expect some class just be arorund that with aoe powercreep on the next expantion ahahahha.

> > >

> > > Anet overhwelmed the game with hot stuff, and even more spam arrived with PoF lameness, since everything is about ocndi/boon stacking, skill will become redundant in design since everythign being shouts, stance, mantras, signets, bananas, will fart boons at left and right at the end so everythign is all about the same with some diff flavour at mix... and they will need to be far stronger than actually the older elites to make players feel the class progression and they also have to feel they need to buy the expantions to become stronger.

> > >

> >

> > And even then, more skilled players will waltz over less skilled one in PvP. But why that's happening and which of the skills need to be spammed when? that only becomes more and more difficult for casual players who can't even keep up with what their skills do; much less how to read and deal with teh enemy spamming his.

>

>

> Well pvp in this game was designed for pve players, skill factor is just a very small build and how fast your gimmick hits hard or spams capabilities(soemthing that players will search instantly to correct when they are new to the gamemode), its just players that are bad at every game that actually found something to boast of, those real pvp players mostly if not basicly all already bailed out of this game, so it isnt less skilled players, just players with lesser build and class...due how new they are to the game mode.

> Even some real GVG guilds from gw1 actually bailed out of Gw2 due how dum,b they felt playing this game...

> Casual players only need a strong gimmick to carry them, game isnt that hard at all... and alot end using macros, and play a gimmick that allows that.

Personally I think you're a little too bearish on this game. I think that there's a massive skill difference between really good and really bad players. It's just that the skill difference isn't only mechanical skill and so it looks to the sorry to say untrained eye like it's all just about spamming and buildcraft/compcraft but it's not. This is true at every level of play in both PvP and WvW and it seems to me one of the main reasons so many people stay bad for so long is because they think they're just getting "outspammed" or "outgimmicked" or "outcomped" or whatever when really there's a lot more to it at least from my perspective. The hard part about teaching this game to newer players is trying to get them to see outside the base mechanics so to speak.

> @"cobbah.3102" said:

> > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > > @"Kylden Ar.3724" said:

> > > > @"Threather.9354" said:

> > > > Defending was too easy.

> > > >

> > > > I dont think acs were the main problem, rather tactics, t3 gates/walls and claim buff, but at least it is at the right direction.

> > > >

> > > > Like literally best plan with good group vs good group was never going near upgraded enemy objectives. As long as they nerf claim buff, it will be pretty balanced.

> > >

> > > Are you high?

> > > Just today a BG zerg busted into a T3 Kaineng Hills in less than 2 mins even though we had some 20 defenders.

> > >

> > > Numbers beats everything in this mode. If anything, defending is too hard.

> > >

> > > These k-train folks will not be happy until WvW is a white square box with nothing but 24/7 deathmatch. The deathmatch mode of PvP failed because that was boring.

> >

> > You shouldn't be able to defend for long 20vzerg.

>

> I do not concur with that assumption ,it is a game mode where you make a commitment and just not quit, defend and fight to the last.

I think you misunderstood me. I'm not saying that it shouldn't be attempted or that it's not conceivably possible. I'm saying that the odds should be heavily against the defenders at that point assuming the attacking zerg is competent, which is surely the case with a bg zerg.

All I want is map complete via WvW currencies and repeatable diamond tickets.

Would there still be aoe ccs?

> @"Kylden Ar.3724" said:

> > @"Threather.9354" said:

> > Defending was too easy.

> >

> > I dont think acs were the main problem, rather tactics, t3 gates/walls and claim buff, but at least it is at the right direction.

> >

> > Like literally best plan with good group vs good group was never going near upgraded enemy objectives. As long as they nerf claim buff, it will be pretty balanced.

>

> Are you high?

> Just today a BG zerg busted into a T3 Kaineng Hills in less than 2 mins even though we had some 20 defenders.

>

> Numbers beats everything in this mode. If anything, defending is too hard.

>

> These k-train folks will not be happy until WvW is a white square box with nothing but 24/7 deathmatch. The deathmatch mode of PvP failed because that was boring.

You shouldn't be able to defend for long 20vzerg.

> @"MauChann.3081" said:

> > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > I don't really care what the majority thinks or doesn't think. From a practical perspective there is a right way to play gw2 and a wrong way to play gw2 assuming the goal is actually to win fights.

> >

> > The problem with so called "casuals" is that they usually want all the benefits that come from playing properly and winning fights and by extension taking objectives but they don't want to do the work required to actually play properly and win fights and by extension take objectives.

> >

> > They want the payoff without doing the work required to get the payoff. Even worse they get mad at anyone who points this out to them aka "elitist commanders." It's like a fat person who wants to be fit but won't exercise or eat healthier EDIT: and gets mad at anyone who tells them "hey maybe don't eat so much and start exercising."

> >

> > So to casuals I say ok do whatever you want but don't be surprised when you lose over and over and over and none of the people doing the right stuff want anything to do with you.

> >

> >

>

> Agreed to most of this, But I also know that this is generalizing. Yes a lot of casuals are like this but there's still that chunk of "casuals" who want to learn and don't actually get to learn because of this stereotype. I want to work for my payoff. But I don't get to. Because by now all the other casuals ruined it for the people like me who actually want to contribute to the squad running at that moment, even if its for just one day. I've explained it many times in this thread and I'm tired of having to say it over and over again.

> Not all casuals leech. But perhaps if you started explaining how to improve, and yes i read the "commanders have no time to explain casuals how to be better at WvW while commanding". Then still there would be enough people in the squad at that moment, able to chat. Or even on the forums like this, or in lion's arch, or you name it, nobody said it had to be the commander specifically. Ofcourse it would be best for us if the commander at that point explained their preferences because every commander has their own way of commanding. It doesn't need to be in the chat, it could even be in a squad message.

> I'm in no way saying the WvW community at this point should cater to us casuals. But you could atleast give us a chance of actually wanting to be better and participate like everyone else, you could atleast accept those who are trying instead of pile us in with the rest of the casuals who really leech.

>

> ~~Also not as a direct attack to you but i really wish people in this thread would start reading what people are saying instead of selective reading and then take everything out of context because i'm real tired of that too.~~

Ok fair enough. Yes I'm generalizing somewhat. The term "casual" is also nebulous. Originally I think it just referred to average playtime. Now I think it's used to describe people who just want to leech.

Everyone starts out terrible and gets better over time, myself included I get that. But I also know from my own experience that getting better doesn't happen randomly.

If you're not sure about your build ask someone you respect. Read guides watch videos and streams if they're available. Study the game learn the meta. Put in the time to think about your play sessions. Anyone can get good with enough time and practice.

Also get in coms regularly if your server has coms. Talk to the commanders get to know their playstyle.

All these things bridge the gap between "casual" and whatever comes between casual and elite. It's doable for anyone but as I said before everyone wants bags and captures relatively few want to do the work needed to get those bags and captures.

> @"oOStaticOo.9467" said:

> > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > > @"oOStaticOo.9467" said:

> > > Here's the thing the "Casuals" basically want. Inclusion. They don't want to Min/Max Stats to get the absolute most and best DPS out of a specific character, nor have to memorize a specific rotation of skills and powers to maximize the amount of damage and sustain they can do. However, they do want to be able to participate and help out when it comes to capturing something or fighting another enemy blob. They don't want to be harassed because they don't have a specific build that is current Meta. Yet you will see people on these forums calling for player toxicity towards "Casuals". You will see them call for harassment because they aren't playing a certain way. You will see them say things like leading "Casuals" into death by fake pushing into a blob or going to a keep and standing them under AC and player fire until they die so many times they give up and quit. When all they want to do is help capture a tower, keep, or take down an enemy blob that is in the area. They want to have fun too, yet so many will deny them this fun because they aren't trying to do it the way the others want them to do it. Any "Casual" will understand if they get a message saying, "Hey buddy, look you are welcome to join the squad but as soon as we are full and another player comes on that is more what we are looking for you'll get kicked from the squad. Although you are more than welcome to follow behind us and help out if you like." It also doesn't take much to designate one person from the back line of the squad to type map chat commands for what the squad may be doing. Push, Left, Right, Back, Bomb, Stab, CC, Ogre Watch, SM, etc. You don't necessarily have to type out a full complete paragraph as to what the blob is doing to get the message across for those that are not in the squad. I've followed many squads that have said those things in map chat and have had no problems following those commands. When I play, I do not play thinking that somebody will follow me around being my person healbot or hand feeding me boons. I play to rely on myself and not others, if others help....great! I think a lot of other people play the same way and are not looking to intentionally leech boons and heals from blobs, like some have said that they do. Does it happen? Sure, but it's not intentional. The way I see it, the more people you have trying to do an objective the better your odds are of accomplishing that. This elitist mentality of "my way or the highway" needs to stop. We all need to get along and work together to accomplish an objective.

> >

> > This way of thinking is why so many good commanders have either quit or run closed. This profound sense of entitlement is infuriating. No one is entitled to be included in anything. Everyone has to earn their spot in the group. If they cannot be bothered with that then they deserve to be excluded until they fix up or they can make their own squad.

>

> And I'd say that your way of thinking is why WvW is slowly dying. As the game gets older and progresses, people come and go. The old timers leave because they are bored and seeking something new and different. New people, a.k.a. Casuals, come in and want to play the game and just because they don't play like the old timers and have a different way of playing they get harassed and made fun of which causes them to leave or seek out a different game as well. Now you are stuck with an old mentality of how a game should be played instead of trying to adapt and keep the game going. As I have repeatedly said, there are a lot of people that do not care to Min/Max. They just want to play a game and have fun doing it. I'm sorry. I really am. I understand that to some Min/Maxing is fun and that's how they enjoy playing the game, but to what seems to be the majority now according to what I have been reading others do not see that as fun. Instead it is tedious and boring to them. There is no challenge when you max out your ability to achieve something with the most minimal risk in return. When all you have to do is show up and push the same buttons in the same order and everything just melts in your path, that's not exciting to some. When people continue to do something over and over again and never deviate, they get bored of doing that repetitive thing and start looking for something that is more challenging in return. Why is this so hard to understand? It's more fun to some to try to take a non-meta build that isn't optimal and see if they can beat an opponent that is running a meta build that has been fine tuned. When they win, they get a rush and a sense of accomplishment. Do they always win? No. Obviously meta is meta for a reason, but it's still fun and exciting when they do.

I don't really care what the majority thinks or doesn't think. From a practical perspective there is a right way to play gw2 and a wrong way to play gw2 assuming the goal is actually to win fights.

The problem with so called "casuals" is that they usually want all the benefits that come from playing properly and winning fights and by extension taking objectives but they don't want to do the work required to actually play properly and win fights and by extension take objectives.

They want the payoff without doing the work required to get the payoff. Even worse they get mad at anyone who points this out to them aka "elitist commanders." It's like a fat person who wants to be fit but won't exercise or eat healthier EDIT: and gets mad at anyone who tells them "hey maybe don't eat so much and start exercising."

So to casuals I say ok do whatever you want but don't be surprised when you lose over and over and over and none of the people doing the right stuff want anything to do with you.

> @"oOStaticOo.9467" said:

> Here's the thing the "Casuals" basically want. Inclusion. They don't want to Min/Max Stats to get the absolute most and best DPS out of a specific character, nor have to memorize a specific rotation of skills and powers to maximize the amount of damage and sustain they can do. However, they do want to be able to participate and help out when it comes to capturing something or fighting another enemy blob. They don't want to be harassed because they don't have a specific build that is current Meta. Yet you will see people on these forums calling for player toxicity towards "Casuals". You will see them call for harassment because they aren't playing a certain way. You will see them say things like leading "Casuals" into death by fake pushing into a blob or going to a keep and standing them under AC and player fire until they die so many times they give up and quit. When all they want to do is help capture a tower, keep, or take down an enemy blob that is in the area. They want to have fun too, yet so many will deny them this fun because they aren't trying to do it the way the others want them to do it. Any "Casual" will understand if they get a message saying, "Hey buddy, look you are welcome to join the squad but as soon as we are full and another player comes on that is more what we are looking for you'll get kicked from the squad. Although you are more than welcome to follow behind us and help out if you like." It also doesn't take much to designate one person from the back line of the squad to type map chat commands for what the squad may be doing. Push, Left, Right, Back, Bomb, Stab, CC, Ogre Watch, SM, etc. You don't necessarily have to type out a full complete paragraph as to what the blob is doing to get the message across for those that are not in the squad. I've followed many squads that have said those things in map chat and have had no problems following those commands. When I play, I do not play thinking that somebody will follow me around being my person healbot or hand feeding me boons. I play to rely on myself and not others, if others help....great! I think a lot of other people play the same way and are not looking to intentionally leech boons and heals from blobs, like some have said that they do. Does it happen? Sure, but it's not intentional. The way I see it, the more people you have trying to do an objective the better your odds are of accomplishing that. This elitist mentality of "my way or the highway" needs to stop. We all need to get along and work together to accomplish an objective.

This way of thinking is why so many good commanders have either quit or run closed. This profound sense of entitlement is infuriating. No one is entitled to be included in anything. Everyone has to earn their spot in the group. If they cannot be bothered with that then they deserve to be excluded until they fix up or they can make their own squad.

Well that's good you shouldn't be able to kill players with siege alone. Should have to actually fight too.

> @"XenesisII.1540" said:

> Increase capacity of your servers.... someone doesn't know how this works...

You just get bigger servers duh

All this change has done is add some measure of diminishing returns to people who like to build multiple acs in one spot. So before you could build 8 acs and overlap fire and anything caught in it was immediately in trouble. Now it's maybe 4 max anything past that and there's some dr on overlapping fire. Personally I think they're still too strong but it's a move in the right direction.

> @"TheGrimm.5624" said:

> After running with it for a while, really think the AC changes should be rolled back personally. I feel the swing in AC damage favors the attackers too much.

Oh please they're still plenty strong.

I dunno still plenty of people siege turtling last time I played seems the playstyle is alive and well. Ac nerf didn't change much if anything at all.

My advice to you is simple just keep showing up fuck anyone who doesn't like it.