How to nerf Herald/Renegade without killing it

[Skyronight.6370]

We know that rev is overperforming in PvP right now specifically the condition herald and renegade to an extent, the biggest problem with condi mallyx herald was not the energy cost but the resistance uptime, increasing energy cost on mallyx skills just made rev clunkier to play and just more risky since you have a higher chance of getting killed instantly without being able to use your stun break because of an absurd energy cost ( something that happened in NA mat final actually despite being on of the best revs in the game, the rev from team usa just insta died a few times).

 

The reason why condition herald is overpowered is because of these 2 traits, https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Demonic_Defiance , https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fiendish_Tenacity

condi herald is able to maintain near perma resistance which basically makes it immune to condi builds which is obviously game breaking to be almost immune to 1 source of damage, an easy fx would be to reduce the resistance on both of these traits by 1 second and revert the energy cost so condi rev dosent have to waste his entiere energy bar just to be able to use a break stun. That way there would be a higher window during which the condi rev can still receive condi damage.

Another issue is the f2 transfer which barely has an animation, they need to add a better animation to powerful ablities which dosent only apply to herald but the game in general. Shrio f2 facet active effect almost looks the same as the passive effect when you activate, f2 just needs a better animation to be able to react accordingly.

 

Renegade is also becoming more problematic as people started to notice how powerful it is and after EU won mat with 3 of them, the biggest issue with renegade is this ability

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Darkrazor%27s_Daring , its a pulsing aoe daze thats insta cast and has a massive aoe, it just promotes lazy gameplay , kinda like symbol brand by just being able to spam aoe with minimal effort and without having to land any abilities. Simply make this skill only daze one time when used instead of a pulsing daze. Renegade sustain is also too high because of the life steal from https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Soulcleave%27s_Summit . Reduce the life siphon healing by10-15% to shave the sustain on renegade and make it less tankier.

With these simple changes this game will alrdy be alot better and they can apply these changes before mota tournament without affecting the teams too much.

 

[JayAction.9056]

Nobody is responding... Hmm, wonder why?

 

You want to take away the only thing that allows condition Rev to even be playable. Ok good idea. (sarcasm)

 

 

 

> @"Skyronight.6370" said:

> We know that rev is overperforming in PvP right now specifically the condition herald and renegade to an extent, the biggest problem with condi mallyx herald was not the energy cost but the resistance uptime, increasing energy cost on mallyx skills just made rev clunkier to play and just more risky since you have a higher chance of getting killed instantly without being able to use your stun break because of an absurd energy cost ( something that happened in NA mat final actually despite being on of the best revs in the game, the rev from team usa just insta died a few times).

 

So, somebody **you** consider one of the best Revs was instantly dying? Yet, you want to take away the only pseudo strength of the build? **Where is the logic**?

 

 

Resistance is worse than Condi clears. **You can counter resistance.**

 

**Condi Rev has plenty weaknesses, and Renegade can easily be bursted down by a solo warrior**

 

You basically are crying to rework or straight nerf specs not because they are overpowered, but because you don't like the way they play.

 

That's the problem with this whole forum.

[Arcaniaxs.4519]

Let me tell u that the 90% of the only solutions the devs would consider is increasing the energy costs... and initiative costs for thieves... sry mate

[ollbirtan.2915]

Can the OP please define the 'WE' assumption that he/she makes? Who think that rev is over performing? Do you have data to back your claim?

[Exedore.6320]

Mallyx still has remnants if when it self-stacked conditions. There's no reason for it to have so much resistance anymore.

 

But honestly, I'd say the problem is with Herald more than Mallyx. I don't really see problems with Mallyx core builds.

[Shao.7236]

They aren't over performing.

 

They sure as hell cannot be facerolled either, Herald cRev is easier to an extend with F2 Mallyx Range but that's about it.

 

If you were to play properly, you'd know how the majority of Renegades and Heralds are doing it wrong and are free kills, because Revs can 1+ easily doesn't mean they are OP when you can deny them with simple CC's unless it's Core which you have to be more patient with, Renegades very often take initiative first and are left with nothing, should you not fall for it with reckless action it'll be an easy kill too.

[Leonidrex.5649]

> @"Shao.7236" said:

> They aren't over performing.

>

> They sure as hell cannot be facerolled either, Herald cRev is easier to an extend with F2 Mallyx Range but that's about it.

>

> If you were to play properly, you'd know how the majority of Renegades and Heralds are doing it wrong and are free kills, because Revs can 1+ easily doesn't mean they are OP when you can deny them with simple CC's unless it's Core which you have to be more patient with, Renegades very often take initiative first and are left with nothing, should you not fall for it with reckless action it'll be an easy kill too.

 

all I get from this is that most revs are bad so its ok :D

[mistsim.2748]

There's nothing about Renegade that's overperforming.

 

Malyx/Glint needs to be shaved in a few areas. It does too many things too well.

[mistsim.2748]

> @"Shao.7236" said:

> They aren't over performing.

>

> They sure as hell cannot be facerolled either, Herald cRev is easier to an extend with F2 Mallyx Range but that's about it.

>

> If you were to play properly, you'd know how the majority of Renegades and Heralds are doing it wrong and are free kills, because Revs can 1+ easily doesn't mean they are OP when you can deny them with simple CC's unless it's Core which you have to be more patient with, Renegades very often take initiative first and are left with nothing, should you not fall for it with reckless action it'll be an easy kill too.

 

Malyx/Glint can be facerolled. I learned it in 5-6 hours of play, then did a few matches in Plat 2, only focusing on my defensive ability rotations and nothing else. I was taking so much heat while cc'ing the enemy team, while my teammates cleaned up. It has an extremely low skill floor. High ceiling as well, and when played by a decent player it's entirely busted.

 

It shouldn't be able to bunker to the extent it does.

 

I don't want it to be killed, but either its defensive capacity, or cc need to be shaved.

[Skyronight.6370]

> @"Arcaniaxs.4519" said:

> Let me tell u that the 90% of the only solutions the devs would consider is increasing the energy costs... and initiative costs for thieves... sry mate

 

yeah its what they do its a lazy way of balancing because it dosent solve the problem. it just makes the class less enjoyable to play cuz you cant use any of your abilities with high energy costs

[Psycoprophet.8107]

Its anet, the team is literally meme worthy when it comes to any kind of sensible balancing so unfortunately the OP is not possible as the team will definitely run rev and make renegade even worse some how but what I can guarantee is that increasing energy cost will most likely be part of it as it is the lazy approach which the team takes more often than not, ini increase as well.

[Koen.1327]

> @"mistsim.2748" said:

> There's nothing about Renegade that's overperforming.

>

> Malyx/Glint needs to be shaved in a few areas. It does too many things too well.

 

what do u call something that, for the first time ever, won mat triple stacking a class that people only played a few hours/days on?

[choovanski.5462]

> @"Koen.1327" said:

> > @"mistsim.2748" said:

> > There's nothing about Renegade that's overperforming.

> >

> > Malyx/Glint needs to be shaved in a few areas. It does too many things too well.

>

> what do u call something that, for the first time ever, won mat triple stacking a class that people only played a few hours/days on?

 

dw, everyone in NA is completely sleeping on Renegade. it gets basically zero play, and they have no idea how strong it is.

 

like, trust. everyone in this thread who doesn't think renegade is over-performing is either an NA player, or just completely out of touch with the tournament meta in their region. there is absolutely no way you can have seen renegade in action, let alone played it, and think the build is 'ok'. it's hella busted

[Kulvar.1239]

> @"Koen.1327" said:

> > @"mistsim.2748" said:

> > There's nothing about Renegade that's overperforming.

> >

> > Malyx/Glint needs to be shaved in a few areas. It does too many things too well.

>

> what do u call something that, for the first time ever, won mat triple stacking a class that people only played a few hours/days on?

 

I call that a one time event that isn't enough data to judge anything.

[Koen.1327]

> @"Kulvar.1239" said:

> > @"Koen.1327" said:

> > > @"mistsim.2748" said:

> > > There's nothing about Renegade that's overperforming.

> > >

> > > Malyx/Glint needs to be shaved in a few areas. It does too many things too well.

> >

> > what do u call something that, for the first time ever, won mat triple stacking a class that people only played a few hours/days on?

>

> I call that a one time event that isn't enough data to judge anything.

 

except its not a one time they ran 4 renegades the month before probably first time playing it and got to semis

mota is a one time event, where class stacking is banned - obviously when this is over everybody goes back to stacking classes

 

the only reason not more people run this is because it severely hurts your morale as well as your brain

[Tayga.3192]

I don't know, other roamers take 3 dps traitlines (mirage and thief) but rev gets away with taking bunch of defensive traits and still does more damage than both.

 

Condi rev is strong but I don't know what to nerf on it.

 

(top 50 has 14 revs btw, and nearly all recent mATs are won with at least one rev)

[Kulvar.1239]

> @"Tayga.3192" said:

> I don't know, other roamers take 3 dps traitlines (mirage and thief) but rev gets away with taking bunch of defensive traits and still does more damage than both.

>

> Condi rev is strong but I don't know what to nerf on it.

>

> (top 50 has 14 revs btw, and nearly all recent mATs are won with at least one rev)

 

Where do you see the PvP top 50 ? On the official website I can only see a top for achievements and WvW.

[Exedore.6320]

> @"choovanski.5462" said:

> dw, everyone in NA is completely sleeping on Renegade. it gets basically zero play, and they have no idea how strong it is.

Renegade only seems to work at a competitive level when you have multiple of them to chain their AoEs back-to-back. Otherwise the AoEs expire and the lone renegade gets clobbered.

[MysteryMen.3791]

> @"Kulvar.1239" said:

> > @"Tayga.3192" said:

> > I don't know, other roamers take 3 dps traitlines (mirage and thief) but rev gets away with taking bunch of defensive traits and still does more damage than both.

> >

> > Condi rev is strong but I don't know what to nerf on it.

> >

> > (top 50 has 14 revs btw, and nearly all recent mATs are won with at least one rev)

>

> Where do you see the PvP top 50 ? On the official website I can only see a top for achievements and WvW.

 

There was a slightly unofficial but accurate list made by Falan for EU top 50 last season and the end results are as follows:

13 multiclass

 

3 warr

5 guard

14 rev

 

7 ranger

12 thief

7 engi

 

4 nec

1 ele

1 mes

 

and unsurprisingly its mostly thieves and revs closely followed by multiclassers who can swap reactively in a game making it very strong.

[MysteryMen.3791]

> @"Shao.7236" said:

> They aren't over performing.

>

> They sure as hell cannot be facerolled either, Herald cRev is easier to an extend with F2 Mallyx Range but that's about it.

>

> If you were to play properly, you'd know how the majority of Renegades and Heralds are doing it wrong and are free kills, because Revs can 1+ easily doesn't mean they are OP when you can deny them with simple CC's unless it's Core which you have to be more patient with, Renegades very often take initiative first and are left with nothing, should you not fall for it with reckless action it'll be an easy kill too.

 

in what universe could you say that condi rev isn't overperforming? It has so much resistance to condis that a regular condi build can't do any damage to it and it has great cleave as well. Not to mention rev as a whole dominates top tier ranked and the mAT at the moment so I ask again, how is that considered standard performance?

[apharma.3741]

I got halfway then skimmed the rest, you start out good but you missed the mark. Resistance as a boon is simply too strong. Think about it, it makes you completely immune to all negative effects from conditions and a whole type of damage, if this had a power variant it would be aegis++ where it blocks the next 3 attacks and also means you don't suffer the negative effects of conditions.

 

Resistance needs to be changed, I said this a long long time ago and so did many others, perhaps it should half condition damage taken (doesn't have to be half, pick a number) and only affect damage conditions.

[Kulvar.1239]

> @"MysteryMen.3791" said:

> > @"Kulvar.1239" said:

> > > @"Tayga.3192" said:

> > > I don't know, other roamers take 3 dps traitlines (mirage and thief) but rev gets away with taking bunch of defensive traits and still does more damage than both.

> > >

> > > Condi rev is strong but I don't know what to nerf on it.

> > >

> > > (top 50 has 14 revs btw, and nearly all recent mATs are won with at least one rev)

> >

> > Where do you see the PvP top 50 ? On the official website I can only see a top for achievements and WvW.

>

> There was a slightly unofficial but accurate list made by Falan for EU top 50 last season and the end results are as follows:

> 13 multiclass

>

> 3 warr

> 5 guard

> 14 rev

>

> 7 ranger

> 12 thief

> 7 engi

>

> 4 nec

> 1 ele

> 1 mes

>

> and unsurprisingly its mostly thieves and revs closely followed by multiclassers who can swap reactively in a game making it very strong.

 

Too bad ! I would prefer an official PvP ladder from ANet with account names and most played class (with a %).

[MysteryMen.3791]

> @"Kulvar.1239" said:

> > @"MysteryMen.3791" said:

> > > @"Kulvar.1239" said:

> > > > @"Tayga.3192" said:

> > > > I don't know, other roamers take 3 dps traitlines (mirage and thief) but rev gets away with taking bunch of defensive traits and still does more damage than both.

> > > >

> > > > Condi rev is strong but I don't know what to nerf on it.

> > > >

> > > > (top 50 has 14 revs btw, and nearly all recent mATs are won with at least one rev)

> > >

> > > Where do you see the PvP top 50 ? On the official website I can only see a top for achievements and WvW.

> >

> > There was a slightly unofficial but accurate list made by Falan for EU top 50 last season and the end results are as follows:

> > 13 multiclass

> >

> > 3 warr

> > 5 guard

> > 14 rev

> >

> > 7 ranger

> > 12 thief

> > 7 engi

> >

> > 4 nec

> > 1 ele

> > 1 mes

> >

> > and unsurprisingly its mostly thieves and revs closely followed by multiclassers who can swap reactively in a game making it very strong.

>

> Too bad ! I would prefer an official PvP ladder from ANet with account names and most played class (with a %).

 

Yea I would as well, some other games with PvP ranked systems allow you to view the profiles of top 250 players so you can look at their most played classes, choices, winrate and more which is quite handy for analysis.

[Fueki.4753]

> @"choovanski.5462" said:

> everyone in this thread who doesn't think renegade is over-performing is either an NA player, or just completely out of touch with the tournament meta in their region. there is absolutely no way you can have seen renegade in action, let alone played it, and think the build is 'ok'. it's hella busted

 

If Renegade is the problem, shave renegade and don't touch core.

 

[cek.5478]

Everybody talking about condi thief but the real problem is revenant to me.. OP on every single game mode and actually i never seen such an op class like this ever. This is for pvp lets see what they have.

 

Evades, Blocks, Blinds, Insane condi spamming, endless CCs (immoblize, slow, knockdown, knockback etc..), they gaining fury and might without doing anything and sharing it like a joke. Every single revenant playing with 25 mights, fury, resistance and protection with heavy armor. Worst april fool joke!

 

A true solution remove Herald! But anet never gonna do that for new care baby, golden child whatever. So what can be done. I suggest remove might from dragon stance and add a thing like necro carapice. If its gonna be unlimited stack, make it 1 power each. if limited with 25 make it 3 power each and remove sharing.