Decay vs Grind - Endgame

[Brian.6973]

I suppose I should have given a more broad definition of decay, think I did mention durability loss. Perhaps I should have said incremental destruction / damage. In this context though I think most understood stuff which breaks over time. If I reworded it, think I would have gotten an equal negative response.

 

The first online MMORPG which is still around despite no graphic upgrade was UO. The armour / weapons broke if not repaired and would lose durability after repair. In fact worse than that your stuff stayed on your corpse and the monsters could loot you. In pvp zones your stuff was up for grabs. It wasn't a big deal since stuff was easy to make, so crafting was a core mechanic and was not considered a grind. If you did not go back to get your gear within 20 mins, then it would be gone lol. Sometimes you would ask your guild come help with corpse. Some stuff had acid on them, eat your weapons fast. Players were typically not as squishy, but if you were going to a high risk area you would not be carrying too much resources in your bag.

 

So hope you can at least understand it was not really grind, but I can understand how it could be seen as annoying.

[kharmin.7683]

> @"Brian.6973" said:

> You would just go mine the ore, smelt and build in 15 min, not a grind at all was fun.

Fun for you. Not fun for me.

 

>Later on they added imbuing materials so you could add custom stats, but it never felt like a grind since very little time was spent gathering.

Didn't feel like a grind to you. Would feel like a grind to me

 

> Hunting / gathering / crafting seems to be seen as not fun but annoying, so it's more a 'get it over with' thing.

No. It isn't fun for me. Yes, it is annoying to me. No, it's not a 'get over it thing.'

 

> Above someone wrote off decay as as a completely outdated mechanic, but without having things that break I don't think RPGs could exist.

But, yet, RPGs do exist without this mechanic.

 

There is nothing preventing you from doing this on your own. Play your character for an hour or so, then delete his/her weapons and craft new ones.

[Randulf.7614]

> @"Brian.6973" said:

> I suppose I should have given a more broad definition of decay, think I did mention durability loss. Perhaps I should have said incremental destruction / damage. In this context though I think most understood stuff which breaks over time. If I reworded it, think I would have gotten an equal negative response.

>

> The first online MMORPG which is still around despite no graphic upgrade was UO. The armour / weapons broke if not repaired and would lose durability after repair. In fact worse than that your stuff stayed on your corpse and the monsters could loot you. In pvp zones your stuff was up for grabs. It wasn't a big deal since stuff was easy to make, so crafting was a core mechanic and was not considered a grind. If you did not go back to get your gear within 20 mins, then it would be gone lol. Sometimes you would ask your guild come help with corpse. Some stuff had acid on them, eat your weapons fast. Players were typically not as squishy, but if you were going to a high risk area you would not be carrying too much resources in your bag.

>

> So hope you can at least understand it was not really grind, but I can understand how it could be seen as annoying.

 

And I am sure it was great at the time given MMO's were new and the cool thing. Anarchy Online made you also go back and get gear after you died in the early days or you lost it. Eventually they had to modernise that (esp as pve/pvp areas caused ganking and easy loss of gear..). Anarchy Online also had proper old fashioned twinking and gear laddering of getting into higher gear by buffing your stats from other classes and stats gear until you you massively OP for your level. That was so much fun. It couldn't pass off today though

 

Games have moved on. What worked for UO back then, would not necs work today where gaming attitudes and tolerances have wildly changed. It certainly could not work in GW2 where the style and appeal is very, very different to those old school MMO's

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

Our Armor takes damage, and if not repaired, causes loss.

Thus, I guess we already have 'decay'.

[Brian.6973]

@Astralporing.1957 "I am sorry to tell you that, but UO could easily be used as a textbook example of grind."

In my 20 years+ experience in UO, I never had this feeling or my guild-mates. Maybe right at the beginning when player housing was in short supply.

The game is still in the top 100 and has an engine from the early 90s, definitely not the great graphics or new content keeping them alive.

 

As mentioned it seems generally people prefer immortal items in GW2, if that is the general consensus I am happy with that.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

I would instantly deleted Gw2 when this happend and i will never play a game with decay mechanics

[Brian.6973]

@Inculpatus cedo.9234 Just in case you don't know, you can still repair it and no durability is lost, don't trash it.

[Brian.6973]

@Randulf.7614 yeah think I understood this earlier on in the comments. I would not go so far as to say this mechanic is outdated, but it's just not preferred here. Survival game has gone one way RPG another, and not much of a middle in newer games.

[Zaklex.6308]

> @"Brian.6973" said:

> @Randulf.7614 yeah think I understood this earlier on in the comments. I would not go so far as to say this mechanic is outdated, but it's just not preferred here. Survival game has gone one way RPG another, and not much of a middle in newer games.

 

I'd say decay is not preferred in most games in today's environment...as I said earlier, it's the thing I least like about Fallout 76 weapons(it doesn't apply to armor thankfully), even though I can make weapons last longer with the right perks. It's annoying to be in the middle of an encounter/battle against mobs and have the weapon I'm using break in the middle of it.

[Brian.6973]

Ok, understood.

[Thornwolf.9721]

Updating older maps would be far superior to this, making them up to snuff with modern day gameplay and current maps. Just add in worthwhile reasons to go back~ As currently core is pointless once its cleared.

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

> @"Brian.6973" said:

> @Inculpatus cedo.9234 Just in case you don't know, you can still repair it and no durability is lost, don't trash it.

 

Ha, ha, ha. Okay, thanks.

[Taygus.4571]

> @"Brian.6973" said:

> I suppose I should have given a more broad definition of decay, think I did mention durability loss. Perhaps I should have said incremental destruction / damage. In this context though I think most understood stuff which breaks over time. If I reworded it, think I would have gotten an equal negative response.

>

> The first online MMORPG which is still around despite no graphic upgrade was UO. The armour / weapons broke if not repaired and would lose durability after repair. In fact worse than that your stuff stayed on your corpse and the monsters could loot you. In pvp zones your stuff was up for grabs. It wasn't a big deal since stuff was easy to make, so crafting was a core mechanic and was not considered a grind. If you did not go back to get your gear within 20 mins, then it would be gone lol. Sometimes you would ask your guild come help with corpse. Some stuff had acid on them, eat your weapons fast. Players were typically not as squishy, but if you were going to a high risk area you would not be carrying too much resources in your bag.

>

> So hope you can at least understand it was not really grind, but I can understand how it could be seen as annoying.

 

That..sounds awful. I would hate that.

 

And having to recraft your weapon repeatedly is the definition of grind.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Brian.6973" said:

> @Astralporing.1957 "I am sorry to tell you that, but UO could easily be used as a textbook example of grind."

> In my 20 years+ experience in UO, I never had this feeling or my guild-mates. Maybe right at the beginning when player housing was in short supply.

You liked it. Many players didn't. You must really have missed UO being already considered grindy even when it was a new game (uh, was it really 23 years ago? I feel old now :/), and when it was compared to other games of these times (which were generally more grindy than alot of what we're used to now).

 

> The game is still in the top 100 and has an engine from the early 90s, definitely not the great graphics or new content keeping them alive.

It's not that hard to be in top 100 in a MMORPG category (there's a ton of games you probably never even heard about that might end up on such a list). Notice, though, that if UO has been as popular now as it was at its peak, it still most probably wouldn't qualify for top 10

 

 

[kharmin.7683]

> @"Brian.6973" said:

 

> In my 20 years+ experience in UO, I never had this feeling or my guild-mates.

And, this is your personal, subjective opinion. What you find fun, enjoyable, not "grindy" isn't necessarily what a significant portion of the GW2 playerbase finds. If it were, I'm certain that Anet would have implemented it by now.

 

[Brian.6973]

@kharmin.7683 I will settle with it being called subjective vs. the definition of grind.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Brian.6973" said:

> @kharmin.7683 I will settle with it being called subjective vs. the definition of grind.

Definition of grind is in itself very subjective, as you yourself proved, bringing up a definition you think is right, but a lot of people in his thread don't agree with.

 

[Swagger.1459]

> @"Brian.6973" said:

> @kharmin.7683 I will settle with it being called subjective vs. the definition of grind.

 

I don’t think you are going to sell anyone on the idea that adding in chores will make the game more enjoyable.

[Seera.5916]

Decay over time is a definite no from me. It also goes against this game's philosophy of being able to take breaks and pick up where you left off. Decay over time would go against that.

[battledrone.8315]

there is a reason, why so few games still have this mechanic. decay is the definition of grind.

[Psientist.6437]

Most mmos still apply gear decay. Salvage kits, gathering tools and consumables all employ decay mechanics. Decay mechanics are a type of item destruction and item destruction can encourage players to work and organize into a player base. However, item destruction does create game narrative that **must** interact with the wider game narrative. For instance, the narrative of universally destructible gear in EVE resonates brilliantly with New Eden's PvP narrative. In a PvE setting, decay of combat gear comes off as arbitrary competition between the player and the studio. For a PvE game that focuses on limiting gate keeping of content and offers gold for sale, decay of combat gear would appear starkly compulsory and motivated by a business plan.

 

OP, your logic for why low cost, single use functionality is important is sound. If there is a cost to use a function, a rational market actor would demand the lowest cost, smallest size of that function. We would be in an uproar if the indestructible versions of salvage kits and gathering tools were the only option. However, a rational actor would also demand, if one were possible, an indestructible version of the function. A fair marketplace would offer options to rent or own a function.

 

Many mmo players love "chores". In some measure, I think all of us play mmos to experience being told what to do. I think many of us just don't want starkly arbitrary hoops to jump through. It is very easy for combat gear decay to become just such a hoop.

[Lilyanna.9361]

Why in the Lord's name would I want to freaking craft ALL of my ascended, legendaries, infusions and other crap. That's stupid and I hate durability loss in mmos. It is usually used as a tactic to get people to spend money on premium currency to make the task go faster . Yea, no thanks.