Turkeyspit.3965 Posted May 28, 2020 Share Posted May 28, 2020 > @"Yasai.3549" said: > Honestly, Racial skills should just be removed. > > All flavour and no actual use. > Even the "useful" ones have a ridiculously long cooldown. They do have a use. They are what you slot when you hit LV 31, but haven't yet unlocked an elite ability with hero points. Just because it is useless at LV 80 on 7yrd old characters doesn't make them useless for everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taril.8619 Posted May 28, 2020 Author Share Posted May 28, 2020 > @"Teratus.2859" said: > > @"Kulvar.1239" said: > > > @"Teratus.2859" said: > > > > @"Kulvar.1239" said: > > > > > @"Teratus.2859" said: > > > > > > @"Kulvar.1239" said: > > > > > > > @"Teratus.2859" said: > > > > > > > > @"Kulvar.1239" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Teratus.2859" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Kulvar.1239" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Teratus.2859" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Kulvar.1239" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Teratus.2859" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > /snip > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please no. It would be terrible. > > > > > > > > > > > > Having golems and norn morphs that hit like Mesmer clones but last indefinitely would be far more enjoyable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That would make them utterly useless and destroy what little use they currently have in game now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They're not meant to have any use and I hope that never change. > > > > > > > > > > So making them last endlessly would make them fun to use outside fight situation at least. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'd rather have them be on some level useful without forcing class sacrifices. > > > > > > > > > A number of them have ties to lore or deep rooted racial/cultural traits Like the Norn's transformations.. making them utterly useless would be severely degrading to the race itself. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How exactly would that be degrading ? They're all useless, meant to be useless as to never become META. Making them everlasting yet irrelevant wouldn't be criminally insulting to fictional races, and actually stick to the lore better. Golems don't have a few seconds function expectancy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And I just thought about it, Charr elite could summon the 3 warband members of the character (creation choice + 2 recruited members during personal story). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Because they're not useless now, they're just not as usefull as class skills for balance/mechanical reasons. > > > > > > > That doesn't change things such as Asura are more dangerous when piloting Golems or that Norns are at their most powerful when transformed. > > > > > > > This is even being touched on in the Icebrood Saga story as well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To have Norn players most powerful transformation be reduced to something as weak as a Mesmer clone would be really degrading to the race.. > > > > > > > But at the same time Anet can't exactly make these skills as powerful as they rightfully should be either because of balance issues and diminishing class specific skills. > > > > > > > If they however could rework them into something that doesn't require class skill sacrifices and limit them only to areas of the game where they wouldn't cause any racial preference in groups etc (no raids, no fractals etc) then these skills could be done a lot of justice and actually give each race something special and unique while still remaining gimmicky and offering limited use due to very heavy CD. > > > > > > > > > > > > How would it be degrading ? You keep saying that, but never justify it. > > > > > > > > > > I did explain it. > > > > > You would be taking quite literally the most powerful racial aspect of the Norn and making it as patheticly inept as a baby Quaggen.. > > > > > It would be like going Super Saiyan in DBZ but rather than having your power boosted to massive levels you'd become Raditz instead. > > > > > Hence degrading.. these forms are supposed to be something that grants the Norn huge power by lore not something akin to a combat Tonic gives you a 99% stat reduction penalty for using them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Norn is not a class, so it's not an issue. > > > > > > Racial skills replacing class skills to use goes against your statement there.. The race may not be a class but their skills do conflict with them. > > > Hence why I'd rather see them converted into limited use bonus F skills that do not effect your class at all and actually make each race feel somewhat special and unique to play, which atm in Gw2 Races do not feel special and unique to play.. > > > In fact if you took away or made racial skills entirely useless as you have expressed favour for above then entire concept of having multiple playable races in Gw2 would be completely redundant.. > > > In that case Anet would have been better of scrapping multiple playable races early in Gw2's development and just forced everyone to be a Human again like in Gw1.. > > > I can imagine how Gw2 players would not be happy had they done that.. and would be furious if they changed the game now just to take away their Sylvari, Charr, Norn and Asuras.. hell I would be too. > > > > Why do you want races to impact gameplay ? Races are not redundant as they let people play fun things. Hulky beast Charrs, small bouncy Asura, colorful glowing Sylvari. > > This is a very common thing in most MMO's that feature multiple races, there's almost always a mechanical or gameplay element to distinguish each race.. but in Gw2 there isnt. Actually, it's not all that common. Especially after the failure that was WoW's racial traits that lead to things like Undead (Later Human) being the objectively best race to play for PvP and Troll (Sometimes Orc) being objectively the best race to play for PvE due to them having racials that were more powerful in that content than others (UD/Human having CC cleanse effect with Human's one literally being a free PvP trinket cleanse allowing them to wear an extra stat boosting trinket. Troll/Orc having an attack+cast speed/attack+spell power buff which allowed them to stack an extra CD during raid burst phases for much higher DPS) Beyond that, MMO's have erred away from introducing any sort of "Racial Bonuses" so as to avoid things like 99% of the population playing a particular race due to the advantage that is provided by the racial bonus. Though, that still doesn't stop Human being by far the most played race in GW2... Though, Bli$$ard goes one step further with their egregious racial bonuses, via having paid for race changes costing extortionate prices ($25) as well as occasionally buffing/nerfing racial skills or adding in new races with ridiculously OP racial skills... That said, I'd still prefer more impactful Racial Skills for races in GW2, even if it comes with the caveat of them being disabled in competitive play (Whether or not WvW and Raids/Strikes would be considered "Competitive" would be up to ANet's disgression) just because having more of a focus on the cool aspects of the races would be more interesting than having a bunch of skills that are just worthless - Even more so, when you have NPC's who utilize them and they're really cool (Such as the plethora of Norn NPC's that transform and then go wreck stuff. Basically every Asuran NPC seems to have a golem with Taimi having her mechsuit/golem hybrid as essentially an additional character called Scruffy and many appearances of the Charr involve either some form of explosive weaponry or vehicle while referencing their Warband) It also would add more to playing additional characters beyond the first 30 levels of PS and a few remarks during HoT/IBS (If playing a Sylvari/Charr respectively) if you also had the opportunity to see some different gameplay via the races unique skills. Though, this would be more for a different topic. As of right now, I'd just like to access racials on Revenant. Since; 1) That'd be cool thematically for my Norn to be able to invoke legends and then use the power of the Spirits to transform. Or something like a Charr Rev also summoning artillery/Warband members alongside their Renegade E-Spec artillery/Warband summons 2) Due to Rev's janky energy system their utility skills ends up boiling down to pretty much just their Upkeep skills and maybe the occasional stun break if they happened to get stunned at a time when they have enough energy to cast the thing. So having even a crappy underpowered racial skill to use could be interesting even if minor in its practicality (Depeding on race I guess, since some races have skills that would be somewhat useful, such as Asura getting a skill that provides 5s Retaliation which could be useful for a Retribution Retal build, Sylvari would be able to use Healing Seed when swapped out of Ventari to provide Regen to support allies etc) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teratus.2859 Posted May 28, 2020 Share Posted May 28, 2020 > @"Taril.8619" said: > > @"Teratus.2859" said: > > > @"Kulvar.1239" said: > > > > @"Teratus.2859" said: > > > > > @"Kulvar.1239" said: > > > > > > @"Teratus.2859" said: > > > > > > > @"Kulvar.1239" said: > > > > > > > > @"Teratus.2859" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Kulvar.1239" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Teratus.2859" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Kulvar.1239" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Teratus.2859" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Kulvar.1239" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Teratus.2859" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > /snip > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please no. It would be terrible. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Having golems and norn morphs that hit like Mesmer clones but last indefinitely would be far more enjoyable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That would make them utterly useless and destroy what little use they currently have in game now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They're not meant to have any use and I hope that never change. > > > > > > > > > > > So making them last endlessly would make them fun to use outside fight situation at least. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'd rather have them be on some level useful without forcing class sacrifices. > > > > > > > > > > A number of them have ties to lore or deep rooted racial/cultural traits Like the Norn's transformations.. making them utterly useless would be severely degrading to the race itself. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How exactly would that be degrading ? They're all useless, meant to be useless as to never become META. Making them everlasting yet irrelevant wouldn't be criminally insulting to fictional races, and actually stick to the lore better. Golems don't have a few seconds function expectancy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And I just thought about it, Charr elite could summon the 3 warband members of the character (creation choice + 2 recruited members during personal story). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Because they're not useless now, they're just not as usefull as class skills for balance/mechanical reasons. > > > > > > > > That doesn't change things such as Asura are more dangerous when piloting Golems or that Norns are at their most powerful when transformed. > > > > > > > > This is even being touched on in the Icebrood Saga story as well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To have Norn players most powerful transformation be reduced to something as weak as a Mesmer clone would be really degrading to the race.. > > > > > > > > But at the same time Anet can't exactly make these skills as powerful as they rightfully should be either because of balance issues and diminishing class specific skills. > > > > > > > > If they however could rework them into something that doesn't require class skill sacrifices and limit them only to areas of the game where they wouldn't cause any racial preference in groups etc (no raids, no fractals etc) then these skills could be done a lot of justice and actually give each race something special and unique while still remaining gimmicky and offering limited use due to very heavy CD. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How would it be degrading ? You keep saying that, but never justify it. > > > > > > > > > > > > I did explain it. > > > > > > You would be taking quite literally the most powerful racial aspect of the Norn and making it as patheticly inept as a baby Quaggen.. > > > > > > It would be like going Super Saiyan in DBZ but rather than having your power boosted to massive levels you'd become Raditz instead. > > > > > > Hence degrading.. these forms are supposed to be something that grants the Norn huge power by lore not something akin to a combat Tonic gives you a 99% stat reduction penalty for using them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Norn is not a class, so it's not an issue. > > > > > > > > Racial skills replacing class skills to use goes against your statement there.. The race may not be a class but their skills do conflict with them. > > > > Hence why I'd rather see them converted into limited use bonus F skills that do not effect your class at all and actually make each race feel somewhat special and unique to play, which atm in Gw2 Races do not feel special and unique to play.. > > > > In fact if you took away or made racial skills entirely useless as you have expressed favour for above then entire concept of having multiple playable races in Gw2 would be completely redundant.. > > > > In that case Anet would have been better of scrapping multiple playable races early in Gw2's development and just forced everyone to be a Human again like in Gw1.. > > > > I can imagine how Gw2 players would not be happy had they done that.. and would be furious if they changed the game now just to take away their Sylvari, Charr, Norn and Asuras.. hell I would be too. > > > > > > Why do you want races to impact gameplay ? Races are not redundant as they let people play fun things. Hulky beast Charrs, small bouncy Asura, colorful glowing Sylvari. > > > > This is a very common thing in most MMO's that feature multiple races, there's almost always a mechanical or gameplay element to distinguish each race.. but in Gw2 there isnt. > > Actually, it's not all that common. Especially after the failure that was WoW's racial traits that lead to things like Undead (Later Human) being the objectively best race to play for PvP and Troll (Sometimes Orc) being objectively the best race to play for PvE due to them having racials that were more powerful in that content than others (UD/Human having CC cleanse effect with Human's one literally being a free PvP trinket cleanse allowing them to wear an extra stat boosting trinket. Troll/Orc having an attack+cast speed/attack+spell power buff which allowed them to stack an extra CD during raid burst phases for much higher DPS) > > Beyond that, MMO's have erred away from introducing any sort of "Racial Bonuses" so as to avoid things like 99% of the population playing a particular race due to the advantage that is provided by the racial bonus. Though, that still doesn't stop Human being by far the most played race in GW2... > > Though, Bli$$ard goes one step further with their egregious racial bonuses, via having paid for race changes costing extortionate prices ($25) as well as occasionally buffing/nerfing racial skills or adding in new races with ridiculously OP racial skills... > It does still happen in modern MMO's though, Elder Scrolls online is one really popular modern MMO that has racial bonus. Argonians having faster swim speed and and a natural boost to healing making them the best race for healer playstyles even though it's only a small advantage. FF14 is also a large modern MMO which has slight stat differences between races. Gw2 has absolutely no unique racial flavour like that.. your race defines your start town, a handful of largely never used gimmick skills and a handful of early campaign missions but other than that, Race is pretty much purely cosmetic which is a shame since in terms of lore each race is very cool and interestingly different. It would be really cool if there was a way we could feel like our race matters or has at least some defining factor in game.. but outside of racial skills which become largely useless very early in the game, there just isn't. > That said, I'd still prefer more impactful Racial Skills for races in GW2, even if it comes with the caveat of them being disabled in competitive play (Whether or not WvW and Raids/Strikes would be considered "Competitive" would be up to ANet's disgression) just because having more of a focus on the cool aspects of the races would be more interesting than having a bunch of skills that are just worthless - Even more so, when you have NPC's who utilize them and they're really cool (Such as the plethora of Norn NPC's that transform and then go wreck stuff. Basically every Asuran NPC seems to have a golem with Taimi having her mechsuit/golem hybrid as essentially an additional character called Scruffy and many appearances of the Charr involve either some form of explosive weaponry or vehicle while referencing their Warband) > > It also would add more to playing additional characters beyond the first 30 levels of PS and a few remarks during HoT/IBS (If playing a Sylvari/Charr respectively) if you also had the opportunity to see some different gameplay via the races unique skills. > > Though, this would be more for a different topic. > > As of right now, I'd just like to access racials on Revenant. Since; > 1) That'd be cool thematically for my Norn to be able to invoke legends and then use the power of the Spirits to transform. Or something like a Charr Rev also summoning artillery/Warband members alongside their Renegade E-Spec artillery/Warband summons > > 2) Due to Rev's janky energy system their utility skills ends up boiling down to pretty much just their Upkeep skills and maybe the occasional stun break if they happened to get stunned at a time when they have enough energy to cast the thing. So having even a crappy underpowered racial skill to use could be interesting even if minor in its practicality (Depeding on race I guess, since some races have skills that would be somewhat useful, such as Asura getting a skill that provides 5s Retaliation which could be useful for a Retribution Retal build, Sylvari would be able to use Healing Seed when swapped out of Ventari to provide Regen to support allies etc) With my suggestion about racial skills being reworked into F6+ skills you would get them on Revenant without having to sacrifice any class skills. I think that's largely the main problem with Racial skills and their balance in game, having to sacrifice class skills to use them puts them in direct conflict with Gw2's professions and causes all the balance issues that result in racial skills being so underwhelming. If Anet made them f6+ skills then they could balance them as needed, disable them in content like WvW, PvP, Fractals, Strikes and Raids to avoid racial bias vs balance issues and actually make them somewhat viable while giving each race that unique flavour and make them feel different from one another as they deserve to be. There's a long running joke about Norn being "just big humans" in Gw2 and I think a lot of that stems from Norn and Humans having similar physical traits and playing exactly the same as humans in the game. If they had access to racial skills most of the time in PvE, that would at least make them feel different. Likwise the same for Asura who could have a personal Golem ally they could call in.. and Humans who's choice of God to follow could grant them specific abilities tied to that god. I think this is ultiamtely the best way Anet could add a decent bit of racial flavour to Gw2 while also avoiding all the balance and racial preference problems they have gone out of their way to avoid all these years at the expense of racial skills and diversity. Not to mention it will be a nice upgrade to our choices in the character creation if they actively defined some of our racial skills. It's pretty silly right now that we can make a Norn that's devoted to Wolf but becomes a bear or raven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taril.8619 Posted May 28, 2020 Author Share Posted May 28, 2020 > @"Teratus.2859" said: > > @"Taril.8619" said: > > > @"Teratus.2859" said: > > > > @"Kulvar.1239" said: > > > > > @"Teratus.2859" said: > > > > > > @"Kulvar.1239" said: > > > > > > > @"Teratus.2859" said: > > > > > > > > @"Kulvar.1239" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Teratus.2859" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Kulvar.1239" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Teratus.2859" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Kulvar.1239" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Teratus.2859" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Kulvar.1239" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Teratus.2859" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > /snip > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please no. It would be terrible. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Having golems and norn morphs that hit like Mesmer clones but last indefinitely would be far more enjoyable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That would make them utterly useless and destroy what little use they currently have in game now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They're not meant to have any use and I hope that never change. > > > > > > > > > > > > So making them last endlessly would make them fun to use outside fight situation at least. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'd rather have them be on some level useful without forcing class sacrifices. > > > > > > > > > > > A number of them have ties to lore or deep rooted racial/cultural traits Like the Norn's transformations.. making them utterly useless would be severely degrading to the race itself. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How exactly would that be degrading ? They're all useless, meant to be useless as to never become META. Making them everlasting yet irrelevant wouldn't be criminally insulting to fictional races, and actually stick to the lore better. Golems don't have a few seconds function expectancy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And I just thought about it, Charr elite could summon the 3 warband members of the character (creation choice + 2 recruited members during personal story). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Because they're not useless now, they're just not as usefull as class skills for balance/mechanical reasons. > > > > > > > > > That doesn't change things such as Asura are more dangerous when piloting Golems or that Norns are at their most powerful when transformed. > > > > > > > > > This is even being touched on in the Icebrood Saga story as well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To have Norn players most powerful transformation be reduced to something as weak as a Mesmer clone would be really degrading to the race.. > > > > > > > > > But at the same time Anet can't exactly make these skills as powerful as they rightfully should be either because of balance issues and diminishing class specific skills. > > > > > > > > > If they however could rework them into something that doesn't require class skill sacrifices and limit them only to areas of the game where they wouldn't cause any racial preference in groups etc (no raids, no fractals etc) then these skills could be done a lot of justice and actually give each race something special and unique while still remaining gimmicky and offering limited use due to very heavy CD. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How would it be degrading ? You keep saying that, but never justify it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I did explain it. > > > > > > > You would be taking quite literally the most powerful racial aspect of the Norn and making it as patheticly inept as a baby Quaggen.. > > > > > > > It would be like going Super Saiyan in DBZ but rather than having your power boosted to massive levels you'd become Raditz instead. > > > > > > > Hence degrading.. these forms are supposed to be something that grants the Norn huge power by lore not something akin to a combat Tonic gives you a 99% stat reduction penalty for using them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Norn is not a class, so it's not an issue. > > > > > > > > > > Racial skills replacing class skills to use goes against your statement there.. The race may not be a class but their skills do conflict with them. > > > > > Hence why I'd rather see them converted into limited use bonus F skills that do not effect your class at all and actually make each race feel somewhat special and unique to play, which atm in Gw2 Races do not feel special and unique to play.. > > > > > In fact if you took away or made racial skills entirely useless as you have expressed favour for above then entire concept of having multiple playable races in Gw2 would be completely redundant.. > > > > > In that case Anet would have been better of scrapping multiple playable races early in Gw2's development and just forced everyone to be a Human again like in Gw1.. > > > > > I can imagine how Gw2 players would not be happy had they done that.. and would be furious if they changed the game now just to take away their Sylvari, Charr, Norn and Asuras.. hell I would be too. > > > > > > > > Why do you want races to impact gameplay ? Races are not redundant as they let people play fun things. Hulky beast Charrs, small bouncy Asura, colorful glowing Sylvari. > > > > > > This is a very common thing in most MMO's that feature multiple races, there's almost always a mechanical or gameplay element to distinguish each race.. but in Gw2 there isnt. > > > > Actually, it's not all that common. Especially after the failure that was WoW's racial traits that lead to things like Undead (Later Human) being the objectively best race to play for PvP and Troll (Sometimes Orc) being objectively the best race to play for PvE due to them having racials that were more powerful in that content than others (UD/Human having CC cleanse effect with Human's one literally being a free PvP trinket cleanse allowing them to wear an extra stat boosting trinket. Troll/Orc having an attack+cast speed/attack+spell power buff which allowed them to stack an extra CD during raid burst phases for much higher DPS) > > > > Beyond that, MMO's have erred away from introducing any sort of "Racial Bonuses" so as to avoid things like 99% of the population playing a particular race due to the advantage that is provided by the racial bonus. Though, that still doesn't stop Human being by far the most played race in GW2... > > > > Though, Bli$$ard goes one step further with their egregious racial bonuses, via having paid for race changes costing extortionate prices ($25) as well as occasionally buffing/nerfing racial skills or adding in new races with ridiculously OP racial skills... > > > FF14 is also a large modern MMO which has slight stat differences between races. It doesn't. At least not any more. Every race is literally identical stats and gameplay. The only difference is appearance (With the 2 newest races, Viera and Hrothgar, having limitations on what head gear they can show) Meaning that so far the list of MMO's with racial discrepancies are: WoW and ESO. Maybe you could argue some Eastern MMO's such as B&S which have race locked classes (But usually just 1 race gets a couple of different classes) Which is not very common. > With my suggestion about racial skills being reworked into F6+ skills you would get them on Revenant without having to sacrifice any class skills. > I think that's largely the main problem with Racial skills and their balance in game, having to sacrifice class skills to use them puts them in direct conflict with Gw2's professions and causes all the balance issues that result in racial skills being so underwhelming. > > If Anet made them f6+ skills then they could balance them as needed, disable them in content like WvW, PvP, Fractals, Strikes and Raids to avoid racial bias vs balance issues and actually make them somewhat viable while giving each race that unique flavour and make them feel different from one another as they deserve to be. The issue with Racial Skills and their balance in game has nothing to do with them competing for class skills, it's all about **IF** one race had a racial skill that was seen as objectively better for a particular piece of content (And was viable to use, meaning it could compete with class skills) then people would feel "Forced" to play that race in order to have access to that superior skill. The fact that all Racial skills are unanimously worse than class skills is not a failure in balancing them against class skills, but an intentional design to prevent them from ever being useful enough to actually slot them, which prevents any of them from being notable enough to dictate what race people play. Turning them into F skills doesn't circumvent the issue of Racial Skill balance, in fact, it exacerbates it since now even if said skills still mostly sucked, if even ONE skill was sort of worth using, people would be at an advantage playing that race especially since those racial skills wouldn't be competing for the (Superior) class skills. If doing so and disabling them in basically all content that isn't OW, doesn't really change anything since you can meme about in OW content and slot the current trash Racial skills anyway. Meanwhile, in a large portion of the in-game content, you'd still end up with gameplay that feels all the same because them being disabled is no different than them being trash and thus never used. Now, there's the other option, of simply giving every race the same skill, but with different thematic effects. For example, if everyone got a summon skill and it just looked different per race (Humans summon Hound of Balthazar, Sylvari summon Fern Hound or Druid Spirit, Asura summon a Golem, Charr summon a Warband member, Norn summon a Frost Wurm) or everyone got a single target nuke skill that just looked different (Humans have one of their gods smite a foe, Sylvari get vines to slap something, Asura zap it with some technology, Charr shoot it with a Charrzooka, Norn get Owls to attack the target). But the end result of such a thing is still the same gameplay across each race, even if it does have slight animation differences. Which leads to the crux of the issue. We can either get racial skills that mean something and can be used. Or we can maintain racial balance so everyone can continue playing Human without worry (Given that Human is by far and away the most popular race). Personally, I'd prefer the former. But as I'm not the type of person who makes characters based on min/maxing, I'm biased towards creating a system that could be imbalanced for players looking to eke out any advantage possible because it would have little effect on me. Many other players might disagree and would feel "Forced" to play X race to get an extra 0.1% DPS in PvE or to get access to a niche skill for PvP, or feel super salty when X race wrecks them in WvW using a unique racial skill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thornwolf.9721 Posted May 28, 2020 Share Posted May 28, 2020 I mean I dont see why the races exist at all. Should of been all human considering how they treat anything that isn't a human or sylvari; Racial skills need to matter and race needs to matter because it should have unique flavor to it. Not just be some half-assed cosmetic BS which just perpetuates the "human master race" because they look the "best" in all armor and outfit sets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teratus.2859 Posted May 28, 2020 Share Posted May 28, 2020 > @"Taril.8619" said: > The issue with Racial Skills and their balance in game has nothing to do with them competing for class skills, it's all about **IF** one race had a racial skill that was seen as objectively better for a particular piece of content (And was viable to use, meaning it could compete with class skills) then people would feel "Forced" to play that race in order to have access to that superior skill. > > The fact that all Racial skills are unanimously worse than class skills is not a failure in balancing them against class skills, but an intentional design to prevent them from ever being useful enough to actually slot them, which prevents any of them from being notable enough to dictate what race people play. That's pretty much what I ment by competing with class skills, if Racial skills were competitive with class skills then it would cause exactly that problem of racial bias. Hence why I want to eliminate the problem by removing racial skills from the utility skill line so they can never conflict with them. > Turning them into F skills doesn't circumvent the issue of Racial Skill balance, in fact, it exacerbates it since now even if said skills still mostly sucked, if even ONE skill was sort of worth using, people would be at an advantage playing that race especially since those racial skills wouldn't be competing for the (Superior) class skills. > > If doing so and disabling them in basically all content that isn't OW, doesn't really change anything since you can meme about in OW content and slot the current trash Racial skills anyway. Meanwhile, in a large portion of the in-game content, you'd still end up with gameplay that feels all the same because them being disabled is no different than them being trash and thus never used. > That's exactly why In my original post I suggest massive cooldowns and largely small benefits for most of them. They could even do away with the general utilities and just have a single character creation choice defined Racial transformation skill with a half hour CD or something and it would be more than enough to give that unique racial flavour im mainly looking to get from race skills. Asura get Power suit Norn animal forms Human God Avatars Charr War Machines Sylvari Oakheart/Jugganaut forms The skills, abilities and appearance of these transformations defined by your character creation choices. If they lasted a short time and had heavy CD they would be easier to balance for, even if they were allowed into content like Fractals and WvW.. which I still think they shouldn't be for the sake of balance and avoiding racial prefence and bias. The whole point of this though is to allow races to have some kind of flavour without forcing someone to actively diminish their class for it. > Now, there's the other option, of simply giving every race the same skill, but with different thematic effects. For example, if everyone got a summon skill and it just looked different per race (Humans summon Hound of Balthazar, Sylvari summon Fern Hound or Druid Spirit, Asura summon a Golem, Charr summon a Warband member, Norn summon a Frost Wurm) or everyone got a single target nuke skill that just looked different (Humans have one of their gods smite a foe, Sylvari get vines to slap something, Asura zap it with some technology, Charr shoot it with a Charrzooka, Norn get Owls to attack the target). But the end result of such a thing is still the same gameplay across each race, even if it does have slight animation differences. > > Which leads to the crux of the issue. We can either get racial skills that mean something and can be used. Or we can maintain racial balance so everyone can continue playing Human without worry (Given that Human is by far and away the most popular race). > I wouldn't mind if they all had a summon or transformation mechanic as long as each were different enough to warrant it, ultimately cosmetics alone would go a long way there since this is fashion wars. As far as humans being the most popular race though, well part of that is probably due to a lot of Gw1 players still play Gw2 and have a racial connection back to the first game which only allowed you to play as humans. I can personally attest to that myself. Other reasons being some people just prefer to play a character that looks like them.. Ultimately though I don't see any problems with any one race being more popular than another in this game. > Personally, I'd prefer the former. But as I'm not the type of person who makes characters based on min/maxing, I'm biased towards creating a system that could be imbalanced for players looking to eke out any advantage possible because it would have little effect on me. > > Many other players might disagree and would feel "Forced" to play X race to get an extra 0.1% DPS in PvE or to get access to a niche skill for PvP, or feel super salty when X race wrecks them in WvW using a unique racial skill. I don't like min maxing either, hence one reason why I would prefer any racial advantages be disabled in competitve or high level group based content to eliminate that. But in the open world all of that is irrelevant so there's no problem with races having a bit of extra racial flare. PvE is the majority of this games content so I do feel it's worth it to change racial skills in some way to make each race feel unique to play there. And if they added heavy CD's to race skills too then they would be able to make them somewhat useful even if they were largely situational, the CD would heavily restrict overuse and abuse and no classes would be effected positively or negatively by them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WorldofBay.8160 Posted May 28, 2020 Share Posted May 28, 2020 back to topic: rev doesn't fit the other classes' handling of racial skills and imo it would only be bad to have them. that said, rev has a different approach to skills and that can also be used in racial skills. revs could summon a racial legend! and those legends would be obviously worse than other legends but if you want to use them for lore or because they fit your build, why not? those legends would suit better than current legends because who the hell is mallyx from the perspective of a gw2 player? nowhere to be found, just a name, could be anything. shiro the same. renegade squad same. only fitting legends are ventari, glint and just recently the dwarf. now, which racial legend? asura: snaff or zinn are possibilities that are actually rooted in this game human: turai ossa, pre-god kormir, maybe even koss sylvari: wynne or the pale tree --- edit: sylvari could summon mordremoth after defeating him, that would be cool. charr idk, i don't really know charr things but any of the statues in the black citadel fits this place norn: owl spirit. or one of the other lost spirits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadnir.5038 Posted May 29, 2020 Share Posted May 29, 2020 > @"WorldofBay.8160" said: > now, which racial legend? > asura: snaff or zinn are possibilities that are actually rooted in this game I'd go with Oola personally, even in GW she was seen as a nearly legendary figure. **Master donjon guide:** _Oola, a reclusive Asura whose magical skills and achievements have made her a nearly legendary figure, once resided at the bottom of a labyrinthine system of caverns. Disdaining polite society, she sequestered herself in a hidden laboratory to continue her work in peace and quiet. When her fellow Asura needed her expertise in the battle against the Destroyers, Oola rejoined them. With no one left to maintain the golems that once guarded the lab, her creations went berserk. The only way to restore order was by tracking down the TPS regulator, the ultimate source of these major malfunctions._ > human: turai ossa, pre-god kormir, maybe even koss While something about the gods wouldn't be out of the picture, we got Shiro there. Outside of that, I think an e-spec related to Abaddon with a Legendary margonite could fit. Margonites used to be human seafarers worshipping abaddon which is the god of depth, magic and secrets. There is a prominent figure amongst them named Jadoth. > sylvari: wynne or the pale tree --- edit: sylvari could summon mordremoth after defeating him, that would be cool. Like the human, I think ventari already fill the role. In this case, there is even the "stone" which can be likened to the turrets found on sylvari's racial skills. > charr idk, i don't really know charr things but any of the statues in the black citadel fits this place Charrs got the renegade. It's difficult to make anything more charr-like, there is the full warband and the tactical attack all included into the e-spec. > norn: owl spirit. or one of the other lost spirits. I do agree, I think somewhere on the forum I put together a "norn" inspired e-spec with the spirit of the frog as the basis and an hylek as a legend. The idea was to recycle an hylek skin as an upkeeped transform for F2 and a focus on poison/trap as utility. I had chosen Ameyalli as the legend, making her a legendary figure linked to the spirit of the frog that would have achieved a state similar to the gw's druids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WorldofBay.8160 Posted June 4, 2020 Share Posted June 4, 2020 > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > @"WorldofBay.8160" said: > > now, which racial legend? > > asura: snaff or zinn are possibilities that are actually rooted in this game > > I'd go with Oola personally, even in GW she was seen as a nearly legendary figure. > **Master donjon guide:** _Oola, a reclusive Asura whose magical skills and achievements have made her a nearly legendary figure, once resided at the bottom of a labyrinthine system of caverns. Disdaining polite society, she sequestered herself in a hidden laboratory to continue her work in peace and quiet. When her fellow Asura needed her expertise in the battle against the Destroyers, Oola rejoined them. With no one left to maintain the golems that once guarded the lab, her creations went berserk. The only way to restore order was by tracking down the TPS regulator, the ultimate source of these major malfunctions._ oola is another possibility, yes > > human: turai ossa, pre-god kormir, maybe even koss > > While something about the gods wouldn't be out of the picture, we got Shiro there. Outside of that, I think an e-spec related to Abaddon with a Legendary margonite could fit. Margonites used to be human seafarers worshipping abaddon which is the god of depth, magic and secrets. There is a prominent figure amongst them named Jadoth. i don't want any GW1 legends, purely legends that are visible in GW2, legends the average GW2 player (that didn't play GW1) recognizes. shiro is definitely not one of those, same for the rest you mentioned. with PoF we get a whole bunch of lore about abaddon's fall but mostly about his opponents, so i'd rather have either abaddon himself or one of kormir's squad than any abaddon worshipper. turai ossa appears everywhere throughout the story, which is why i put him in the mix. PoF also tells us that he defeated palawa joko, so we have a strong basis to build on. > > sylvari: wynne or the pale tree --- edit: sylvari could summon mordremoth after defeating him, that would be cool. > > Like the human, I think ventari already fill the role. In this case, there is even the "stone" which can be likened to the turrets found on sylvari's racial skills. ventari is a centaur and not a sylvari, a sylvari racial spec imo should use a sylvari (or their relatives, the pale tree or mordremoth ... but mordremoth from start on would be a rather big spoiler which is why i said after defeating him) > > charr idk, i don't really know charr things but any of the statues in the black citadel fits this place > > Charrs got the renegade. It's difficult to make anything more charr-like, there is the full warband and the tactical attack all included into the e-spec. again that renegade squad is not well-known in GW2 as far as i know. given the nature of charr in GW2 a good choice would be some legendary engineer whose tools are used as skills. > > norn: owl spirit. or one of the other lost spirits. > > I do agree, I think somewhere on the forum I put together a "norn" inspired e-spec with the spirit of the frog as the basis and an hylek as a legend. The idea was to recycle an hylek skin as an upkeeped transform for F2 and a focus on poison/trap as utility. I had chosen Ameyalli as the legend, making her a legendary figure linked to the spirit of the frog that would have achieved a state similar to the gw's druids. i specifically mentioned owl spirit because of the owl shrine in hoelbrak that makes your character experience the scary owl death that is also accompanied with hope. i think it would fit very well that the owl spirit still fights beyond death - via norn revenants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kulvar.1239 Posted June 26, 2020 Share Posted June 26, 2020 Asgeir Dragonrender (Greatsword + Spirits of the Wild) Oola (Scepter + Necromancy), maybe a heal based spec Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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