So... when will holosmith get nerfed?

[Chaith.8256]

Lol @ people reading title only and not catching sarcasm.

 

But I'll put my 2c on the "WHICH PASSIVE PROCS ARE BETTER" debate.

 

Endure pain auto proc @ 50% much better than Elixir S @ 25%, quite objectively. The one big reason is that endure pain proc doesn't interrupt your heal or your pressure, it's way stronger in combat. Passive Elixir S is only an intrusive stalling tool, passive endure pain flips you to be the aggressor in the fight.

 

Holosmith with defy pain would be so busted, for example, doing that insane counter-pressure while ignoring counter-pressure. The only reason why Marauder Holosmith is so mediocre in 1v1's is because they are always wide open, SO EASY to counter-pressure. Any Holosmith would give his left nut for endure/defy pain or resistance to combine with nutso damage to squishies (cause' it would be broken, ofc.)

 

It's the reason why Spellbreakers and Mirages are so good 1v1, they're often completely immune to all counterpressure or CC while they're being aggressive.

[choovanski.5462]

@"Chaith.8256" the endure pain hate confuses me tbh. after nerfs it’s only 4 seconds with both trait & utility, & it doesn’t ignore cc or condis. mesmer’s distortion is 4 seconds, & it’s a full invun- which is much better imo. furthermore soulbeast has 15 1/2 seconds of endure pain & it’s widely considered bad. thats half a second off having 4x the duration of endure pain warrior has.

 

like i (as an engi/warrior main since beta) agree that the endure pain proc is better than S proc. but looking at how much endure pain soulbeast has (almost 16 seconds) i don’t think endure pain is as good as people think it is.

[Jeknar.6184]

> @choovanski.5462 said:

> @"Chaith.8256" the endure pain hate confuses me tbh. after nerfs it’s only 4 seconds with both trait & utility, & it doesn’t ignore cc or condis. mesmer’s distortion is 4 seconds, & it’s a full invun- which is much better imo. furthermore soulbeast has 15 1/2 seconds of endure pain & it’s widely considered bad. thats half a second off having 4x the duration of endure pain warrior has.

>

> like i (as an engi/warrior main since beta) agree that the endure pain proc is better than S proc. but looking at how much endure pain soulbeast has (almost 16 seconds) i don’t think endure pain is as good as people think it is.

 

The problem is that you are comparing only the effects... Yeah, Soulbeast physical immunity stacking is ridiculously high but is a Soulbeast as powerful as a Spellbreaker? Not by a longshot. In fact, I think running any other traitline instead of Marksman (Where the passive signet is) is much more useful for the ranger. And if you are running Black Bear pet, you are giving up powerful skills from Smokescale and/or Gazelle. Warrior in the other hand will always take defense traitline anyway for Adrenal Health, Shield Mastery, Cleansing Ire/Last Stand and he isn't even sacrificing anything for the Defy Pain because everything else in that tier is absolute garbage (Unless you are trying to run some Cull the Weak Mace Shenanigans)

[choovanski.5462]

> @Jeknar.6184 said:

> > @choovanski.5462 said:

> > @"Chaith.8256" the endure pain hate confuses me tbh. after nerfs it’s only 4 seconds with both trait & utility, & it doesn’t ignore cc or condis. mesmer’s distortion is 4 seconds, & it’s a full invun- which is much better imo. furthermore soulbeast has 15 1/2 seconds of endure pain & it’s widely considered bad. thats half a second off having 4x the duration of endure pain warrior has.

> >

> > like i (as an engi/warrior main since beta) agree that the endure pain proc is better than S proc. but looking at how much endure pain soulbeast has (almost 16 seconds) i don’t think endure pain is as good as people think it is.

>

> The problem is that you are comparing only the effects... Yeah, Soulbeast physical immunity stacking is ridiculously high but is a Soulbeast as powerful as a Spellbreaker? Not by a longshot. In fact, I think running any other traitline instead of Marksman (Where the passive signet is) is much more useful for the ranger. And if you are running Black Bear pet, you are giving up powerful skills from Smokescale and/or Gazelle. Warrior in the other hand will always take defense traitline anyway for Adrenal Health, Shield Mastery, Cleansing Ire/Last Stand and he isn't even sacrificing anything for the Defy Pain because everything else in that tier is absolute garbage (Unless you are trying to run some Cull the Weak Mace Shenanigans)

 

i would argue that marksmanship is actually a really strong traitline for power builds, its got opening strike & other buffs that are really strong with GS. if i remember correctly phanta runs it on his soulbeast build, as do others. if i had PoF (still too salty about berserker nerfs to buy it) i would run marksmanship, survival & soulbeast- but i don’t so i cant test viablity myself.

 

still, i am just comparing the effects- you are right there. but that’s kind of the point im making. that is, that endure pain is not what’s making spellbreaker so strong. because if endure pain was such a big deal, then soulbeast which has 4x the endure pain of warrior would be a ton better than it actually is. you actually support this when you say black bear (which has a 4s & a 3s endure pain on two separate cooldowns) is not as high value as a damage pet. which means endure pain really isn’t as good as people think it is, because if it was there would be no reason to ever not take black bear.

 

tbh, i think it’s the fact full counter & the spellbreaker traitline being overloaded that makes spellbreaker so OP- not endure pain.

 

as far as the defence line goes, dude- warrior is basically a free kill without it. sure some spellbreakers drop it for strength, but that’s only possible because spellbreaker is so overtuned. if anything being able to drop defence because you have spellbreaker shows that the spec is too strong.

warrior has awful build diversity. it needs discipline for fast hands, because all the weapons & warrior’s whole gameplay is designed around it. then it has to take defence, because it’s actually the only line that gives us sustain. tactics is trash, arms is like why, & might makes right is not enough sustain. so warrior has no choice but to take defence & discipline. like the other choices are two trash traitlines, & a damage line- which you need to give up for a specialisation.

[Kuya.6495]

It's the combination of effects. A soulbeast does have a higher duration damage immunity but a warrior can both be immune to phys damage and condi (using resistance) and on top of that, passively recover health. No class right now is capable of doing all 3 things the way a spellbreaker can simultaneously.

[Lighter.5631]

> @"Unholy Pillager.3791" said:

> > @Lighter.5631 said:

> > > @Anthony.7630 said:

> > > For those of you who don't know - engineer auto shrink makes them unable to attack (unlike warriors defy pain) and immune to physical damage but not conditional damage.

> > >

> > > The shrink elixir proc is a poor mans defy pain lol.

> > >

> > > Engineer must be played by holy people. Suffering is our lot in life.

> >

> > ?.......not so much...elixir S also immune CC's so u can safe stomp/res with it, you can't safe stomp/res with endure pain.

> > enemy can still apply conditions to you when endure pain.

> > but you take no additional conditions when you elixir S

>

> Warrior (well, spellbreaker at least) gets a lot of resistance (which holosmiths don't get) and stability (which the typical holosmith build has on one skill, apart from X which prevents attacking or skill use), so that really isn't a fair comparison. If a warrior is about to go down from condition ticks under endure pain, they can pop a cleanse or resistance. If an engineer is about to drop from conditions while in X, they get downed with no chance of preventing it.

 

i'm just comparing only S to endure pain, i know the reason why SB is strong now because its an combination of stab+resistance+endure pain, but that's multiple source or every thing

 

you can not counterpressure with endure pain a lone

[Razor.6392]

> @Kuya.6495 said:

> Removing auto immune traits would require a nerf to damage across the board. Otherwise new players would get spiked instantly without having a chance to realize what hit them.

>

> Additionally, i never hated on power thfs and power mesmers because i always had auto traits to protect me from that spike from stealth cheese. If all auto traits were removed, i can see thfs and mesmers rustling my jimmies pretty significantly.

 

Except not every class has auto-immune traits lol. Some got blocks, shadowsteps on cc, auto clear condi, shocking aura, etc. but only warrior and engi truly cheat death on the level of old vampirism runes.

 

 

[Vagrant.7206]

> @Razor.6392 said:

> > @Kuya.6495 said:

> > Removing auto immune traits would require a nerf to damage across the board. Otherwise new players would get spiked instantly without having a chance to realize what hit them.

> >

> > Additionally, i never hated on power thfs and power mesmers because i always had auto traits to protect me from that spike from stealth cheese. If all auto traits were removed, i can see thfs and mesmers rustling my jimmies pretty significantly.

>

> Except not every class has auto-immune traits lol. Some got blocks, shadowsteps on cc, auto clear condi, shocking aura, etc. but only warrior and engi truly cheat death on the level of old vampirism runes.

 

Except it's not really a "cheating death" for engineer. Most of the time it's just a temporary delay before death unless the engineer is lucky enough to not have condis on them, or they're able to get away quickly enough.

[Faux Play.6104]

Any decent engineer won't die in a 1v1. They have enough hard cc and double elixer s plus stealth plus leaps that they can escape and regen. combine that with their high dps they are a very tough class to fight unless your class can land a big condi bomb right before the auto proc elixer.

[Unholy Pillager.3791]

> @Razor.6392 said:

> > @Kuya.6495 said:

> > Removing auto immune traits would require a nerf to damage across the board. Otherwise new players would get spiked instantly without having a chance to realize what hit them.

> >

> > Additionally, i never hated on power thfs and power mesmers because i always had auto traits to protect me from that spike from stealth cheese. If all auto traits were removed, i can see thfs and mesmers rustling my jimmies pretty significantly.

>

> Except not every class has auto-immune traits lol. Some got blocks, shadowsteps on cc, auto clear condi, shocking aura, etc. but only warrior and engi truly cheat death on the level of old vampirism runes.

>

>

 

Rangers get stoneform, revenants get soothing bastion.

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"Faux Play.6104" said:

> Any decent engineer won't die in a 1v1.

Going by how OP all classes are any decent X wont die in a 1v1... and should they meet an engineer, the world will turn inside out and hamsters will rain from the sky.

[Jeknar.6184]

> @"Faux Play.6104" said:

> Any decent engineer won't die in a 1v1.

 

Have you ever heard of our lord and savior Spellbreaker?

[Chaith.8256]

 

> > @"Faux Play.6104" said:

> > Any decent engineer won't die in a 1v1.

>

> Have you ever heard of our lord and savior Spellbreaker?

 

He literally just meant "wont die", not because Holosmiths specialize in side node 1v1 role, but because they can escape...

[Arheundel.6451]

> @Vagrant.7206 said:

> > @Razor.6392 said:

> > > @Kuya.6495 said:

> > > Removing auto immune traits would require a nerf to damage across the board. Otherwise new players would get spiked instantly without having a chance to realize what hit them.

> > >

> > > Additionally, i never hated on power thfs and power mesmers because i always had auto traits to protect me from that spike from stealth cheese. If all auto traits were removed, i can see thfs and mesmers rustling my jimmies pretty significantly.

> >

> > Except not every class has auto-immune traits lol. Some got blocks, shadowsteps on cc, auto clear condi, shocking aura, etc. but only warrior and engi truly cheat death on the level of old vampirism runes.

>

> Except it's not really a "cheating death" for engineer. Most of the time it's just a temporary delay before death unless the engineer is lucky enough to not have condis on them, or they're able to get away quickly enough.

 

Point is...not all classes have auto-immune traits and this make pvp really unbalanced

[Exalted Quality.8534]

Holo is one of the most balanced specs in game right now. Don't mistake your need to get good with a class being broken...if you think holo is op wait until you go against a spell breaker...literally can mash random buttons while doing big damage and not dying.

[Elxdark.9702]

Holosmith is probably the most balanced pof spec so far, it's fun to watch and it's fun to play.

Yes it does high damage but it's also pretty squishy if you focus it, they do have mobility and invul to protect themselves from instant bursts or coordinated attacks which is way less frustrating than endure pain block full counter loop.

 

I agree that the double elixir S is annoying af but think about it if you remove it then they will die like in 5s from any teamfight or 2v2 or whatever, the same happens with endure pain on warrior.

[Vagrant.7206]

> @Arheundel.6451 said:

> > @Vagrant.7206 said:

> > > @Razor.6392 said:

> > > > @Kuya.6495 said:

> > > > Removing auto immune traits would require a nerf to damage across the board. Otherwise new players would get spiked instantly without having a chance to realize what hit them.

> > > >

> > > > Additionally, i never hated on power thfs and power mesmers because i always had auto traits to protect me from that spike from stealth cheese. If all auto traits were removed, i can see thfs and mesmers rustling my jimmies pretty significantly.

> > >

> > > Except not every class has auto-immune traits lol. Some got blocks, shadowsteps on cc, auto clear condi, shocking aura, etc. but only warrior and engi truly cheat death on the level of old vampirism runes.

> >

> > Except it's not really a "cheating death" for engineer. Most of the time it's just a temporary delay before death unless the engineer is lucky enough to not have condis on them, or they're able to get away quickly enough.

>

> Point is...not all classes have auto-immune traits and this make pvp really unbalanced

 

Does it though?

 

Bear in mind, alchemy is virtually *required* on every engineer PvP traitline because it is our only set of defensive traits. We're otherwise quite squishy. Elixir S usually saves us from getting spiked down, while many classes do have a "save" button of some sort (IE Necro shroud). The only difference is we can't control when this one happens.

 

> @"Exalted Quality.8534" said:

> Holo is one of the most balanced specs in game right now. Don't mistake your need to get good with a class being broken...if you think holo is op wait until you go against a spell breaker...literally can mash random buttons while doing big damage and not dying.

 

Man, are you guys incapable of recognizing sarcasm?

[YourFriendMarvin.4127]

I do agree passive S is annoying, but tbh take that away and engi is food. If you try running without Alchemy vs any decent players, you will be in downstate consistently most of the time. Until they give us better options to sustain ourselves then it's fine as long as you can't counter pressure or hold caps while you're in S. We can resort to Toolkit, but nearly everything is unblockable. We don't have much utilities or skills that give us evade frames/invulnerability as well. Passive S and Mobility are what keeps it somewhat viable.

[Jeknar.6184]

> @"Exalted Quality.8534" said:

> Holo is one of the most balanced specs in game right now. Don't mistake your need to get good with a class being broken...if you think holo is op wait until you go against a spell breaker...literally can mash random buttons while doing big damage and not dying.

 

Did you even read anything other than the title before posting?

[Khenzy.9348]

> @choovanski.5462 said:

> @"Chaith.8256" the endure pain hate confuses me tbh. after nerfs it’s only 4 seconds with both trait & utility, & it doesn’t ignore cc or condis. mesmer’s distortion is 4 seconds, & it’s a full invun- which is much better imo. furthermore soulbeast has 15 1/2 seconds of endure pain & it’s widely considered bad. thats half a second off having 4x the duration of endure pain warrior has.

>

> like i (as an engi/warrior main since beta) agree that the endure pain proc is better than S proc. but looking at how much endure pain soulbeast has (almost 16 seconds) i don’t think endure pain is as good as people think it is.

 

Wow, you're incredibly biased.

Whenever I encounter a warrior I feel like I'm hitting a brick wall that has a high uptime of immunities in every battle encounter, that is, they get those immunities very often, they are up at least once every encounter. A Soulbeast has to make HUGE sacrifices to attain long periods on physical invulnerability making for a poor gimmicky craptastic and unviable build, so it's not even remotely comparable.

 

These autoprocc traits need to go, period. I've been saying this for years now. If you're afraid of getting spiked down quickly, all they should do is nerf those instant burst combos like they did in the past or rebalance the risk-reward ratio.

[Arheundel.6451]

> @Khenzy.9348 said:

> > @choovanski.5462 said:

> > @"Chaith.8256" the endure pain hate confuses me tbh. after nerfs it’s only 4 seconds with both trait & utility, & it doesn’t ignore cc or condis. mesmer’s distortion is 4 seconds, & it’s a full invun- which is much better imo. furthermore soulbeast has 15 1/2 seconds of endure pain & it’s widely considered bad. thats half a second off having 4x the duration of endure pain warrior has.

> >

> > like i (as an engi/warrior main since beta) agree that the endure pain proc is better than S proc. but looking at how much endure pain soulbeast has (almost 16 seconds) i don’t think endure pain is as good as people think it is.

>

> Wow, you're incredibly biased.

> Whenever I encounter a warrior I feel like I'm hitting a brick wall that has a high uptime of immunities in every battle encounter, that is, they get those immunities very often, they are up at least once every encounter. A Soulbeast has to make HUGE sacrifices to attain long periods on physical invulnerability making for a poor gimmicky craptastic and unviable build, so it's not even remotely comparable.

>

> These autoprocc traits need to go, period. I've been saying this for years now. If you're afraid of getting spiked down quickly, all they should do is nerf those instant burst combos like they did in the past or rebalance the risk-reward ratio.

 

True words!

[Mikeskies.1536]

> @choovanski.5462 said:

> > @Jeknar.6184 said:

> > > @choovanski.5462 said:

> > > @"Chaith.8256" the endure pain hate confuses me tbh. after nerfs it’s only 4 seconds with both trait & utility, & it doesn’t ignore cc or condis. mesmer’s distortion is 4 seconds, & it’s a full invun- which is much better imo. furthermore soulbeast has 15 1/2 seconds of endure pain & it’s widely considered bad. thats half a second off having 4x the duration of endure pain warrior has.

> > >

> > > like i (as an engi/warrior main since beta) agree that the endure pain proc is better than S proc. but looking at how much endure pain soulbeast has (almost 16 seconds) i don’t think endure pain is as good as people think it is.

> >

> > The problem is that you are comparing only the effects... Yeah, Soulbeast physical immunity stacking is ridiculously high but is a Soulbeast as powerful as a Spellbreaker? Not by a longshot. In fact, I think running any other traitline instead of Marksman (Where the passive signet is) is much more useful for the ranger. And if you are running Black Bear pet, you are giving up powerful skills from Smokescale and/or Gazelle. Warrior in the other hand will always take defense traitline anyway for Adrenal Health, Shield Mastery, Cleansing Ire/Last Stand and he isn't even sacrificing anything for the Defy Pain because everything else in that tier is absolute garbage (Unless you are trying to run some Cull the Weak Mace Shenanigans)

>

> i would argue that marksmanship is actually a really strong traitline for power builds, its got opening strike & other buffs that are really strong with GS. if i remember correctly phanta runs it on his soulbeast build, as do others. if i had PoF (still too salty about berserker nerfs to buy it) i would run marksmanship, survival & soulbeast- but i don’t so i cant test viablity myself.

>

> still, i am just comparing the effects- you are right there. but that’s kind of the point im making. that is, that endure pain is not what’s making spellbreaker so strong. because if endure pain was such a big deal, then soulbeast which has 4x the endure pain of warrior would be a ton better than it actually is. you actually support this when you say black bear (which has a 4s & a 3s endure pain on two separate cooldowns) is not as high value as a damage pet. which means endure pain really isn’t as good as people think it is, because if it was there would be no reason to ever not take black bear.

>

> tbh, i think it’s the fact full counter & the spellbreaker traitline being overloaded that makes spellbreaker so OP- not endure pain.

>

> as far as the defence line goes, dude- warrior is basically a free kill without it. sure some spellbreakers drop it for strength, but that’s only possible because spellbreaker is so overtuned. if anything being able to drop defence because you have spellbreaker shows that the spec is too strong.

> warrior has awful build diversity. it needs discipline for fast hands, because all the weapons & warrior’s whole gameplay is designed around it. then it has to take defence, because it’s actually the only line that gives us sustain. tactics is trash, arms is like why, & might makes right is not enough sustain. so warrior has no choice but to take defence & discipline. like the other choices are two trash traitlines, & a damage line- which you need to give up for a specialisation.

 

Spellbreakers can drop Defense for Strength because of Might Makes Right, not Spellbreaker.

[Reaper Alim.4176]

> @Khenzy.9348 said:

> > @choovanski.5462 said:

> > @"Chaith.8256" the endure pain hate confuses me tbh. after nerfs it’s only 4 seconds with both trait & utility, & it doesn’t ignore cc or condis. mesmer’s distortion is 4 seconds, & it’s a full invun- which is much better imo. furthermore soulbeast has 15 1/2 seconds of endure pain & it’s widely considered bad. thats half a second off having 4x the duration of endure pain warrior has.

> >

> > like i (as an engi/warrior main since beta) agree that the endure pain proc is better than S proc. but looking at how much endure pain soulbeast has (almost 16 seconds) i don’t think endure pain is as good as people think it is.

>

> Wow, you're incredibly biased.

> Whenever I encounter a warrior I feel like I'm hitting a brick wall that has a high uptime of immunities in every battle encounter, that is, they get those immunities very often, they are up at least once every encounter. A Soulbeast has to make HUGE sacrifices to attain long periods on physical invulnerability making for a poor gimmicky craptastic and unviable build, so it's not even remotely comparable.

>

> These autoprocc traits need to go, period. I've been saying this for years now. If you're afraid of getting spiked down quickly, all they should do is nerf those instant burst combos like they did in the past or rebalance the risk-reward ratio.

 

I agree. But then the casual gamers who rely heavily on GW2's passive low risk/high reward mechanics. Would then be looking elsewhere, maybe a P2W type MMO. People just got to understand GW2 is only targeting the super casual gamers. Who stands no chance in other not so casual MMOs, which is pretty much all of them.

 

So they come here pick up the game. Grab the most brokenly overpowered low risk/high reward spec at the time. And just learn the rotations of said spec. Then proceed to go from zero to hero without much practice or grinding to be good. These are the targeted audience. They are super easy to please, because they don't care for balance. They only care to have "I win buttons/specs" and nothing else. Easy money in ANet's eye's, more so when they are the only ones providing such a experience.

[atheria.2837]

> @Vagrant.7206 said:

> Because we all know where **real** imbalance lies, right guys?

>

> (engi main here, this is sarcasm)

 

What builds?

 

I can't find a decent one anywhere accessible.

[Vague Memory.2817]

Holo damage is ridiculous like warr damage, but at least you can kite warrs. When I look at my combat log their damage is x6 that skill's base damage so each hit is between 3.5-5K with copious amount of CC to put you on you back. They chew through marauder amulet vit of 21.5K in secs.