Sajuuk Khar.1509

> @"radda.8920" said:

> we probably have the answer now. Everyone was wrong. We won't have any new maps until cantha.

> terrible...

Except this is literally not even mentioned, or suggested, by the roadmap.

> @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

> They don't. But I don't see them being able to force their entire planet into an ice age, and the flooding is localized to the north.

> And how many factors of magnitude larger is Primordus than Jormag? Its head larger than their entire body. There is no comparison

People shouldn't take the Primordus head size too seriously. They changed Kralkatorrik's size like 5 times from PoF to War Eternal. Primordus' head was made the size it was for whatever "awe" factor they wanted when you saw it. They will change it 5 times before we kill him for whatever scale they need it to be in whatever instances we see him later.

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> They use a couple phrases in the text. The shake to the core, Earth Shattering Finale, as you mentioned as well as use words like:

> “Dragon minion incursions have thrown once-peaceful lands into chaos, and there’s no predicting where the next attack will erupt.” as well as “an enemy driven only by destruction” is a little more telling that we will be dealing with Destroyers erupting from these areas.

Or, you know, Jormag had admitted that Ryland is building him an army, and now Jormag and his minions can travel anywhere via the Mists they can pop up anywhere, at any time.

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> While it is very unlikely, I do hope that the incursions aren't bound to a singular minion type. It would be awesome if they included some in old maps with Risen, Mordrem, and Branded - either as "old timeline events" or as "remnant minions" (e.g., unchained).

I would like to see this too.

Game scale asaide and all, Orr was huge, an entire nation, there should still be tons of Risen there that would crawl out under the leadership of some powerful Zhaitan minions. Same thing with the Branded, and Mordrem. And even if Primordus is asleep, the Destroyers could also start rising up to try to find more magical energy to feed to their master to try to reawaken him.

> @"Dragon Priestess.9760" said:

> 'Truce' Either we are going to repair our relationship with Bangar, or listen to Jormag's words.

I'd eat my show if we make peace with that giant Popsicle dragon after everything its done.

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> Given by the text of the preview, it’s clear that Primordus will be a large component of these new chapters.

What gives you that idea?

> @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

> Because according to Aurene, Primordius is flying around in the Mists planning something. And on the whole. Jormag has always been the less destructive dragon.

Uhh no. Aurne has never mentioned Primordus, she has said Jormag is moving around the Mists planning something.

> @"Randulf.7614" said:

> Truce so soon after the events of last episode would jarring. Plus a truce with a Dragon known to manipulate would just be foolish.

>

> We could be uniting the rest of Charr or all races who might be in conflict (perhaps including Centaur) in a truce to combat this threat.

Yeah, if we make a truce with anyone it would be Bangar IMO. Bangar got screwed, knows it, and hates Jormag. But his name would still carries some power in the remaining Dominion/Frost Legion Charr. That or, as we saw in the ICebrood Saga trailer, and as you mentioned yourself, centaurs.

> @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

> It would. But killing the dragons is currently out of the question. And the only way we got Primordius to back off last time was by using Jormag.

WE didn't do anything. Blathazar used Taimi's machine to try to harness the powers of the dragons, and that caused them both to go into hibernation.

> @"Stephen.6312" said:

> Why do you think that Aurene is an Elder Dragon?

She has literally been called such several times now.

> @"Bast.7253" said:

> Unless it's intentionally spent all this time avoiding focus to collect as much magic and forces as possible? If you become stronger when the others die it's kind of like that Halloween event right? Just find a nice little cubby somewhere and hide until the rest have been eliminated! That is one thing we have to consider though. Originally it posed no more threat, but with the death of others they become increasingly more of a threat. And given we don't know the location it's possible it could have absorbed the most of each elder dragon so far. Kralk, right in the ocean. Balthazar, Zhaitan right in the ocean, and Mordremoth right by the ocean. It's presumed he's much farther away but given that Jormag was able to obtain magic from Kralk, Mordremoth, and Zhaitan's death, it's reasonable to assume that Steve could have too. And potentially more as we really don't know where he is. That being said I'd imagine Primordus would have gotten a substantial power boost as well given he was last in the Fire Island chain which is really only furthest away from Kralk. I can't remember why Primordus was in that area but if he relocated due to the death of Zhaitan and Mordremoth it's reasonable to assume that Steve did as well. Jormag's really the only one that didn't move much.

Well, Jormag was much closer to the deaths of Zhaitan and Mordremoth then Bubbles was, and its specifically made a plot point in S3 that its so far away that it absorbed little of either's power after they died(at least compared to Primordus). And while we don't know Bubbles exact location, it seems to be far closer to Cantha then Tyria, so I would presume the same would be trube of Balthazar and Kralkatorrik's deaths also. Yes Bubbles would have gotten power from it, but seemingly only the minority.

Primordus moved to the Ring of Fire because there is a leyline going from there to where Mordremoth died in Dragon's stand. It moved there to feed off of the released power. IIRC, That_Shaman found that Anet even modeled a leyline tunnel in Draconis Mons going off into the direction of Dragon's Stand. As it stands, Primordus is the one most likely to be the super elder dragon of doom, not Bubbles.

> @"Telwyn.1630" said:

> Some one sees that like I did Norman is no more better then the other dragons.

I've never really understood the need to try to make Bubbles the unstoppable doom dragon of doom. If it was that powerful we surely would have seen something of it by now.

Its going to pose its own challenges sure, but nothing worse then any of the other dragons.

> @"Hypnowulf.7403" said:

> snip

I'm sorry but what?

* Asgeir not killing Jormag had nothing to do with compassion. He never liked, or cared about, Jormag, or Jormag's life.

* Jormag wasn't simply defending itself, it attacked first, and has attacked first since then. Its the other races who are defending themselves.

* The Claws of Jormag have attacked people first many times.

* The Elder Dragons don't fear death in the first place. Kralk states this very clear. So fear for its life isn't a motivation for Jormag.

* Jormag isn't diplomatic. A diplomat wouldn't' constantly be manipulating people to wander out into the wastes to die, or using people's dead relative's voices against them.

* The Spirit's of the Wild aren't the ones who made the prophecy. You aren't being blindly obedient by following it. Guild Wars is a realm of magic, and fates. That's just how things work.

* History repeating itself would be Braham giving up the fight as Asgeir did, letting a genocidal dragon continue its rampage. changing history would be stopping an entity of such evil.

* Jormag is the enemy though. Just look at all the horrible stuff its done in Icebrood Saga despite no one being actively going after it beforehand.

> @"radda.8920" said:

> it's a matter of perspective. I find it much more cruel to corrupt living things and use them as toys for eternity by having them kill their own people.

> At least primordius seeks to simply kill living beings and allows them to join the mists without becoming puppets

Sure, but the ultimate point was that Primordus seems to put the least value in mortal life of all the Elder Dragons. So awakening him to have him fight Jormag for us isn't a good idea. Primrodus would be the greater evil in that situation.

> @"Stephen.6312" said:

> Look, I think that the business of Braham and Jormag needs to be put on hold. We've got the DSD to contend with and, in my opinion, there are very few armies capable of withstanding an assault from aquatic spellcasters. Jormag has managed to amass a diverse range of fighters, primarily norn and charr, arguably the most competent warriors of the Pact.

I don't see why the DSD's armies would be any more or less competent/powerful then any of the other dragon's armies. Even if it was, I don't see why we would make the proverbial deal with the devil to try to stop it instead of doing what we have done with any of the other dragon's armies, which is make new allies, and develop new technology, and tactics, to defeat it. We have an entire continent of possible new allies in Cantha.

>All of this makes me contemplate the ultimate fate of Aesgir. I believe that, with time, Aesgir came to realize that Jormag really does intend to preserve the norn race, not by corrupting them either. Sure, many norn have been corrupted, but not all of them. Furthermore, Aesgir concluded that some of his own people must be conscripted in order to save all of his people. What do I think happened to Aesgir? He became the Fraenir, willingly sacrificing himself to save his people.

If anything, "A Burden" suggests the opposite. The last lines are even

>"I'm doing the right thing. I'm giving the norn a future. Why does it feel as though I gave up? As though I could've won, if only I'd pushed through the pain and exhaustion?

>The voice spoke true. I'll carry this burden for as long as I live. I only hope whoever takes it up when I'm gone can handle the weight of it. "

Showing Asgeir believed he did the wrong thing by listening to Jormag.

Besides, what has Jormag done to suggest its being honest?

* It lied to Asgier about leaving the Norn alone if they went south

* It manipulated Bangar into starting a massively devastating civil war among the Charr, which also led to the genocide of the Drizzlewood communities

* It used its "Voice" to manipulate the soldiers of Jora's Keep into killing each other

* It also used its "Voice" to manipulate the Kodan, and Vigil Relief soldiers, into walking out into the snow and ice to lay down and die

* Its mentally attacked Marjory, by using her dead sisters voice

* Its lied/misled Bangar, its own pawn, into thinking it would make him its champion, when, in reality, it made him a slave in the form of its new "Voice"

* Its tired multiple times to break down, and turn our allies against us, be it Braham, Rytlock, or Crecia

* It continues to feed off of the power of the Spirits of the Wild, even though they are clearly against it

Jormag's claims of wanting to help are no different then the claims made by Zhaitan's minions that Zhaitan simply wants to help everyone avoid the pain of death and loss.... by forcibly making everyone undead Risen. And Jormag has done thing but use similar tactics. Remember, as it itself has said "ice forties, ice protects", its idea of "helping" is almost certainly something devastating like freezing the whole world into ice to stop the cycle or something ridiculous like that. And even Aurene calls out Jormag's actions in the latest "Confer with Bangar" achievement step.

Also, the Fraenir is stated to be a Son of Svanir that was chosen by Jormag for the position, so its not Asgeir.

So I noticed something interesting going back, and rereading, Asgeir's journal "A Burden", and how it possibly relates to the Icebrood Saga story, and Braham.

If we read "A Burden", and look at the other lore behind Asgeir's fight with Jormag, Asgeir lost to Jormag because

1. He allowed Jormag to make him doubt his actions

2. His hunting party was killed, leaving him to fight Jormag alone, and thus be alone to be manipulated by Jormag

3. He lacked the physical and mental strength to keep fighting

4. Arguably, he made the mistake of fighting Jormag too head on, allowing all of the above to happe

When it comes to Braham, we have already been told by the Spirits of the Wild that Braham is now part of a prophecy, and that either Braham must kill Jormag, or Jormag will kill him. Braham has also mimicked several of Asgeir's actions, both by getting a weapon infused with Jotun fire magic, as Asgeir had, and by getting the Spirits of the Wild to channel their energies through him to slay one of Jormag's champions(Drakkar) as Asgeir did Frostfang.

Looking back on episodes 1 and 2

1. In Episode 1 we got to interact with Raven, and take Raven's trials. During these trials the Commander comments they are unsure if the decision they made was correct, we began to doubt our choices. However, Jhavi reminds us that Raven teaches there are no right answers to any situation.

2. In Episode 2 we got to interact with Wolf. Wolf made the Commander and Braham work together to get the Lost Spirit's powers, and pushed Braham to consider his "party". This allowed Braham to turn into the Wolf at the end, when the Commander's life was threaten by Bangar.

I suspect that in episode 5 and 6 we will meet with Bear and Snow Leopard. Bear will make us do something that requires us to keep pushing through the pain and exhaustion to keep fighting, and Snow Leopard will have us do something that encourages us to use non-direct tactics against Jormag, as fits with those two spirits ascribed elements.

Essentially, the Spirits are teaching the Commander and Braham how not to fail in the inevitable fight against Jormag as Asgeir did. Getting the bow back, and Braham being able to channel the Spirit's powers, will be key in defeating Jormag, as well as the lessons learned here.

> @"Thornwolf.9721" said:

> What if we wake up Primordus?

This would be the worst option possible.

Zhaitan, Mordremoth, Kralk, and Jormag, have all corrupted the living to expand their forces/territory, and generally seem to WANT to corrupt the living to do so, despite being able to make purely elemental minions out of nothing.

Primrodus on the other hand is the exact opposite. He has never directly corrupted a living being that we know of, and makes no effort to corrupt the land around him either. Primordus is the one least involved with mortal affairs, only because he is the one most intrested in simply burning the whole world down. Primordus is quite possibly the WORST of the Elder Dragons due to this, the greatest of evils. Arguably even more psychotic then Kralk was, because, even with his torment, Kralk wasn't that genocidal.

Primordus is easily the LAST dragon you want awake, period. If anything, if Jormag seriously offers us the chance to kill Priomordus, we should take it, then immediately turn around kill Jormag after. As little as you should trust Jormag, you should trust Primordus even LESS.

This is also why I suspect Primrodus will be last.

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

>We're talking about Primordus' minion type count before he is the primary antagonist

Except your whole argument thus far is that Primrodus has gotten so much central time already, while Kralk got little in PoF, that we can kill him and Jormag off in the next few episodes and be done with it, which would necessitate Primordus has had the development to be on the same level of development as the other dragons, which he isn't. Even if you remove "War Eternal" from the mix, Prmordus has nowhere near the level of creature diversity as Kralk.

>Because it's an effect of Primordus' direct presence.

And its been used all of once compared to the mutiple maps using the other dragon's abilities. And its als not even something pointed out i nthe narrative to be of Primordus, unlike the others.

>That's rather proof of my argument more than yours. Aurene was the core plot in these elements, not Kralkatorrik.

Also incorrect. Kralkatorik was the core plot in all these elements, as all of this was targeted to defeating and replacing him. Be it part of Glint's plan, Balthazar's ambition, or our own agenda, all of these plots elements were centered around Kralk.

>Sure, there were some people recruited for fighting Kralkatorrik but this is mainly limited to the djinn, who was just finding a better defense against Kralk. Everyone else? It was to give them shelter.

Uh huh

* All those Sunspear recruits that came there due to the recruitment poster we put up

* All the Pact soldiers there

* The Djinn

* Zafirah

Yep, all of them are there as refugees from Kralk... except, no, they aren't. Sun's Refuges started off as a refugee camp, but, if you actually do all the achievements(which I can only guess you haven't?) the overwhelming majority of NPCs in Sun's Refuge are there as part of military buildup, while the Refugee's are just one corner of it. And they make it clear you are doing this as part of a military buildup effort to combat Kralk. Like, I really don't understand your desire to argue something so basic.

> Those dragons don't have another Elder Dragon as their unique weakness. Jormag and Primordus already have an established pattern through Season 3 where both need to be dealt with at the same time, or using one to deal with the other.

Except as you yourself have pointed out more then once, the game has already shown us that Zhaitan and Mordremoth magics work against each other. Showing that the "each other's weakness" thing isn't exclusive to Jormag and Primordus. Also, S3 didn't say we NEED to deal with them both at the same time, it said it would be a good idea to given what we know about their weaknesses, and given that we had a machine that could do it. This is not only a misrepresentation of your own past argument(seemingly for the same of debating everything for no reason... again), but also a blatant misrepresentation of what was said in S3.

> And Braham's bow is decidedly in the hands of the enemies, so it isn't hand waved out, not by a long shot (and this is assuming it's even capable of actually landing fatal blows to Jormag which is unproven). And channeling the power of the Spirits of the Wild has **not** been established at being capable of killing Jormag - Drakkar != Jormag, as Drakkar was kept alive through the Lost Spirits, which is why they could kill it. Take away life support (Lost Spirits) and the patient (Drakkar) dies.

A. Are you seriously suggesting that we wont get the bow back before the end of the season? I know you know better then that.

B. You need to brush up more on the Asgeir legend, the book "A Burden", and everything that has happened with Braham thus far.

Asgeir mentions he was able to slay Jormag's champion Frostfang in a single blow only because the Spirits channeled their power through him, just as they did Braham when we fought Drakkar. Asgeir also mentions he feels like he could have beaten Jormag, had he fought through the pain and exhaustion. Braham has already

* Been set up to be a Norn of prophecy

* Been explicitly told he needs to kill Jormag, or Jormag will kill him. Asgeir was stated to have been killed by Jormag.

* Gotten a weapon enchanted with Jotun fire magic, like Asgeir's.

* Gotten the power of the Lost Spirits to defeat Drakker, like Asgeir did Frostfang.

* Gotten the other minor Spirits to recognize him as being worthy

Like they have pretty heavy handedly shoved this into the player's face since the beginning. The whole point of Brahamn's arc in this is that hes Asgeir 2.0, except hes not going to wimp out like Asgeir did. They have already established mortal hero + enchanted weapon + power of the Spirits = being able to defeat Jormag. This is part of the reason why everyone is after the bow as well.

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

>Exclude the

No. If you have to use the argument of "well, take away everything that contradicts me" to make a point, your point is bad.

>The sulfiric water was caused by Primordus' presence. Devs confirmed it.

No indication in the episode itself, and it hasn't been used across mutliple maps like the Brandstorm, and Jormag's ice storms, have.

>Hardly. Everything you talked about isn't tied to Kralkatorrik, it's tied to Aurene

You mean the same Aurene who was the fundamental key to defeating Kralk, and was the focus of Balthazar in Path of Fire after Vlast died for the same reason? Aurene's plot is part of the Kralk plot they are fundamentally tied together. Just as Balthazar and Kralk's plots were.

>The Sunspear Sanctuary had nothing to do with building forces to fight Kralkatorrik. It was, as the new name implies, a refuge for those under assault by Kralkatorrik's new powers.

This is just demonstrably wrong. The whole point of the Sun's Refuge achievements was to bring everyone together to create a force to combat Kralk. You help build up the Sunspears, get them and the Awakened on friendlier terms, and have the Pact right outside. There is even NPC dialog in the sun's Refuge where people talk about how crowded its getting, and that it shows all of Elona is banding together to fight Kralk. And low and behold, the Sunspears, Awakened(in the Crystal Bloom), and the Pact, are key players in the fight against Kralk in the end. This is just basic narrative buildup.

>If that were true, we'd be getting it at the end of the season, not mid-season.

Not at all. Foreshadowing, and narrative buildup, happens at whatever point in the story it makes the most sense to. Not always at the extreme end of the previous story. It makes sense to do it here because we wouldn't realistically have these sorts of in-depth conversations while we are bashing the dragon's face in(episodes 7/8), and Jormag might not be directly present in episodes 5/6. Having it now, just after he created a new "voice", and we are in a lull, makes sense.

This isn't even getting into how neither the Zhaitan, Mordremoth, or Kralk, stories had us fighting two dragons at once. So the established pattern doesn't suggest they would suddenly do it now. Likewise, the one major narrative reason to bring Primrodus in, that we need his power to fight Jormag because that is Jormag's weakness, has already been hand waved out with the assertions that Braham, wielding a weapon infused with Jotun fire magic, and channeling the power of the Spirits of the Wild, can kill Jormag. As Asgeir could have using the same in the past had Jormag not mentally broken him.

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> "death/vine touched thing only applied to a handful of enemies" but yet "massive minion roster boost". Literally same thing on both cases.

No. Compare the number of types of Risen, Icebrood, Branded, and Mordrem, to Destroyers. Its not even close.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Risen#Types

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Branded#Types

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mordrem#Types

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Icebrood#Types

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Destroyer#Types

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

>"new area wide mechanics like the Fury of the Brandstorm," which is different from Draconis Mons' water how?

You mean besides that the Fury of the Brandstorm is something generated by Kralk's magic, while the sulphuric water is a wholly natural reaction to being in a volcano? One comes from the dragon, the other doesn't.

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

>"The singular Stone Dwarf expanded nothing on the dwarves as a whole, and was just a remote one off like Odgen is" "the continued exploration of Vlast, Glint, Glint's Lair, the Dragonblood Spear, etc" - guess what else is a remote one off? I mean, the Glint's Lair, Vlast, and Glint - they were one and done characters and locations. The Dragonsblood Spear could be argued the same, in all honesty.

Except Rhoban was literally a one off in S3, that had nothing to do with the overall plot, or even Primordus. Whereas Glint, Vlast, Glint's Lair, the Dragonblood Spear, Kesho, and Aurene, all tied directly into the main quest of Path of Fire. All were things Balthazar was after in his war to kill Kralk, and absorb his power, and were tied to Kralk as a result. Its literal apples and oranges comaprison.

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

>Doesn't that rather contradict your earlier statements and support my argument that there wasn't that much buildup for Kralk and that there's enough room for Primordus? I mean, if only one episode properly built up Kralkatorrik, then why are four episodes not enough for Primordus?

Because, again, Kralk got substantial buildup in Path of Fire beforehand. Balthazar may have been the final boss of Path of Fire, but Balthazar was chasing down Kralk, and the actual plot was about covering all of the major Kralk lore points in an attempt to stop Balthazar. Four episodes would be enough for Primordus if Primordus had gotten any sort of substantial buildup in a previous expansion. He hasn't.

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

>Jormag has been showing itself to be acting in two different but predictable manners.

>Little different from Kralkatorrik vs. Kralkatorrik's Torment.

I would disagree with this statement. Jormag's actions throughout the whole narrative have been too premeditated, and methodical, to be the result of torment. Nor has its actions been in any way contradictory, or suggesting two conflicting mindsets at play. Its actions have been wholly consistent throughout, and in line with its nature as the dragon of persuasion. Its just a giant liar, and manipulator, saying things we want to hear in order to lull us into self doubt. Its trying to weaken us, mentally, emotionally, and physically, to make us easier targets in the long run. This is the same stunt it pulled on Asgeir, leading Asgeir to wonder later in life if Jormag just played him because he know Asgeir could have won. Jormag is already doing it with Braham, aka Asgeir 2.0. We see this in our fight with the whisper, and again at the end of episode 4. Making Braham doubt himself, and making Brahamn doubt the need for one of them to kill each other. Not to mention, Jormag point blank states in the newest Bangar conversation that it isn't suffering from torment like Kralk is. Could be another lie, but its not being tormented would be consistent with what we have seen.

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

>Hell, "gathering our forces" is ALWAYS done off-screen between episodes. "our forces" are always just there and present.

This is just completely untrue. Both the base game fight against Zhaitan, and the fight against Kralk, had very obvious, and seen, force rallying story sections. Hell, that was the whole point of the Sunspear Sanctuary buildup in S4.

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

>There is no way that "Jormag's Enemy" and "Jormag's Secret" won't be involved in the future plot. The rest of the season won't be focused solely on eliminating Jormag. Four episodes is just too much for all that after all the focus Jormag got in Episodes 1+2+4.

Sure they will, just like Kralk's "mother" will likely be involved in the "future" plot, aka, post the season it was introduced, as a future threat on the horizon. Jormag's enemy will be a prelude to why we should be so fearful of Primordus when his story comes up(assuming it is Primordus)

And look at how episodes 1-4 went. Both were one narrative split into two episodes. Episode 1/2 covered the Jormag whisper manipulation plot, while 3/4 were the Charr civil war plot(with other side things progressed in those plots) The final bosses of episodes 1 and 3 were just sub bosses(Fraenir, and Steel Warband) for the larger boss of that narrative(Drakkar and Bangar)

By this same pattern, episodes 5/6 and 7/8 will be one plot split across two episodes. 7/8 being the "take the fight to Jormag" plot, and, if we look at Dragon's Stand, and Dragonfall, neither of those maps/connected stories had really big lore reveals, except right at the end. The story there was just lots of "smash the dragon" military action. I don't really expect episodes 7/8 to be big lore wise, mostly just doing to be military action steps. That leaves episodes 5/6 to cover to cover all the actual remaining lore bits of IBS, from the Charr leadership, the spirits, Braham, the prophecy, getting the bow back, etc, and all of that will likely be tied to some narrative of Jormag coming out of the Mists somewhere to try to do something, us going there to stop it, maybe have Ryland be the big boss of episode 6.

With whatever plan Jormag tries to enact in 5/6 stopped, the lore reveals we get there, and whatever magical mcguffins we find, we will be in the position to take the fight to the dragon directly, leading to the big military campaign in episodes 7/8. Episode 8 will end with some big lore reveal about something, and either lead into EoD, or set up for maybe a EoD prologue chapter. Or at least it will be narrative set up they sit on until Primordus' story comes up.

If Primordus comes up at all in IBS, it will be in episodes 5/6, with Jormag doing something like trying to take advantage of Pri's hibernation to kill it, and remove his biggest enemy. But we will almost certainly stop that from happening, and, in the process, get weaponized Primordus juice to use against Jormag in 7/8. Primordus won't be narratively dealt with, he'll just be a background feature in the Jormag plot.

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> ANet described the season as being about the Commander having threats on all sides - namely, the White Mantle, Primordus, and Jormag. So they were collectively "the antagonists". Unfortunately, ANet's adherence to so few episodes and using the triple trouble threat to bring in a fourth threat of Balthazar that wipes out the three threats, results in those three threats not getting much focus individually.

Which is pretty much what I said. Season 3 was a "cleaning house" narrative to either get rid of(White Mantle) or push back(Jormag/Primordus) the remaining higher level threats in Tyria proper, so it made more sense for us to go on an extended excursion into the Desert/Elona without us having to go "well what about X?"

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

>I would disagree. Primordus got way more development in Season 3 than Kralkatorrik got in Path of Fire. From attacking Aurene to relocating to new powers, to his unique weakness, and even bringing back the stone dwarfs (via Rhoban and his dead colleges at Ember Bay), whereas Kralkatorrik in Path of Fire was just about how he moved and what his weakness was; unless you're arguing about Glint's Legacy being part of Kralk's story, which personally I disagree because it's part of all Elder Dragons' stories (or at the very least, part of Mordremoth's, Primordus', and Kralkatorrik's).

>If you combine Path of Fire and Season 4, then yes, Kralk got more development than Primordus in Season 3. Probably equal if you only count PoF + Episodes 1 and 2 of S4 (since Kralk was complete MIA in Ep3).

I honestly see it the opposite. I don't feel like Primordus got much real development in S3. The death/vine touched thing only applied to a handful of enemies, and was barely explored. The singular Stone Dwarf expanded nothing on the dwarves as a whole, and was just a remote one off like Odgen is. And Pri's weakness was explored about as much as Jormag's was. Not to mention the complete lack of actually going into the depths to see one of the ancient Asura mega-cities I would expect from a Primordus story.

Kralk on the other hand got pretty much everything I would have expected out of his story in Path of Fire. The massive minion roster boost, new area wide mechanics like the Fury of the Brandstorm, the continued exploration of Vlast, Glint, Glint's Lair, the Dragonblood Spear, etc. Honestly, you move the Dragonsblood weapon forge from Thunderhead into Kesho or w/e, and you would have most everything set up to kill Kralk in PoF. Which is part of the reason why S4 did little to expand on Kralk IMO, besides just taking his power up to an absurd degree. Episodes 1-4 were more about Elona then anything else, getting rid of Joko in Eps1-3, then getting all the disparate groups together into something cohesive in episode 4. Episode 5 was "dude weapons", and us trying to kill Kralk. Episode 6 was the only one that really expanded on Kralk's lore, and that came entirely in the last minute reveal of his torment, and the idea of "mother"

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

>With how things have gone so far, I feel like it'll be Jormag that'll still be around as a redeemed relic of the last system, if there is one. Especially if "Jormag's Enemy" talk ends up being the predictable and boring outcome of naming Primordus as such, this would no doubt push the plot of Episodes 5-8 to be involving Primordus.

Jormag has shown itself far too much of a habitual liar, and people destroyer, for me to see it as being redeemable. That would be the hardest narrative sell I think the game would have ever done, or ever could do, should they go that route. After

* Lying to Asgier about leaving the Norn alone if they went south

* Manipulating Bangar into starting a horribly destructive civil war among the Charr, which also led to the genocide of the Drizzlewood communities.

* Manipulating the Vigil soldiers at Jora's Keep into killing each other

* Manipulating the Kodan at Still Waters Speaking into wandering out into the wastes to die

* Mentally attacking Marj using her dead sister's voice

* The forcible continued consumption of the Lost Spirit's power against their will

* The constant attempts to psychological demoralization

There's not been a single thing in IBS that makes Jormag look redeemable, or even tolerable. If anything, IBS has constantly made Jormag look like the WORST of the Elder Dragons. The other ED's have at least been honest in their actions thus far. Jormag's just a horrible liar.

The plots of episode 5-8 will most likely be

* 5-6 cleaning up the Charr leadership question, dealing with Owl's return, the major spirits almost getting corrupted, and Braham/the prophecy

* 7-8 Us actually dealing with Jormag and its BS. Gathering our forces, going somewhere to actually fight the beast, having an expanded meta across releases like Drizzlewood, and probably some last minute/chapter 8 reveal about something Jormag knows about the Mists, or Tyria, or w/e, that will tie into EoD, and ending the Dragon cycle for good.

With the Ryland stuff thrown in there somewhere. If Primrodus does make a bigger appearance in IBS, it will be us going to it to harvest some of its energy to weaponize against Jormag, not us actually dealing with it narratively.

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> Primordus - though it may be disappointing - doesn't have to deal with the asura or Depths. Season 3 dealt quite a bit with Primordus, but had nothing on the Depths and the asura's interaction was really just limited to Taimi and Episode 2 (I am not counting the Inquest of Episode 5 because they were there for Balthazar, not Primordus, and had no involvement in the golden path of the episode). Similarly, despite putting Jormag to sleep, Season 3 barely touched Jormag, and brought Balthazar up for just 2.5 episodes.

>

> We're still 4 episodes and 1 intermission left - at least - of the Icebrood Saga. This is long enough to bring in Primordus as a main focus for as long as Kralkatorrik was in Season 4 (which was 3 episodes).

>

> I could see the End of Dragons being a red herring as you suggest, but when you add in "the cycle is reborn", it seems pretty heavy handed to be about the Elder Dragon and the cycle of dragonrises, with "reborn" indicating that the old cycle is gone. So I personally am doubtful of that conclusion.

Season 3 had Primrodus in it, but it really wasn't about Primordus. Season 3 was a "lets clean stuff up" season where Anet dealt with the remaining "big issues" in Tyria at the moment so it made narrative sense as to why we would, or even COULD, take a big year+ long excursion over to the Crystal Desert/Elona without having people go "well, what about problem X, Y, Z in Tyira?"

I also don't really see the Kralk comparison being a fair one. Kralk related narrative got substantial time in Path of fire, whereas Primordus has gotten squat in terms of substantive lore development, even in S3.

Well, like I said. The "cycle being reborn" just means we find some way to break Tyria's need for the Elder Dragons to cycle magic. We don't have to kill them all to achieve that. And Primordus can still be around after achieving that, as a relic from the last system.

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> If IBS decides to deal with Primordus then we could enter the dominion of winds as part of this saga as the Tengu have been apparently dealing with destroyers (for some reason) on either side of the wall. Could be the second to last episode before taking on Jormag in Varajer Fells.

I doubt IBS will deal with Primordus is any significant way.

There has been no suggestion thus far that hes been reawakened, and nothing really involving him outside of those corrupted Stone Summit, and a brief mention he fought Jormag in Drizzlewood in the past. I wouldn't be surprised if he gets mentioned as "jormag's enemy" in the "Confer with Bangar" achievement, but this is the Icebrood Saga, not the Icebrood/Destroyer Saga. There's also way to much lore baggage regarding the Norn left in IBS, and Primrodus has his own baggage/expectations lore wise, mostly involving the depths, the Asura, etc. etc. for it all to be done in what little remains of IBS. And the IBS trailer has been fairly accurate in showing the path of the Saga thus far, and nothing in there is Primrodus related.

I am of the opinion that most people are taking "End of Dragons" way too literally, and that EoD won't actually involve the literal end of all the dragons. EoD, and its associated LW season/saga will deal with Bubbles, and Cantha, then for season 7 we will come back to Tyria proper, and finish the dragon meta-plot with the Primordus story, and the Asura/depths lore like Norn and Charr have gotten in IBS.

Jormag claims to want to end the cycle, and help the people of Tyria, but its actions show otherwise. I wouldn't be surprised however if we take what we learn from Jormag, and whatever we see in Cantha, to build atop Glint's Legacy, and find a suitable means to end Tyria's need for Elder Dragons to cycle magic, hence the "End of Dragons" naming. Killing Primordus after that would just be clean up at that point.

Also, chapters 1-4 of Icebrood Saga have been in split maps. The Dominion of Winds isn't large enough to house two split map halves, and I would be surprised if the Jormag fight map is a half map size itself. So I don't really see that working out. The Jormag fight map will probably be a two parter in the Varajer Fells area, and, if not there, then that space between Thunderhead, and the Black Citadel. That space in the Southern Shiverpeaks would put Jormag a stone's throw from both the Charr and Norn Capitals, like how Dragon's Stand was to the Asura capital, and would be a fitting end for a saga so focused on both the Charr and Norn. The map between now and then might be further in the Woodland Cascades, given the centaur presence in the IBS trailer.

Honestly, I find it entirely possible that literally nothing in Icebrood Saga will lead to Cantha. Instead, IBS will end, then we will get some sort of prologue chapter like "stuff going down in the Dominion of Winds and the Tengu are letting people in to help" and we will get some small map in the Dominion of Winds, and thats were we will get our first taste of Canthan-like stuff(outside of the fractal), and that leads to the Tengu wanting to return to Cantha or w/e.

We have 4 more chapters, and maybe one more vision, before IBS is done. If these chapters are more two parters like the last 4 have been, that really only gives us two more maps. The next map will likely deal with the Spirits of the Wild due to Owl's return, and finish up the Norn stuff. And the last map is likely going to be the Jormag fight meta ala Dragon's Stand and Dragonfall. Neither Dragonfall, or Dragon's Stand, were particularly lore heavy maps. Instead they were mostly just big meta events, and seeing everyone we allied with through the narrative coming together. So I don't really see much Cantha stuff being dropped there.

If there is anything in IBS that leads to Cantha, it seems like its going to be a last minute reveal in chapter 8 or w/e. Like Jormag's dying words are like "dude, Bubbles, Cantha, its bad!" or something.

> @"EdwinLi.1284" said:

> Either way I expect the Ministry of Purity, or atleast a certain faction from within, to be one of the antagonist or THE antagonist for Cantha expansion.

Absolutely. Devs don't spend all this build up in GW1, and references in GW2, constantly hammering i nthe fact that "yes, the Ministry of Purity are evil, xenophobic, genocidal, warmongers" and then not do anything with it. If not the expansion then the associated Canthan LW season/saga at least.

> @"Tayga.3192" said:

> As far as I know, Arenanet always used "he" or "she" for the dragons, no? Dragons have genders, and for obvious reasons they made Jormag a nonbinary (?) dragon. That's why sentient races call Jormag "they".

Actually, it was stated all the way back when GW first released that the dragons have no genders. they may refer to themselves using gendered words, but they are still technically genderless.