Stajan.4581 Posted April 29, 2020 Author Share Posted April 29, 2020 > @"Inculpatus cedo.9234" said: > Someone doesn't understand the difference between persistent and instances maps. I know exactly what they both are thanks, your not getting the point is that the game can evolve to this and yes you can have a persistent map that is HARD mode where only HM players are going to, If they choose to play in hard mode when leaving like say LA if you pick HM than you are in HM. The city instance and home maps can all be normal if you want to do it that way. Or when you log in you pick HM and you are now in HM for everything but you make it not possible to take HM before you have completed the story lines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stajan.4581 Posted April 29, 2020 Author Share Posted April 29, 2020 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"castlemanic.3198" said: > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > No, easy mode has nothing to do with it. People are still going to want to optimally play an easy mode. > > > > > > like i said before, with easy mode there's going to be an influx of players who will play it casually, drowning out the noise of anyone who wants to play optimally in easy mode. If you want control players elite players going into the easy mode and running wild all over the place that is easy to lower the rewards a little. just do the exact opposite of the CMs/ Hell you can just put the option in the raid like there is for CM. You can have easy mode normal and CM mode. Really it is not that hard of a concept or an idea. You clearly just want to have raid to yourself and like minded players who are looking to be the elite players. While other players are looking to experience the content and lore of the game. In GW1 I ran assassin and was the tank for many a speed run in the UW and yes it was fun but it was a guild that was trying to achieve our best time we did not care if we were the fastest in the world because we realized it gave us nothing at all. The same thing hold true here, hey if anet makes an event where you win some good loot for being the fastest run or completing the content closest to the 10min mark without failing this would be a good thing as as well. Than you have a leaderboard and statues and what not of the top speed teams and the closest to 10 min and where would be a great place to put that kind of thing well the Eye of the north there is all kinds of space there and it could be added with ease. So you have the easy mode where you do not qualify for the board at all than normal and CM both of which have 2 sets of challenges 1 finishing it the fastest and 2 finishing it the closest to the max time limit without failing. Now if that does not keep elite players out of the easy mode nothing will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keenedge.9675 Posted April 29, 2020 Share Posted April 29, 2020 The BEST option is to play games that suit your play-style and expectations. I like Guild Wars 2 because it's a very nicely engineered game with nice scenery and modest skill requirements. I come here to find like-minded people. Don't go to a sandbox and expect rock fights. They won't be there. When I want harder game-play and better raids, I go to a different game (or 3). While there I get extra challenges but people who aren't as friendly (overall). GW2 built according to THEIR formula. It's doing well because many people agree. Many other people get noisy or agitated expecting them to change. That is a false hope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stajan.4581 Posted April 29, 2020 Author Share Posted April 29, 2020 > @"keenedge.9675" said: > The BEST option is to play games that suit your play-style and expectations. > > I like Guild Wars 2 because it's a very nicely engineered game with nice scenery and modest skill requirements. I come here to find like-minded people. > > Don't go to a sandbox and expect rock fights. They won't be there. > > When I want harder game-play and better raids, I go to a different game (or 3). While there I get extra challenges but people who aren't as friendly (overall). > > GW2 built according to THEIR formula. It's doing well because many people agree. Many other people get noisy or agitated expecting them to change. That is a false hope. Everything I have stated and some of the other will make the game better, like I said before i have been with anet since the stress testing of GW1 and have seen some really poor updates and fixes and re fixes and good updates. You name it I have seen it over to two different games. These changes will do several things 1 get more players interested in raid 2 allow casual players to experience an area they were not once able to because of (name reason) may draw back players who left because of this and also encourage higher end players to try harder themselves to understand the mind set of a casual player. They may even discover that some builds all though not optimum will work and that they were wrong in not excepting casual players into their group. It could work the other way as well. So yes i believe these changes would help the game grow into a new era as it is now 7 years old and is getting older by the minute. They will have to do something or soon players will just stop playing all together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kharmin.7683 Posted April 29, 2020 Share Posted April 29, 2020 > @"Stajan.4581" said: > > @"Inculpatus cedo.9234" said: > > Someone doesn't understand the difference between persistent and instances maps. > > I know exactly what they both are thanks, your not getting the point is that the game can evolve to this and yes you can have a persistent map that is HARD mode where only HM players are going to, If they choose to play in hard mode when leaving like say LA if you pick HM than you are in HM. The city instance and home maps can all be normal if you want to do it that way. Or when you log in you pick HM and you are now in HM for everything but you make it not possible to take HM before you have completed the story lines. That is not how GW2 is designed. You're asking Anet to completely re-develop the game to allow for instanced content in open world maps. Or, create a completely separate GW2 for hard mode which would then split the player base. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombyturtle.5980 Posted April 29, 2020 Share Posted April 29, 2020 > @"Stajan.4581" said: > > @"zombyturtle.5980" said: > > He has a lesser death mark where he goes untargetable every minute for 10seconds. After every soul split and lesser mark the tank must move him across to another side of the arena, this takes another 10s. You cant dps fully during this. > > > > At 10% you have 2 15s windows to deal 10% of his HP if you cant do this its an autofail. > > > > Why should 3 players doing 30k dps carry a 5k dps player through the encounter when they could get another 30k dps player and finish it faster, massivly reducing the chances of mistakes and wipes. Why should you be allowed to deal 5kdps without complaints, yet if the other 3 dps did the same, the encounter would fail. > > You have 15 seconds to do 10% of his HP, now is that his full HP or his current HP that he has at the time? Now if it is his full HP that means that you need to do 3.2million Damage in 15 seconds that comes to 213 333 HP per second for 15 seconds. 1 players doing 30K DPS will do 450K in 15 seconds that means that 3 players doing 30K per second will do 1,350,000 in those 15 seconds. with 6 remaining to take care of the other 1,850,000 that means that 123 333 damage is required per second that divided by 6 means that 20 555 per player is required for 15 second. If you do 1000 damage per second that get you to 15000 damage alone. There is no way that you can tell me that if you have a team that has 3 players doing 30K DPS and a team of not META players doing at least 2K damage DPS that you can not complete the content. It is all about elite status and a chest pumping mentality. WE ARE THE BEST WE DID THIS WE DID THAT. I have just proven with math that it at least DHUMM can be done with only 3 30K DPSers a tank and 6 what ever you want so long as they can do 2K per second players. Nice try but you see math is black and white there is no grey and in this case you are 100% no 10000000000000000000000000000% wrong in what you are saying and it is all about elite status. > > Would you like to try again. > > Why should they carry, well lets see they are not carrying they are working together, no matter how much damage you do you are still working together some deal more some deal less it is all still damage. If the content is completed it is completed you do not get anything for finishing it in 30 seconds you get the same kitten loot. You may get a little more loot finishing it faster over and over again sure but if that is the case you are looking at elitists again and if you say no than you are blind to what working together means. Plus again you did not answer my community questions yet again. > So you expect 3 player to do 30k but the rest to do 2k. You expect 3 players to carry the rest of the team and provide 100% of the work while the rest dont even contribute enough to pass the content. Its not working as a team if 6 players are providing less than the bare miniumum and relaying entirely on the other 3 competent players to do everything. This is ofc excluding the supports who make it possible for those 3 to do 30k. Nevermind that the majority of players do around 20k on dhuum not 30k. And again you completely ignore that those 30k dps players will NOT be able to do 30k consistently as they will also have to go deal with mechanics like chains and bombs which takes on average 10-20s to deal with each time respectively. And these mechanics come every 30s during the fight. Basically you want to put in 10% of the effort of others in the group but expect them to put in 100% so you dont fail. You hold different standards for yourself than your team and thats just selfish. You still havnt explained why the group should take you instead of another support. And why, when you are making the fight harder by being there, they should accept that. Again, full clear groups take about 5-6 hours to kill all bosses. But with 2-3 players liek you in group, assuming they can all dps well enough to carry you, the bosses will take 10-12 hours to complete. Most people dont have 5-6 hours a week to spend carrying players. Their time is valuable too and you are selfish for demanding they give up their time for a stranger. What questions. I dont see them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted April 29, 2020 Share Posted April 29, 2020 > @"Stajan.4581" said: > > @"keenedge.9675" said: > > The BEST option is to play games that suit your play-style and expectations. > > > > I like Guild Wars 2 because it's a very nicely engineered game with nice scenery and modest skill requirements. I come here to find like-minded people. > > > > Don't go to a sandbox and expect rock fights. They won't be there. > > > > When I want harder game-play and better raids, I go to a different game (or 3). While there I get extra challenges but people who aren't as friendly (overall). > > > > GW2 built according to THEIR formula. It's doing well because many people agree. Many other people get noisy or agitated expecting them to change. That is a false hope. > > Everything I have stated and some of the other will make the game better That might be true, but that's not relevant. On the other hand, what you have been told IS relevant, ALWAYS. Choose games that suit what you want when you play them. Don't assume a game will change to suit what you want to happen, even if you think you have the best ideas in the world to improve them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted April 29, 2020 Share Posted April 29, 2020 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"castlemanic.3198" said: > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > No, easy mode has nothing to do with it. People are still going to want to optimally play an easy mode. > > > > > > like i said before, with easy mode there's going to be an influx of players who will play it casually, drowning out the noise of anyone who wants to play optimally in easy mode. > > > > > > EDIT: removed a comment that, upon reflection, didn't really fit reality. > > > > That still doesn't change the fact that there will ALSO be and influx of people who still want to optimally play an easy mode. Easy mode is not a fix for whatever issue you are describing. Do not assume that optimal play will be 'drowned out' by anything ... not even the cries of players who get kicked from their teams, EVEN in easy mode raids. > > > > In fact, we already know this will happen, because it happened in dungeons. Nothing about the difficulty of instanced team content will disperse the idea that doing something faster = better. If anything, the easier the content, the MORE polarizing this issue is, not less. > Although, at the same time, the easier it is to avoid it. Because at the lower difficulty level, the oft-used "helpful" suggestion of "just make your own group" will actually work. As it did work in dungeons. > Could be, but it doesn't make what I said any less true. Difficulty will not change the fact that people want to do content in optimal ways. As long as that optimal path exists, players will ALWAYS be at risk to get kicked from teams they aren't welcome in. So no, easy mode is NOT a solution to the problem that the poster was complaining about. It's easier to avoid? Sure ... as easy as it is to avoid it in currently with the same solution ... make your own teams works JUST as well now as it would in easy mode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stajan.4581 Posted April 30, 2020 Author Share Posted April 30, 2020 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > Could be, but it doesn't make what I said any less true. Difficulty will not change the fact that people want to do content in optimal ways. As long as that optimal path exists, players will ALWAYS be at risk to get kicked from teams they aren't welcome in. So no, easy mode is NOT a solution to the problem that the poster was complaining about. It's easier to avoid? Sure ... as easy as it is to avoid it in currently with the same solution ... make your own teams works JUST as well now as it would in easy mode. Optimal to who? you everyone or no one. If it is optimal to the player playing the char than it is by definition optimal. It does not have to be optimal to anyone but that player. As stated before each player has a level they can expect to achieve in skill and those are not all the same for everyone, this leads to players making builds that are optimal to them. Does this mean they are any worse or any better than any other build NO it does not it just means that build that everyone calls META does not work for that player, their play style or their skill level period. There is no best build out there at all there is best at and best for. The best at is a build made for the highest amount of X they can get the best for is the best build that is for the player. Now what one is more important well it is a combo of the two, a build that allows the player to play to a high degree while still providing go results in the x factor. The best example i can give is my Valk reaper. 1 I know I an bad at dodging I know this 2 I am a clicker it is what I do it is my play style 3 my DPS is just a little lower than a zerker reaper as a whole about 6% but my burst damage is higher because i stay in shroud longer and can get back into it quickly with the skills I run. The high HP allows me to take more hits than the zerker and allows for the healer to heal me before I am downed. Now if a reaper zerker does as a whole of 30K damage and I do 6% less that means I am doing 28200 DPS and if that is not enough than there is something very wrong with elitists, it is them just wanting you to run exactly what the META is and as I said the META is a joke because the 1800 damage difference between the 2 is nothing and if a zerker reaper gets downed while I am up guess who all of a sudden has a higher DPS it is not the zerker reaper now is it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted April 30, 2020 Share Posted April 30, 2020 > @"Stajan.4581" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > Could be, but it doesn't make what I said any less true. Difficulty will not change the fact that people want to do content in optimal ways. As long as that optimal path exists, players will ALWAYS be at risk to get kicked from teams they aren't welcome in. So no, easy mode is NOT a solution to the problem that the poster was complaining about. It's easier to avoid? Sure ... as easy as it is to avoid it in currently with the same solution ... make your own teams works JUST as well now as it would in easy mode. > > Optimal to who? There are builds in this game that have optimal performance dependent on the content. The question isn't for who, it's for what. They are optimal independent of who plays them. It's just really a mathematical solution to maximizing DPS output, that's all. > @"Stajan.4581" said: > There is no best build out there at all there is best at and best for. OK ... no one said there was so don't make this into a point of argument that no one is going to have with you. The optimal builds are dependent on content but make no mistake, they exist and there are ALWAYS going be there because of how content is designed in this game. What I said is still true though: Difficulty will not change the fact that people want to do content in optimal ways using these builds and that means easy mode will still have these players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inculpatus cedo.9234 Posted April 30, 2020 Share Posted April 30, 2020 For the life of me, I can't fathom why anyone would want to play with others they consider toxic. Why not create an LFG specifying just what you want: 3 30K DPS players and 7 low-DPS players? Surely, that group will fill up quickly, if the majority of players feels the all-inclusive option is best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stajan.4581 Posted April 30, 2020 Author Share Posted April 30, 2020 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Stajan.4581" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > Could be, but it doesn't make what I said any less true. Difficulty will not change the fact that people want to do content in optimal ways. As long as that optimal path exists, players will ALWAYS be at risk to get kicked from teams they aren't welcome in. So no, easy mode is NOT a solution to the problem that the poster was complaining about. It's easier to avoid? Sure ... as easy as it is to avoid it in currently with the same solution ... make your own teams works JUST as well now as it would in easy mode. > > > > Optimal to who? > > There are builds in this game that have optimal performance dependent on the content. The question isn't for who, it's for what. They are optimal independent of who plays them. It's just really a mathematical solution to maximizing DPS output, that's all. > > > @"Stajan.4581" said: > > There is no best build out there at all there is best at and best for. > > OK ... no one said there was so don't make this into a point of argument that no one is going to have with you. The optimal builds are dependent on content but make no mistake, they exist and there are ALWAYS going be there because of how content is designed in this game. What I said is still true though: Difficulty will not change the fact that people want to do content in optimal ways using these builds and that means easy mode will still have these players. I truly give up You just do not see that the so called optimal builds are not optimal for everyone which in turns makes them not optimal at all. If it does 100K damage in 5 seconds but you die in 2 seconds that build is not optimal period. However is a build does 50K damage and you stay alive for 30 seconds you have just done a ton more DPS than the person that has the 100K in 5 seconds. So yes there can be builds that are made so you see the largest numbers on the screen all the time and if that works for you great. It does not mean it will work for everyone that way simply because not all players are clones and each player has a different play style and skill it really is that simple. This in turn makes not every so called META build the best build because the performance of the player can not match what the build is to be. So that in a nut shell can not be optimal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stajan.4581 Posted April 30, 2020 Author Share Posted April 30, 2020 > @"Inculpatus cedo.9234" said: > For the life of me, I can't fathom why anyone would want to play with others they consider toxic. > Why not create an LFG specifying just what you want: 3 30K DPS players and 7 low-DPS players? > Surely, that group will fill up quickly, if the majority of players feels the all-inclusive option is best. Again all I did was show the math of what could be done I did not say I want to do this I said it could be done and completed. You are taking thins out of context, with the amount of HP in this case Dhumm has you can complete it with 3 30K DPS 1 tank 1 healer and the rest as lower DPS like 5-7K DPS that is all I am saying. The lower DPS does not have to exceed 10K to complete it by the numbers that are given. in the CM version sure maybe you need more DPS I agree with that. But as for the normal one you need exactly what i have up there to complete it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voltekka.2375 Posted April 30, 2020 Share Posted April 30, 2020 It all comes down to respecting peoples' time. You have a role and dont fulfill it, thus resorting in wipes? You just cost 9 people time, resources. Fast clears are a thing, SHOULD be a thing cause the more a fight lasts, the more likely it is people will make mistakes, wipe, restart, more time wasted, more resources wasted, impatience, etc. If you do 3k dps as dps, why shouldnt the healer do 85% less heal, so you need 4 healers? You can twist words all you want, a carry IS a carry. Lastly, (as this comment will probably be reported and removed like my previous ones), make your OWN lfg with likeminded people. Post videos, tell us how it went. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dino.3680 Posted April 30, 2020 Share Posted April 30, 2020 To some of the issues that surfaced in this thread: > Issue 1: Things in open world are too easy and doesn't yield good enough loot. `First solution offered by OP: Making a hard mode with better loot.` This would not solve the problem. It would be better loot, but only for those that are good, not those that has hit their personal skill-cap and find open world to be challenging enough as it is. So the hardcore players that currently are able to get the most loot and profit by the casuals having to farm gold to buy would still profit and casuals would still be in the same old ballpark. And even as it is its more about what you choose to do not the difficulty that makes the loot difference. Talking purely open world here, as the Opening post is for Open World PvE. `Second solution offered: Make the maps that exist already harder and drop more loot depending on the amount of players in the map.` This would only create more problems than it solves, as the players that find open world to be challenging as it is would then be unable to play the game, get frustrated and quit. And said hardcore players that benefits from the hardmode would still benefit from this more than casuals and distance the gap even more. > Issue 2: Magic Find not being effective. Magic Find(MF) IS effective. However a understanding of HOW loot is rolled and how RNG(Random Number Generator) plays a role in determining loot behind the scenes is needed to see that is is. This isn't a very complex thing to understand but some people will understand it easier and better than others. And OP seems to not understand that. First off, Magic Find (MF) is not the chance to get something, it is the INCREASE in the chance to get a higher category. > > --- > Consider this table of loot for no MF(0%): > 0-35 Junk (Grey) 36 in 64 chance > 36-48 Basic(White) 13 in 64 chance > 49-55 Fine(Blue) 7 in 64 chance > 56-60 Masterwork(Green) 5 in 64 chance > 61-62 Rare(Yellow) 2 in 64 chance > 63-63 Exotic(Orange) 1 in 64 chance > > --- > If you have 100% MF that same table would look like this: > 0-2 Junk (Grey) 3 in 64 chance > 3-29 Basic(White) 26 in 64 chance > 30-44 Fine(Blue) 14 in 64 chance > 45-55 Masterwork(Green) 10 in 64 chance > 56-60 Rare(Yellow) 4 in 64 chance > 61-63 Exotic(Orange) 2 in 64 chance > > --- When rolling for loot the server will first roll a number between 0 and 63 and that is the loot rarity category you will get loot from. Each category, starting with the highest category (the on on the bottom of the table) gets its chance doubled (increased by the MF but in this case doubled) and the last category is then trimmed off to reflect the changes. This table would loose the Junk category at Approximately 107.14% MF, meaning that from that point on we are unable to get junk items from places that are affected by magic find. The table GW2 uses to roll for loot is scaled in such a way that the junk category would be completely gone once we reach 1 000% MF (One Thousand). So while a 300% MF does make you loot 4 times as many exotic rarity items, that is also true for the categories below it until you reach the lowest one still available, that would diminish it chances of being dropped. So magic find it not very easily noticed as working. > Issue 3: Legendaries taking too long to make. That is completely dependent on how much you play AND what content you play. The fastest i have seen a gen 2 legendary being farmed is 3 weeks, starting with near to nothing since he had the day before he decided to start, sold out and used all his resources to craft a different legendary. And personally by not going at it hardcore at all have gotten a gen 2 legendary in about 2 months starting from near to nothing (except karma). So legendaries can take a long time if you play very little and spend most of the time doing stuff that don't actually give any rewards. But even just running in Queensdale and killing moas give rewards that can be sold on TP for money, albeit not a good farm. There are several farms that do not require one to engage in endgame content or do repetitive stuff to farm. Doing daily HoT metas, Daily achievement, Daily Home-instance*, Daily Guild Hall*, Season 4 Map meta, Daily World bosses. Or if you want more repetitive farms there are champ and event farms, that can be done both solo and in groups. Although those are not as effective as Meta Events. Repeated runs of Silverwastes Meta, Dragonfall Meta, Domain of Istan Meta. These are great repeatable Meta events for farming, but require a group. For non open world content there is also fractals, dungeons, raids(more on raid later in the post). *These are pure materials gathering and you sell said materials, or save them for legendary Even playing casually if what you are doing while playing is aimed towards getting materials/gold then it is not a daunting process to get a legendary. Earning an average of 35 Gold worth each day (The value of the materials you earn and need for the legendary + the gold you have after selling all you do not need) is not very hard. After 60 days (2 months almost) that nets you 2100 gold worth(remember, materials you have earned counts). Currently Verdarach costs just under 2050 gold. Meaning you earn enough to get Verdarach in those 60 days, and have some leftover. Completing a reward track in WvW does no require continuous play. Every 5 minutes you accumulate reward track points that is saved. When you log out of WvW and log in again later you keep the participation level you had when you logged out, so you do not need to build that up again. Activate all the 1h boosts and play WvW for 1 hour that day, and then repeat another day you feel like playing WvW 5 days total, no need to them just after each other either, and you have yourself a reward track complete for that lovely gift of battle. If you like playing WvW that way, keep going to get some more mystic clovers, if not then stop there. > @"Stajan.4581" said: > Now most not all but most PVE players will not or can not go into WvW or PvP to run reward tracks this is an issue when you need clovers as **gambling is not worth losing the clovers you have** and it take s mystic coin each time you gamble to try and get a return on the clovers you need. You do not gamble the mystic clovers you already have in an attempt to get new ones. When you fail most of the time you will get other materials out that you do need for the legendary or materials you can sell to regain most, or sometimes even earn on the attempt. You can also get mystic coins as a "Failure". On the topic of mystic coins. Yes they are slow to acquire if you are for the task of not purchasing any on the TP, but the in-game market model Anet has made for GW2 is that materials such as mystic coins are meant to be purchased. Just like real life, how fast you mange to get something done depends on how you prioritise. > Issue 4: "Trading Post Guild" Yes there are guilds and even subreddits dedicated to selling materials outside of the trading post to circumvent the trading fee. However they are still dictated by the trading post. Because the man selling his materials cannot charge more than the instant buy offer on the trading post, otherwise the buyer would just buy from there, faster safer cheaper. The seller will not sell it for cheaper than 15% less than the instant sell on the trading post because then he would loose money and would rather just sell it on the trading post, faster safer and for more profit. The seller would also not flood the TP because he would then effectively diminish the potential value of his own product. Also there is such a vast amount of materials selling via TP rather than via such guilds/subreddits that their impact is negligible in the long run. With exception of certain high value items such as some infusions. Mystic coins are a product that does sell a lot via such places but are still sold in vast quantities from TP so while yes the price would be affected had they all sold via TP it would not be by much, especially since Anet has adjusted mystic coin acquisition and usage to try and maintain a certain value of them. > Issue 5: Raid and toxicity First of all, toxicity is not a binary thing, there are varying degree of toxicity. Just like in real life everything can be toxic if taken too far. Acknowledging that meta dps builds are superior in dps is not toxic, saying it is the only viable dps builds is toxic. It is by itself not very toxic to want to get what you asked for. However when someone joins via the LFG if it said "Dragonhunter power DPS" and you play something else, that does have enough dps to cover the dps role albeit not necessarily as much as the Dragonhunter it is not toxic to ask the lfg group if you can join explaining that you do the role needed and can play the build you have. If he then kicks you for not being "Dragonhunter" then that is toxic, and saying it is because he is not META is more toxic, abiding by the "only meta works" philosophy is even more toxic. However being angry at him for not accepting the build you had is also a little toxic. YES there are more builds than meta builds that are viable for raids, it is the overall composition that must meet a certain criteria. However meta setups are meta for a reason they are, if everyone plays them perfectly, the BEST composition of builds that can take that encounter that they know of(They as in the people managing the meta sites for the respective mode). If everyone is not playing them good enough then there might be a different composition that works better for your group. For example for my usual raiding group we use 3 healers on Mattias to have enough heals and CC so the DPS can be pure DPS. We could modify our build but we use those exact build on other encounters and it is easier for us to swap one dps for a healer, than for every dps to swap to a more survivable and cc oriented version. When it comes to DPS count, it is the average dps for all participants that needs to be high enough, if someone is playing a role that does less dps then someone else must do more dps to compensate to have enough to complete the encounter. That dps is not very high, but due to certain mechanics such as Dhuums last 10% that must be a certain average. Also, the benched dps on a golem is not the same as a actual DPS during the fight. For example i play dragonhunter in some raids, when i was at my best i managed to get just above 28K on the kitty golem with key boons and buffs on. However during actual raid due to mechanics, boss being away and not all boons and effects being permanent i was only at approximately 12K dps average for the entire fights. One of the reasons some play roles that have lower DPS is to play support roles to give boons. and maintaining good enough up-time of key boons alone is not easy and not viable for many classes. So someone (usually 2 to 3) goes boon support, often one or two of these also heals, meaning they do very little damage. That needs to be compensated for by the other participants. Now, while there is not a high amount of DPS each other has to increase in order to compensate for that loss, the fights are not static, they have certain mechanics that artificially increase that requirement. Such as Dhuum which at 10% HP (3 200 000) resets the timer to 1 minute 45 second, becomes immune and engages all the players that are still alive (preferably all) in a mini-game where they are sent out of their bodies and need to gather 5 orbs to return to their bodies. They have a time-limit of 30 seconds to do that or that player dies. when they have returned to their bodies dhuum is still invulnerable the players need to coordinate to go out into a high damage zone to interact with some seals to make in vulnerable for 20 seconds before he goes invulnerable again and the seals need to be interacted with again. META dps builds here have a higher requirement for survival than a non-meta build that has a little bit of survivability built in. +1 point for off-meta dps builds. Math time: The timer starts and Dhuum becomes invulnerable approximately 5 seconds later the animation for turning the player into spirits are done and 15 seconds in total for all players to get the orbs is normal. So 20 seconds done already. There are now only 1:25 remaining. Then when enough players are normal they need to coordinate to activate the 7 seals. 3 seconds of running each way with swiftness (cannot count blink/shadow step here since that would require all 7 to play that and then it is back to the meta problem) + 5 seconds activation time for the seal. So assuming all 7 mange to start running out immediately and at the same time. 3 second sprint 5 second activation. another 8 seconds off. 1:17 remaining, dhuum is now vulnerable and 7 of the players are not at him yet. so another 3 seconds until all players are there. for the sake of math lets say all have 5k dps flat out all the time no matter what. With 5k dps each that amounts to 15K dps for the first 3 seconds then 50K dps for group for 17 seconds = 895K damage in those 20 seconds. 57 seconds remaining, then there is another lap of seals 8 second then damage phase again. 49 seconds remaining when dps starts so first 15K DPS for 3 seconds then 50K DPS for 17 seconds again is a new 895K damage taken. he now has 1 410 000 hp remaining with 29 seconds on the timer. 8 second sprint 20 second dps = 1 second left and 515 K HP. By these numbers there doesn't have to be A LOT of higher DPS per player to mange to get the kill. Assuming all players mange the timing correctly. Given the time to run back after the seal and the timer there are 3 dps round of 20 second for 3 players and 3 dps round of 17 seconds for 7 players giving an effective 537 dps seconds. with that number there needs to be a average dps of 5960 per player. Not very much. However consider then that some roles only does 1-3K dps, the other need to account for that loss. So if you want to join a group that has 2 roles that does ~2k dps and 2 roles that does ~4k DPS, assuming these 4 are among the ones running to the seal the dps that the DPS's need to have on average then to compensate for the loss off the supports are 7 772 (close to 7.8K dps). So then to be a help to that group you have to have at least that amount of DPS otherwise you are not pulling your weight and some other DPS have to compensate for that loss. AKA you are being carried. These numbers are not high when checked on a kitty golem. But they can be daunting to get in a real fight with many builds especially considering the time it to build up boons and such again. Dhuum was just one example. But throughout the raids (not counting CM) a group average of 8K DPS can kill any boss if no player dies. (Raid dps not kitty dps) if someone dies than that needs to be compensated for. However due to the nature of pugs. A. Many people do not know what is actually required in order to make a kill and thinks that meta is the only viable option (high toixicity either by ignorance or misinformation). B. The reason for the meta builds/composition is for groups that know that they are all good enough to do it to be able to do it as fast as possible. Some find it enjoyable to push their own records there, but personally i mean that belongs in a static, not a pug. C. They want meta DPS's to be able to compensate for 1, 2 or ever 3 people that die at some point during the raid since they do not know the skilllevel of the persons joining the group. So, if you do not have a meta build, but you know that you can full fill your role, (preferably some extra since some may die) you should be good to go. Either explain to the group the situation, or lie(not preferable, and difficult if they ask for a specific class/elite spec that you aren't playing). If they do not accept you even after you showed insight and humility enough to say you do not play meta but can hold your weight then they are toxic. Regardless of which approach you take if you do not pull your weight in the raid then you are being a toxic player, even if not flaming because you do not full fill the role you signed up to full fill. If you on top of that lied about what you were playing you are even more toxic. Some might employ dps meters during a fight and if it wipes ones and they see a dps not having enough dps and kick him they are toxic no matter what build that dps was playing, IF that dps was not pulling his own weight aka he had lower than the average dps needed from the dps roles to complete that raid he was also toxic. But if the dps was high enough to complete just not high enough for the commanders "i want only the best standards" then the commander is VERY toxic. I am not absolutely sure about this in GW2 but i do believe that using a dps meter to exclude players is against ToS. In most MMO's that is the case and i believe it is so in GW2 also. It is a lot more ways to be toxic than not to be toxic when it comes to raids(and fractals). I have been kicked for not being meta, i have been kicked for not pulling my weight, i have been carried, i have been taught since they noticed me not pulling my weight, i have gotten tips for optimising my play when they noticed me not doing optimally. I have also kicked players for not pulling their weight, i have carried players, i have helped players. One thing i personally have not done is kick for not being meta. but i have kicked someone for joining as a different ROLE all together. (no they didn't just join on one then planned to swap character) I can say first hand it is A LOT easier to choose the toxic route especially on the first 2 days after reset in prime time as the slots gets filled FAST. But it is never right to be the toxic one. But if the build they ask for does something more than JUST pure DPS, there might be a reason why they want that build. So if that is the case and the joiner cannot full fill that side role, then yes it is right of him not to be able to join if none of the others can compensate, but he should then be told why not just get a "Go meta *kick*". Example is druid pusher on Keep Construct. its role is to heal, boon a little and manage a very specific mechanic. if none of the other can do that mechanic then it is right for them to not accept the joiner if that also cannot do that mechanic. But be nice about it also to not be toxic. So it boils down to What, How, Why. They don't accept you into the raid group. How do they do that. Screaming, yelling, shaming. Just kicking silently. Explaining that there is a reason. Why do they no accept you. For not being meta, not doing the job you said you'd do, not being able to do a specific mechanic they need of the last one in the group. How they do it is more impacting than why to the level of toxicity but both do play a role, it is very toxic to explain that they cannot join because they need to be meta because nothing below 30K dps is not good enough, even though you did the nice thing of explaining it. And the opposite way, if they have a good reason for not accepting you. I.E. the class/build you play cannot do a mechanic that the one they are looking for is required to do and they explain that then you get angry at them then you are being toxic for not accepting that you would not be able to play in that group. > Issue 6: Easy Mode. Personally i would love to see easy-mode raid, albeit at a lowered reward state. for example only 1 LI for the entire wing instead of for each encounter in the wing. No need to change any other reward as magnetite shards and Gaeting Crystal are still capped per week, and ordinary loot is just a neat thing to get for a kill. My reasoning for the lowered LI is that getting double the LI by simply doing easy and normal mode would make them too farm-able. They are meant to be something to work for. And having normal mode and easy mode share the loot meaning same amount of LI but you can choose easy or normal, would mean most would just do easy for faster clears and normal would mostly die out. It would mainly be used for the occasional "lets challenge our selves" groups. I personally have no trouble with raid difficulty as it is, but it would be nice to be able to get a bunch of less experienced / less proficient players to enjoy the story that is in the raids without them just sitting there feeling 9 players carry them through the encounter just for them to get the story. Also easy mode would for some/many be a entryway into raids to then later do normal-mode in a way that for the moment strikes fail to do, although the whole premise of strike was to do just that. There would still be a lot of LFG's for groups that want highly optimised builds to clear it as fast as possible, and there would be many players to fill those slots, but for those that do not have that there would also be a lot of LFG's that only require you to do enough so that those that do not play optimised builds would still be able to find groups pretty fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dante.1763 Posted April 30, 2020 Share Posted April 30, 2020 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"castlemanic.3198" said: > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > No, easy mode has nothing to do with it. People are still going to want to optimally play an easy mode. > > > > > > > > like i said before, with easy mode there's going to be an influx of players who will play it casually, drowning out the noise of anyone who wants to play optimally in easy mode. > > > > > > > > EDIT: removed a comment that, upon reflection, didn't really fit reality. > > > > > > That still doesn't change the fact that there will ALSO be and influx of people who still want to optimally play an easy mode. Easy mode is not a fix for whatever issue you are describing. Do not assume that optimal play will be 'drowned out' by anything ... not even the cries of players who get kicked from their teams, EVEN in easy mode raids. > > > > > > In fact, we already know this will happen, because it happened in dungeons. Nothing about the difficulty of instanced team content will disperse the idea that doing something faster = better. If anything, the easier the content, the MORE polarizing this issue is, not less. > > Although, at the same time, the easier it is to avoid it. Because at the lower difficulty level, the oft-used "helpful" suggestion of "just make your own group" will actually work. As it did work in dungeons. > > > Could be, but it doesn't make what I said any less true. Difficulty will not change the fact that people want to do content in optimal ways. As long as that optimal path exists, players will ALWAYS be at risk to get kicked from teams they aren't welcome in. So no, easy mode is NOT a solution to the problem that the poster was complaining about. It's easier to avoid? Sure ... as easy as it is to avoid it in currently with the same solution ... make your own teams works JUST as well now as it would in easy mode. Im gonna argue that, in that its really hard to find a group of 10 players who are willing to form a raid group if they are already not doing raids, and its really hard to find one for anything labeled as casual. Sure you can put up a LFG, but ive done that and had nobody join groups for hours because of the word "Casual" in the LFG. I do agree with you on everything else though. Optimal builds will always be chosen by players who want to complete the content the fastest and to players who struggle with those builds on classes they need to find something that works for them. I love Ele, but i cannot for the life of me do anywhere near max DPS on it due to the complex rotation, so i run Condi SB and do just barely below benchmark DPS. Add to that, the OP is being incredibly selfish in stating that it would make the game better for everyone when really he means it would do so for -HIM-. Im all for easy mode raids, have been since the beginning, it would allow player like me who have limited time and access to other players the ability to at least attempt raids where right now i cannot do so. But making instanced maps like he wants will not work in this game. > @"Dino.3680" said: > > > Issue 6: Easy Mode. > Personally i would love to see easy-mode raid, albeit at a lowered reward state. for example only 1 LI for the entire wing instead of for each encounter in the wing. No need to change any other reward as magnetite shards and Gaeting Crystal are still capped per week, and ordinary loot is just a neat thing to get for a kill. If easy mode was ever implemented i would hope the LI was left alone, and instead of that they reduced the chances at getting the unique boss loot by a portion, as well as the gold per boss and the magnetite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neutra.6857 Posted April 30, 2020 Share Posted April 30, 2020 > @"castlemanic.3198" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > No, easy mode has nothing to do with it. People are still going to want to optimally play an easy mode. > > like i said before, with easy mode there's going to be an influx of players who will play it casually, drowning out the noise of anyone who wants to play optimally in easy mode. > > EDIT: removed a comment that, upon reflection, didn't really fit reality. When I raided consistantly I liked fast raids because it meant my group had done something right. We had had better timing for mechanics, or someone had higher dps, or we kept up the boons better. Something had succeeded so we should figure out what and try to do that again next time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted April 30, 2020 Share Posted April 30, 2020 > @"Stajan.4581" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"Stajan.4581" said: > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > Could be, but it doesn't make what I said any less true. Difficulty will not change the fact that people want to do content in optimal ways. As long as that optimal path exists, players will ALWAYS be at risk to get kicked from teams they aren't welcome in. So no, easy mode is NOT a solution to the problem that the poster was complaining about. It's easier to avoid? Sure ... as easy as it is to avoid it in currently with the same solution ... make your own teams works JUST as well now as it would in easy mode. > > > > > > Optimal to who? > > > > There are builds in this game that have optimal performance dependent on the content. The question isn't for who, it's for what. They are optimal independent of who plays them. It's just really a mathematical solution to maximizing DPS output, that's all. > > > > > @"Stajan.4581" said: > > > There is no best build out there at all there is best at and best for. > > > > OK ... no one said there was so don't make this into a point of argument that no one is going to have with you. The optimal builds are dependent on content but make no mistake, they exist and there are ALWAYS going be there because of how content is designed in this game. What I said is still true though: Difficulty will not change the fact that people want to do content in optimal ways using these builds and that means easy mode will still have these players. > > I truly give up That's a good step in the right direction ... because you clearly can't differentiate what people are talking about when they say a build is optimal and how that has nothing to do with player performance. >You just do not see that the so called optimal builds are not optimal for everyone which in turns makes them not optimal at all. Yes they are because optimal builds with their rotations are literally mathematical solutions to the question of what pumps out the most DPS. Whether someone can execute that build/rotation has NOTHING to do with them being optimal or not. > If it does 100K damage in 5 seconds but you die in 2 seconds that build is not optimal period. How fast you die has NOTHING to do if a build is optimal or not. That's a function of player skill. It doesn't change the fact that a build is optimal for whatever situation you want to talk about. Optimization is NOT a function of player's skill. It's purely academic. When players in teams refuse people because of this, they are NOT considering the skill of the player; they are looking for the player to bring a specific build for the situation the team is in ... and in many cases, they are looking for that optimal build. Is that good or bad, right or wrong? Doesn't matter ... the team is allowed to play how they want ... and if they want people with optimal builds, that's completely within reason for them to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forum Moderator.4372 Posted May 1, 2020 Share Posted May 1, 2020 As this thread has become non-constructive I'll be closing it to further replies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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