Obtena.7952 Posted June 5, 2020 Share Posted June 5, 2020 > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Funky.4861" said: > > > > > > > > > Well, having read three pages of 'discussion' i thought i'd add my tuppence :) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Correct me if i'm wrong, but the OP sees a massive difference in dps between classes for pve instanced content and assumes that the desirability of a class depends on what they bring to the table in terms of a combination of dps, healing, and party-wide buffs (like banners or assassins' presence). Noting that necro is at the bottom of the dps charts, the solution appears to be to buff dps to increase desirability, because necro cannot compete with say SB/Temp/firebrigade regarding group utility. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If necro dps is buffed, it has to compete with other dps classes (noting that some benchmarks depend on the class having buffs and/or the target having conditions, eg: power chrono relies on high slow uptime). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Would it perhaps be beneficial to buff necro in other ways, for example manifest sand shade grants quickness, or entering reaper shroud gives alacrity, exiting death shroud heals and rips/converts a boon? I love my necro, but being told by my raid static that i did good on it because of epi timings feels kinda bad. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, I would be beneficial to buff necro in this way because anyone that understands meta and who is reasonable understands that Necro isn't going to get a 15-20% flat DPS increase to compete with established DPS meta classes to being with. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This depends on what the designed role of the spec is supposed to be. If its supposed to be a DPS spec then its performance, with absolutely everything considered, should be around the same total power level as others who are designed to be in the same role. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It also has to remain within the scope and thematic of the class or direction Anet want to take it via and elite spec. > > > > > > > > > > > > Except when have you known Anet to assign roles to specs? That approach doesn't work in this game. It's not how content is designed. > > > > > > > > > > Each spec has a design goal on mind? That's very clear to see. > > > > > > > > That doesn't answer my question. Anet doesn't assign roles to specs. They give skills to themes applied to them. That's a very different approach to class design that allows quite a large area of grey in what 'role' something has in a game with no holy trinity. > > > > > > > > > > Its not really that different. Its pretty much arguing semantics. Enabling something that was previously not that possible or prevalent on a spec is no less different than saying this spec is supposed to be played as X/Y/Z. Players can, and will, play the spec how the current meta and game design allows in a fashion for some form of being acceptable / "viable" but this doesn't detract from the specific goals of the specs design. Neither should the possible multiple role scopes of the specs. Just because there is a lot of grey doesn't mean that one of the assigned roles, by design, of something isn't there. I.e scourge by design is supposed to fit into a support role as one of its scopes. > > > > > > Things are grey but I don't think they are as grey as you think they are. > > > > > > > > It's no arguing semantics at all. The decision for Anet to throw away holy trinity gives them the freedom to give classes skills based on theme instead of roles. That's why the class system in this game is so varied and we can play how we want and succeed. > > Just because there is no trinity doesn't mean specs are not designed with a specific set of roles/ niches in mind. That's true ... it just means Anet has the freedom to not constrain themselves with whatever roles are traditionally used to define team content. If you don't think Anet is developing classes based on theme vs. roles, you can check my sig for one of a few examples of that. > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > Also saying "this is the theme of the spec, no roles". Themes in themselves are scopes for roles. Theme = (possible role n, possible role n+1 ...).You can literally look at the design of any spec that has been added, the accompanying trailer or mention by Anet, and see things clearly have a certain set of roles in mind when designed. > OK, I mean, we can disagree about how the game design impacts class skills ... but there is no debate that Necro is going to compete in the meta for a DPS spot because of some artificial role labeling players impose on the class, which is the whole root of our discussion in the first place ... You think labeling necro 'DPS SPEC' requires that they have equivalent DPS to other class DPS specs ... it's just not that simple, real or necessary in this game to play how you want and be successful. Anet even hints at how other non-DPS factors influence the whole performance of the class. That doesn't become irrelevant because players have active imaginations of how they think the game should work. The fact is that BECAUSE there is no trinity, Anet has the freedom to do what they want on class skills. How much they choose to use that freedom is up to them. Clearly, we see things like druid added ... but not because we all the sudden have a holy trinity content situation. It's as simple as Anet explained ... it's flavours and some people find a use for flavours that have healing abilities. Where they are useful is up to the player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadnir.5038 Posted June 5, 2020 Share Posted June 5, 2020 > @"Anchoku.8142" said: > A bug had halved Necro's life force pool for years, too, before a forum member calculated and posted it for Arenanet to look into. Staff required traiting to make large marks else they were smaller than today. There was a large number of very good reasons why Necro was a reviled profession. Its core incompetence still lurks under the bandages and buffs but it is far, far less out-of-meta than it was. > The bug wasn't on the life force, it was on the downstate health. Because shroud was originally supposed to be the necromancer's downstate, the downstate ended up having the shroud amount of life. It took months before someone pointed this fact so ANet eventually fixed it. That said, I wouldn't say the issue was "core incompetence", it's just that the necromancer wasn't satisfying the player's requirement for PvE end game: mobility, blast, fields and cleave. Now, Anet made mobility, blast and field irrelevant and gave him cleave so the necromancer's state is indeed better than it used to be. The issue that the necromancer have now is that the players have new requirement for PvE end game and the necromancer still don't quite satisfy them. NB.: The feedback focusing on DPS is probably one of the reason the necromancer is still unwelcome in PvE end game. It's the very design of the necromancer that don't work for PvE, not really it's dps. This design, if not really engaging, is balanced for a PvP environment, unfortunately, unlike GW, PvP and PvE are very different things in GW2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigmoid.7082 Posted June 5, 2020 Share Posted June 5, 2020 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Funky.4861" said: > > > > > > > > > > Well, having read three pages of 'discussion' i thought i'd add my tuppence :) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Correct me if i'm wrong, but the OP sees a massive difference in dps between classes for pve instanced content and assumes that the desirability of a class depends on what they bring to the table in terms of a combination of dps, healing, and party-wide buffs (like banners or assassins' presence). Noting that necro is at the bottom of the dps charts, the solution appears to be to buff dps to increase desirability, because necro cannot compete with say SB/Temp/firebrigade regarding group utility. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If necro dps is buffed, it has to compete with other dps classes (noting that some benchmarks depend on the class having buffs and/or the target having conditions, eg: power chrono relies on high slow uptime). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Would it perhaps be beneficial to buff necro in other ways, for example manifest sand shade grants quickness, or entering reaper shroud gives alacrity, exiting death shroud heals and rips/converts a boon? I love my necro, but being told by my raid static that i did good on it because of epi timings feels kinda bad. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, I would be beneficial to buff necro in this way because anyone that understands meta and who is reasonable understands that Necro isn't going to get a 15-20% flat DPS increase to compete with established DPS meta classes to being with. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This depends on what the designed role of the spec is supposed to be. If its supposed to be a DPS spec then its performance, with absolutely everything considered, should be around the same total power level as others who are designed to be in the same role. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It also has to remain within the scope and thematic of the class or direction Anet want to take it via and elite spec. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Except when have you known Anet to assign roles to specs? That approach doesn't work in this game. It's not how content is designed. > > > > > > > > > > > > Each spec has a design goal on mind? That's very clear to see. > > > > > > > > > > That doesn't answer my question. Anet doesn't assign roles to specs. They give skills to themes applied to them. That's a very different approach to class design that allows quite a large area of grey in what 'role' something has in a game with no holy trinity. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its not really that different. Its pretty much arguing semantics. Enabling something that was previously not that possible or prevalent on a spec is no less different than saying this spec is supposed to be played as X/Y/Z. Players can, and will, play the spec how the current meta and game design allows in a fashion for some form of being acceptable / "viable" but this doesn't detract from the specific goals of the specs design. Neither should the possible multiple role scopes of the specs. Just because there is a lot of grey doesn't mean that one of the assigned roles, by design, of something isn't there. I.e scourge by design is supposed to fit into a support role as one of its scopes. > > > > > > > > Things are grey but I don't think they are as grey as you think they are. > > > > > > > > > > > It's no arguing semantics at all. The decision for Anet to throw away holy trinity gives them the freedom to give classes skills based on theme instead of roles. That's why the class system in this game is so varied and we can play how we want and succeed. > > > > Just because there is no trinity doesn't mean specs are not designed with a specific set of roles/ niches in mind. Also saying "this is the theme of the spec, no roles". Themes in themselves are scopes for roles. Theme = (possible role n, possible role n+1 ...).You can literally look at the design of any spec that has been added, the accompanying trailer or mention by Anet, and see things clearly have a certain set of roles in mind when designed. > > > OK, I mean, we can disagree about how the game design impacts class skills ... but there is no debate that Necro is going to compete in the meta for a DPS spot because of some artificial role labeling players impose on the class, which is the whole root of our discussion in the first place ... You think labeling necro 'DPS SPEC' requires that they have equivalent DPS to other class DPS specs ... it's just not that simple or even real in this game. Anet even hints at how other non-DPS factors influence the whole performance of the class. That doesn't become irrelevant because players have active imaginations of how they think the game should work. > > Im not labeling necro a DPS spec but reaper. Very different things. DPS isn't the only thing it does hence the considering the package as a whole. We've seen this in the past where reaper now is far less tanky and Condi focused than its previous iterations but it does *FAR* more power damage. Literally all that needs to happen to reaper to be "more competitive" is lower the self might generation in spite and replace it with a conditional damage modifier. Necro as a whole has lower maximum power because it's so self reliant. The downside to that argument is this seems to be by design. We'll see what happens to the specs in future but it will be very interesting to see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted June 5, 2020 Share Posted June 5, 2020 > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Funky.4861" said: > > > > > > > > > > > Well, having read three pages of 'discussion' i thought i'd add my tuppence :) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Correct me if i'm wrong, but the OP sees a massive difference in dps between classes for pve instanced content and assumes that the desirability of a class depends on what they bring to the table in terms of a combination of dps, healing, and party-wide buffs (like banners or assassins' presence). Noting that necro is at the bottom of the dps charts, the solution appears to be to buff dps to increase desirability, because necro cannot compete with say SB/Temp/firebrigade regarding group utility. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If necro dps is buffed, it has to compete with other dps classes (noting that some benchmarks depend on the class having buffs and/or the target having conditions, eg: power chrono relies on high slow uptime). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Would it perhaps be beneficial to buff necro in other ways, for example manifest sand shade grants quickness, or entering reaper shroud gives alacrity, exiting death shroud heals and rips/converts a boon? I love my necro, but being told by my raid static that i did good on it because of epi timings feels kinda bad. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, I would be beneficial to buff necro in this way because anyone that understands meta and who is reasonable understands that Necro isn't going to get a 15-20% flat DPS increase to compete with established DPS meta classes to being with. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This depends on what the designed role of the spec is supposed to be. If its supposed to be a DPS spec then its performance, with absolutely everything considered, should be around the same total power level as others who are designed to be in the same role. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It also has to remain within the scope and thematic of the class or direction Anet want to take it via and elite spec. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Except when have you known Anet to assign roles to specs? That approach doesn't work in this game. It's not how content is designed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Each spec has a design goal on mind? That's very clear to see. > > > > > > > > > > > > That doesn't answer my question. Anet doesn't assign roles to specs. They give skills to themes applied to them. That's a very different approach to class design that allows quite a large area of grey in what 'role' something has in a game with no holy trinity. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its not really that different. Its pretty much arguing semantics. Enabling something that was previously not that possible or prevalent on a spec is no less different than saying this spec is supposed to be played as X/Y/Z. Players can, and will, play the spec how the current meta and game design allows in a fashion for some form of being acceptable / "viable" but this doesn't detract from the specific goals of the specs design. Neither should the possible multiple role scopes of the specs. Just because there is a lot of grey doesn't mean that one of the assigned roles, by design, of something isn't there. I.e scourge by design is supposed to fit into a support role as one of its scopes. > > > > > > > > > > Things are grey but I don't think they are as grey as you think they are. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's no arguing semantics at all. The decision for Anet to throw away holy trinity gives them the freedom to give classes skills based on theme instead of roles. That's why the class system in this game is so varied and we can play how we want and succeed. > > > > > > Just because there is no trinity doesn't mean specs are not designed with a specific set of roles/ niches in mind. Also saying "this is the theme of the spec, no roles". Themes in themselves are scopes for roles. Theme = (possible role n, possible role n+1 ...).You can literally look at the design of any spec that has been added, the accompanying trailer or mention by Anet, and see things clearly have a certain set of roles in mind when designed. > > > > > OK, I mean, we can disagree about how the game design impacts class skills ... but there is no debate that Necro is going to compete in the meta for a DPS spot because of some artificial role labeling players impose on the class, which is the whole root of our discussion in the first place ... You think labeling necro 'DPS SPEC' requires that they have equivalent DPS to other class DPS specs ... it's just not that simple or even real in this game. Anet even hints at how other non-DPS factors influence the whole performance of the class. That doesn't become irrelevant because players have active imaginations of how they think the game should work. > > > > > > Im not labeling necro a DPS spec but reaper. Very different things. DPS isn't the only thing it does hence the considering the package as a whole. > > We've seen this in the past where reaper now is far less tanky and Condi focused than its previous iterations but it does *FAR* more power damage. Right ... you say DPS isn't the only thing it does hence the considering the package as a whole. ... but your trying to tell me it's a DPS spec that should have similar DPS output to other DPS specs because DPS spec. I mean, I can't think of a more conflicting, contrived argument. labeling things whatever you want as selectively as you want doesn't justify equivalent DPS between classes. You reference game changes that exactly demonstrate what I'm saying ... the changes Anet makes aren't to balance DPS over classes. It's theme based. If you guys are right and Anet wanted to make Reaper and other classes DPS equivalent ... why didn't they do it when they made the changes you are talking about? Why would they go through the effort of taking a tanky, condi focused spec and making it power damage without balancing it's DPS for meta? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigmoid.7082 Posted June 5, 2020 Share Posted June 5, 2020 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Funky.4861" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > Well, having read three pages of 'discussion' i thought i'd add my tuppence :) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Correct me if i'm wrong, but the OP sees a massive difference in dps between classes for pve instanced content and assumes that the desirability of a class depends on what they bring to the table in terms of a combination of dps, healing, and party-wide buffs (like banners or assassins' presence). Noting that necro is at the bottom of the dps charts, the solution appears to be to buff dps to increase desirability, because necro cannot compete with say SB/Temp/firebrigade regarding group utility. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If necro dps is buffed, it has to compete with other dps classes (noting that some benchmarks depend on the class having buffs and/or the target having conditions, eg: power chrono relies on high slow uptime). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Would it perhaps be beneficial to buff necro in other ways, for example manifest sand shade grants quickness, or entering reaper shroud gives alacrity, exiting death shroud heals and rips/converts a boon? I love my necro, but being told by my raid static that i did good on it because of epi timings feels kinda bad. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, I would be beneficial to buff necro in this way because anyone that understands meta and who is reasonable understands that Necro isn't going to get a 15-20% flat DPS increase to compete with established DPS meta classes to being with. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This depends on what the designed role of the spec is supposed to be. If its supposed to be a DPS spec then its performance, with absolutely everything considered, should be around the same total power level as others who are designed to be in the same role. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It also has to remain within the scope and thematic of the class or direction Anet want to take it via and elite spec. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Except when have you known Anet to assign roles to specs? That approach doesn't work in this game. It's not how content is designed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Each spec has a design goal on mind? That's very clear to see. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That doesn't answer my question. Anet doesn't assign roles to specs. They give skills to themes applied to them. That's a very different approach to class design that allows quite a large area of grey in what 'role' something has in a game with no holy trinity. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its not really that different. Its pretty much arguing semantics. Enabling something that was previously not that possible or prevalent on a spec is no less different than saying this spec is supposed to be played as X/Y/Z. Players can, and will, play the spec how the current meta and game design allows in a fashion for some form of being acceptable / "viable" but this doesn't detract from the specific goals of the specs design. Neither should the possible multiple role scopes of the specs. Just because there is a lot of grey doesn't mean that one of the assigned roles, by design, of something isn't there. I.e scourge by design is supposed to fit into a support role as one of its scopes. > > > > > > > > > > > > Things are grey but I don't think they are as grey as you think they are. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's no arguing semantics at all. The decision for Anet to throw away holy trinity gives them the freedom to give classes skills based on theme instead of roles. That's why the class system in this game is so varied and we can play how we want and succeed. > > > > > > > > Just because there is no trinity doesn't mean specs are not designed with a specific set of roles/ niches in mind. Also saying "this is the theme of the spec, no roles". Themes in themselves are scopes for roles. Theme = (possible role n, possible role n+1 ...).You can literally look at the design of any spec that has been added, the accompanying trailer or mention by Anet, and see things clearly have a certain set of roles in mind when designed. > > > > > > > OK, I mean, we can disagree about how the game design impacts class skills ... but there is no debate that Necro is going to compete in the meta for a DPS spot because of some artificial role labeling players impose on the class, which is the whole root of our discussion in the first place ... You think labeling necro 'DPS SPEC' requires that they have equivalent DPS to other class DPS specs ... it's just not that simple or even real in this game. Anet even hints at how other non-DPS factors influence the whole performance of the class. That doesn't become irrelevant because players have active imaginations of how they think the game should work. > > > > > > > > > > Im not labeling necro a DPS spec but reaper. Very different things. DPS isn't the only thing it does hence the considering the package as a whole. > > > > We've seen this in the past where reaper now is far less tanky and Condi focused than its previous iterations but it does *FAR* more power damage. > > Right ... you say DPS isn't the only thing it does hence the considering the package as a whole. ... but your trying to tell me it's a DPS spec that should have similar DPS output to other DPS specs because DPS spec. I mean, I can't think of a more conflicting, contrived argument. labeling things whatever you want as selectively as you want doesn't justify equivalent DPS between classes. > > You reference game changes that exactly demonstrate what I'm saying ... the changes Anet makes aren't to balance DPS over classes. It's theme based. If you guys are right and Anet wanted to make Reaper and other classes DPS equivalent ... why didn't they do it when they made the changes you are talking about? Why would they go through the effort of taking a tanky, condi focused spec and making it power damage without balancing it's DPS for meta? At no point have I said it need comparative DPS...I had a long reply..but then I thought it best not to continue this further. Its absolutely fruitless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted June 5, 2020 Share Posted June 5, 2020 > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Funky.4861" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well, having read three pages of 'discussion' i thought i'd add my tuppence :) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Correct me if i'm wrong, but the OP sees a massive difference in dps between classes for pve instanced content and assumes that the desirability of a class depends on what they bring to the table in terms of a combination of dps, healing, and party-wide buffs (like banners or assassins' presence). Noting that necro is at the bottom of the dps charts, the solution appears to be to buff dps to increase desirability, because necro cannot compete with say SB/Temp/firebrigade regarding group utility. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If necro dps is buffed, it has to compete with other dps classes (noting that some benchmarks depend on the class having buffs and/or the target having conditions, eg: power chrono relies on high slow uptime). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Would it perhaps be beneficial to buff necro in other ways, for example manifest sand shade grants quickness, or entering reaper shroud gives alacrity, exiting death shroud heals and rips/converts a boon? I love my necro, but being told by my raid static that i did good on it because of epi timings feels kinda bad. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, I would be beneficial to buff necro in this way because anyone that understands meta and who is reasonable understands that Necro isn't going to get a 15-20% flat DPS increase to compete with established DPS meta classes to being with. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This depends on what the designed role of the spec is supposed to be. If its supposed to be a DPS spec then its performance, with absolutely everything considered, should be around the same total power level as others who are designed to be in the same role. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It also has to remain within the scope and thematic of the class or direction Anet want to take it via and elite spec. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Except when have you known Anet to assign roles to specs? That approach doesn't work in this game. It's not how content is designed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Each spec has a design goal on mind? That's very clear to see. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That doesn't answer my question. Anet doesn't assign roles to specs. They give skills to themes applied to them. That's a very different approach to class design that allows quite a large area of grey in what 'role' something has in a game with no holy trinity. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its not really that different. Its pretty much arguing semantics. Enabling something that was previously not that possible or prevalent on a spec is no less different than saying this spec is supposed to be played as X/Y/Z. Players can, and will, play the spec how the current meta and game design allows in a fashion for some form of being acceptable / "viable" but this doesn't detract from the specific goals of the specs design. Neither should the possible multiple role scopes of the specs. Just because there is a lot of grey doesn't mean that one of the assigned roles, by design, of something isn't there. I.e scourge by design is supposed to fit into a support role as one of its scopes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Things are grey but I don't think they are as grey as you think they are. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's no arguing semantics at all. The decision for Anet to throw away holy trinity gives them the freedom to give classes skills based on theme instead of roles. That's why the class system in this game is so varied and we can play how we want and succeed. > > > > > > > > > > Just because there is no trinity doesn't mean specs are not designed with a specific set of roles/ niches in mind. Also saying "this is the theme of the spec, no roles". Themes in themselves are scopes for roles. Theme = (possible role n, possible role n+1 ...).You can literally look at the design of any spec that has been added, the accompanying trailer or mention by Anet, and see things clearly have a certain set of roles in mind when designed. > > > > > > > > > OK, I mean, we can disagree about how the game design impacts class skills ... but there is no debate that Necro is going to compete in the meta for a DPS spot because of some artificial role labeling players impose on the class, which is the whole root of our discussion in the first place ... You think labeling necro 'DPS SPEC' requires that they have equivalent DPS to other class DPS specs ... it's just not that simple or even real in this game. Anet even hints at how other non-DPS factors influence the whole performance of the class. That doesn't become irrelevant because players have active imaginations of how they think the game should work. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Im not labeling necro a DPS spec but reaper. Very different things. DPS isn't the only thing it does hence the considering the package as a whole. > > > > > > We've seen this in the past where reaper now is far less tanky and Condi focused than its previous iterations but it does *FAR* more power damage. > > > > Right ... you say DPS isn't the only thing it does hence the considering the package as a whole. ... but your trying to tell me it's a DPS spec that should have similar DPS output to other DPS specs because DPS spec. I mean, I can't think of a more conflicting, contrived argument. labeling things whatever you want as selectively as you want doesn't justify equivalent DPS between classes. > > > > You reference game changes that exactly demonstrate what I'm saying ... the changes Anet makes aren't to balance DPS over classes. It's theme based. If you guys are right and Anet wanted to make Reaper and other classes DPS equivalent ... why didn't they do it when they made the changes you are talking about? Why would they go through the effort of taking a tanky, condi focused spec and making it power damage without balancing it's DPS for meta? > > At no point have I said it need comparative DPS...I had a long reply..but then I thought it best not to continue this further. Its absolutely fruitless. For real? Um ok ... > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"Funky.4861" said: > > > Well, having read three pages of 'discussion' i thought i'd add my tuppence :) > > > > > > Correct me if i'm wrong, but the OP sees a massive difference in dps between classes for pve instanced content and assumes that the desirability of a class depends on what they bring to the table in terms of a combination of dps, healing, and party-wide buffs (like banners or assassins' presence). Noting that necro is at the bottom of the dps charts, the solution appears to be to buff dps to increase desirability, because necro cannot compete with say SB/Temp/firebrigade regarding group utility. > > > > > > If necro dps is buffed, it has to compete with other dps classes (noting that some benchmarks depend on the class having buffs and/or the target having conditions, eg: power chrono relies on high slow uptime). > > > > > > Would it perhaps be beneficial to buff necro in other ways, for example manifest sand shade grants quickness, or entering reaper shroud gives alacrity, exiting death shroud heals and rips/converts a boon? I love my necro, but being told by my raid static that i did good on it because of epi timings feels kinda bad. > > > > Yes, I would be beneficial to buff necro in this way because anyone that understands meta and who is reasonable understands that Necro isn't going to get a 15-20% flat DPS increase to compete with established DPS meta classes to being with. > > This depends on what the designed role of the spec is supposed to be. **If its supposed to be a DPS spec then its performance, with absolutely everything considered, should be around the same total power level as others who are designed to be in the same role**. > > It also has to remain within the scope and thematic of the class or direction Anet want to take it via and elite spec. So you didn't mean this when you said it? I mean, either you are labeling and making that comparison ... or you aren't. Maybe I'm interpreting this wrong but to me that says: **All DPS specs (whatever those are) should have the same power, even when considering other factors** So if you aren't talking about comparative DPS here and forgetting that Anet doesn't label anything a DPS spec, what makes you think Anet isn't considering all factors to give necro it's power compared to other classes? See, the problem here is that we don't know if Anet is or isn't doing this or if they are doing it how it's done ... the fact is that it doesn't matter if we know; the labels, the DPS benchmarks, the player-based ideas of how things should be ... all of that is an artificial imposition created by players in an attempt to interpret the game ... some people doing so to attempt to justify things they want. The reality is that we only know what we can see from how the game works and what we can do in it and what Anet tells us ... and based on that, I know that people can play how they want and succeed in the endgame, which is Anet's intention for the game from the outset. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigmoid.7082 Posted June 5, 2020 Share Posted June 5, 2020 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Funky.4861" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well, having read three pages of 'discussion' i thought i'd add my tuppence :) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Correct me if i'm wrong, but the OP sees a massive difference in dps between classes for pve instanced content and assumes that the desirability of a class depends on what they bring to the table in terms of a combination of dps, healing, and party-wide buffs (like banners or assassins' presence). Noting that necro is at the bottom of the dps charts, the solution appears to be to buff dps to increase desirability, because necro cannot compete with say SB/Temp/firebrigade regarding group utility. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If necro dps is buffed, it has to compete with other dps classes (noting that some benchmarks depend on the class having buffs and/or the target having conditions, eg: power chrono relies on high slow uptime). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Would it perhaps be beneficial to buff necro in other ways, for example manifest sand shade grants quickness, or entering reaper shroud gives alacrity, exiting death shroud heals and rips/converts a boon? I love my necro, but being told by my raid static that i did good on it because of epi timings feels kinda bad. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, I would be beneficial to buff necro in this way because anyone that understands meta and who is reasonable understands that Necro isn't going to get a 15-20% flat DPS increase to compete with established DPS meta classes to being with. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This depends on what the designed role of the spec is supposed to be. If its supposed to be a DPS spec then its performance, with absolutely everything considered, should be around the same total power level as others who are designed to be in the same role. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It also has to remain within the scope and thematic of the class or direction Anet want to take it via and elite spec. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Except when have you known Anet to assign roles to specs? That approach doesn't work in this game. It's not how content is designed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Each spec has a design goal on mind? That's very clear to see. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That doesn't answer my question. Anet doesn't assign roles to specs. They give skills to themes applied to them. That's a very different approach to class design that allows quite a large area of grey in what 'role' something has in a game with no holy trinity. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its not really that different. Its pretty much arguing semantics. Enabling something that was previously not that possible or prevalent on a spec is no less different than saying this spec is supposed to be played as X/Y/Z. Players can, and will, play the spec how the current meta and game design allows in a fashion for some form of being acceptable / "viable" but this doesn't detract from the specific goals of the specs design. Neither should the possible multiple role scopes of the specs. Just because there is a lot of grey doesn't mean that one of the assigned roles, by design, of something isn't there. I.e scourge by design is supposed to fit into a support role as one of its scopes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Things are grey but I don't think they are as grey as you think they are. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's no arguing semantics at all. The decision for Anet to throw away holy trinity gives them the freedom to give classes skills based on theme instead of roles. That's why the class system in this game is so varied and we can play how we want and succeed. > > > > > > > > > > > > Just because there is no trinity doesn't mean specs are not designed with a specific set of roles/ niches in mind. Also saying "this is the theme of the spec, no roles". Themes in themselves are scopes for roles. Theme = (possible role n, possible role n+1 ...).You can literally look at the design of any spec that has been added, the accompanying trailer or mention by Anet, and see things clearly have a certain set of roles in mind when designed. > > > > > > > > > > > OK, I mean, we can disagree about how the game design impacts class skills ... but there is no debate that Necro is going to compete in the meta for a DPS spot because of some artificial role labeling players impose on the class, which is the whole root of our discussion in the first place ... You think labeling necro 'DPS SPEC' requires that they have equivalent DPS to other class DPS specs ... it's just not that simple or even real in this game. Anet even hints at how other non-DPS factors influence the whole performance of the class. That doesn't become irrelevant because players have active imaginations of how they think the game should work. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Im not labeling necro a DPS spec but reaper. Very different things. DPS isn't the only thing it does hence the considering the package as a whole. > > > > > > > > We've seen this in the past where reaper now is far less tanky and Condi focused than its previous iterations but it does *FAR* more power damage. > > > > > > Right ... you say DPS isn't the only thing it does hence the considering the package as a whole. ... but your trying to tell me it's a DPS spec that should have similar DPS output to other DPS specs because DPS spec. I mean, I can't think of a more conflicting, contrived argument. labeling things whatever you want as selectively as you want doesn't justify equivalent DPS between classes. > > > > > > You reference game changes that exactly demonstrate what I'm saying ... the changes Anet makes aren't to balance DPS over classes. It's theme based. If you guys are right and Anet wanted to make Reaper and other classes DPS equivalent ... why didn't they do it when they made the changes you are talking about? Why would they go through the effort of taking a tanky, condi focused spec and making it power damage without balancing it's DPS for meta? > > > > At no point have I said it need comparative DPS...I had a long reply..but then I thought it best not to continue this further. Its absolutely fruitless. > > For real? Um ok ... > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"Funky.4861" said: > > > > Well, having read three pages of 'discussion' i thought i'd add my tuppence :) > > > > > > > > Correct me if i'm wrong, but the OP sees a massive difference in dps between classes for pve instanced content and assumes that the desirability of a class depends on what they bring to the table in terms of a combination of dps, healing, and party-wide buffs (like banners or assassins' presence). Noting that necro is at the bottom of the dps charts, the solution appears to be to buff dps to increase desirability, because necro cannot compete with say SB/Temp/firebrigade regarding group utility. > > > > > > > > If necro dps is buffed, it has to compete with other dps classes (noting that some benchmarks depend on the class having buffs and/or the target having conditions, eg: power chrono relies on high slow uptime). > > > > > > > > Would it perhaps be beneficial to buff necro in other ways, for example manifest sand shade grants quickness, or entering reaper shroud gives alacrity, exiting death shroud heals and rips/converts a boon? I love my necro, but being told by my raid static that i did good on it because of epi timings feels kinda bad. > > > > > > Yes, I would be beneficial to buff necro in this way because anyone that understands meta and who is reasonable understands that Necro isn't going to get a 15-20% flat DPS increase to compete with established DPS meta classes to being with. > > > > This depends on what the designed role of the spec is supposed to be. **If its supposed to be a DPS spec then its performance, with absolutely everything considered, should be around the same total power level as others who are designed to be in the same role**. > > > > It also has to remain within the scope and thematic of the class or direction Anet want to take it via and elite spec. > > So you didn't mean this when you said it? I mean, either you are labeling and making that comparison ... or you aren't. Maybe I'm interpreting this wrong but to me that says: > > **All DPS specs (whatever those are) should have the same power, even when considering other factors** Then you've been reading my argument wrong the whole time which is why I'm not bothering anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted June 5, 2020 Share Posted June 5, 2020 My question here is simple ... if all 'DPS specs' (not Anet's labeling by the way) should be equal in power considering ALL factors, how do you know Anet isn't doing that because of the existence of a DPS gap? How can you only look at DPS and claim necro isn't equal in power to other DPS spec when considering all factors? That's not possible to do. You have literally ignored EVERY other factor that isn't DPS to make that claim. Like .. what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted June 5, 2020 Share Posted June 5, 2020 > @"Obtena.7952" said: >How can you only look at DPS and claim necro isn't equal in power to other DPS spec when considering all factors? Because, as many people were clearly saying in this very thread, we _are_ considering other factors. And after considering all factors, i can say that lower DPS of Reapers is _not_ balanced by giving them anything that would be of value in the same types of content where that dps is important. And that a few things that are thought to balance that dps loss (like the shroud), even if we considered them to be worth the loss (they aren't), are in fact not that, because there are already _other_ factors that balance them well enough. But you should already know that. It was mentioned here many times over already. It's just something you keep ignoring, because it does not fit your arguments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted June 5, 2020 Share Posted June 5, 2020 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > >How can you only look at DPS and claim necro isn't equal in power to other DPS spec when considering all factors? > Because, as many people were clearly saying in this very thread, we _are_ considering other factors. No you aren't because you don't know what factors are used and how they are used by Anet to make these balancing decisions. You have an opinion on what you think they should be and how they should be considered. ... but that's not relevant to what is actually happening ... or if it is, you would never know it. No one here know's Anet's process ... it's a black box. The only thing we know is what we see from how the how the game works and what Anet tells us. Do not pretend that somehow you figured out the mechanics of the black box because you can measure DPS benchmarks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy.6029 Posted June 5, 2020 Share Posted June 5, 2020 > @"Shaogin.2679" said: > https://snowcrows.com/benchmarks/ > > Why are Necromancers still getting the shaft when it comes to PvE content after all this time? Our benchmarks are down there with Banner Warriors. A support build has higher benchmarks than a Necromancer, and we're the only class in this situation. It's been going on long enough that there is no way the Devs are oblivious to this. Poor Necromancers are so used to this treatment that they have just given up and consider it the norm (or at least it seems that way since no one seems to ever push the issue). It is not like our dps is low because we provide amazing group utility. The only reason I can begin to fathom is that the Devs think that kitten dps is a decent trade-off for a bit more sustain. If this was the case though, why not design Necromancers in a way that gave us the option to choose either more damage or more sustain. That is how other classes work. And honestly, I have a much easier time mitigating damage on a Holosmith than I do on Reaper, and Holosmith damage rocks. Say what you will, troll all you want, but this is just sad and ridiculous. I can answer this question in a few words. Hyperboles, a large percentage of low skilled player base and poorly thought out balancing. However, this is not exclusive to the necromancer. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryou.2398 Posted June 5, 2020 Share Posted June 5, 2020 > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > It wouldn't ... and I never said I was against Necro getting DPS either ... that's something you decide to keep throwing in my face. > > > > I'm against the idea that Necro gets DPS just because people don't make good choices in who they team with. > > You're probably aware that in a casual game like GW2 it's harder to find players that have the same mindset than you have than anything. It's even more the case when you have to find 9 such players for a raid team. > > Often, people have a limited time to play (Because "Life") and thus look for the less straining way to enjoy the game. This lead them to simply not care about the mindset of their teammates and base their requirements on the cold objective truth of the numbers that are conveniently given through benchmarks realised by overachievers. And fact is that those numbers don't show any attractive side to the necromancer. > > Worse than that, there is also the factor of "reputation" often bleeding from the PvP side and it's "slightly" warped perception of things, depicting the necromancer as the "noob" profession leading the average player to question whether or not it's a good idea to jeopardize it's playtime in a group that use a "noob" profession known to be "less" than the other professions in the content they target. > > The average player want experienced players on the most effective known professions to team with them. The average player don't want to struggle, he just want to have fun. The average player want to be able to enter an effective team quickly and have a smooth sailing journey to it's "reward". The average player also have a lot of pride and thus is most likely to point out the shortcoming of other than it's own. A nice package and good advertisments often end up with better sales than an ugly one and unfortunately the necromancer's package is ugly and advertisment about the necromancer is less than savory, the "noob/easy" profession with below average performance isn't quite likely to fit the buying requirement of the average player. > > There is two essential things to do to make the necromancer more attractive: > - Make it's numbers more relevant to the content: Per se, the current design of the necromancer don't need buff to it's numbers, it need those numbers to have an equal impact to the impact of the numbers of it's peers. (Which is a thing that ANet never managed to achieve) > - Change it's image: This is purely a player work there. We want the average Joe to stop calling the kettle black and look at the necromancer like a noob easy profession. We want people to lower a bit their pride in their "main". (Which is something that can't happen when numbers aren't up to par) Oh he is very aware of this as it happens in every mmo, its a bad answer/excuse in general. The simple matter here is we need better balance choices yet classes are constantly neglected, I often wonder why it took them this long to realize that they wanted to do trade offs with elite specs yet people where suggesting this since hot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryou.2398 Posted June 5, 2020 Share Posted June 5, 2020 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > @"Funky.4861" said: > > > > > > Well, having read three pages of 'discussion' i thought i'd add my tuppence :) > > > > > > > > > > > > Correct me if i'm wrong, but the OP sees a massive difference in dps between classes for pve instanced content and assumes that the desirability of a class depends on what they bring to the table in terms of a combination of dps, healing, and party-wide buffs (like banners or assassins' presence). Noting that necro is at the bottom of the dps charts, the solution appears to be to buff dps to increase desirability, because necro cannot compete with say SB/Temp/firebrigade regarding group utility. > > > > > > > > > > > > If necro dps is buffed, it has to compete with other dps classes (noting that some benchmarks depend on the class having buffs and/or the target having conditions, eg: power chrono relies on high slow uptime). > > > > > > > > > > > > Would it perhaps be beneficial to buff necro in other ways, for example manifest sand shade grants quickness, or entering reaper shroud gives alacrity, exiting death shroud heals and rips/converts a boon? I love my necro, but being told by my raid static that i did good on it because of epi timings feels kinda bad. > > > > > > > > > > Yes, I would be beneficial to buff necro in this way because anyone that understands meta and who is reasonable understands that Necro isn't going to get a 15-20% flat DPS increase to compete with established DPS meta classes to being with. > > > > > > > > This depends on what the designed role of the spec is supposed to be. If its supposed to be a DPS spec then its performance, with absolutely everything considered, should be around the same total power level as others who are designed to be in the same role. > > > > > > > > It also has to remain within the scope and thematic of the class or direction Anet want to take it via and elite spec. > > > > > > Except when have you known Anet to assign roles to specs? That approach doesn't work in this game. It's not how content is designed. > > > > Each spec has a design goal on mind? That's very clear to see. > > That doesn't answer my question. Anet doesn't assign roles to specs. They give skills to themes applied to them. That's a very different approach to class design that allows quite a large area of grey in what 'role' something has in a game with no holy trinity. > > Besides, there aren't any black or white DPS specs in that case, so even though in theory it sounds nice with absolutely everything considered, we should be around the same total power level as others who are designed to be in the same role ... in practical terms, we don't have that differentiation in roles. That's way too simple a model if you look at the complexity of how especs are assigned skills based on their theme. > > Sure, at the simplest level, it's fair that one DPS class does the same performance as another, but there are a few things going on that adjust performance in this game: > 1. The theme affects the skills of a class, not a pre-determined role > 2. Other skills/features of a class affect performance and no one but Anet knows how they do that. > > These things are obviously affecting the overall performance of a spec. Sorry thats a load of nonsense did not assign roles? Druid as a healer? Come on now they may not have officially said it but that does not mean they did not basically design it that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted June 5, 2020 Share Posted June 5, 2020 > @"Ryou.2398" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > @"Funky.4861" said: > > > > > > > Well, having read three pages of 'discussion' i thought i'd add my tuppence :) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Correct me if i'm wrong, but the OP sees a massive difference in dps between classes for pve instanced content and assumes that the desirability of a class depends on what they bring to the table in terms of a combination of dps, healing, and party-wide buffs (like banners or assassins' presence). Noting that necro is at the bottom of the dps charts, the solution appears to be to buff dps to increase desirability, because necro cannot compete with say SB/Temp/firebrigade regarding group utility. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If necro dps is buffed, it has to compete with other dps classes (noting that some benchmarks depend on the class having buffs and/or the target having conditions, eg: power chrono relies on high slow uptime). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Would it perhaps be beneficial to buff necro in other ways, for example manifest sand shade grants quickness, or entering reaper shroud gives alacrity, exiting death shroud heals and rips/converts a boon? I love my necro, but being told by my raid static that i did good on it because of epi timings feels kinda bad. > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, I would be beneficial to buff necro in this way because anyone that understands meta and who is reasonable understands that Necro isn't going to get a 15-20% flat DPS increase to compete with established DPS meta classes to being with. > > > > > > > > > > This depends on what the designed role of the spec is supposed to be. If its supposed to be a DPS spec then its performance, with absolutely everything considered, should be around the same total power level as others who are designed to be in the same role. > > > > > > > > > > It also has to remain within the scope and thematic of the class or direction Anet want to take it via and elite spec. > > > > > > > > Except when have you known Anet to assign roles to specs? That approach doesn't work in this game. It's not how content is designed. > > > > > > Each spec has a design goal on mind? That's very clear to see. > > > > That doesn't answer my question. Anet doesn't assign roles to specs. They give skills to themes applied to them. That's a very different approach to class design that allows quite a large area of grey in what 'role' something has in a game with no holy trinity. > > > > Besides, there aren't any black or white DPS specs in that case, so even though in theory it sounds nice with absolutely everything considered, we should be around the same total power level as others who are designed to be in the same role ... in practical terms, we don't have that differentiation in roles. That's way too simple a model if you look at the complexity of how especs are assigned skills based on their theme. > > > > Sure, at the simplest level, it's fair that one DPS class does the same performance as another, but there are a few things going on that adjust performance in this game: > > 1. The theme affects the skills of a class, not a pre-determined role > > 2. Other skills/features of a class affect performance and no one but Anet knows how they do that. > > > > These things are obviously affecting the overall performance of a spec. > > Sorry thats a load of nonsense did not assign roles? Druid as a healer? Come on now they may not have officially said it but that does not mean they did not basically design it that way. You do not know how Anet arrived at the decision to give Druid healing skills ... or anything other decision they have made regarding class balance ... unless they told us. The only thing we know is that we have it. You can't just decide you know how the black box works because you can think of a way to get a result from it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryou.2398 Posted June 6, 2020 Share Posted June 6, 2020 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Ryou.2398" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > @"Funky.4861" said: > > > > > > > > Well, having read three pages of 'discussion' i thought i'd add my tuppence :) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Correct me if i'm wrong, but the OP sees a massive difference in dps between classes for pve instanced content and assumes that the desirability of a class depends on what they bring to the table in terms of a combination of dps, healing, and party-wide buffs (like banners or assassins' presence). Noting that necro is at the bottom of the dps charts, the solution appears to be to buff dps to increase desirability, because necro cannot compete with say SB/Temp/firebrigade regarding group utility. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If necro dps is buffed, it has to compete with other dps classes (noting that some benchmarks depend on the class having buffs and/or the target having conditions, eg: power chrono relies on high slow uptime). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Would it perhaps be beneficial to buff necro in other ways, for example manifest sand shade grants quickness, or entering reaper shroud gives alacrity, exiting death shroud heals and rips/converts a boon? I love my necro, but being told by my raid static that i did good on it because of epi timings feels kinda bad. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, I would be beneficial to buff necro in this way because anyone that understands meta and who is reasonable understands that Necro isn't going to get a 15-20% flat DPS increase to compete with established DPS meta classes to being with. > > > > > > > > > > > > This depends on what the designed role of the spec is supposed to be. If its supposed to be a DPS spec then its performance, with absolutely everything considered, should be around the same total power level as others who are designed to be in the same role. > > > > > > > > > > > > It also has to remain within the scope and thematic of the class or direction Anet want to take it via and elite spec. > > > > > > > > > > Except when have you known Anet to assign roles to specs? That approach doesn't work in this game. It's not how content is designed. > > > > > > > > Each spec has a design goal on mind? That's very clear to see. > > > > > > That doesn't answer my question. Anet doesn't assign roles to specs. They give skills to themes applied to them. That's a very different approach to class design that allows quite a large area of grey in what 'role' something has in a game with no holy trinity. > > > > > > Besides, there aren't any black or white DPS specs in that case, so even though in theory it sounds nice with absolutely everything considered, we should be around the same total power level as others who are designed to be in the same role ... in practical terms, we don't have that differentiation in roles. That's way too simple a model if you look at the complexity of how especs are assigned skills based on their theme. > > > > > > Sure, at the simplest level, it's fair that one DPS class does the same performance as another, but there are a few things going on that adjust performance in this game: > > > 1. The theme affects the skills of a class, not a pre-determined role > > > 2. Other skills/features of a class affect performance and no one but Anet knows how they do that. > > > > > > These things are obviously affecting the overall performance of a spec. > > > > Sorry thats a load of nonsense did not assign roles? Druid as a healer? Come on now they may not have officially said it but that does not mean they did not basically design it that way. > > You do not know how Anet arrived at the decision to give Druid healing skills ... or anything other decision they have made regarding class balance ... unless they told us. The only thing we know is that we have it. You can't just decide you know how the black box works because you can think of a way to get a result from it. It is very clear this is not a good answer, you always make the claim if anet did not say it, no matter how obvious it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadnir.5038 Posted June 6, 2020 Share Posted June 6, 2020 > @"Ryou.2398" said: > Oh he is very aware of this as it happens in every mmo, its a bad answer/excuse in general. The simple matter here is we need better balance choices yet classes are constantly neglected, I often wonder why it took them this long to realize that they wanted to do trade offs with elite specs yet people where suggesting this since hot. Obtena is this person to which you say: "My house display some concerning amount of radioactivity due to the materials used in the construction. It bother both me and my neighbours." And he answer: "Then buy a new house or put it on a truck and find neighbours that don't mind the radioactivity. The one that built the house obviously know that the radioactivity is a bit to high but maybe he got data that it's not to a dangerous level, else he might already have done something about it." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrHome.1920 Posted June 6, 2020 Share Posted June 6, 2020 > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > Obtena is this person to which you say: "My house display some concerning amount of radioactivity due to the materials used in the construction. It bother both me and my neighbours." > And he answer: "Then buy a new house or put it on a truck and find neighbours that don't mind the radioactivity. The one that built the house obviously know that the radioactivity is a bit to high but maybe he got data that it's not to a dangerous level, else he might already have done something about it." You might accidently prove his/her point. Not every level of radioactivity is harmful. So the builder might be correct. Topic: Necromancer is an outlier in class design for PvE endgame content. That's where the problem is located. If 8 out of 9 classes fit into the meta and one doesn't, than there is a problem - no matter what kind of vision ANet had in mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted June 6, 2020 Share Posted June 6, 2020 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > >How can you only look at DPS and claim necro isn't equal in power to other DPS spec when considering all factors? > > Because, as many people were clearly saying in this very thread, we _are_ considering other factors. > > No you aren't because you don't know what factors are used and how they are used by Anet to make these balancing decisions. Yes, we don't know what factors _Anet_ is considering and how they're weighting them (although we know some, because Anet, even in silent mode, _is_ saying things from time to time, and so some info does trickle to us, and the things we've heard so far about necro balancing do not sound very good). This does not mean we can't see factors and judge them for ourselves. We have our own brains, you know, and we don't need others to tell us things before we will be able to see them. And in fact one of the arguments used, if you haven't noticed, _is_ about how Anet is using the exatly _wrong_ factors to balance Necro (and we _do_ know they were using them, because they _told_ us so, so we don;t even need to guess). >You have an opinion on what you think they should be and how they should be considered. ... but that's not relevant to what is actually happening ... or if it is, you would never know it. I have my own mind, thank you very much. I don't need Anet to hold my hand and tell me things for me to be able to see and understand anything. And no, i do not believe in Anet being unfallible, because thay have made mistakes in the past, even major ones (some of them they even admitted to making). And your way of thinking _requires_ a belief in Anet always being unfallible. > No one here know's Anet's process ... it's a black box. The only thing we know is what we see from how the how the game works and what Anet tells us. Do not pretend that somehow you figured out the mechanics of the black box because you can measure DPS benchmarks. And yet i saw you arguing very hard against Anet's balancing decision in a certain thread about Berserker, so obviously what you preach here is not what you believe in. In short, i am sorry, but an argument of "you don't know why Anet made a certain decision, so you can't argue about it being wrong, even if you _see_ it being wrong" is a pile of kittens. And a pile of kittens may be a good distraction, but makes for a very, very poor serious argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XECOR.2814 Posted June 6, 2020 Share Posted June 6, 2020 > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > @"Ryou.2398" said: > > Oh he is very aware of this as it happens in every mmo, its a bad answer/excuse in general. The simple matter here is we need better balance choices yet classes are constantly neglected, I often wonder why it took them this long to realize that they wanted to do trade offs with elite specs yet people where suggesting this since hot. > > Obtena is this person to which you say: "My house display some concerning amount of radioactivity due to the materials used in the construction. It bother both me and my neighbours." > And he answer: "Then buy a new house or put it on a truck and find neighbours that don't mind the radioactivity. The one that built the house obviously know that the radioactivity is a bit to high but maybe he got data that it's not to a dangerous level, else he might already have done something about it." That person is all over necro section doing this for as long as i can remember. Dont feed him replies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted June 6, 2020 Share Posted June 6, 2020 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > >How can you only look at DPS and claim necro isn't equal in power to other DPS spec when considering all factors? > > > Because, as many people were clearly saying in this very thread, we _are_ considering other factors. > > > > No you aren't because you don't know what factors are used and how they are used by Anet to make these balancing decisions. > Yes, we don't know what factors _Anet_ is considering and how they're weighting them (although we know some, because Anet, even in silent mode, _is_ saying things from time to time, and so some info does trickle to us, and the things we've heard so far about necro balancing do not sound very good) This does not mean we can't see factors and judge them for ourselves.. Right ... and based on what you can see, it's not enough to claim that it's not balanced. Anet's formula for how things are balanced is unknown. Basically you are saying everything people are presenting to claim unbalanced is conjecture. The perspective you take to complain CAN'T be from the Anet design side, because you don't know what that is. > @"KrHome.1920" said: > > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > Obtena is this person to which you say: "My house display some concerning amount of radioactivity due to the materials used in the construction. It bother both me and my neighbours." > > And he answer: "Then buy a new house or put it on a truck and find neighbours that don't mind the radioactivity. The one that built the house obviously know that the radioactivity is a bit to high but maybe he got data that it's not to a dangerous level, else he might already have done something about it." > You might accidently prove his/her point. Not every level of radioactivity is harmful. So the builder might be correct. > > Topic: > Necromancer is an outlier in class design for PvE endgame content. That's where the problem is located. If 8 out of 9 classes fit into the meta and one doesn't, than there is a problem - no matter what kind of vision ANet had in mind. > Even if you believe not meta is a problem, DPS CAN'T be the answer to fixing 1. No reasonable player is going to believe that Anet will drop 20% more DPS on a spec just so people can get PUG's. 2. Getting more DPS will not guarantee meta spot because DPS is abundant ... no one is missing that in their teams. Here is the problem ... we have to separate this 'not meta' and 'not enough DPS' complaint ... even though people think they are related, they are not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted June 6, 2020 Share Posted June 6, 2020 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > Even if you believe not meta is a problem, DPS CAN'T be the answer to fixing The only other answer would be a complete overhaul of Necro, which is _far less_ likely to happen than DPS adjustments. The only thing that could really be worth that massive dps loss for power reaper would be it getting some really massive support options on top of that dps. Condi scourge would have to be balanced against firebrand, so it would need to get significant boosts to _both_ dps _and_ support options to be on equal footing. Considering the narrow range of support Necro has (and that support is completely absent in Reaper's toolkit), doing either would require really significant changes to the class as a whole. Expecting that is far less reasonable than Anet looking just at Necro dps. > 1. No reasonable player is going to believe that Anet will drop 20% more DPS on a spec just so people can get PUG's. First, not just "so people can't get pugs", but because _a major class imbalance exists_. Second, yes, i think asking for fixing a major class imbalance is reasonable. Third, me expecting Anet to fix this or not has nothing to do with it - a problem exists, so it _is_ reasonable for people ask for that problem to be fixed. Even if they don't have much hope of Anet doing this, calling devs on _not doing their job_ is definitely reasonable. > 2. Getting more DPS will not guarantee meta spot because DPS is abundant ... no one is missing that in their teams. Like i said, it's not about some people getting spot in parties. It's about having a consistent and reasonable PvE balance. Necros are just a biggest highlight of the balance mess we have so far. You may be one of the people that think that PvE balance is unimportant. I'm not. In fact, i think that it is absolutely necessary in order to achieve the goal you claim is Anet's - players having ability to choose what they want to play with. I mean, yes, you can now indeed choose to play Necro in more demanding instanced content, but by doing that you are intentionally crippling yourself and your group, lowering the overall chance of success. By running a weaker class, you are putting more pressure on other group members. Sure, they may be okay with it, and you may even success even with that handicap, but it's still a kitten move. If classes were balanced properly, however, it would be perfectly fine to choose a different one simply because you like playing it more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrHome.1920 Posted June 6, 2020 Share Posted June 6, 2020 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > Even if you believe not meta is a problem, DPS CAN'T be the answer to fixing > > 1. No reasonable player is going to believe that Anet will drop 20% more DPS on a spec just so people can get PUG's. > 2. Getting more DPS will not guarantee meta spot because DPS is abundant ... no one is missing that in their teams. > > Here is the problem ... we have to separate this 'not meta' and 'not enough DPS' complaint ... even though people think they are related, they are not. The game promotes a certain way to deal with endgame content and the necro mechanic isn't part of it. Of course the dev can always say "don't play what our game promotes, just have fun with your necro, you can still do fine, even non-optimal (= non-promoted) setups can be successful". Nevertheless that's the ultimate showcase of ignorance, because it isn't possible to have fun in a content that also promotes teaming up with players that follow the promotion based on the design the dev gave them. Side Notes: - You should not give the community a training area or allow external tools to check their DPS, when these do not reflect actual requirements. - You should not design a class to be 100% selfishy (perma self quickness, 25 self might, superior self sustain) if a key element of your endgame balancing in terms of viability is the ability to trade this for superior team utility on one or another way. - That said: healing scourge is great but unfortunately niche. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted June 6, 2020 Share Posted June 6, 2020 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > Even if you believe not meta is a problem, DPS CAN'T be the answer to fixing > The only other answer would be a complete overhaul of Necro, which is _far less_ likely to happen than DPS adjustments. Really? So you think it's less likely that Anet does something like (check my sig) that they have done for numerous classes than give any necro spec a flat 20% DPS increase? Because if you want to get teams with Necro based on DPS so it's meta, 5, 10, even 15% increase isn't going to do it. That's an interesting position you have, considering we know Anet is willing to make sweeping changes on multiple occasions to classes to fit themes they want them to have and we have no examples of ANet boosting a spec's damage to the levels we would need to see here to make something meta :astonished: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryou.2398 Posted June 6, 2020 Share Posted June 6, 2020 > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > @"Ryou.2398" said: > > Oh he is very aware of this as it happens in every mmo, its a bad answer/excuse in general. The simple matter here is we need better balance choices yet classes are constantly neglected, I often wonder why it took them this long to realize that they wanted to do trade offs with elite specs yet people where suggesting this since hot. > > Obtena is this person to which you say: "My house display some concerning amount of radioactivity due to the materials used in the construction. It bother both me and my neighbours." > And he answer: "Then buy a new house or put it on a truck and find neighbours that don't mind the radioactivity. The one that built the house obviously know that the radioactivity is a bit to high but maybe he got data that it's not to a dangerous level, else he might already have done something about it." Indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryou.2398 Posted June 6, 2020 Share Posted June 6, 2020 > @"XECOR.2814" said: > > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > > @"Ryou.2398" said: > > > Oh he is very aware of this as it happens in every mmo, its a bad answer/excuse in general. The simple matter here is we need better balance choices yet classes are constantly neglected, I often wonder why it took them this long to realize that they wanted to do trade offs with elite specs yet people where suggesting this since hot. > > > > Obtena is this person to which you say: "My house display some concerning amount of radioactivity due to the materials used in the construction. It bother both me and my neighbours." > > And he answer: "Then buy a new house or put it on a truck and find neighbours that don't mind the radioactivity. The one that built the house obviously know that the radioactivity is a bit to high but maybe he got data that it's not to a dangerous level, else he might already have done something about it." > > That person is all over necro section doing this for as long as i can remember. Dont feed him replies. Oh not just necros nearly every class or even general forums basically any post that has any criticism at all really, seems like it is finally catching up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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