Tempest should get a real trade off

[Jeydra.4386]

> @"Grimjack.8130" said:

> Tempest is actually much worse as a 3rd traitline than Water or Fire or Air or Arcane, however Warhorn skills are BUSTED, if you did a Staff Core Ele Vs a Staff Tempest itd be VERY close.

 

Tried it, Staff Tempest still does more damage than Staff Core Ele by about 5%. Which is ironic really, since it's Overload Fire + Transcendental Tempest + the occasional Overload Air vs. the entire Air trait line.

 

> @"Hannelore.8153" said:

> Name one advantage a Tempest has over Core Ele besides extra Stunbreak.Why do you think nearly everyone plays Weaver, which is basically a better version of Core and better than Tempest in every way except maybe support?

 

Access to shouts, Warhorn skills, and overloads. Now it's your turn. Name one advantage Core Ele has over Tempest except the ability to trait a third non-elite specialization traitline. Why do you think nobody plays core Ele?

 

I really don't get statements like this, or "If the tempest doesn't use the overloads, he is just a core elementalist with a wasted specialization." It's as though people don't realize that being a Tempest also provides things other than overloads.

[Grimjack.8130]

> @"Jeydra.4386" said:

> > @"Grimjack.8130" said:

> > Tempest is actually much worse as a 3rd traitline than Water or Fire or Air or Arcane, however Warhorn skills are BUSTED, if you did a Staff Core Ele Vs a Staff Tempest itd be VERY close.

>

> Tried it, Staff Tempest still does more damage than Staff Core Ele by about 5%. Which is ironic really, since it's Overload Fire + Transcendental Tempest + the occasional Overload Air vs. the entire Air trait line.

>

 

5% is very close and proved my point?

 

[Hannelore.8153]

> @"Jeydra.4386" said:

> > @"Grimjack.8130" said:

> > Tempest is actually much worse as a 3rd traitline than Water or Fire or Air or Arcane, however Warhorn skills are BUSTED, if you did a Staff Core Ele Vs a Staff Tempest itd be VERY close.

>

> Tried it, Staff Tempest still does more damage than Staff Core Ele by about 5%. Which is ironic really, since it's Overload Fire + Transcendental Tempest + the occasional Overload Air vs. the entire Air trait line.

>

> > @"Hannelore.8153" said:

> > Name one advantage a Tempest has over Core Ele besides extra Stunbreak.Why do you think nearly everyone plays Weaver, which is basically a better version of Core and better than Tempest in every way except maybe support?

>

> Access to shouts, Warhorn skills, and overloads. Now it's your turn. Name one advantage Core Ele has over Tempest except the ability to trait a third non-elite specialization traitline. Why do you think nobody plays core Ele?

>

> I really don't get statements like this, or "If the tempest doesn't use the overloads, he is just a core elementalist with a wasted specialization." It's as though people don't realize that being a Tempest also provides things other than overloads.

 

I've played Elementalist as main for half a decade, but it doesn't sound like you have. Its true, that most people play Tempest or Weaver, but that's the same for all subclasses, and Overloads provide Stunbreak in competitive modes which is essential. But if you removed that, you'd see Tempest far less, and most players are already running Weaver because it has its own advantages.

 

Here's Core Elementalist meta builds:

https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Elementalist_-_Staff_DPS WvW, rating 4.0

https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Elementalist_-_S/F_Fresh_air_roamer WvW, rating 4.3

https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Elementalist_-_Dagger/x_Fresh_Air PvE Open World, rating 4.0

[Skotlex.7580]

I've been thinking about this topic. Due to the way the elementalist is designed, it's really hard to come with an actual profession tradeoff. For Weaver it works because all elements go on the same cooldown, which makes it impossible to play it as a normal elementalist.

 

Since tempest is designed around the concept of staying in an element to channel its power, maybe they could play with attunement cooldowns. The default is 10 secs to return to the attunement one is leaving, and 1.5 secs before changing to another one. So, instead of 1.5, it could be 3 seconds that one is forced to stay in the new attunement before swapping again.

 

Though a change like that alone would be an overall nerf to the class. Then why not also reduce the cooldown to return to an element to eight seconds?

 

Well, they could mess around with the numbers to achieve the sort of balance they desire, but seems to me that changing cooldowns is pretty much the only way left to add a tradeoff to the class profession mechanics.

[Jeydra.4386]

> @"Hannelore.8153" said:

> > @"Jeydra.4386" said:

> > > @"Grimjack.8130" said:

> > > Tempest is actually much worse as a 3rd traitline than Water or Fire or Air or Arcane, however Warhorn skills are BUSTED, if you did a Staff Core Ele Vs a Staff Tempest itd be VERY close.

> >

> > Tried it, Staff Tempest still does more damage than Staff Core Ele by about 5%. Which is ironic really, since it's Overload Fire + Transcendental Tempest + the occasional Overload Air vs. the entire Air trait line.

> >

> > > @"Hannelore.8153" said:

> > > Name one advantage a Tempest has over Core Ele besides extra Stunbreak.Why do you think nearly everyone plays Weaver, which is basically a better version of Core and better than Tempest in every way except maybe support?

> >

> > Access to shouts, Warhorn skills, and overloads. Now it's your turn. Name one advantage Core Ele has over Tempest except the ability to trait a third non-elite specialization traitline. Why do you think nobody plays core Ele?

> >

> > I really don't get statements like this, or "If the tempest doesn't use the overloads, he is just a core elementalist with a wasted specialization." It's as though people don't realize that being a Tempest also provides things other than overloads.

>

> I've played Elementalist as main for half a decade, but it doesn't sound like you have. Its true, that most people play Tempest or Weaver, but that's the same for all subclasses, and Overloads provide Stunbreak in competitive modes which is essential. But if you removed that, you'd see Tempest far less, and most players are already running Weaver because it has its own advantages.

>

> Here's Core Elementalist meta builds:

> https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Elementalist_-_Staff_DPS WvW, rating 4.0

> https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Elementalist_-_S/F_Fresh_air_roamer WvW, rating 4.3

> https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Elementalist_-_Dagger/x_Fresh_Air PvE Open World, rating 4.0

 

You realize metabattle features builds that aren't ideal, but deserve to be listed anyway because F2P players don't have access to elite specializations, right?

 

Also, as long as you want to boast about how long you've been playing Elementalist as main, I'll tell you that I've been playing Elementalist as main since release - or 1.5 decades if you include GW1.

[Ganathar.4956]

I am starting to warm up to the idea of adding an f5 to core ele. Core ele is just a really bad core class right now. It's probably near the bottom of core classes, so buffing it with an f5 that is removed in especs would not be unwarranted. This is especially with how limiting attunements are to adding trade-offs

[BigEvs.6971]

> @"Jeydra.4386" said:

>

> > @"Hannelore.8153" said:

> > Name one advantage a Tempest has over Core Ele besides extra Stunbreak.Why do you think nearly everyone plays Weaver, which is basically a better version of Core and better than Tempest in every way except maybe support?

>

> Access to shouts, Warhorn skills, and overloads. Now it's your turn. Name one advantage Core Ele has over Tempest except the ability to trait a third non-elite specialization traitline. Why do you think nobody plays core Ele?

>

> I really don't get statements like this, or "If the tempest doesn't use the overloads, he is just a core elementalist with a wasted specialization." It's as though people don't realize that being a Tempest also provides things other than overloads.

 

In PvP/WvW, I'd only prefer tempest for support or perhaps backline staff over core. Core is the better option for pretty much everything else. Core gets overshadowed by weaver, and before weaver people still never rolled Tempest for anything outside of support.

 

To your next question, D/D core ele for example has a better 1v1 matchup chart than you might assume, and can lay down cleave, cc, and point blank aoe heals making it a decent small fight participant. Hence, I run it in wvw a lot. I've never once wished I had access to warhorn or shouts. Focus and dagger are both better in pvp/wvw, and I'm not support so why would I want shouts? The overloads would provide a stunbreak but you covered that already. I wouldn't even want just the tempest traitline over any of the three I normally use.

 

The defense of tempest like it's some immaculate overall upgrade of a specialization here is confusing to me.

 

Trade-offs have come in order to correct specializations that, in the context of Anet's original vision of elite specs being more side-grades than upgrades, have been out of line for years. Tempest already achieves this, and has since day one. You play it for support or you're wasting space that could go to weaver or literally any other line. You gain access to being a support, while your ability to fulfill other roles suffers for the most part. It's already a sidegrade without a drawback.

 

The reason mirage loses a dodge is because otherwise all it does is function as a core mes with more utility, not a core mes that's worse than core mes at everything but support. Same with daredevil vs. thief: for awhile it was just thief + a dodge. Anet had no choice but to slap drawbacks onto these specs. There is no such necessity for tempest.

 

Tempest is not just core ele + overload/warhorn/shouts. It's support at the expense of everything else. Now people seem to think we should just start crippling specs that have been performing as intended already.

 

If you want a trade-off, I'd focus more on granting an effect to core ele rather than trying to praise tempest to the skies to create the narrative that it's been out of line somehow (lol) and in need of a drawback. It's not. It is, again, already a side-grade as anet intended.

[Jski.6180]

The only real atument base trade off you could give tempest is a long goblet atument say 3 sec that is effected by arcain line BUT you will need to make overloads available the moment an tempest swaps to a different atument. As well as making core ele have 0 goblet atument cd.

 

The ideal of having atument be the triad off is not the best ideal as you simply make every elite spec. that we have now and to come will have the same trade off and it just makes classes lose the identity. You play ele core with 0 cd or you play some elite spec with longer cd that would be the only different. So the ideal of adding in an F5 to core like we see on eng having an F5 build in and being lost or replaced for its elite spec would work. You may run into lose of identity of elite spec if you do not update tempest and weaver (the new elite spec if we get one as well needs to fit) giving them an F5 or F5 equivalent. Tempest getting there overlodes on F5 and weaver getting there duel skills on F5 (just a suggestion and maybe a bad one i am only using this as an example).

 

The main point is every thing will have to be updated at the same time or anet will lose what is left of the ele community if they do it in small updates over time. And most ele players do not trust any lost updates anet has betrayer the community trust too often at this point.

[VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.]

the problem is not tempest, the problem is that core ele is just bad.

[LazySummer.2568]

I'm all for tempest getting tradeoffs if it means losing access to some skills and in turn get another set that are literally full upgrades such as dragonhunter & firebrand vs core guard. Or it could be like holosmith where you lose one skill but gain 5 new ones in its place, or maybe rev where you lose 1 skill but gain 3 in the case of renegade. I'm also sure that PvE mesmers face a difficult choice choosing between core and mirage when one gives you better dodges at no cost and an extra set of skills in the form of ambushes.

:) :) :)

[Kodama.6453]

> @"LazySummer.2568" said:

> I'm all for tempest getting tradeoffs if it means losing access to some skills and in turn get another set that are literally full upgrades such as dragonhunter & firebrand vs core guard. Or it could be like holosmith where you lose one skill but gain 5 new ones in its place, or maybe rev where you lose 1 skill but gain 3 in the case of renegade. I'm also sure that PvE mesmers face a difficult choice choosing between core and mirage when one gives you better dodges at no cost and an extra set of skills in the form of ambushes.

> :) :) :)

 

I get your point, but as an engineer main myself, I actually **do** miss the elite toolbelt skills from time to time while using an elite spec.

 

The mortar kit toolbelt skill offers just damage and a blast finisher, both you can find on the holoforge as well (and especially way more damage), so this skill is simply outclassed, I will admit that.

 

But the other 2 elite toolbelt skills offer something, that I wish that I would have access to sometimes.

Toss elixir x (elixir x toolbelt skill) basically functions as a CC skill that can not get prevented by stability, it deals a good chunk of damage to CC bars and also functions as a hard counter for transformation skills like rampage or lich form, since it overwrites these transformations with the moa transformation.

Med pack drop (supply crate toolbelt skill) provides a complete condi cleanse for up to 5 allies on top of providing a burst healing of 7800 (without any healing power).

 

These 2 skills provide things that the photon forge is not able to match. I am feeling like I am actually giving something up for getting access to my elite spec.

 

This all being said, there is nothing hindering Anet to install more trade offs in an elite spec if the current ones are not enough to warrant the access to the new elite spec mechanic. I feel the same way for the firebrand, actually, since their tomes provide at least 1 skill that does exactly the same (even in improved form) as the base virtues, then also adding more skills on top of this.

Scrapper has proven that Anet is willing to give more than 1 trade off to an elite spec, since they reduced the vitality of scrappers on top of replacing the F5 key with the function gyro.

 

But if these trade offs are actually too small for other elite specs is not the point of this discussion.

Point is that tempest has no trade off in Anet's sense, period. And they should give it something in some way, like I discussed with a few people here.

 

I am also willing to discuss if you have the feeling that some classes are not giving up enough, tho.

[VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.]

> @"Kodama.6453" said:

> > @"LazySummer.2568" said:

> > I'm all for tempest getting tradeoffs if it means losing access to some skills and in turn get another set that are literally full upgrades such as dragonhunter & firebrand vs core guard. Or it could be like holosmith where you lose one skill but gain 5 new ones in its place, or maybe rev where you lose 1 skill but gain 3 in the case of renegade. I'm also sure that PvE mesmers face a difficult choice choosing between core and mirage when one gives you better dodges at no cost and an extra set of skills in the form of ambushes.

> > :) :) :)

>

> I get your point, but as an engineer main myself, I actually **do** miss the elite toolbelt skills from time to time while using an elite spec.

>

> The mortar kit toolbelt skill offers just damage and a blast finisher, both you can find on the holoforge as well (and especially way more damage), so this skill is simply outclassed, I will admit that.

>

> But the other 2 elite toolbelt skills offer something, that I wish that I would have access to sometimes.

> Toss elixir x (elixir x toolbelt skill) basically functions as a CC skill that can not get prevented by stability, it deals a good chunk of damage to CC bars and also functions as a hard counter for transformation skills like rampage or lich form, since it overwrites these transformations with the moa transformation.

> Med pack drop (supply crate toolbelt skill) provides a complete condi cleanse for up to 5 allies on top of providing a burst healing of 7800 (without any healing power).

>

> These 2 skills provide things that the photon forge is not able to match. I am feeling like I am actually giving something up for getting access to my elite spec.

>

> This all being said, there is nothing hindering Anet to install more trade offs in an elite spec if the current ones are not enough to warrant the access to the new elite spec mechanic. I feel the same way for the firebrand, actually, since their tomes provide at least 1 skill that does exactly the same (even in improved form) as the base virtues, then also adding more skills on top of this.

> Scrapper has proven that Anet is willing to give more than 1 trade off to an elite spec, since they reduced the vitality of scrappers on top of replacing the F5 key with the function gyro.

>

> But if these trade offs are actually too small for other elite specs is not the point of this discussion.

> Point is that tempest has no trade off in Anet's sense, period. And they should give it something in some way, like I discussed with a few people here.

>

> I am also willing to discuss if you have the feeling that some classes are not giving up enough, tho.

 

and I am putting forward that tempest does not need any tradeoffs, because core ele is just BAD.

[Kodama.6453]

> @"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

> > @"Kodama.6453" said:

> > > @"LazySummer.2568" said:

> > > I'm all for tempest getting tradeoffs if it means losing access to some skills and in turn get another set that are literally full upgrades such as dragonhunter & firebrand vs core guard. Or it could be like holosmith where you lose one skill but gain 5 new ones in its place, or maybe rev where you lose 1 skill but gain 3 in the case of renegade. I'm also sure that PvE mesmers face a difficult choice choosing between core and mirage when one gives you better dodges at no cost and an extra set of skills in the form of ambushes.

> > > :) :) :)

> >

> > I get your point, but as an engineer main myself, I actually **do** miss the elite toolbelt skills from time to time while using an elite spec.

> >

> > The mortar kit toolbelt skill offers just damage and a blast finisher, both you can find on the holoforge as well (and especially way more damage), so this skill is simply outclassed, I will admit that.

> >

> > But the other 2 elite toolbelt skills offer something, that I wish that I would have access to sometimes.

> > Toss elixir x (elixir x toolbelt skill) basically functions as a CC skill that can not get prevented by stability, it deals a good chunk of damage to CC bars and also functions as a hard counter for transformation skills like rampage or lich form, since it overwrites these transformations with the moa transformation.

> > Med pack drop (supply crate toolbelt skill) provides a complete condi cleanse for up to 5 allies on top of providing a burst healing of 7800 (without any healing power).

> >

> > These 2 skills provide things that the photon forge is not able to match. I am feeling like I am actually giving something up for getting access to my elite spec.

> >

> > This all being said, there is nothing hindering Anet to install more trade offs in an elite spec if the current ones are not enough to warrant the access to the new elite spec mechanic. I feel the same way for the firebrand, actually, since their tomes provide at least 1 skill that does exactly the same (even in improved form) as the base virtues, then also adding more skills on top of this.

> > Scrapper has proven that Anet is willing to give more than 1 trade off to an elite spec, since they reduced the vitality of scrappers on top of replacing the F5 key with the function gyro.

> >

> > But if these trade offs are actually too small for other elite specs is not the point of this discussion.

> > Point is that tempest has no trade off in Anet's sense, period. And they should give it something in some way, like I discussed with a few people here.

> >

> > I am also willing to discuss if you have the feeling that some classes are not giving up enough, tho.

>

> and I am putting forward that tempest does not need any tradeoffs, because core ele is just BAD.

 

Hence why I discussed with some people in here that it might be a good idea to give something to core ele that tempest (and most likely also weaver) does not have access to.

 

It would probably be the most elegant solution. They would buff core elementalist by giving them something new added, it would introduce an actual trade off for tempest (which is what I am asking for), but at the same time it wouldn't effectively nerf tempest either, since they never had access to this thing they are adding to elementalist in the first place.

 

They have already done something similar for revenant and engineer in the past, so why not do the same for the elementalist?

[Jski.6180]

I am still of the mind the current trade off for most elite spec is not enofe and my true suggestion would add in a trade off for tempest realty all elite spec we have now and to come.

 

They need to remove a wepon equal to the wepon gained AND remove an equal utility type.

 

So tempest would lose an off hand wepon maybe foces and i am not sure what support utility core ele even has to lose maybe signets?

Weaver would lose main hand dagger or scepter as well as losing cantrips.

 

This would leave room for anet to keep adding in more elite spec with out braking them due to existing effects stacking (your tankly utility being added to your elite tankly skills making a super tank) as well as leaving elite spec feel there own class and not just a replacement for the core classes.

[Kodama.6453]

> @"Jski.6180" said:

> I am still of the mind the current trade off for most elite spec is not enofe and my true suggestion would add in a trade off for tempest realty all elite spec we have now and to come.

>

> They need to remove a wepon equal to the wepon gained AND remove an equal utility type.

>

> So tempest would lose an off hand wepon maybe foces and i am not sure what support utility core ele even has to lose maybe signets?

> Weaver would lose main hand dagger or scepter as well as losing cantrips.

>

> This would leave room for anet to keep adding in more elite spec with out braking them due to existing effects stacking (your tankly utility being added to your elite tankly skills making a super tank) as well as leaving elite spec feel there own class and not just a replacement for the core classes.

 

Giving up an equivalent weapon is not really an option.

Look at the scrapper, for example. The only "equivalent weapon" scrapper has is the rifle, which is the only power weapon in core engineer's arsenal.

 

Now the problem arises that scrapper is solely usable with power weapons, since the barrier generation is based on the strike damage dealt. So basically, you would autolock the scrapper to using hammer.....**always**. Which I think is not an option. Engineer is already the most limited class when it comes to weapon choices, we shouldn't make it worse by making them literally limited to one single weapon and nothing else in their elite specs.

[Jski.6180]

> @"Kodama.6453" said:

> > @"Jski.6180" said:

> > I am still of the mind the current trade off for most elite spec is not enofe and my true suggestion would add in a trade off for tempest realty all elite spec we have now and to come.

> >

> > They need to remove a wepon equal to the wepon gained AND remove an equal utility type.

> >

> > So tempest would lose an off hand wepon maybe foces and i am not sure what support utility core ele even has to lose maybe signets?

> > Weaver would lose main hand dagger or scepter as well as losing cantrips.

> >

> > This would leave room for anet to keep adding in more elite spec with out braking them due to existing effects stacking (your tankly utility being added to your elite tankly skills making a super tank) as well as leaving elite spec feel there own class and not just a replacement for the core classes.

>

> Giving up an equivalent weapon is not really an option.

> Look at the scrapper, for example. The only "equivalent weapon" scrapper has is the rifle, which is the only power weapon in core engineer's arsenal.

>

> Now the problem arises that scrapper is solely usable with power weapons, since the barrier generation is based on the strike damage dealt. So basically, you would autolock the scrapper to using hammer.....**always**. Which I think is not an option. Engineer is already the most limited class when it comes to weapon choices, we shouldn't make it worse by making them literally limited to one single weapon and nothing else in their elite specs.

 

And what wrong with scraper giving up rifle? Elite spec. are specialization in a roll core classes and generalist. If your elite specs. are also generalist and specialization then your elitist specs are simply stronger then your core classes. You should be giving up flexibility when you chose to go scraper or tempest or Scorges. You should have more flexibility as a core ele eng or necro. OR all of this is just power creep and a very round about way of P2W.

[Kodama.6453]

> @"Jski.6180" said:

> > @"Kodama.6453" said:

> > > @"Jski.6180" said:

> > > I am still of the mind the current trade off for most elite spec is not enofe and my true suggestion would add in a trade off for tempest realty all elite spec we have now and to come.

> > >

> > > They need to remove a wepon equal to the wepon gained AND remove an equal utility type.

> > >

> > > So tempest would lose an off hand wepon maybe foces and i am not sure what support utility core ele even has to lose maybe signets?

> > > Weaver would lose main hand dagger or scepter as well as losing cantrips.

> > >

> > > This would leave room for anet to keep adding in more elite spec with out braking them due to existing effects stacking (your tankly utility being added to your elite tankly skills making a super tank) as well as leaving elite spec feel there own class and not just a replacement for the core classes.

> >

> > Giving up an equivalent weapon is not really an option.

> > Look at the scrapper, for example. The only "equivalent weapon" scrapper has is the rifle, which is the only power weapon in core engineer's arsenal.

> >

> > Now the problem arises that scrapper is solely usable with power weapons, since the barrier generation is based on the strike damage dealt. So basically, you would autolock the scrapper to using hammer.....**always**. Which I think is not an option. Engineer is already the most limited class when it comes to weapon choices, we shouldn't make it worse by making them literally limited to one single weapon and nothing else in their elite specs.

>

> And what wrong with scraper giving up rifle? Elite spec. are specialization in a roll core classes and generalist. If your elite specs. are also generalist and specialization then your elitist specs are simply stronger then your core classes. You should be giving up flexibility when you chose to go scraper or tempest or Scorges. You should have more flexibility as a core ele eng or necro. OR all of this is just power creep and a very round about way of P2W.

 

What's wrong with it is that I think it would be a little bit unfair that scrapper gets hard locked into one single weapon, because the only other viable weapon for the elite spec gets removed, but other classes with different elite specs still have several different weapon sets to chose from.

 

And removing core skill types is also not really a viable option because of the engineer again.

All other classes have 5 different utility skill types with 4 skills each (+ healing skills and elite skills if there are any for the skill type).

Engineer on the other hand has 4 different utility skill types with 5 skills each: Gadgets, Kits, Elixirs, and Turrets.

 

Removing one skill category for engineer would mean to remove 5 utility skills, while all other classes lose 4 skills.

To make this fair, you would have to create a new well for scrapper and a new exceed for holosmith, so they can trade 5 of their core skills for 5 new utility skills.

I don't think this all is worth the trouble.

[Jski.6180]

> @"Kodama.6453" said:

> > @"Jski.6180" said:

> > > @"Kodama.6453" said:

> > > > @"Jski.6180" said:

> > > > I am still of the mind the current trade off for most elite spec is not enofe and my true suggestion would add in a trade off for tempest realty all elite spec we have now and to come.

> > > >

> > > > They need to remove a wepon equal to the wepon gained AND remove an equal utility type.

> > > >

> > > > So tempest would lose an off hand wepon maybe foces and i am not sure what support utility core ele even has to lose maybe signets?

> > > > Weaver would lose main hand dagger or scepter as well as losing cantrips.

> > > >

> > > > This would leave room for anet to keep adding in more elite spec with out braking them due to existing effects stacking (your tankly utility being added to your elite tankly skills making a super tank) as well as leaving elite spec feel there own class and not just a replacement for the core classes.

> > >

> > > Giving up an equivalent weapon is not really an option.

> > > Look at the scrapper, for example. The only "equivalent weapon" scrapper has is the rifle, which is the only power weapon in core engineer's arsenal.

> > >

> > > Now the problem arises that scrapper is solely usable with power weapons, since the barrier generation is based on the strike damage dealt. So basically, you would autolock the scrapper to using hammer.....**always**. Which I think is not an option. Engineer is already the most limited class when it comes to weapon choices, we shouldn't make it worse by making them literally limited to one single weapon and nothing else in their elite specs.

> >

> > And what wrong with scraper giving up rifle? Elite spec. are specialization in a roll core classes and generalist. If your elite specs. are also generalist and specialization then your elitist specs are simply stronger then your core classes. You should be giving up flexibility when you chose to go scraper or tempest or Scorges. You should have more flexibility as a core ele eng or necro. OR all of this is just power creep and a very round about way of P2W.

>

> What's wrong with it is that I think it would be a little bit unfair that scrapper gets hard locked into one single weapon, because the only other viable weapon for the elite spec gets removed, but other classes with different elite specs still have several different weapon sets to chose from.

>

> And removing core skill types is also not really a viable option because of the engineer again.

> All other classes have 5 different utility skill types with 4 skills each (+ healing skills and elite skills if there are any for the skill type).

> Engineer on the other hand has 4 different utility skill types with 5 skills each: Gadgets, Kits, Elixirs, and Turrets.

>

> Removing one skill category for engineer would mean to remove 5 utility skills, while all other classes lose 4 skills.

> To make this fair, you would have to create a new well for scrapper and a new exceed for holosmith, so they can trade 5 of their core skills for 5 new utility skills.

> I don't think this all is worth the trouble.

 

Your problem maybe more with lack of weapons on core class then elite spec looking a wepon for being an elite spec. The thing is the only way to have a real trad off is for classes to lose more then just some f1-f5 / variation of them or your always going have some classes with more lose then others.

[Bast.7253]

 

> > > > > @"montecristo.1324" said:

 

> Give Core an Arcane Attunement perhaps? Yeah I know that would be a kitten ton of new skills to add, but that would be a trade off. An Arcane attunement might be fun to play with...

>

> Otherwise an F5 that recharges all attunements but has a 60s CD itself might work.

 

I've always wanted an arcane attunement but I'm not sure what role it could fill.

 

Air seems to be mostly power based.

Fire is power/condi hybrid.

Water is healing and sustain.

Earth is sustain/condi.

 

What role would Arcane fill? I feel like elementalists, weaver especially, could really use some source of quickness.

 

 

[steki.1478]

Why is it so hard to understand? The way ele is designed is to have more skills, but they do less compared to other classes (which was more apparent before they removed damage on CC skills last patch since almost all ele's CC did very low or no damage at all). In order to do damage on ele you combo your skills from different attunements. When you pick tempest you either camp one attunement to overload it (which makes you lose damage because you're not swapping, but you gain other benefits, based on overload) or you swap to other attunement (at which point you cant overload the first one) so it's either or, you arent always in advantage when you overload.

 

The only upgrade you get on tempest is supporting (and even that mostly comes from traits, shouts and warhorn, but mostly because majority of supporting on core ele comes from staff water skills and water spec), everything else is a side grade mechanically. Just because overloads and wh skills do a lot of damage, doesnt mean that tempest has no tradeoffs lol.

 

Have you ever played staff ele in wvw? Does tempest beat it in damage? Never, because your overloads are useless for the most part. So you lose damage, but you get utility = trade damage for support. Comparing builds on a immovable golem (where overloads practically shine) while you're getting buffs that you have no access to (hello more overloads and warhorn skills which do majority of your damage) is pretty pointless. Try fighting an enemy that moves, hits hard and play without buffers/healers and see how much of an upgrade you're getting MECHANICALLY (again, high numbers doesnt mean there's no tradeoff).

[Aenesthesia.1697]

> @"ScottBroChill.3254" said:

> > @"Aenesthesia.1697" said:

> >

> > Tempest does have a tradeoff. If the tempest doesn't use the overloads, he is just a core elementalist with a wasted specialization. If he uses the overloads, he is punished with longer cds. In both cases, there's a tradeoff for being tempest.

>

> What kind of argument is that? The tradeoff of being Tempest is that if you don't use the overloads you don't get the benefit of the overloads? Its literally 4 extra skills that are extremely usefull boon and aura suppliers, stunbreakers, aoe fields and finishers that make it so I don't have to play the ele like a piano to get good results and you're telling me that is in some way a tradeoff? I guess you're right in a way, I traded out stress for relaxation.

>

> The traitline never counts as a tradeoff for other classes so I'm not sure if thats a good argument. Having an additional option in the form of overloads is also not considered a tradeoff because it is an option that is just additional whether you want to use them or not. The skills themselves are not a tradeoff for the class because what do you trade in order to have access to these skills? nothing.

>

> The problem lies in ele's core mechanic, attunements. It's less of a mechanic than it is a playstyle. It's more comparable to thief's initiative or revs legend swapping, which is why I think core ele should get an extra mechanic or unique buff because they can't really trade or alter attunements in many more ways than weaver did, and it will always cause a huge upheaval in balance.

 

I was answering the OP, who said that the tempest doesn't have a tradeoff because the longer cds after overloading atunements, can be bypassed by not overloading at all.

I said that it's a non argument: if you bypass the main specialization's most powerful mechanic, there's no point in going for that specialization in the first place. If you do use the mechanic to get the specialization's main benefits, then you face longer cds, and that's your tradeoff.

[Dadnir.5038]

Personally, I'd do like they did for revenant.

 

Remove _transmute aura_ skill from the weapon sill kits.

I'd put the _transmute aura_ skills on the F skills for each attunment for core (giving the _transmute aura_ skills a lesser effect when there is no aura to transmute would perfect the thing).

Tempest trade-off would be _transmute aura_ skills replaced by the _overloads_.

Weaver would simply lose the _transmute aura_ skills in favor of double attunment.

 

Simple trade-offs but significant nonetheless.

[Opopanax.1803]

> @"cptaylor.2670" said:

>

> > > > > > @"montecristo.1324" said:

>

> > Give Core an Arcane Attunement perhaps? Yeah I know that would be a kitten ton of new skills to add, but that would be a trade off. An Arcane attunement might be fun to play with...

> >

> > Otherwise an F5 that recharges all attunements but has a 60s CD itself might work.

>

> I've always wanted an arcane attunement but I'm not sure what role it could fill.

>

> Air seems to be mostly power based.

> Fire is power/condi hybrid.

> Water is healing and sustain.

> Earth is sustain/condi.

>

> What role would Arcane fill? I feel like elementalists, weaver especially, could really use some source of quickness.

>

>

 

How about this, based off of the Ascalonian Arcane spirits that you see in game:

 

Arcane attunement pulls up 5 skills that do not change even if it is a different weapon. You could do these like a conjure skill, 1 charge each, CD is only on the F5 attunement. You can only recharge these skills when you swap out of arcane attunement, wait for the CD on it, then swap back.

 

1- Ascalonian sword. A standard melee attach chain. No charge on this, unlimited use. 300 range

2- Ascalonian bow 1. Lob an arching arrow that hits hard, leaving foes crippled.

3- Ascalonina bow 2. Launch a series of arrows at your target

4- Ascalonian shield. Hold up your shield and block in front of you for 2.5 seconds

5- Ascalonian staff. Channel with your staff to cause an arcane storm of aoe damage.

 

 

[Kodama.6453]

> @"Opopanax.1803" said:

> > @"cptaylor.2670" said:

> >

> > > > > > > @"montecristo.1324" said:

> >

> > > Give Core an Arcane Attunement perhaps? Yeah I know that would be a kitten ton of new skills to add, but that would be a trade off. An Arcane attunement might be fun to play with...

> > >

> > > Otherwise an F5 that recharges all attunements but has a 60s CD itself might work.

> >

> > I've always wanted an arcane attunement but I'm not sure what role it could fill.

> >

> > Air seems to be mostly power based.

> > Fire is power/condi hybrid.

> > Water is healing and sustain.

> > Earth is sustain/condi.

> >

> > What role would Arcane fill? I feel like elementalists, weaver especially, could really use some source of quickness.

> >

> >

>

> How about this, based off of the Ascalonian Arcane spirits that you see in game:

>

> Arcane attunement pulls up 5 skills that do not change even if it is a different weapon. You could do these like a conjure skill, 1 charge each, CD is only on the F5 attunement. You can only recharge these skills when you swap out of arcane attunement, wait for the CD on it, then swap back.

>

> 1- Ascalonian sword. A standard melee attach chain. No charge on this, unlimited use. 300 range

> 2- Ascalonian bow 1. Lob an arching arrow that hits hard, leaving foes crippled.

> 3- Ascalonina bow 2. Launch a series of arrows at your target

> 4- Ascalonian shield. Hold up your shield and block in front of you for 2.5 seconds

> 5- Ascalonian staff. Channel with your staff to cause an arcane storm of aoe damage.

>

>

 

I don't know if I would really like to add 2.5 seconds of blocking to base elementalist for free. This is an serious increase in power to give them access to something like this by default.

 

Also the whole theme seems misplaced on an elementalist. Summoning ghost weapons doesn't fit them at all.

[montecristo.1324]

maybe an F5> @"Kodama.6453" said:

> > @"Opopanax.1803" said:

> > > @"cptaylor.2670" said:

> > >

> > > > > > > > @"montecristo.1324" said:

> > >

> > > > Give Core an Arcane Attunement perhaps? Yeah I know that would be a kitten ton of new skills to add, but that would be a trade off. An Arcane attunement might be fun to play with...

> > > >

> > > > Otherwise an F5 that recharges all attunements but has a 60s CD itself might work.

> > >

> > > I've always wanted an arcane attunement but I'm not sure what role it could fill.

> > >

> > > Air seems to be mostly power based.

> > > Fire is power/condi hybrid.

> > > Water is healing and sustain.

> > > Earth is sustain/condi.

> > >

> > > What role would Arcane fill? I feel like elementalists, weaver especially, could really use some source of quickness.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > How about this, based off of the Ascalonian Arcane spirits that you see in game:

> >

> > Arcane attunement pulls up 5 skills that do not change even if it is a different weapon. You could do these like a conjure skill, 1 charge each, CD is only on the F5 attunement. You can only recharge these skills when you swap out of arcane attunement, wait for the CD on it, then swap back.

> >

> > 1- Ascalonian sword. A standard melee attach chain. No charge on this, unlimited use. 300 range

> > 2- Ascalonian bow 1. Lob an arching arrow that hits hard, leaving foes crippled.

> > 3- Ascalonina bow 2. Launch a series of arrows at your target

> > 4- Ascalonian shield. Hold up your shield and block in front of you for 2.5 seconds

> > 5- Ascalonian staff. Channel with your staff to cause an arcane storm of aoe damage.

> >

> >

>

> I don't know if I would really like to add 2.5 seconds of blocking to base elementalist for free. This is an serious increase in power to give them access to something like this by default.

>

> Also the whole theme seems misplaced on an elementalist. Summoning ghost weapons doesn't fit them at all.

 

yes the theme is not right, and I think it should be just a buff skill. The idea of an F5 that reset the attunment CD is not bad, why instead of that a F5 that gives to the elementalist only alacrity and maybe ferocity or some dmg buff? It would be something related to the arcane, and it is not op like a instant cd reset, but is still a super useful skill for a ele