Banners as F skills, not utility or Elite

[Aveigel.2601]

One of the things that's missing for Warrior right now is some extra F skills.

 

Other classes have extra options for utility/damage/heal with F skills while warrior does not.

 

Banners are always fun to have, for a group, but never fun to have for the actual warrior as they take up utility slots that represent more options for either utility/damage/heal.

 

To have something more in line with other classes, I'd like to see exactly that, Banners as F skills. 2 F skills (F3 and F4) for normal banners which you could select from same as with other utility skills, and even Battle Standard as an F5 skill.

 

I don't think I need to explain much, for people to see this would be an obvious boon to the play quality of warrior.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

I'd be game but I don't think Anet will do it at this point. It would be too drastic of a change for core warrior.

[cryorion.9532]

Bringing bannerslave to the next level, I see.

I would prefer physical skills to be as F skills instead and you could choose one to have it available as F2. I doubt this will happen. Then warrior would have one type of utility skills less to choose from = new skills would have to be made = a lot of work to figure out balance, etc. There is little reason to spend resources on such big changes instead of new elite spec or just overall balance of existing stuff.

 

I agree that warrior lacks utility compared to other professions (that's why warrior is so simple, there isn't much to choose from except what is already used regularly).

A new elite spec could focus on adding more utility. Let's just hope Anet won't overdo it in firebrand style.

[Lighter.5631]

anything that adds button or make warrior less banner slave is not happening

[Sobx.1758]

> @"Lighter.5631" said:

> anything that adds button or make warrior less banner slave is not happening

 

Adding banners to every build doesn't "make warrior less banner slave", all it does is buff banner slave (or makes every build a "banner slave" build, because apparently if you have banners equipped you're a bs regardless of anything else).

[Lighter.5631]

> @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > @"Lighter.5631" said:

> > anything that adds button or make warrior less banner slave is not happening

>

> Adding banners to every build doesn't "make warrior less banner slave", all it does is buff banner slave (or makes every build a "banner slave" build, because apparently if you have banners equipped you're a bs regardless of anything else).

 

you arent really getting it, If banner becomes a class mechanics, will it still be considered slave?

just like no one is calling renegade alacrity slave, because it's built in default.

if warrior gets banner built in default, warrior wouldn't need to force reject other options only be able to take banner thus not banner slave. going pure damage, pure support build, without being forced to take any banner, because its in default. slave means being forced, you are not getting forced on anything if it's built in default with little compromise.

[Aveigel.2601]

yes they could add other type of skills to warrior in new F skills instead of banners, like a some physical, stances or shouts...I kinda like the idea of banners though. Seems more rounded and not game breaking.

[Arcaniaxs.4519]

Thief says hi with only F1 plus garbage F2s

[Lighter.5631]

> @"Arcaniaxs.4519" said:

> Thief says hi with only F1 plus garbage F2s

 

? i think you misunderstand very useful to garbage.

[Kodama.6453]

I don't think this should be a thing.

 

Banners are a supportive mechanic, actually one of the very few choices warrior has to support a group of players.

Baking something into a class mechanic like this means that the class thematically becomes about that aspect. Like necromancers are inherently tanky because of death shroud. Or druids are inherently supportive because of the celestial avatar, which makes sense, since druid is designed to be a support elite spec in the first place.

 

What putting banners into the F-skills does is that warrior becomes naturally supportive. Every warrior build out there would inherently have group support aspects, which seems ... weird, at least for me. Warrior is not a class that I would think should always be group support. They should have the **choice** to support their team, but shouldn't be forced automatically to be so.

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"Kodama.6453" said:

> I don't think this should be a thing.

>

> Banners are a supportive mechanic, actually one of the very few choices warrior has to support a group of players.

> Baking something into a class mechanic like this means that the class thematically becomes about that aspect. Like necromancers are inherently tanky because of death shroud. Or druids are inherently supportive because of the celestial avatar, which makes sense, since druid is designed to be a support elite spec in the first place.

>

> What putting banners into the F-skills does is that warrior becomes naturally supportive. Every warrior build out there would inherently have group support aspects, which seems ... weird, at least for me. Warrior is not a class that I would think should always be group support. They should have the **choice** to support their team, but shouldn't be forced automatically to be so.

 

True, it's better to have a profession mechanism relatively neutral and get the choice to specialize.

[Sobx.1758]

> @"Lighter.5631" said:

> > @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > > @"Lighter.5631" said:

> > > anything that adds button or make warrior less banner slave is not happening

> >

> > Adding banners to every build doesn't "make warrior less banner slave", all it does is buff banner slave (or makes every build a "banner slave" build, because apparently if you have banners equipped you're a bs regardless of anything else).

>

> you arent really getting it, If banner becomes a class mechanics, will it still be considered slave?

> just like no one is calling renegade alacrity slave, because it's built in default.

> if warrior gets banner built in default, warrior wouldn't need to force reject other options only be able to take banner thus not banner slave. going pure damage, pure support build, without being forced to take any banner, because its in default. slave means being forced, you are not getting forced on anything if it's built in default with little compromise.

 

Except alaren is also forced into using certain bulds/stats for alacrity upkeep to be reliable (and due to the nature of the class, its utility choices are pretty limited anyways).

 

And yeah, apparently "I'm not getting it", but that's mostly because not long ago you've tried to tell me that "as long as banners exist, warrior will always be bs". Suddenly it's not a banner slave when the banners are moved to "f" keys, because apparently 2-3k dps on consistently optimal rotation is the difference between being a dps class and "just a banner slave". But it's not, at this point "banner slave" is a meme name for a build that deals dmg and provides group utility in the form of banners while trading 2k dps (LOL) for a squad-wide dps increase.

[Lighter.5631]

> @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > @"Lighter.5631" said:

> > > @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > > > @"Lighter.5631" said:

> > > > anything that adds button or make warrior less banner slave is not happening

> > >

> > > Adding banners to every build doesn't "make warrior less banner slave", all it does is buff banner slave (or makes every build a "banner slave" build, because apparently if you have banners equipped you're a bs regardless of anything else).

> >

> > you arent really getting it, If banner becomes a class mechanics, will it still be considered slave?

> > just like no one is calling renegade alacrity slave, because it's built in default.

> > if warrior gets banner built in default, warrior wouldn't need to force reject other options only be able to take banner thus not banner slave. going pure damage, pure support build, without being forced to take any banner, because its in default. slave means being forced, you are not getting forced on anything if it's built in default with little compromise.

>

> Except alaren is also forced into using certain bulds/stats for alacrity upkeep to be reliable (and due to the nature of the class, its utility choices are pretty limited anyways).

>

> And yeah, apparently "I'm not getting it", but that's mostly because not long ago you've tried to tell me that "as long as banners exist, warrior will always be bs".

 

Obviously, you are still not getting it, if banner become F skill then it's default, it's not slave, every warrior has burst skill, do people call warrior burst slave? necro shroud slave? firebrand tome slave?

and bruh you are really nitpicking in to the sentences..seriously stop. you do realise that sentence only apply to banner being the current state without imaginary alteration with a different context. you are just making a joke out of yourself, karen

[Chaarliee.2307]

> @"Kodama.6453" said:

> I don't think this should be a thing.

>

> Banners are a supportive mechanic, actually one of the very few choices warrior has to support a group of players.

> Baking something into a class mechanic like this means that the class thematically becomes about that aspect. Like necromancers are inherently tanky because of death shroud. Or druids are inherently supportive because of the celestial avatar, which makes sense, since druid is designed to be a support elite spec in the first place.

>

> What putting banners into the F-skills does is that warrior becomes naturally supportive. Every warrior build out there would inherently have group support aspects, which seems ... weird, at least for me. Warrior is not a class that I would think should always be group support. They should have the **choice** to support their team, but shouldn't be forced automatically to be so.

 

I get you point. But you forget that the class in PvE at least, it's already about banners. Like if u don't bring banners to the team u can't join, that happens today.

I agrree with OP here, maybe not banners F skill, but warrior seriously need another F skill.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

What about with the next elite spec we get an F2 that depending on the first tier trait we choose it toggles either defense boons ( protection, Regen, and barrier), offense boons(fury, might, quickness), or debuffs (like weakness, slow, and vulnerability).

 

Takes 1 bar to toggle, then they pulse for 4s on a 8s CD.

[Kodama.6453]

> @"Chaarliee.2307" said:

> > @"Kodama.6453" said:

> > I don't think this should be a thing.

> >

> > Banners are a supportive mechanic, actually one of the very few choices warrior has to support a group of players.

> > Baking something into a class mechanic like this means that the class thematically becomes about that aspect. Like necromancers are inherently tanky because of death shroud. Or druids are inherently supportive because of the celestial avatar, which makes sense, since druid is designed to be a support elite spec in the first place.

> >

> > What putting banners into the F-skills does is that warrior becomes naturally supportive. Every warrior build out there would inherently have group support aspects, which seems ... weird, at least for me. Warrior is not a class that I would think should always be group support. They should have the **choice** to support their team, but shouldn't be forced automatically to be so.

>

> I get you point. But you forget that the class in PvE at least, it's already about banners. Like if u don't bring banners to the team u can't join, that happens today.

> I agrree with OP here, maybe not banners F skill, but warrior seriously need another F skill.

 

That a specific build is a requirement for end content like raids or strike missions is not really a good argument in my eyes.

DPS specs for rangers are required to take spotter to support the group with bonus precision, also spirits are oftenly required from them to boost the group dps with stuff like frost spirit's unique damage modifier.

Do you want that this stuff becomes baseline for every ranger as well?

 

There will always be a optimal build, which will get required from the class at high end content. If you make banners baseline, then other skills will replace them which will ensure the highest possible dps for the entire group. What then, making that stuff baseline as well so it can get replaced again? And then again?

 

Just because something turns out to be the most efficient option in an environment that wants to maximise efficiency does not mean that the class needs to get the stuff as a baseline feature.

[Kodama.6453]

> @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:

> What about with the next elite spec we get an F2 that depending on the first tier trait we choose it toggles either defense boons ( protection, Regen, and barrier), offense boons(fury, might, quickness), or debuffs (like weakness, slow, and vulnerability).

>

> Takes 1 bar to toggle, then they pulse for 4s on a 8s CD.

 

Sounds like a mechanic they can work with.

Next elite spec for warrior (at least in my opinion) should be support focused anyway, since warrior is lacking in a true supportive playstyle.

Having something like you are describing here would be fitting as some kind of support warrior, someone who is commanding their allies to victory.

[artharon.9276]

I'm glad to see being on the same page with many people here. Next elite spec should replace F menus with a soldier pet to carry banners and their skills for us.

I'll elaborate the idea with some makeshift concept arts when I have time. Captain or paragon whatever you call it, a leader type support based elite spec with pet builds fits perfectly.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

> @"artharon.9276" said:

> I'm glad to see being on the same page with many people here. Next elite spec should replace F menus with a soldier pet to carry banners and their skills for us.

> I'll elaborate the idea with some makeshift concept arts when I have time. Captain or paragon whatever you call it, a leader type support based elite spec with pet builds fits perfectly.

 

No, just extra F skills that consume adrenaline that provide buffs.

[Cougre.6543]

What if banners were simply removed and warrior treated as a raw DPS class instead? These skills are even less interactive than most signets, and warrior has both.

[Sobx.1758]

> @"Lighter.5631" said:

> > @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > > @"Lighter.5631" said:

> > > > @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > > > > @"Lighter.5631" said:

> > > > > anything that adds button or make warrior less banner slave is not happening

> > > >

> > > > Adding banners to every build doesn't "make warrior less banner slave", all it does is buff banner slave (or makes every build a "banner slave" build, because apparently if you have banners equipped you're a bs regardless of anything else).

> > >

> > > you arent really getting it, If banner becomes a class mechanics, will it still be considered slave?

> > > just like no one is calling renegade alacrity slave, because it's built in default.

> > > if warrior gets banner built in default, warrior wouldn't need to force reject other options only be able to take banner thus not banner slave. going pure damage, pure support build, without being forced to take any banner, because its in default. slave means being forced, you are not getting forced on anything if it's built in default with little compromise.

> >

> > Except alaren is also forced into using certain bulds/stats for alacrity upkeep to be reliable (and due to the nature of the class, its utility choices are pretty limited anyways).

> >

> > And yeah, apparently "I'm not getting it", but that's mostly because not long ago you've tried to tell me that "as long as banners exist, warrior will always be bs".

>

> Obviously, you are still not getting it, if banner become F skill then it's default, it's not slave, every warrior has burst skill, do people call warrior burst slave? necro shroud slave? firebrand tome slave?

> and bruh you are really nitpicking in to the sentences..seriously stop. you do realise that sentence only apply to banner being the current state without imaginary alteration with a different context. you are just making a joke out of yourself, karen

 

Not nitpicking at anything. As I said, not long ago you were claiming that "as long as banners exist, warrior will always be bs", if you say it would no longer be "just banner slave" because banners would be moved to F keys, freeing utility slots for burst skills, then all you were/are complaining about is just a 2-3k dps change which is a negligible difference at that point.

 

I also already said that it's just a name, how is this relevant that a "slave" word is used there, when people look for alacren, they look for a specific support build as well and arguably those are even more braindead to play with even less dps. The commuty-made meme name is irrelevant. How is asking "is x called a slave" meaningful in the slightest here? Or are you seriously so triggered by the word "slave" that you can't live that down?

 

And bruh, "current state of banner" meaning what? Trading 2k personal dps into overal growth of squad dps? The point here is that you're complaining about nothing and blowing the "banner slave" meme way out of proportions. That's literally a 1 reserved place in squad for warrior with little trade-off of personal dps and playstyle and usually nothing stops more warriors from joining just to fill dps role.

Throwing "karens" for no reason won't change what I said, so feel free to tackle my posts instead of me (by using some overused meme again nonetheless), thanks.

 

 

________

 

Also people would still want banners in their squads and typing "bs" is simply shorter than "war" or whatever you'd want to hear instead. It would still be a banner slave. If the name is really what you're so concerned about, oof.

[Sobx.1758]

> @"Cougre.6543" said:

> What if banners were simply removed and warrior treated as a raw DPS class instead? These skills are even less interactive than most signets, and warrior has both.

 

They could be, but why would you want that? Who would that be a positive change for? Warriors? I don't think so. Anyone else? Also not so much.

[Chaarliee.2307]

> @"Kodama.6453" said:

> > @"Chaarliee.2307" said:

> > > @"Kodama.6453" said:

> > > I don't think this should be a thing.

> > >

> > > Banners are a supportive mechanic, actually one of the very few choices warrior has to support a group of players.

> > > Baking something into a class mechanic like this means that the class thematically becomes about that aspect. Like necromancers are inherently tanky because of death shroud. Or druids are inherently supportive because of the celestial avatar, which makes sense, since druid is designed to be a support elite spec in the first place.

> > >

> > > What putting banners into the F-skills does is that warrior becomes naturally supportive. Every warrior build out there would inherently have group support aspects, which seems ... weird, at least for me. Warrior is not a class that I would think should always be group support. They should have the **choice** to support their team, but shouldn't be forced automatically to be so.

> >

> > I get you point. But you forget that the class in PvE at least, it's already about banners. Like if u don't bring banners to the team u can't join, that happens today.

> > I agrree with OP here, maybe not banners F skill, but warrior seriously need another F skill.

>

> That a specific build is a requirement for end content like raids or strike missions is not really a good argument in my eyes.

> DPS specs for rangers are required to take spotter to support the group with bonus precision, also spirits are oftenly required from them to boost the group dps with stuff like frost spirit's unique damage modifier.

> Do you want that this stuff becomes baseline for every ranger as well?

>

> There will always be a optimal build, which will get required from the class at high end content. If you make banners baseline, then other skills will replace them which will ensure the highest possible dps for the entire group. What then, making that stuff baseline as well so it can get replaced again? And then again?

>

> Just because something turns out to be the most efficient option in an environment that wants to maximise efficiency does not mean that the class needs to get the stuff as a baseline feature.

 

But you can't really compare spotter which is part of a trait line, with banners which are 2 utility skills. Besides I've never seen or heard of a ranger being kicked out of a group because of it. What I'm saying is that the optimal build shoudn't be a mandatory one. Anyway, I get what you'r saying, and maybe banners could be part as a trait line, like spotter is.

[artharon.9276]

> @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:

> > @"artharon.9276" said:

> > I'm glad to see being on the same page with many people here. Next elite spec should replace F menus with a soldier pet to carry banners and their skills for us.

> > I'll elaborate the idea with some makeshift concept arts when I have time. Captain or paragon whatever you call it, a leader type support based elite spec with pet builds fits perfectly.

>

> No, just extra F skills that consume adrenaline that provide buffs.

 

so you want a nerf then? hahah

[Cougre.6543]

> @"Sobx.1758" said:

> Who would that be a positive change for? Warriors? I don't think so.

Why do you not think so? Removing banners is, in essence, creating two utility slots for warrior. As it stands at the moment you can say that warrior does not have utility skills, and you would not be entirely wrong.

Think less of warrior as a position within a class hierarchy, and more as something that people play. Do you consider placing down banners every minute or so playing? I certainly do not.