Banners as F skills, not utility or Elite

[Rodrick.1942]

> I get you point. But you forget that the class in PvE at least, it's already about banners. Like if u don't bring banners to the team u can't join, that happens today.

> I agrree with OP here, maybe not banners F skill, but warrior seriously need another F skill

 

You're wrong, if you're truly understand how to play warrior as dps, you can just join and proof yourself. "Get kicked because of not bring banner " is just an excuse to hide a truth that you don't know how to play war properly in different situations.

 

Another example, I've joined a xera pug as dps zerker and I saw reaper tank boss. At first I thought it was chrono, everyone expect it should be chrono right, but no it's a reaper. The result is we killed xera within 2 try, I got top 2 deeps record, and reaper tank did his job very well.

 

Anything is possible in this game.

 

That being said, following the meta build guide and only hit kitty golem is the reason to put yourself into banner jail.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

> @"artharon.9276" said:

> > @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:

> > > @"artharon.9276" said:

> > > I'm glad to see being on the same page with many people here. Next elite spec should replace F menus with a soldier pet to carry banners and their skills for us.

> > > I'll elaborate the idea with some makeshift concept arts when I have time. Captain or paragon whatever you call it, a leader type support based elite spec with pet builds fits perfectly.

> >

> > No, just extra F skills that consume adrenaline that provide buffs.

>

> so you want a nerf then? hahah

 

An Espec that offers a F2, F3, and F4 that consume 1 bar of adrenaline for potentially great buffs that is further augmented by the traitline would be an upgrade to our support not a nerf. A pet carrying banners is a nerf, because pets can be killed, and dead pets carry no banners.

[Sobx.1758]

> @"Cougre.6543" said:

> > @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > Who would that be a positive change for? Warriors? I don't think so.

> Why do you not think so? Removing banners is, in essence, creating two utility slots for warrior. As it stands at the moment you can say that warrior does not have utility skills, and you would not be entirely wrong.

> Think less of warrior as a position within a class hierarchy, and more as something that people play. Do you consider placing down banners every minute or so playing? I certainly do not.

 

I don't think so, because all it does is makes warrior even more streamlined, basically deletes his supportive side that provides a **unique** (yup, that's the important part here imo) squad buff. Currently while playing warrior you at the very least have a reserved slot in the squad, because you're the only "banner option" in the game, remove banners and warrior is nothing more than a dps that any class can fill in. So you lose your designated warrior slot in squad but now instead of placing a banner every minute you can... uh... press the same key every 30 seconds for additional 2k dps I guess? I don't see that as a win for warriors (or anyone else for that matter), but to each their own.

 

And lets not make a mistake by thinking banner warrior isn't a solid dps anyways. Sure, banner-less warrior's is higher, but the difference here isn't gamechanging. With banners you're just supporting the squad for a **small** personal dps tax.

 

 

 

To make that clear, I'm not trying to make you change your mind. Just saying that I don't see the appeal of that idea for anyone involved in the game and the above is my reasoning, you're completely free to prefer them to get removed.

[Cougre.6543]

> @"Sobx.1758" said:

> snip

But why is it good for warrior to have a unique buff? It seemed as though such things should be getting culled out of the game with druid losing Grace of the Land, and Alacrity becoming a standardized boon.

I understand that it reserves a slot for warrior in any PvE group, but why should warrior get that special treatment? No other DPS class has that "luxury." It's a double edged sword too, because the expectation is for there to be only one warrior, rather than there being anywhere between none and whatever the expected number of DPS slots that specific content has.

Really though, gameplay should come first, and banners simply are the least interesting skill that can be in those slots barring signets that arguably should be reworked as well (think of Assassin Signet and Bane Signet for some examples of decent signets.)

[Sobx.1758]

> @"Cougre.6543" said:

> > @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > snip

> But why is it good for warrior to have a unique buff? It seemed as though such things should be getting culled out of the game with druid losing Grace of the Land, and Alacrity becoming a standardized boon.

 

Yup, lets cut anything that's unique to any of the class, remove all the weapon alternatives and make every class do exactly the same thing in exactly the same way, that's certainly the way to go. Actually remove the classes, leave just one with 3-4 specs, probably called "dps"/"heal"/"buff"/"tank" (that's a waste actually, lets merge "heal" and "buff" specs into one "support" spec), each granting a strictly limited set of skills revenant-style. Game fixed, no special treatments \o/ That might be what you want from the game, but I don't.

 

How is there an expectation for only one warrior? Maybe try running squads without braindead people that won't play anything other than what the "meta site" told them. Are you one of those people that try to claim warrior's dps is bad?

 

...finally, if you think they should be reworked, then that's great, not sure what to tell you other than what I've already wrote before.

[Chaarliee.2307]

> @"Rodrick.1942" said:

> > I get you point. But you forget that the class in PvE at least, it's already about banners. Like if u don't bring banners to the team u can't join, that happens today.

> > I agrree with OP here, maybe not banners F skill, but warrior seriously need another F skill

>

> You're wrong, if you're truly understand how to play warrior as dps, you can just join and proof yourself. "Get kicked because of not bring banner " is just an excuse to hide a truth that you don't know how to play war properly in different situations.

>

> Another example, I've joined a xera pug as dps zerker and I saw reaper tank boss. At first I thought it was chrono, everyone expect it should be chrono right, but no it's a reaper. The result is we killed xera within 2 try, I got top 2 deeps record, and reaper tank did his job very well.

>

> Anything is possible in this game.

>

> That being said, following the meta build guide and only hit kitty golem is the reason to put yourself into banner jail.

 

The only chance u can get away without using banners is if there is another warrior putting banners at the party. Clearly u need to raid more ;)

[artharon.9276]

> @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:

> > @"artharon.9276" said:

> > > @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:

> > > > @"artharon.9276" said:

> > > > I'm glad to see being on the same page with many people here. Next elite spec should replace F menus with a soldier pet to carry banners and their skills for us.

> > > > I'll elaborate the idea with some makeshift concept arts when I have time. Captain or paragon whatever you call it, a leader type support based elite spec with pet builds fits perfectly.

> > >

> > > No, just extra F skills that consume adrenaline that provide buffs.

> >

> > so you want a nerf then? hahah

>

> An Espec that offers a F2, F3, and F4 that consume 1 bar of adrenaline for potentially great buffs that is further augmented by the traitline would be an upgrade to our support not a nerf. A pet carrying banners is a nerf, because pets can be killed, and dead pets carry no banners.

 

warriors losing stupid amount of time while chasing their stupid banners. I'll try my best to explain it simple since new gen is simple, in a positive way.

 

A warriors will have an elite spec to turn them into buff machines, legit supporters

B: warriors will have to lose their banners replaced with something else in the future because anet and BIS don't mix.

C: warriors will get neither and instead will get another cheap elite spec like spellbreaker and the class will keep its identity crisis.

 

there's no other logical solution for this. I'm not going to beg benchmarking morons to let me in his raids without my banners equipped.

also who said pet soldiers will die and lose its ability? have you ever rolled a ranger? do they lose their pets in combat?

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

> @"artharon.9276" said:

> > @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:

> > > @"artharon.9276" said:

> > > > @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:

> > > > > @"artharon.9276" said:

> > > > > I'm glad to see being on the same page with many people here. Next elite spec should replace F menus with a soldier pet to carry banners and their skills for us.

> > > > > I'll elaborate the idea with some makeshift concept arts when I have time. Captain or paragon whatever you call it, a leader type support based elite spec with pet builds fits perfectly.

> > > >

> > > > No, just extra F skills that consume adrenaline that provide buffs.

> > >

> > > so you want a nerf then? hahah

> >

> > An Espec that offers a F2, F3, and F4 that consume 1 bar of adrenaline for potentially great buffs that is further augmented by the traitline would be an upgrade to our support not a nerf. A pet carrying banners is a nerf, because pets can be killed, and dead pets carry no banners.

>

> warriors losing stupid amount of time while chasing their stupid banners. I'll try my best to explain it simple since new gen is simple, in a positive way.

>

> A warriors will have an elite spec to turn them into buff machines, legit supporters

> B: warriors will have to lose their banners replaced with something else in the future because anet and BIS don't mix.

> C: warriors will get neither and instead will get another cheap elite spec like spellbreaker and the class will keep its identity crisis.

>

> there's no other logical solution for this. I'm not going to beg benchmarking morons to let me in his raids without my banners equipped.

> also who said pet soldiers will die and lose its ability? have you ever rolled a ranger? do they lose their pets in combat?

 

Have you seen Ranger pets in zerg fights? The best thing is for whatever buff/boon to be centered on the warrior as they move. Either as F2-F4 skills that toggle buffs/boons, or for Anet to rework banners (again) so that when the skill is used they are placed on the warrior's back and move with them. That would be limited to a single banner, but then you'd see banners in all the game modes rather than a small portion of one game mode.

[artharon.9276]

> @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:

> > @"artharon.9276" said:

> > > @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:

> > > > @"artharon.9276" said:

> > > > > @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:

> > > > > > @"artharon.9276" said:

> > > > > > I'm glad to see being on the same page with many people here. Next elite spec should replace F menus with a soldier pet to carry banners and their skills for us.

> > > > > > I'll elaborate the idea with some makeshift concept arts when I have time. Captain or paragon whatever you call it, a leader type support based elite spec with pet builds fits perfectly.

> > > > >

> > > > > No, just extra F skills that consume adrenaline that provide buffs.

> > > >

> > > > so you want a nerf then? hahah

> > >

> > > An Espec that offers a F2, F3, and F4 that consume 1 bar of adrenaline for potentially great buffs that is further augmented by the traitline would be an upgrade to our support not a nerf. A pet carrying banners is a nerf, because pets can be killed, and dead pets carry no banners.

> >

> > warriors losing stupid amount of time while chasing their stupid banners. I'll try my best to explain it simple since new gen is simple, in a positive way.

> >

> > A warriors will have an elite spec to turn them into buff machines, legit supporters

> > B: warriors will have to lose their banners replaced with something else in the future because anet and BIS don't mix.

> > C: warriors will get neither and instead will get another cheap elite spec like spellbreaker and the class will keep its identity crisis.

> >

> > there's no other logical solution for this. I'm not going to beg benchmarking morons to let me in his raids without my banners equipped.

> > also who said pet soldiers will die and lose its ability? have you ever rolled a ranger? do they lose their pets in combat?

>

> Have you seen Ranger pets in zerg fights? The best thing is for whatever buff/boon to be centered on the warrior as they move. Either as F2-F4 skills that toggle buffs/boons, or for Anet to rework banners (again) so that when the skill is used they are placed on the warrior's back and move with them. That would be limited to a single banner, but then you'd see banners in all the game modes rather than a small portion of one game mode.

 

and what exactly zerg fights contribute to true team based gameplay? most people roll their face over their keyboards in zergs. if you like running around a banner sticked in your back clipping trough your weird back slot items, more power to you. I bet nobody with a little sense of aesthetics would like it not even if it replaces your back slot items temporarily, sorry that won't happen. And hopefully no class will do everything at the same time. Including warriors. No burst skills with banner skills.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

> @"artharon.9276" said:

> > @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:

> > > @"artharon.9276" said:

> > > > @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:

> > > > > @"artharon.9276" said:

> > > > > > @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:

> > > > > > > @"artharon.9276" said:

> > > > > > > I'm glad to see being on the same page with many people here. Next elite spec should replace F menus with a soldier pet to carry banners and their skills for us.

> > > > > > > I'll elaborate the idea with some makeshift concept arts when I have time. Captain or paragon whatever you call it, a leader type support based elite spec with pet builds fits perfectly.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > No, just extra F skills that consume adrenaline that provide buffs.

> > > > >

> > > > > so you want a nerf then? hahah

> > > >

> > > > An Espec that offers a F2, F3, and F4 that consume 1 bar of adrenaline for potentially great buffs that is further augmented by the traitline would be an upgrade to our support not a nerf. A pet carrying banners is a nerf, because pets can be killed, and dead pets carry no banners.

> > >

> > > warriors losing stupid amount of time while chasing their stupid banners. I'll try my best to explain it simple since new gen is simple, in a positive way.

> > >

> > > A warriors will have an elite spec to turn them into buff machines, legit supporters

> > > B: warriors will have to lose their banners replaced with something else in the future because anet and BIS don't mix.

> > > C: warriors will get neither and instead will get another cheap elite spec like spellbreaker and the class will keep its identity crisis.

> > >

> > > there's no other logical solution for this. I'm not going to beg benchmarking morons to let me in his raids without my banners equipped.

> > > also who said pet soldiers will die and lose its ability? have you ever rolled a ranger? do they lose their pets in combat?

> >

> > Have you seen Ranger pets in zerg fights? The best thing is for whatever buff/boon to be centered on the warrior as they move. Either as F2-F4 skills that toggle buffs/boons, or for Anet to rework banners (again) so that when the skill is used they are placed on the warrior's back and move with them. That would be limited to a single banner, but then you'd see banners in all the game modes rather than a small portion of one game mode.

>

> and what exactly zerg fights contribute to true team based gameplay? most people roll their face over their keyboards in zergs. if you like running around a banner sticked in your back clipping trough your weird back slot items, more power to you. I bet nobody with a little sense of aesthetics would like it not even if it replaces your back slot items temporarily, sorry that won't happen. And hopefully no class will do everything at the same time. Including warriors. No burst skills with banner skills.

 

*gasp* don't interfere with Fashion Wars 2.

[Infusion.7149]

The last time Arenanet touched banners they cut the group bonus from 170 to 100. If it doesn't require a skill slot expect it to drop further ; for example if it doesn't require a skill slot maybe you would only be able to have 1 banner active per warrior or some other nonsense. Don't ruin warrior in PvE, it's already dropping in PvP/WvW in terms of effectiveness due to the overkill removal of damage on CC nerfs.

 

I'd rather have an end berserk mode button.

[KIIIL.1860]

> @"Infusion.7149" said:

> The last time Arenanet touched banners they cut the group bonus from 170 to 100. If it doesn't require a skill slot expect it to drop further ; for example if it doesn't require a skill slot maybe you would only be able to have 1 banner active per warrior or some other nonsense. Don't ruin warrior in PvE, it's already dropping in PvP/WvW in terms of effectiveness due to the overkill removal of damage on CC nerfs.

>

> I'd rather have an end berserk mode button.

 

you forgot to say that the banners also took away the effect of regeneration .

[Infusion.7149]

Swiftness was added and a damage modifier on swiftness was incorporated into Warrior's Sprint in the Discipline line.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

> @"Infusion.7149" said:

> Swiftness was added and a damage modifier on swiftness was incorporated into Warrior's Sprint in the Discipline line.

 

I would have rather had superspeed on weapon swap and a damage modifier on superspeed.

[KIIIL.1860]

> @"Infusion.7149" said:

> Swiftness was added and a damage modifier on swiftness was incorporated into Warrior's Sprint in the Discipline line.

 

but it's only 3 seconds of swiftness ,regeneration lasted 60 seconds . Yes, they added speed damage if you have a trait , but they took away the extra damage from a bleeding enemy

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

> @"KIIIL.1860" said:

> > @"Infusion.7149" said:

> > Swiftness was added and a damage modifier on swiftness was incorporated into Warrior's Sprint in the Discipline line.

>

> but it's only 3 seconds of swiftness ,regeneration lasted 60 seconds . Yes, they added speed damage if you have a trait , but they took away the extra damage from a bleeding enemy

 

I hated that change. It's like Anet doesn't want warrior to have nice things....

[Lighter.5631]

people often forget that warrior used to have a side role which is might share, but now, that' role is also deleted from warrior, now it really is just banner slave.

 

[Sobx.1758]

Yeah, might botting was so interesting, totally added a lot to the gameplay lmao.

Still a solid dps with group support and your weird fixation about some meme naming won't change that.

[Cougre.6543]

At least Phalanx Strength did not detract anything from the gameplay. Barring the elite, banners in their current form make for the least interesting skill type in the whole game.

[Lighter.5631]

> @"Sobx.1758" said:

> Yeah, might botting was so interesting, totally added a lot to the gameplay lmao.

> Still a solid dps with group support and your weird fixation about some meme naming won't change that.

 

it's you who have this weird fixation to be different then everybody else with your hipster-ness lol.

it's like you are so obsessed with me, every time i post something about banner slave, you are so fast to respond

 

i seriously don't care what you think, literally everybody called warrior banner slave since 2013,

convincing me won't make everybody stop calling warrior banner slave, but you do you.

 

yes, because the gameplay addition is minimum so we should remove it, god your logic is toxic.

 

and of course, the name is meme naming, while every build else gets normal build name? you are so biased and self centric, you would make up everything just to make yourself feel right LOOL

[Edge.8724]

Metabattle and SnowCrows which are the 2 main sites people visits to get a build name the Warrior builds either dps (focused only on damage), and other builds that uses Banners are legit called "Bannerslave". This has been going on for several years and the name has sticked. Not sure why some people thinks it's a new "meme" while almost everyone, even top raiding guilds calls them like this.

It's not complicated. Bannerslave, without their banners, Warriors are wayy below other classes for pure dps roles and thus making them obsolete vs others (likd Dragonhunters, Holosmith, Daredevil, Deadeye, Weaver, etc...)

[Sobx.1758]

> @"Lighter.5631" said:

> > @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > Yeah, might botting was so interesting, totally added a lot to the gameplay lmao.

> > Still a solid dps with group support and your weird fixation about some meme naming won't change that.

>

> it's you who have this weird fixation to be different then everybody else with your hipster-ness lol.

> it's like you are so obsessed with me, every time i post something about banner slave, you are so fast to respond

 

Hold your horses buddy, you're not anything special to me. I just see some irrational "jUsT a BaNnEr SlaVe :( " teary post so I answer that it's false. Because it is.

 

> i seriously don't care what you think, literally everybody called warrior banner slave since 2013,

> convincing me won't make everybody stop calling warrior banner slave, but you do you.

 

The meme name is irrelevant as I said multiple times now and you always failed to respond with anything other than some cheap personal jabs or straight up name-calling.

 

> yes, because the gameplay addition is minimum so we should remove it, god your logic is toxic.

 

**When did I say we should remove it?** Stop lying.

If might botting was still unchanged you'd just cry about "being useless passive bs and might bot all the time :( ". It changes nothing, so you recalling another build that doesn't really differentiate the gameplay is pretty pointless. But you don't understand that and somehow try to flip it into claiming I'm totally for removing everything from warrior, oof.

 

> and of course, the name is meme naming, while every build else gets normal build name? you are so biased and self centric, you would make up everything just to make yourself feel right LOOL

 

What "normal build name"? A lot of builds are named after what they mainly do, especially in cases where they're unique in one way or another. Also fairly sure BS is a self-imposed name and nobody really cares aside of you, because you take it as an excuse that it does nothing else than spam banners, completely disregarding warrior's dmg.

 

**Make sure to expand on how exactly I'm "biased and self centric(??)" here,** because I don't see it.

You're the one that try to bend the facts and insist that the naming of a build is be-all-end-all argument for anything you want it to be.

TOTALLY DOES NO DMG BECAUSE IT HAS "SLAVE" IN IT'S BANNER BUILD NAME! :(

ok, sure.

[Sobx.1758]

> @"Edge.8724" said:

>SnowCrows which are the 2 main sites people visits to get a build name the Warrior builds either dps (focused only on damage), and other builds that uses Banners are legit called "Bannerslave".

 

I really think it wouldn't matter anyways, but... No, pretty sure snowcrows doesn't call it a "bannerslave".

 

 

>This has been going on for several years and the name has sticked. Not sure why some people thinks it's a new "meme" while almost everyone, even top raiding guilds calls them like this.

 

It's a meme name, never said it's a "new meme", I'm well aware it's not. But the name itself is still a meme/joke and it's irrelevant.

[Lighter.5631]

> @"Edge.8724" said:

> Metabattle and SnowCrows which are the 2 main sites people visits to get a build name the Warrior builds either dps (focused only on damage), and other builds that uses Banners are legit called "Bannerslave". This has been going on for several years and the name has sticked. Not sure why some people thinks it's a new "meme" while almost everyone, even top raiding guilds calls them like this.

> It's not complicated. Bannerslave, without their banners, Warriors are wayy below other classes for pure dps roles and thus making them obsolete vs others (likd Dragonhunters, Holosmith, Daredevil, Deadeye, Weaver, etc...)

 

sobx is so funny lol, literally everybody have being calling warrior banner slave since 2013 and he thinks the entire community will actually change it's name just because he says other wise.

[cryorion.9532]

> @"Sobx.1758" said:

> It's a meme name, never said it's a "new meme", I'm well aware it's not. But the name itself is still a meme/joke and it's irrelevant.

 

Open raid and T4 fractal lfg and see how many "bs" are there instead of "banner warrior" or "bw" or "war". Being called bs is not really offensive at all, but it shows the fact that banner builds are the only meta builds and every other build is inferior, either compared to bs build with its group buffing ability or compared to other professions and their elite specs. For example, play dps berserker in 100 CM fractal. Compare your burst with weaver/soulbeast/dragonhunter. Remember that these professions also have tempest, druid, firebrand support meta builds available. OR play condi dps berserker on Dhuum boss. Compare your bursts and damages with condi weaver/firebrand/regenade. Remember that those professions also have support builds that are meta.

So now you can see that warrior has not much to offer except banners. Thus bannerslave. Few years ago, it was also PS with might share but that became obsolete with druid and firebrand/renegade support combo. Also don't forget that current banner builds are identical with dps builds (with one trait change based on encounter).