So, Josh Foreman just talked about World 3 and 4 on stream...

[Thundabolt.8541]

Josh is currently doing a twitch stream of an SAB developer commentary playthrough, and he mentioned something about World 3 and 4 that I just cannot seem to contain my excitement about.

 

He said something along the lines of... "World 3 and 4 would start glitching out due to interference with the box from Moto's competitors, which would reference the console wars"...

 

So, is that what the Choya are doing, actually datamining the box, and is that what the new glitch features are about? Because if so, that gives me SO much hope for World 3 and 4...

[Ayrilana.1396]

He doesn't work at Anet so I wouldn't read too much into it.

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

The actual ArenaNet current Devs already hinted at more Worlds...possibly. Just last week, or so.

[Danikat.8537]

> @"Thundabolt.8541" said:

> So, is that what the Choya are doing, actually datamining the box, and is that what the new glitch features are about? Because if so, that gives me SO much hope for World 3 and 4...

 

That...would actually make a weird kind of sense, which is pretty much the only kind of sense you'll get in SAB. The scene through the glitch portals definitely looks like the cavern with the genie in it which used to be a World 3 preview, so it seems likely they're coming from World 3. Whether that hints at more is hard to tell, but it would be a strange thing to add if it wasn't building to something, it reminds me of a lot of the Current Events stuff which tied into living world releases.

 

> @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> He doesn't work at Anet so I wouldn't read too much into it.

 

He doesn't, but given SAB started off as his idea and then was developed by a larger team later on (espcially when world 2 was added) I assume he told a lot of people about his ideas for it. I also remember hearing that they have an internal Wiki which includes lots of info and ideas that aren't in the game yet (for example the origins of the sylvari were in there from the begining) which helps stop different teams contradicting each other, or taking the story in different directions. So it's possible there's all kinds of stuff about SAB in there too.

 

Of course there's no guarentee they'll stick with his ideas, someone currently at Anet might have their own ideas about what to do for world 3 and 4, but I doubt they'd scrap all Josh's ideas just because he's not there any more.

 

 

[Rasimir.6239]

> @"Danikat.8537" said:

> > @"Thundabolt.8541" said:

> > So, is that what the Choya are doing, actually datamining the box, and is that what the new glitch features are about? Because if so, that gives me SO much hope for World 3 and 4...

>

> That...would actually make a weird kind of sense, which is pretty much the only kind of sense you'll get in SAB. The scene through the glitch portals definitely looks like the cavern with the genie in it which used to be a World 3 preview, so it seems likely they're coming from World 3. Whether that hints at more is hard to tell, but it would be a strange thing to add if it wasn't building to something, it reminds me of a lot of the Current Events stuff which tied into living world releases.

The one thing that irritates me about this theory is that the miners are choya. We had the w3 preview back in 2013 with the Back to School release, but didn't encounter choya until years later with Path of Fire. Of course it's alway possible that part of the assets (glitches, crystals) were prototyped for w3 back then, and they threw in choya because of Gourdon becoming the festival mascot, but at least to me the choya hint at the fact that at least part of this is a much more recent development.

 

Maybe the idea for the storyline existed as a draft back then, and they've taken it up and fleshed it out with new assets just now? I'd love to have the storyline back (preferably replayable, so I can see it again after so many years) and expanded upon, so if this is the way they want to go, I'm in :) .

[hugo.4705]

He also said what was planned / what would be world 3 and 4. He spoke about adding a mode with each new world like race in w3 and kind of pvp/team vs team in w4.

About the zones, he clearly said the zones were in order: Underground-Underwater-Mine then Graveyard-kind of lab- the top of castle. Inspired by castlevania.

Definitely spoke a lot about them, around 1h 6 min 30 secs and 1h 15 min 50 secs on the stream. He also confirmed that each item have 3 states so 2 upgrades, the one of stick is a flaming sword. Surely other parts, have to find them again.

 

He also spoke about the side story in moto lab rata sum and discovering who is really miya. 3h 04m 40sec

 

Stream:

[Randulf.7614]

He was also known and admitted to, hugely overthinking things and cramming too much because he kept thinking more = good and was quite hurt when W2 was so badly received and the backlash basically shut SAB down.

 

Whatever W3 and beyond is, I Hope lessons get learnt and it isn’t just a mess of too many designs. SAB worked due to its simplicity.

[Eloc Freidon.5692]

Or its just a little flavor that the devs are fixing the bugs that riddles SAB from being streamlined and easy to update.

[hugo.4705]

> @"Randulf.7614" said:

> He was also known and admitted to, hugely overthinking things and cramming too much because he kept thinking more = good and was quite hurt when W2 was so badly received and the backlash basically shut SAB down.

>

> Whatever W3 and beyond is, I Hope lessons get learnt and it isn’t just a mess of too many designs. SAB worked due to its simplicity.

 

Frankly dunno, SAB w1/2 were released during a bad time, ascended stuffs were released simultaneously so I can understand many simply don't bothered with SAB to farm/craft those ascended. I like w2 as much as w1, I may just think that w2-2 is too long, but I can't understand the backlash thing. What is it? Can't find a thing about that even in google.

[Randulf.7614]

> @"hugo.4705" said:

> > @"Randulf.7614" said:

> > He was also known and admitted to, hugely overthinking things and cramming too much because he kept thinking more = good and was quite hurt when W2 was so badly received and the backlash basically shut SAB down.

> >

> > Whatever W3 and beyond is, I Hope lessons get learnt and it isn’t just a mess of too many designs. SAB worked due to its simplicity.

>

> Frankly dunno, SAB w1/2 were released during a bad time, ascended stuffs were released simultaneously so I can understand many simply don't bothered with SAB to farm/craft those ascended. I like w2 as much as w1, I may just think that w2-2 is too long, but I can't understand the backlash thing. What is it? Can't find a thing about that even in google.

 

W2 back then was quite a bit longer and harder than it it is now. Many people found the fun was zapped out of it by the length and unforgiving level design. A lot of that was eventually redesigned, but it was an utter mess on first release

 

It’s still a poor world that doesn’t mesh very well and zone 2 is twice the length it needs to be though

[Danikat.8537]

> @"Randulf.7614" said:

> He was also known and admitted to, hugely overthinking things and cramming too much because he kept thinking more = good and was quite hurt when W2 was so badly received and the backlash basically shut SAB down.

>

> Whatever W3 and beyond is, I Hope lessons get learnt and it isn’t just a mess of too many designs. SAB worked due to its simplicity.

 

Personally I hope they find a compromise. One of the things I really like about SAB is how much stuff is in there, with hidden chests, shortcuts which act like (very basic) mini games, hidden rooms and areas etc. etc. and all the different mechanics. But I also agree that originally zones in World 2 took too long to complete.

 

But I think it's entirely possible to compromise between the two by making the main path which is required to complete the level relatively short and then including all kinds of other stuff as optional extras around it, in a way that makes it possible to get back to the main path whenever you want to so if you just want to do one extra bit you're not now stuck on an alternate route which is going to take ages. Aside from 2-2 and 2-3 I think they do a pretty good job of that already, but those two levels are pretty much all-or-nothing. If you don't take the shortcut you're committing to doing the entire of the level the slow way.

 

So for example they could do something like the teleporter puzzles or that bit in 2-2 where you have to get to the top of a pagoda and then roll the giant disc down, but as an optional extra for an achievement or hidden item, instead of part of completing the level. That way it's there to do if you feel like it but if you're not interested, or just want to get something else done and finish the level you can skip it.

[Randulf.7614]

> @"Danikat.8537" said:

> > @"Randulf.7614" said:

> > He was also known and admitted to, hugely overthinking things and cramming too much because he kept thinking more = good and was quite hurt when W2 was so badly received and the backlash basically shut SAB down.

> >

> > Whatever W3 and beyond is, I Hope lessons get learnt and it isn’t just a mess of too many designs. SAB worked due to its simplicity.

>

> Personally I hope they find a compromise. One of the things I really like about SAB is how much stuff is in there, with hidden chests, shortcuts which act like (very basic) mini games, hidden rooms and areas etc. etc. and all the different mechanics. But I also agree that originally zones in World 2 took too long to complete.

>

> But I think it's entirely possible to compromise between the two by making the main path which is required to complete the level relatively short and then including all kinds of other stuff as optional extras around it, in a way that makes it possible to get back to the main path whenever you want to so if you just want to do one extra bit you're not now stuck on an alternate route which is going to take ages. Aside from 2-2 and 2-3 I think they do a pretty good job of that already, but those two levels are pretty much all-or-nothing. If you don't take the shortcut you're committing to doing the entire of the level the slow way.

>

> So for example they could do something like the teleporter puzzles or that bit in 2-2 where you have to get to the top of a pagoda and then roll the giant disc down, but as an optional extra for an achievement or hidden item, instead of part of completing the level. That way it's there to do if you feel like it but if you're not interested, or just want to get something else done and finish the level you can skip it.

 

Yes, I still discover new things in W1 so I'd be OK with that

[Pifil.5193]

> @"hugo.4705" said:

> > @"Randulf.7614" said:

> > He was also known and admitted to, hugely overthinking things and cramming too much because he kept thinking more = good and was quite hurt when W2 was so badly received and the backlash basically shut SAB down.

> >

> > Whatever W3 and beyond is, I Hope lessons get learnt and it isn’t just a mess of too many designs. SAB worked due to its simplicity.

>

> Frankly dunno, SAB w1/2 were released during a bad time, ascended stuffs were released simultaneously so I can understand many simply don't bothered with SAB to farm/craft those ascended. I like w2 as much as w1, I may just think that w2-2 is too long, but I can't understand the backlash thing. What is it? Can't find a thing about that even in google.

 

I think a lot happened on twitter and Josh's own social media.

 

I don't know if I'd say "backlash" mind you, seems overly dramatic to me, but this is the Internet so overly dramatic is par for the course.

 

Personally, I'd still love to seem them split both 2-2 and 2-3 into two zones each, so world two had 5 zones not 3.

[hugo.4705]

But hey! Now thinking of W2-2, you have only to do the whole thing only one time, once you have the glove you can use shortcut eagle. The ninja zone with the eagle is now as long as w1-3 I would say. But yup, of course in trib you have to do everything... For w2-3, would be nice if the gate at the top of the mountain could be oppened with 332-331 song instead of having to go to the three push blocks to access that portal leading to the choice of paths. But the zone is correct in term of length if you go easy path.

[Randulf.7614]

The "backlash" was a huge amount of negative feedback for World 2 which got unnecessarily out of control even if much of the feedback was spot on. The devs tried to calm things down, but in their haste to respond to post after post, things just kind of spiralled through no real fault of theirs to be honest - negative feedback just got out of control and I think in part it all tied into the poor reception LS1 was getting and the hope SAB would be the break from the problems. Allegedly some content got put on hold whilst SAB got altered and after that and perhaps stemming from that, we saw changes to how the teams communicated with the community.

 

It was a short backlash, but one that made a lot of noise at the time during a time where negativity was fairly rife anway

 

There's more info from various interviews post- the time. At this juncture it doesn't really matter, but there are lessons to be learnt from building future SAB content. It is meant to festival level stuff and doesn't need to be over thought. Short, simple design layered with secrets and quick nods to the things it takes inspiration from is where SAB works best.

[Zaxares.5419]

That was quite an informative video. Thanks for sharing! :)

 

I agree that the direction SAB took with World 2 was detrimental, although I think Josh or the SAB team honestly did do it with the best of intentions. They just missed what was the key factor behind the success of World 1, which was that SAB was a short, fun side-activity that you could jump into with random people and be finished with under 30 mins or so. If you were not so good with jumping, no problem! You just needed 1 person to make it to the checkpoint and everybody else can be teleported to that spot. It was welcoming, in other words.

 

World 2 was built under the assumption that "bigger, longer, harder!" was what players wanted, and for a smaller sub-group, it was (the people for whom Trib Mode was made), but for the wider GW2 community, it became too long, too hard and too time-consuming. The World 2 zones feel a lot longer than they need to be; 2-1 could have been split into 2 zones, for instance, before and after the raft ride. 2-2 feels WAY too long, with a lot of unnecessary puzzles. (Was it REALLY necessary to have players do the octopus puzzle twice, for instance?) Likewise, 2-3 also feels longer than it needed to be, and the Yeti fight, while fun in its own way, feels a bit out of place coming right before Storm Wizard.

 

It didn't help that SAB is VERY ping-dependent. As a SEA/OCX player, the trampoline pillars in 2-2 are absolutely frustrating because it's hard to predict exactly how high, or which direction, they're going to bounce you. The waterspouts in 2-1 were also nightmarish, but thankfully they got patched so they stay up permanently. The various shortcuts in World 2 now allow you to skip past most of those areas, but future worlds should be designed in such a way that high-ping players aren't so badly handicapped when playing.

 

For Worlds 3 and 4, I'd like to see the devs return to the level design of World 1, which was to have shorter, but broader, levels. The critical path through the zones should be fairly short so it doesn't take much time to do if you're just gunning for completion, but with a fair amount of side-areas you can explore for baubles, shops, secrets etc. If we're going for a more Metroid-vania approach, these side-areas would also make for excellent places to put various power-ups that you can't acquire during your first trip, but you can return to once you have various new items. (I'm still waiting for the Glove upgrade to break down that stone wall in 2-2, for instance. :P )

[hugo.4705]

Exactly. The issue of w2~2 is the bounce of difficulty, you start with a very simple temple just hosting the glove master; then you dirrectly have one with glove puzzle and arrow trap everywhere + 3 spike ball master in additions of fishes. To end with a temple with vaccum toads and even more arrow traps.

 

But it's the goal of tribulation....

 

[Luthan.5236]

It would be nice to get a finished SAB. I mean ... we still have to rescue Miya.

But: Worlds 3 and 4 should not be harder/larger. (Harder maybe but not larger.)

 

I guess a lot of players will expect an increase in length and difficulty since W2 already was more difficult and longer than W1. They might struggle doing longer and more difficult stuff. (Also in Tribulation mode even less players might be in the mood to play it then.) While at the same time they think "we need to make it longer/more difficult cause some players expect this".

 

Hard decisions to make.

I wouldn't mind if in years where new worlds got released we had a 2nd festival later in the year. (2 times SAB and that 2nd one always 4 weeks not only if Corona.) Lot new stuff to explore might need more time.

[Danikat.8537]

> @"Randulf.7614" said:

> The "backlash" was a huge amount of negative feedback for World 2 which got unnecessarily out of control even if much of the feedback was spot on. The devs tried to calm things down, but in their haste to respond to post after post, things just kind of spiralled through no real fault of theirs to be honest - negative feedback just got out of control and I think in part it all tied into the poor reception LS1 was getting and the hope SAB would be the break from the problems. Allegedly some content got put on hold whilst SAB got altered and after that and perhaps stemming from that, we saw changes to how the teams communicated with the community.

>

> It was a short backlash, but one that made a lot of noise at the time during a time where negativity was fairly rife anway

>

> There's more info from various interviews post- the time. At this juncture it doesn't really matter, but there are lessons to be learnt from building future SAB content. It is meant to festival level stuff and doesn't need to be over thought. Short, simple design layered with secrets and quick nods to the things it takes inspiration from is where SAB works best.

 

I think you're right that a lot of the reaction was tied into feeling about GW2 generally. The release of World 2 was 6 months in to the bi-weekly release cycle and just before they finally started adding some permanent content instead of all temporary living story releases, which I'm sure was at least in part a response to players feeling rushed and burned out. It also followed immediately after the Dragon Bash, Bazaar of the Four Winds and Queens Jubilee storylines, so we'd had 3 months of content that was initially advertised as lighthearted festivals but actually included various activities that could be quite challenging, especially if you wanted the achievements (like the Queens Gauntlet) and this was when the story really started ramping up -for example Sky Pirates of Tyria (part 2 of the Dragon Bash release) featured the first mention of Scarlet, and we first saw her during the Jubilee. Then SAB returned, and another light-hearted festival now featured long and challenging content and far more achievements. Oh and they released the re-worked Tequatl fight in the middle of SAB being available, so people who wanted to try for 'worlds first kill' on the new boss, or just wanted to do the fight when it was new now had even less time for SAB. Oh, and ascended weapons were released at the same time, reigniting the whole debate about power creep/stat grind and the pros and cons of a gear treadmill.

 

I don't think it's a coincidence that shortly after that we started seeing a shift in the release schedule with more permanent content (the re-worked Twilight Arbor path and new Fractals for example) and 6 months later the introduction of permanently available living world releases. I know some people preferred the rapid 'release and remove' schedule of Season 1, but I doubt I'm the only one whose memory of that time mainly includes feeling tired and rushed and like I had to choose which bits to play and which to skip because I wouldn't have time for it.

 

Even at the time World 2 was on the upper end of demanding a lot of time commitment from players, and now when I think Anet have gotten a much better grasp of what's reasonable to expect someone to do in one sitting, it seems even more out of place.

[Dante.1763]

> @"Danikat.8537" said:

 

> I don't think it's a coincidence that shortly after that we started seeing a shift in the release schedule with more permanent content (the re-worked Twilight Arbor path and new Fractals for example) and 6 months later the introduction of permanently available living world releases. I know some people preferred the rapid 'release and remove' schedule of Season 1, but I doubt I'm the only one whose memory of that time mainly includes feeling tired and rushed and like I had to choose which bits to play and which to skip because I wouldn't have time for it.

>

> Even at the time World 2 was on the upper end of demanding a lot of time commitment from players, and now when I think Anet have gotten a much better grasp of what's reasonable to expect someone to do in one sitting, it seems even more out of place.

 

You arent alone. I ended up quitting the game early on in season one because of how stressful it was to try and keep up while going to work and school and then the Navy called, i was so glad for that too, ive never played a game where the game itself made me feel exhausted and tired beside this one.

 

I really do think they need to Rebalance at least a little world 2, and world 2 tribulation mode. I just for the first time finished world 1 and world 2 just reminds me of LS1, its not fun to do, and thats a problem for this being a festival.

[nosleepdemon.1368]

Please no. Listen guys and gals, complaining that SAB is too hard is OK, I guess (although really all it requires is practice, because many of the encounters have surprisingly elegant solutions to them). It was a bit of an April fool's gag to begin with anyway. BUT don't you go touching tribulation mode! Tribulation mode is *supposed* to be hard and if you can't complete it, too bad man. I can't do raids, but I don't complain about it because I understand that there is content in this game for everyone - even players who want a challenge. So that stuff shouldn't be made easier just so that every single player on infantile mode has a chance.

[Danikat.8537]

> @"nosleepdemon.1368" said:

> Please no. Listen guys and gals, complaining that SAB is too hard is OK, I guess (although really all it requires is practice, because many of the encounters have surprisingly elegant solutions to them). It was a bit of an April fool's gag to begin with anyway. BUT don't you go touching tribulation mode! Tribulation mode is *supposed* to be hard and if you can't complete it, too bad man. I can't do raids, but I don't complain about it because I understand that there is content in this game for everyone - even players who want a challenge. So that stuff shouldn't be made easier just so that every single player on infantile mode has a chance.

 

It's possible to make something hard without it taking a long time to do. There was another topic recently where someone suggested splitting 2-2 and 2-3 into 2 levels each, or added checkpoints like PoF uses so someone can stop part way and then continue from where they left off. That wouldn't make them any easier to complete, but it would mean if you're not sure how long you'll have to attempt it you can go ahead and try without worrying that you'll get 1/2 way, have to stop and then have to start over from the begining the next time.

[nosleepdemon.1368]

> @"Danikat.8537" said:

> > @"nosleepdemon.1368" said:

> > Please no. Listen guys and gals, complaining that SAB is too hard is OK, I guess (although really all it requires is practice, because many of the encounters have surprisingly elegant solutions to them). It was a bit of an April fool's gag to begin with anyway. BUT don't you go touching tribulation mode! Tribulation mode is *supposed* to be hard and if you can't complete it, too bad man. I can't do raids, but I don't complain about it because I understand that there is content in this game for everyone - even players who want a challenge. So that stuff shouldn't be made easier just so that every single player on infantile mode has a chance.

>

> It's possible to make something hard without it taking a long time to do. There was another topic recently where someone suggested splitting 2-2 and 2-3 into 2 levels each, or added checkpoints like PoF uses so someone can stop part way and then continue from where they left off. That wouldn't make them any easier to complete, but it would mean if you're not sure how long you'll have to attempt it you can go ahead and try without worrying that you'll get 1/2 way, have to stop and then have to start over from the begining the next time.

 

Splitting them up would be fine yeah, to keep the zone lengths consistent, but the difficulty curve is pretty good I think.

[hugo.4705]

 

Somebody summed up the 7h stream here, I really recommend to read it. If you hate or love SAB and interested about the inspirations and mechanics.

[Randulf.7614]

> @"hugo.4705" said:

>

>

> Somebody summed up the 7h stream here, I really recommend to read it. If you hate or love SAB and interested about the inspirations and mechanics.

 

Thanks for this.

 

Bit confused though...didn't Josh leave Anet?