Israel.7056

> @"Vayne.8563" said:

> As a separate note, whether or not Anet should or shouldn't have a power increase in expansion specs is one conversation and whether the represents pay to win, which has an existing definition that is being misused in the OP is a different question. It's not the definition of P2W, which doesn't mean that the OP doesn't have a point. The terminology being used, however, immediately muddies the water, because people in general don't consider expansions pay to win. It's hard for the rest of the argument to get traction as long as we're arguing over that term.

Dictionary definitions are descriptive rather than prescriptive.

I believe the validity of the term "pay to win" in this instance depends on how literally one interprets the language itself. I take a more literal approach with this term and say that anything that requires some sort of payment in order to have even a slightly better chance of winning can be called "pay to win." This is because strictly speaking you are paying money in order to have a better chance of winning even if that chance isn't 100 percent. The difference between how pay to win a given game is is therefore always a difference in degree rather than a difference in kind. In this particular case I think expansions like the ones Anet has released, where virtually everything new is stronger than everything old, is an obvious albeit forgivable form of pay to win because the people who pay the money to get the expansions will have a very significant competitive advantage over the people who don't in both PvP and PvE.

I think it's also important to consider the likely intent behind the purchases in these discussions as well. What does someone who buys the expansions for PvP/WvW buy them for? Probably the elite specs and perhaps gliding in WvW. What is the intent behind that decision? Presumably to give themselves a better chance of winning than they think they would otherwise have. So for instance someone who picks up PoF just to have Spellbreaker for WvW is probably doing so because they think they'll have a better chance of winning than if they stuck with vanilla warrior etc etc.

> @"LetoII.3782" said:

> Every mmo I've seen host an Ocx cluster has shuttered it within the first year .. You guys may just have to accept that your population is inadequate for a modest genre like RPGs Maybe tell your MP's to stop refusing refugees? Worked for 'Murica

Too bad they're on an island and almost everything in Australia is enormous and extremely poisonous.

Unfortunately probably not enough Australians to support enough servers to create even a three way match much less multiple three way matches. Would be nice for Australians but probably not worth it for Anet.

It is a difference in degree rather than a difference in kind. Yes you have to pay to get the xpacs yes the hot and pof elites are stronger than the core specs. In that sense it's p2w. But the difference in the degree of p2w between a game like GW2 and a game like Archeage for instance is enormous. If you can find a game that doesn't ask for any money whatsoever in order to be able to play it and you prefer that game's gameplay to GW2 then play that other game. If not suck it up and buy the xpacs and move on with your life because they're not going to set up a legacy server just to save you money why would they?

> @"BlueMelody.6398" said:

> Not true. I play spellbreaker with full passive defenses, active stunbreaks, and tanky gear, and I still get chain-stunned and bombed to death. If the passives are ticking, they are instantly overwritten, the active stunbreak clicks and is immediately overwritten by yet more cc. This happens when on tag, in the frontline, just from the blob's well-spread out (meaning you can double-dodge and still be in the aoe) bomb. Double guards in every party, they die too. CC and boonstrip overwhelms stabs/stunbreaks right now.

Would be interesting to see a video of this happening to you so we could get a better sense of exactly what happened.

Your role is bubbles and clears

> @"Threather.9354" said:

> While I do understand why pugs bring random classes so I don't blame them too much.

In my experience it's usually the really low IQ players who can't put two and two together in their heads and find the simple paths to victory. Not talked about a lot on gaming forums but there are some incredibly stupid people who play these sorts of games and they just don't have the brainpower to even make sense of the meta at an abstract level.

As you said it's not their fault no one gets to choose their brain but it's still incredibly frustrating to deal with.

I was told CF left to IoJ first day of link. Would've gotten trolled off if he would've stayed no doubt.

I have to say I really hate your gaming philosophy. But whatever it just makes it more enjoyable to roll NSP whenever we face you guys.

> @"Ubi.4136" said:

> 1. Make it so only rams do damage to structures and the gate is the only way inside. Only ram damage contests structures.

Would work for me as long as they removed all the other siege as you said.

> 2. They would have to figure out a way to make it so defenders can actually stand on the wall (or at least have a place to fight back from inside). Right now attackers can just stack endless aoe's while defenders can't reciprocate.

Why though? Why not just jump out and fight?

> 3. Since there would be no siege to destroy and players can not contest structures, I would like to see 1 or 2 classes be able to climb walls to get in to the outer portion of keeps. DAoC it was stealth classes and each realms hero class. Mesmer kind of breaks that rule here (cause portal), but thieves...and maybe warriors or some new class they could add in an expansion.

Could be interesting.

> 4. They also need to up the guard patrols inside keeps, and make them hit 3-4x as hard and run like the Flash with aggro on one pulling aggro from like 1/4th the keep guards. The risk vs reward portion of being able to climb in to outer, was the guards were so fast and hit so hard that players could be nearly 1 shot by them in 2 seconds anywhere.

No thanks. Eso was like that at launch and it was aids. Guards were a bigger threat than the players.

> The population thing is player driven, and I'm not sure Anet can fix it. Players just want free easy stuff, and the world implodes on them when they can't get it. Kind of like the Kung Fu Tea thing. Starting to lose hope that wvw can be saved especially watching some of what I see in game, or on streams and other videos guilds upload. It just makes me a combination of frustrated and sad.

Well humans are a tragic species. That's not Anet's fault they just cater to it as do all gaming companies to one degree or another. Humans will generally try to follow the path of least immediate and obvious resistance. In this instance that means server hopping until they find an easy win. In the long run it makes them weaker but in the short run they get shinies.

> @"Ubi.4136" said:

> > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > > @"cobbah.3102" said:

> > > > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > > > > @"Ubi.4136" said:

> > > > > > @"steki.1478" said:

> > > > > > > @"Ubi.4136" said:

> > > > > > > This is a lot of what I am seeing now for T3 towers.

> > > > > > > 1. Enemy trolls tactics. Appears near tower the second invulnerable drops.

> > > > > > > 2. Passes sentry without stopping so you see them coming, but keep already contested, the run from spawn is on.

> > > > > > > 3. Tower scout mans arrow cart, no on in the zerg has health drop below 90% ever.

> > > > > > > 4. Can't disable through shield gens or even get one off in most cases vs the blob.

> > > > > > > 5. Total elapsed time from the dots appearing by sentry to tower flip...45 seconds.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > The blobs got exactly what they wanted. Yes, there are some terrible blobs who can't coordinate and fail VERY often, but I've seen tons of T3's flip in less than 1 minute during the last 2 weeks, because the blob no longer needs to plan and stay at range, they can just stand next to the tower, nuke everything down and flip it.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > How many people did you have in that tower to defend though?

> > > > >

> > > > > There were 3 in the tower scouting when the blob passed the sentry (this latest example was OW). When the 65-70 ish blob got to the tower, people had to run from red spawn to OW since keep had been contested for 8 straight hours by perma-stealth deadeye. The others were running from Anz. I was by the Overlook keep vista when I saw the dots at OW sentry. I used the mortar that was right there since it would allow me to fire a shot that would hit about the time they dropped rams. From the time they appeared as dots at the sentry, to the time the tower flipped, was 6 full power mortar shots. One siege disable was tried, but blocked, they died. Second was pulled off the wall, and died. The one guy on AC didn't even dent them, but they died gloriously in the fray 1 vs about 70. The tower was lost regardless imo, but it really should take longer than that to flip a fully repaired/fortified structure. The AC nerf has changed the blob behavior somewhat. They used to have to plan it out, because standing under arrow cart fire would hurt, they would lose people, and risk losing the attempt. Now, there is NO risk of death, unless some random gift of battle pve'er is out in their masterwork pve build watching it rain on them. So the superblob just stands fearless next to the tower, blobs it down in under a minute, and moves on.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > This is as it should be imo. I don't think 3 people should be able to stall 60 with some acs even if they have three acs perfectly placed. If three people with acs can stall 60 even for a few minutes then acs are way way way too strong.

> > > >

> > > > The defensive game should require as much manpower as the offensive game so that if you wanted to keep your stuff you should have to match numbers and actually win the fights not just sit on siege and turtle objectives all day.

> > >

> > > It is never going to happen in the realm of reality with the server imbalances as they are ,timezones have an impact and to think that because one timezone does not have the coverage they should just rollover and play dead or throw themselves foolishly into a seething mass of instant death is ludicrous to what end so they can feel good about themselves , it is part of the game and why the heck should attackers be given a free ride for the sake of the almighty "loot" which is of no significant reward. Everybody is entitled to play the game as it was designed to be played , its about time that the so called "fight guilds" do not have an impact on the enjoyment of other players who have also paid for a game that appealed to them , It is enough that so called allies give grief to players on the same server because they choose to play it that way and totally ignore callouts to the detriment of others . Think it is about time defenders voices were heard also , lets change the name of the game to Nerf Wars and then you think everybody would be happy yeh/nah it isnt going to happen, Long Live the turtles of the game the REAL players who value the core of the game as it was designed. There is EoTM for the ones that want to do things without siege and roll over mobs neverending. Go there and leave us to our entertainment.

> >

> > This is supposed to be a large scale PvP centered game mode with light siege elements where players spend most of their playtime fighting other players over objectives. The core of the game mode is supposed to be PvP not siege turtling for hours on end.

> >

> > Maybe instead of complaining about the impact of organized fight guilds you could you know learn how to actually fight and maybe try to join a fight guild so you're not always relegated to sitting on arrow carts to defend stuff? Just a thought.

> >

> >

>

> But that isn't what's happening. Servers stack, bandwagon, and blob (time and time again). They map hop when they face an equal size force that beats them once, or, they just log off until there is nothing to really oppose them. Then, they ktrain down towers and avoid any other large force. Zergs don't even fight each other anymore unless they have to, which really isn't that often (except to defend their precious fully fortified/sieged up SMC), and won't attempt anything that takes more than a few minutes. Occasionally, bored blobs will attack a keep, but because they are 50+ strong fighting barely 20, or they already know there are no defenders. Even then, half the time they troll tactics, because no one wants to have to fight if an EWP goes off, or they don't feel like they should have to wait out the invulnerable. They aren't breaking in for "great open field combat", they siege from fortified positions that the enemy has no chance at attacking, and when they desiege everything from max treb range because there are a few defenders, they rush in and blob it down. When there are no defenders, they just drop obsecene amounts of siege, nuke down the wall and flip it in a minute.

>

> The glory days of skilled guilds fighting vs larger numbers to prove their prowess is gone. This game was about the structures anyway. Fighting to take them, and fighting to defend them. Now, people just want them flipped as fast as possible for loot/wxp, and aren't interested in showing their skill, just their numbers.

>

> I see it in every tier from T1 to T4.

Im not a fan of server stacking but i understand the impulse. People stack servers because they want to play with other like minded competent people. No one wants to have to try to carry anyone i know i sure dont.

The problem at this point in the game is that most of the competent people are gone and so most servers seem to be filled with people who have almost no clue how to actually fight other players because they've spent their time focused on building up and defending the objectives with siege rather than the PvP part of the game mode which should have been their main focus all along.

I have been saying siege is a crutch and this is exactly what I mean. It was something players could lean on to win fights and defend objectives they would not otherwise have been able to. Once that crutch gets pulled out from under them even a little all the players who relied on it suddenly find themselves unable to metaphorically stand on their own two feet anymore.

If you cannot win the fight to defend something you should not have it. If you don't have enough people willing or able to try the fight you should lose. This is the way the game should always be. No shortcuts no crutches only fighting other players.

> @"oOStaticOo.9467" said:

> Basically, whomever yells the most will win. Anet will listen to them over everybody else. Right now Fight Guilds are winning the Nerf wars. And I agree, close this thread. It's overdue. Nothing will get resolved. The Fight guilds will never budge on trying to reach a compromise. I'm sure if it were up to them, we'd have no siege at all.

No compromises ever. The fighters should get their way completely and people like you should learn to become fighters.

> @"cobbah.3102" said:

> > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > > @"Ubi.4136" said:

> > > > @"steki.1478" said:

> > > > > @"Ubi.4136" said:

> > > > > This is a lot of what I am seeing now for T3 towers.

> > > > > 1. Enemy trolls tactics. Appears near tower the second invulnerable drops.

> > > > > 2. Passes sentry without stopping so you see them coming, but keep already contested, the run from spawn is on.

> > > > > 3. Tower scout mans arrow cart, no on in the zerg has health drop below 90% ever.

> > > > > 4. Can't disable through shield gens or even get one off in most cases vs the blob.

> > > > > 5. Total elapsed time from the dots appearing by sentry to tower flip...45 seconds.

> > > > >

> > > > > The blobs got exactly what they wanted. Yes, there are some terrible blobs who can't coordinate and fail VERY often, but I've seen tons of T3's flip in less than 1 minute during the last 2 weeks, because the blob no longer needs to plan and stay at range, they can just stand next to the tower, nuke everything down and flip it.

> > > >

> > > > How many people did you have in that tower to defend though?

> > >

> > > There were 3 in the tower scouting when the blob passed the sentry (this latest example was OW). When the 65-70 ish blob got to the tower, people had to run from red spawn to OW since keep had been contested for 8 straight hours by perma-stealth deadeye. The others were running from Anz. I was by the Overlook keep vista when I saw the dots at OW sentry. I used the mortar that was right there since it would allow me to fire a shot that would hit about the time they dropped rams. From the time they appeared as dots at the sentry, to the time the tower flipped, was 6 full power mortar shots. One siege disable was tried, but blocked, they died. Second was pulled off the wall, and died. The one guy on AC didn't even dent them, but they died gloriously in the fray 1 vs about 70. The tower was lost regardless imo, but it really should take longer than that to flip a fully repaired/fortified structure. The AC nerf has changed the blob behavior somewhat. They used to have to plan it out, because standing under arrow cart fire would hurt, they would lose people, and risk losing the attempt. Now, there is NO risk of death, unless some random gift of battle pve'er is out in their masterwork pve build watching it rain on them. So the superblob just stands fearless next to the tower, blobs it down in under a minute, and moves on.

> > >

> >

> > This is as it should be imo. I don't think 3 people should be able to stall 60 with some acs even if they have three acs perfectly placed. If three people with acs can stall 60 even for a few minutes then acs are way way way too strong.

> >

> > The defensive game should require as much manpower as the offensive game so that if you wanted to keep your stuff you should have to match numbers and actually win the fights not just sit on siege and turtle objectives all day.

>

> It is never going to happen in the realm of reality with the server imbalances as they are ,timezones have an impact and to think that because one timezone does not have the coverage they should just rollover and play dead or throw themselves foolishly into a seething mass of instant death is ludicrous to what end so they can feel good about themselves , it is part of the game and why the heck should attackers be given a free ride for the sake of the almighty "loot" which is of no significant reward. Everybody is entitled to play the game as it was designed to be played , its about time that the so called "fight guilds" do not have an impact on the enjoyment of other players who have also paid for a game that appealed to them , It is enough that so called allies give grief to players on the same server because they choose to play it that way and totally ignore callouts to the detriment of others . Think it is about time defenders voices were heard also , lets change the name of the game to Nerf Wars and then you think everybody would be happy yeh/nah it isnt going to happen, Long Live the turtles of the game the REAL players who value the core of the game as it was designed. There is EoTM for the ones that want to do things without siege and roll over mobs neverending. Go there and leave us to our entertainment.

This is supposed to be a large scale PvP centered game mode with light siege elements where players spend most of their playtime fighting other players over objectives. The core of the game mode is supposed to be PvP not siege turtling for hours on end.

Maybe instead of complaining about the impact of organized fight guilds you could you know learn how to actually fight and maybe try to join a fight guild so you're not always relegated to sitting on arrow carts to defend stuff? Just a thought.

> @"Ubi.4136" said:

> > @"steki.1478" said:

> > > @"Ubi.4136" said:

> > > This is a lot of what I am seeing now for T3 towers.

> > > 1. Enemy trolls tactics. Appears near tower the second invulnerable drops.

> > > 2. Passes sentry without stopping so you see them coming, but keep already contested, the run from spawn is on.

> > > 3. Tower scout mans arrow cart, no on in the zerg has health drop below 90% ever.

> > > 4. Can't disable through shield gens or even get one off in most cases vs the blob.

> > > 5. Total elapsed time from the dots appearing by sentry to tower flip...45 seconds.

> > >

> > > The blobs got exactly what they wanted. Yes, there are some terrible blobs who can't coordinate and fail VERY often, but I've seen tons of T3's flip in less than 1 minute during the last 2 weeks, because the blob no longer needs to plan and stay at range, they can just stand next to the tower, nuke everything down and flip it.

> >

> > How many people did you have in that tower to defend though?

>

> There were 3 in the tower scouting when the blob passed the sentry (this latest example was OW). When the 65-70 ish blob got to the tower, people had to run from red spawn to OW since keep had been contested for 8 straight hours by perma-stealth deadeye. The others were running from Anz. I was by the Overlook keep vista when I saw the dots at OW sentry. I used the mortar that was right there since it would allow me to fire a shot that would hit about the time they dropped rams. From the time they appeared as dots at the sentry, to the time the tower flipped, was 6 full power mortar shots. One siege disable was tried, but blocked, they died. Second was pulled off the wall, and died. The one guy on AC didn't even dent them, but they died gloriously in the fray 1 vs about 70. The tower was lost regardless imo, but it really should take longer than that to flip a fully repaired/fortified structure. The AC nerf has changed the blob behavior somewhat. They used to have to plan it out, because standing under arrow cart fire would hurt, they would lose people, and risk losing the attempt. Now, there is NO risk of death, unless some random gift of battle pve'er is out in their masterwork pve build watching it rain on them. So the superblob just stands fearless next to the tower, blobs it down in under a minute, and moves on.

>

This is as it should be imo. I don't think 3 people should be able to stall 60 with some acs even if they have three acs perfectly placed. If three people with acs can stall 60 even for a few minutes then acs are way way way too strong.

The defensive game should require as much manpower as the offensive game so that if you wanted to keep your stuff you should have to match numbers and actually win the fights not just sit on siege and turtle objectives all day.

> @"Zero.3871" said:

> dodging critical skills of their opponents(e.g. death judgement that has a warning Sound) is not nessecary fo them, cause they just spam their invuls/blocks whatever. so bad Players get carried too hard by those mechanics. cause even if you would reduce the uptimes a good Player would dodge DJ and stay alive. a bad Players dont dodge it and die, cause they dont have enough invuls…. to counter this attack by coincidence.

You don't really seem to understand how warrior works you should try playing one before you complain about them. They cannot spam EP. They cannot spam blocks. If you're on a thief and a warrior pops a bunch of cds just sb away come back once theyre down and you win.

Warrior shield block isn't an invuln ep is not an invuln full counter has simple counterplay at least on rev. Whirlwind is a short I frame easy to play around. If a warrior blows all their cds at once walk away for 10 seconds and they're gassed.

> @"Zero.3871" said:

> It is not just 1 invul, or 1 block or 1 invis the Problem, it is the Overall uptime for those skills. Just look to warrior, Mirage and holo...

>

>

> **Warrior in 60 seconds:**

>

> 6 x fullcounter = 3 sec dmg negation

> 3 x Shield blocks = 9 sec dmg negation

> 2 x endure pains = 10 sec dmg negation

> 6 x GS#3 = 4,5 sec dmg negation

> with vigor and Food 10 dodges = 7,5 sec dmg Negation

> __________

> 34 sec dmg Negation in 60 seconds

>

> **57% Uptime**

>

> **Mirage in 60 seconds:**

>

> 1 x distortion = 3 sec dmg negation

> 6x blurred frenzy = 6 sec dmg negation

> with vigor and Food 10 dodges = 10 sec dmg Negation

> 2 x the Prestige = 6 sec invis

> __________

> 25 sec dmg Negation or not visible(invul against every non aoe skill)

>

> **~42% Uptime**

>

> **Holosmith in 60 seconds:**

>

> 2 times Elixier s = 6 sec invul

> 2 x Photon wall = 6 sec block

> 2 x toss Elixier s = 12 sec invis

> with vigor and Food 10 dodges = 7,5 sec dmg Negation

> __________

> 31,5 sec dmg Negation or invis

>

> **~50% Uptime**

>

>

> Uptimes for invul/block/dodge/invis of 40-60% are beyond broken. where is this skillbased gameplay? if you are not attackable half of the time? you dont Need to predict attacks and Specials kills of your opponents. most People in game just spam this kitten. its way too much. classes should have maximum 20%-25 % uptime for that. the current invul/block/dodge/invis spam meta is annoying and i personally dont know any Player who like that. most People are leaving the game because of that, because it is boring and simply bad design and balance.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

Yeah I'm gonna go out on a limb and say almost no one is going to leave WvW over 1v1 balance.

> @"Chaba.5410" said:

>I really enjoy how this game isn't engineered to make you feel like you gotta grind through a ton of RNG or spend money to skip the RNG-spam like so many Korean MMOs, but that's just me.

Precisely. Perhaps there's another game I haven't played or heard of that's cheaper but as far as I know in the MMO market this game is as low cost as it gets. You buy the game, buy the xpacs and you're done.

This is a class balance issue. Ele has a lot of completely useless skills and traits. 1 extra cleanse every 10s or half a dodge roll isn't going to suddenly give ele an advantage against mesmers 1v1.

Lot of l2p threads lately

OP I'm sure someone has pointed this out already but this is because Eles have four separate skill bars whereas every other class except kit engineer gets two separate skill bars. It's about tradeoffs. So with ele you get access to a more varied array of skills but less access to sigils due to the lack of weapon swap. The same is true of engi.

My answer to op is: not entirely. As long as there are paid expansions there will always be some degree of pay to win insofar as the xpac builds are usually more powerful than whatever was already in the game. Compared to most mmos though the cost is very small to stay competitive.

> @"archmagus.7249" said:

> There's a hidden timer before you will be kicked for the map. Simply pressing and holding 2 won't reset that timer. If you release your key on cooldown and press it again, it resets the timer. That hidden timer is to prevent afk farming.

Pro afk treb secrets

Presumably technical reasons for things like aoe caps and no collision.

Well as always one of the great problems with these sorts of threads is that the only people willing to give bg the benefit of the doubt are bg players.

This degree of cynicism is well earned imo.