Can PvE not have retal? (p2)

[Noodle Ant.1605]

[Part 1](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/92833/can-pve-not-have-retal)

 

So far, Anet did a good job of avoiding this in ls5e2 (shadow in the ice) and again in ls5e3 (visions of the past). But only after 2 episode releases, it’s back again.

 

No, I’m not talking about the new strike - that’s an intended mechanic in instanced content (also has an icd). No, what I’m talking about is Toss Elixir B which every engi enemy can use on the new map (also some of the champs during cache train).

 

This time, it’s rng (25% chance), can be applied to 4 other mobs, lasts for 10s seconds and hits for ~450 per tick, higher if upscaled/higher rank (very common). Again, this can be easily translated into 10s of ‘don’t hit me or die’, which discriminately applies to some classes/builds more than others (tempest being the prime example) and sometimes, cheap instant death for anyone who puts down dmging fields *prior to its application*. The mobs actually have range capability this time, so simply kiting until it falls off (10s again) is a no-go.

 

As I said before, *the boon* allows passive play from the AI while they continue to harass you with their active play. It’s basically 25% random chance of instant defeat if playing certain classes/builds and unjustified punishment for those who play them. Given how **disproportionately it functions from PvP, and furthermore across different classes,** retal isn’t a boon that can be slapped on *any* PvE mob **without a corresponding mechanic,** period. Or, the duration and the damage output of retal should be completely axed for PvE enemies; or worse - never appear at all, so that this doesn’t happen again.

[AliamRationem.5172]

Yeah, they really need to put a 1s cooldown on retaliation procs in PvE only. I love the combat on these new maps, but as a sword weaver it feels really terrible to have this sudden area effect retaliation applied. Not only do we have no access to boon strip, but we have multiple pulsing area effects and dual attacks, with our biggest damage moves striking multiple targets 5-8 times!

 

How much damage am I taking if an engi throws down retaliation as I burst a group? Just dropping pyrovortex after a pull will strike up to 24 times! That's realistically 12k+ damage from retaliation just for dropping one move! And if you have primordial stance on top of that and there are 5 targets? Tack on another 2500 DPS from retaliation!

 

I know we have all the control here and can simply back off, but I feel this amount of spike damage is not really intended. Also, where it makes sense in a PvP scenario, it really doesn't in a place where you are one player against hundreds of enemies.

 

Seriously, can we think about maybe applying a 1s cooldown to this boon in PvE? At least for the NPCs. Players having strong retaliation is totally fine with me in any game mode.

[aspirine.6852]

There are some where it ticks for 850 per tick. Imagine my surprise hitting that :open_mouth:

[Kodama.6453]

I think this is fine. Why shouldn't PvE enemies use all the mechanics available in the game?

Strong AoE damage is strong in so many PvE environments, having some enemies which can punish this doesn't sound so bad for me.

[Khisanth.2948]

I haven't actually noticed much from retal.

 

On the other hand 3k+ per Detonate Turret from multiple simultaneous detonations with no tell ... actually these aren't "noticeable" either. Had to trawl through the combat log. Damage spikes like that with no obvious source is probably worse.

 

The main problem with retal in PvE is that it uses a damage formula tuned for much slower attacking mobs.

 

We'll probably have to accept that ANet is just not very good at designing encounters and leave it at that. There has been no change since release, it is crazy to start expecting improvements. It's shame that a great combat system has to be shackled to mediocre enemies.

[Taril.8619]

> @"Kodama.6453" said:

> I think this is fine. Why shouldn't PvE enemies use all the mechanics available in the game?

 

I think the main issue it how outside of specifically group content, it causes an unfair situation in regards to class performance.

 

Not every class has boon strip available to let them take off dangerous boons like Retal from enemies. Some of those classes that don't have boon strip are also more susceptible to Retal (Ele has lots of multi-hit attacks for example)

 

PvE enemies using mechanics that all classes can deal with is fine. I.e. Defiance Bars.

 

But using mechanics that only some classes can deal with should be saved for group content, so that if someone is playing a class that can't deal with that mechanic, they can be grouped with someone who can.

 

This is a situation that reminds me of when enemies punished the other types of builds, the slow heavy hitters. Back in LW3 with the White Mantle fighting against Clerics and Mesmers and all your attacks are BLOCK MISS BLOCK MISS BLOCK MISS BLOCK MISS as the Clerics spammed their AoE Aegis and the Mesmers spammed their blinds... Gosh that was fun /s

[Kodama.6453]

> @"Taril.8619" said:

> > @"Kodama.6453" said:

> > I think this is fine. Why shouldn't PvE enemies use all the mechanics available in the game?

>

> I think the main issue it how outside of specifically group content, it causes an unfair situation in regards to class performance.

>

> Not every class has boon strip available to let them take off dangerous boons like Retal from enemies. Some of those classes that don't have boon strip are also more susceptible to Retal (Ele has lots of multi-hit attacks for example)

>

> PvE enemies using mechanics that all classes can deal with is fine. I.e. Defiance Bars.

>

> But using mechanics that only some classes can deal with should be saved for group content, so that if someone is playing a class that can't deal with that mechanic, they can be grouped with someone who can.

>

> This is a situation that reminds me of when enemies punished the other types of builds, the slow heavy hitters. Back in LW3 with the White Mantle fighting against Clerics and Mesmers and all your attacks are BLOCK MISS BLOCK MISS BLOCK MISS BLOCK MISS as the Clerics spammed their AoE Aegis and the Mesmers spammed their blinds... Gosh that was fun /s

 

I am part of that subgroup.

My main is an engineer, a class with alot of AoE and multi hit abilities. And the only boon strip available for me is Throw Mine and it's toolbelt skill, which are both pretty underused. Didn't run Throw Mine on that map at all.

 

And I still thought this is fine. Yeah, it can make some of the encounters harder and feel more punishing. But I don't have any problem with that. Even without boon strip at my hand, I can still deal with them. From time to time, I get overwhelmed by a small army that is appearing out of nowhere on top of me, but that happens rarely and I can make my way through that map pretty well.

 

[Rezzet.3614]

retaliation as a whole is annoying i say give it 0.25s ICD , that way it has potential to do a lot of damage if you're reckless but wont insta melt you if you drop some pulsing aoe on a group with retaliation, heck do it for wvw too :v