Banners as F skills, not utility or Elite

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

> @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > It's a meme name, never said it's a "new meme", I'm well aware it's not. But the name itself is still a meme/joke and it's irrelevant.

>

> Open raid and T4 fractal lfg and see how many "bs" are there instead of "banner warrior" or "bw" or "war". Being called bs is not really offensive at all, but it shows the fact that banner builds are the only meta builds and every other build is inferior, either compared to bs build with its group buffing ability or compared to other professions and their elite specs. For example, play dps berserker in 100 CM fractal. Compare your burst with weaver/soulbeast/dragonhunter. Remember that these professions also have tempest, druid, firebrand support meta builds available. OR play condi dps berserker on Dhuum boss. Compare your bursts and damages with condi weaver/firebrand/regenade. Remember that those professions also have support builds that are meta.

> So now you can see that warrior has not much to offer except banners. Thus bannerslave. Few years ago, it was also PS with might share but that became obsolete with druid and firebrand/renegade support combo. Also don't forget that current banner builds are identical with dps builds (with one trait change based on encounter).

 

Sounds more like warrior needs buffing and a proper support line.

[Sobx.1758]

> @"Lighter.5631" said:

> > @"Edge.8724" said:

> > Metabattle and SnowCrows which are the 2 main sites people visits to get a build name the Warrior builds either dps (focused only on damage), and other builds that uses Banners are legit called "Bannerslave". This has been going on for several years and the name has sticked. Not sure why some people thinks it's a new "meme" while almost everyone, even top raiding guilds calls them like this.

> > It's not complicated. Bannerslave, without their banners, Warriors are wayy below other classes for pure dps roles and thus making them obsolete vs others (likd Dragonhunters, Holosmith, Daredevil, Deadeye, Weaver, etc...)

>

> sobx is so funny lol, literally everybody have being calling warrior banner slave since 2013 and he thinks the entire community will actually change it's name just because he says other wise.

 

When did I say anything about changing the name? Do you understand what you read? I literally said the opposite: the name doesn't matter and moving banners to F keys wouldn't change the name, because it's convenient, known and slightly more fun than some other regular boring build names. So... yeah, a meme name.

 

Seriously, what are you even talking about right now, lmao. Do you seriously have so little to say to support your position that you need to make blatant lies about what I say? :D

[Sobx.1758]

> @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > It's a meme name, never said it's a "new meme", I'm well aware it's not. But the name itself is still a meme/joke and it's irrelevant.

>

> Open raid and T4 fractal lfg and see how many "bs" are there instead of "banner warrior" or "bw" or "war".

 

How does it change ANYTHING from what I've said?

Like literally what exactly are you addressing here? The quoted part? How does it change anythign about being a meme name? Meme (in this case "meme name") doesn't mean it's an unused one, you understand that, right?

 

>Being called bs is not really offensive at all, but it shows the fact that banner builds are the only meta builds and every other build is inferior, either compared to bs build with its group buffing ability or compared to other professions and their elite specs. For example, play dps berserker in 100 CM fractal. Compare your burst with weaver/soulbeast/dragonhunter. Remember that these professions also have tempest, druid, firebrand support meta builds available. OR play condi dps berserker on Dhuum boss. Compare your bursts and damages with condi weaver/firebrand/regenade. Remember that those professions also have support builds that are meta.

> So now you can see that warrior has not much to offer except banners. Thus bannerslave. Few years ago, it was also PS with might share but that became obsolete with druid and firebrand/renegade support combo. Also don't forget that current banner builds are identical with dps builds (with one trait change based on encounter).

 

Yes, I agree that bs is not offensive.

Now the fact that people are looking for "bs" build doesn't mean other war builds are inferior, the class can easly fill any dps spot perfectly fine. Squads are looking specifically for bs, because it has unique buff that improves overall squad dps. There's no problem with filling dps spots with non-bs berk builds.

 

I'm not sure what you're complaining about. Is it seriously the 1k difference in dps because some classes are capable of dealing 38k instead of 37k? Is it that not every class/build has literally the same dps? Expecting that doesn't seem reasonable to me. Or even needed. There will be always a build that can do something a little better than the other, so there will be always a small % of playerbase that are... well... too stupid? Blinded? Deluded? ...to understand it really doesn't matter, so they'll blindly follow the meta site because they think otherwise they'll fail I guess? Or maybe they think that potentially killing a boss 20 seconds faster is meaningful in a co-op mode? I don't really know what your plan here would be.

And that's the question both for you and anyone who complains about the current state of war pve dps, including the lightguy that repeatedly fails at addressing ANYTHING in my posts.

[cryorion.9532]

> @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:

> Sounds more like warrior needs buffing and a proper support line.

 

Well, in order for Berserker as dps to be more on par with soulbeasts, dragonhunters, weavers, etc, the spec needs higher peaks/opening bursts. Berserker would be broken if Anet just increased weapon damages to have that high burst because sustained damage would be also high af + that would also buff bs builds which wouldn't be very smart. Two things should probably happen:

 

1. all banner builds should be forced to use tactics instead of Strength/Discipline - in order to distinguish banner and dps builds more, Tactics should be used with banner builds since the traitline is group oriented; that also means there needs to be synergy with banners somehow or else there is no reason to pick the traitline; banners could get condi removal effect for group on pick up for some situational help, but not sure if it would be any useful in PvP/WvW where people die on banners and res/stomp has priority over picking up...

 

2. Strength should get another damage modifier with longer cooldown and short duration - the idea is to have this special modifier available when starting rotation or loop (or even every 2nd loop, etc) to make the burst spike, Peak Performance failed at this due to the nerfs it got AND due to Physical skills having cast times and aftercasts while doing low damages

This change would also requite toning down Decapitate slightly. This way, Berserker would do higher openers/bursts at the cost of lower sustained damage. It doesn't have to be extreme + it would be nice if weapons other than axes would be required to achieve best dps, like greatsword... or hammer/offhand sword kappa.

 

**Tl;dr:** make banner builds require Tactics to make them more support oriented and make power dps Berserker more balanced towards top dps specs

 

When it comes to condi, not really sure what is Anet's intention since condi weaver and firebrand can reach broken numbers within seconds, completely ignoring what condi is supposed to be...

[cryorion.9532]

@"Sobx.1758"

If by 1k dps difference you mean sometimes like 30k or even more, then yeah. A bit extreme example but realistic. 100CM 1st boss.

[Aveigel.2601]

Plz don't pollute the thread by taking things personally and debating/justifying how you feel and your reasons for it. It adds too little value and takes too much space.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

> @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:

> > Sounds more like warrior needs buffing and a proper support line.

>

> Well, in order for Berserker as dps to be more on par with soulbeasts, dragonhunters, weavers, etc, the spec needs higher peaks/opening bursts. Berserker would be broken if Anet just increased weapon damages to have that high burst because sustained damage would be also high af + that would also buff bs builds which wouldn't be very smart. Two things should probably happen:

So, increase the F1 damage scalings in all modes.

> 1. all banner builds should be forced to use tactics instead of Strength/Discipline - in order to distinguish banner and dps builds more, Tactics should be used with banner builds since the traitline is group oriented; that also means there needs to be synergy with banners somehow or else there is no reason to pick the traitline; banners could get condi removal effect for group on pick up for some situational help, but not sure if it would be any useful in PvP/WvW where people die on banners and res/stomp has priority over picking up...

Banners used to be in Tactics if I recall. Discipline is a strange place for the trait.

> 2. Strength should get another damage modifier with longer cooldown and short duration - the idea is to have this special modifier available when starting rotation or loop (or even every 2nd loop, etc) to make the burst spike, Peak Performance failed at this due to the nerfs it got AND due to Physical skills having cast times and aftercasts while doing low damages

+240 power from FGS, and +250 power from Pinnacle of Strength, +21% more damage on Berserker's Power. Strength isn't where more modifiers are needed. That would be Discipline, Defense, and Arms.

> This change would also requite toning down Decapitate slightly. This way, Berserker would do higher openers/bursts at the cost of lower sustained damage. It doesn't have to be extreme + it would be nice if weapons other than axes would be required to achieve best dps, like greatsword... or hammer/offhand sword kappa.

>

> **Tl;dr:** make banner builds require Tactics to make them more support oriented and make power dps Berserker more balanced towards top dps specs

That would require NOT toning down Decap, but toning UP the other bursts.

> When it comes to condi, not really sure what is Anet's intention since condi weaver and firebrand can reach broken numbers within seconds, completely ignoring what condi is supposed to be...

Change the Zerker condi traits to pump out more stacks of burning (at least 2 more stacks). Change Bloodlust in Arms to have a longer bleed duration as well as return the 10% damage versus bleeding targets.

 

 

[cryorion.9532]

@"Lan Deathrider.5910"

The issue with adding the damage modifier to Discipline is that bs builds would use it, too. Defense doesn't make sense and Arms focuses more on condi rather than power. The only logical reason is Strength that wouldn't be used by bs, basically. However, it is true that Strength already has a lot of damage boosts.

Also, the banner trait that doubles warrior's stats makes sense in Discipline. Tactics banner trait should enhance group aspect of banners.

[Lighter.5631]

> @"Sobx.1758" said:

 

> Now the fact that people are looking for "bs" build doesn't mean other war builds are inferior

 

lol this dude is out of his mind, not even his own words go through his mind before coming out.

yes, people looking for banner slave just because they felt like it, totally not because it's superior and required.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

> @"cryorion.9532" said:

> @"Lan Deathrider.5910"

> The issue with adding the damage modifier to Discipline is that bs builds would use it, too. Defense doesn't make sense and Arms focuses more on condi rather than power. The only logical reason is Strength that wouldn't be used by bs, basically. However, it is true that Strength already has a lot of damage boosts.

> Also, the banner trait that doubles warrior's stats makes sense in Discipline. Tactics banner trait should enhance group aspect of banners.

 

Except that Defense and Discipline already have damage modifiers in them, and in Discipline you can force it to compete with Double Standards so BS can't take it. Arms has 4/9 selectable traits that directly benefit power builds, heck it even has a potential 500 ferocity boost. Warrior condi has always been more hybrid in nature and not a pure condi class, and our core condi traitline is still configured like it, even our condi E-Spec is hybrid in nature. Adding in the 10% damage versus bleeding foes into Arms is still thematic and worthwhile to do. I'd even add a damage boost versus burning foes into Berserker at this point.

 

Banner trait used to be in Tactics, it should still be there an was more group oriented when it was there.

[Hannelore.8153]

I play an off-meta build with my Warrior--the same build I play in WvW, actually, which is Crusader+Zealot's, Axe/WH and HealShouts.

 

Why? Because its literally the only viable support build Warrior has that isn't banner slave. And the thing to understand is, the reason its like this is because for many years groups only wanted Guardians and Warriors in their parties because of how it trivialised content, yet for some reason over time Warrior was nerfed into the ground while Guardian repeatedly buffed into what eventually became Firebrand.

 

Yes, you can go DPS Zerker and put out some nasty damage numbers, but its selfish (besides Phalanx Strength, for Power builds).

 

Alternatively, you can go banner slave and support the group in many ways (offensive, defensive, etc.) while doing okay damage yourself, but its the opposite of the first choice, with no personal enjoyment. Banners are the least engaging support skills in the game, they're even worse than Engineer turrets in terms of how interesting they are. Beyond the Warbanner, which is used for Revives (and stomps in competitive modes), banners are basically dead buttons once placed, like you're carrying no skills at all.

 

Nearly every Warrior is either on the single viable meta build, or plays weird off-meta builds, because there's no options. Moving the Banner skills to the F# keys won't fix that, only changing them to be engaging and adding more build options as well.

 

The major problems are:

- Warrior is focused too much around sustain. They already have a high base sustain; they need more fun toys, not defense.

- The damage boosts are all in different trees, which makes taking them hard.

- There's not enough boon availability; Warriors overstack Fury and Might and have barely any access to other boons, if at all.

- The banners need to provide skills, like Ranger Spirits, not become dead slots.

- They can wield alot of weapons but have no way to take advantage of it (e.g, a third weapon slot, opposite of Ele/Engi).

 

.. And many other things, that I won't even get into here. But you get the point.

 

If you want to move something to F# keys, move Rampage there as an Adrenaline-based transform. :p

[cryorion.9532]

> @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:

> > @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > @"Lan Deathrider.5910"

> > The issue with adding the damage modifier to Discipline is that bs builds would use it, too. Defense doesn't make sense and Arms focuses more on condi rather than power. The only logical reason is Strength that wouldn't be used by bs, basically. However, it is true that Strength already has a lot of damage boosts.

> > Also, the banner trait that doubles warrior's stats makes sense in Discipline. Tactics banner trait should enhance group aspect of banners.

>

> Except that Defense and Discipline already have damage modifiers in them, and in Discipline you can force it to compete with Double Standards so BS can't take it. Arms has 4/9 selectable traits that directly benefit power builds, heck it even has a potential 500 ferocity boost. Warrior condi has always been more hybrid in nature and not a pure condi class, and our core condi traitline is still configured like it, even our condi E-Spec is hybrid in nature. Adding in the 10% damage versus bleeding foes into Arms is still thematic and worthwhile to do. I'd even add a damage boost versus burning foes into Berserker at this point.

>

> Banner trait used to be in Tactics, it should still be there an was more group oriented when it was there.

 

But dps warrior also requires Doubled Standards, since that gives 200 power, prec, ferocity and condi damage, not much sense having to spec into Tactics to get this bonus to boost own dps. Condi berserker consists of roughly 10-15% of power damage, rest is condi damage. The vast majority of damage is coming from burning and bleeds. That is not really a hybrid. Boosting power would be very little beneficial compared to boosting condi.

Arms has only signet trait that directly boosts power damage through ferocity stacks + in its current state, there is no reason to pick Arms for power builds in PvE, it will always be inferior to Strength when it comes to increasing power damage

and inferior to Discipline, too, because of Doubled Standards stats and Decapitate spam which requires Axe Mastery.

 

Would be nice to get some refreshing changes in next balance patch, but I kinda doubt it. For now, it is just decapitate spam until next expansion I guess?

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

> @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:

> > > @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > > @"Lan Deathrider.5910"

> > > The issue with adding the damage modifier to Discipline is that bs builds would use it, too. Defense doesn't make sense and Arms focuses more on condi rather than power. The only logical reason is Strength that wouldn't be used by bs, basically. However, it is true that Strength already has a lot of damage boosts.

> > > Also, the banner trait that doubles warrior's stats makes sense in Discipline. Tactics banner trait should enhance group aspect of banners.

> >

> > Except that Defense and Discipline already have damage modifiers in them, and in Discipline you can force it to compete with Double Standards so BS can't take it. Arms has 4/9 selectable traits that directly benefit power builds, heck it even has a potential 500 ferocity boost. Warrior condi has always been more hybrid in nature and not a pure condi class, and our core condi traitline is still configured like it, even our condi E-Spec is hybrid in nature. Adding in the 10% damage versus bleeding foes into Arms is still thematic and worthwhile to do. I'd even add a damage boost versus burning foes into Berserker at this point.

> >

> > Banner trait used to be in Tactics, it should still be there an was more group oriented when it was there.

>

> But dps warrior also requires Doubled Standards, since that gives 200 power, prec, ferocity and condi damage, not much sense having to spec into Tactics to get this bonus to boost own dps. Condi berserker consists of roughly 10-15% of power damage, rest is condi damage. The vast majority of damage is coming from burning and bleeds. That is not really a hybrid. Boosting power would be very little beneficial compared to boosting condi.

You misunderstand. Both sword and Longbow are hybrid weapons. They are neither pure power or pure condi, but can be built towards both, or in the middle. You can run pure condi on sword, but you can also run pure power. You can't do that with something like Necro scepter. Warrior does not have pure condi weapons or traitlines, and that is why it's condi DPS builds lag behind other condi DPS builds.

 

> Arms has only signet trait that directly boosts power damage through ferocity stacks + in its current state, there is no reason to pick Arms for power builds in PvE, it will always be inferior to Strength when it comes to increasing power damage

> and inferior to Discipline, too, because of Doubled Standards stats and Decapitate spam which requires Axe Mastery.

Sundering Bursts is an easy 10 vuln. Unsuspecting Foe is a 50% crit chance increase that is easy to get in PvE and benefits power more than condi, Burst Precision is benefits power more than condi. If you are maximizing personal DPS then you take Strength, Arms, and then Discipline in that order. Now talking about Raids versus FotM or OW or WvW Roaming each of those gives you different mileage. Still that extra 500 ferocity is 33.33% more damage. The extra 200 power and 200 ferocity from DS and banners is about an 18% damage increase.

 

Granted you have 9 other players in a raid getting stats from those banners, which is a squad wide 9% boost and is the entire reason why warriors are pigeonholed into bringing banners. I'd rather they make banners just give boons, and change our power trait in Tactics to give 100 power, condi, ferocity, and precision to nearby allies.

> Would be nice to get some refreshing changes in next balance patch, but I kinda doubt it. For now, it is just decapitate spam until next expansion I guess?

Sadly. Honestly all the primal bursts should do what Decap does and recharge on hit.

 

 

[cryorion.9532]

@"Lan Deathrider.5910"

In PvE, it is assumed that you already have 100% crit chance when fully buffed so Arms traits except Signet Mastery become useless. If we are talking about dps berserker to compete with other dpses in endgame content.

 

About those primal bursts recharing on hit, that would be surely epic but also op af in some cases. It would be also pretty big powercreep, making Berserk mode more flexible would be better imo.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

> @"cryorion.9532" said:

> @"Lan Deathrider.5910"

> In PvE, it is assumed that you already have 100% crit chance when fully buffed so Arms traits except Signet Mastery become useless. If we are talking about dps berserker to compete with other dpses in endgame content.

Not disagreeing about the crit chance, but that single trait is a 33.33% damage increase. Every power dps trait in Strength comes out to about 50%. Discipline comes out behind Arms. If you're talking about maximizing dps then Signet Mastery is going to increase your DPS more than DS, and you can still bring banners for the group. Just precast a few signets prior to combat and swap out to what you need before hand. That or keep a low CD signet on hand to fuel the charges.

 

As an aside it ticks me off that the stacks disappear when you mount up. Otherwise I'd staple Signet Mastery in OW PvE and WvW. Although there is enough QQ about Warclaw that they might just make it slower than running with quickness lol.

 

> About those primal bursts recharing on hit, that would be surely epic but also op af in some cases. It would be also pretty big powercreep, making Berserk mode more flexible would be better imo.

It would be OPAF but sure would be fun though right?

Honestly the instant recharge on Decap was a mistake, and should be something built within the traitline to use with any Primal Burst. If it imposed a debuff on you for using it then it'd be balanced. Shoot that should have been Fatal Frenzy, recharge primal bursts on hit, but take -300 toughness for 3s each time.

 

Dadnir put some proposed changes in the profession tab that sound fairly reasonable, go check them out.

 

 

 

[Sobx.1758]

> @"Lighter.5631" said:

> > @"Sobx.1758" said:

>

> > Now the fact that people are looking for "bs" build doesn't mean other war builds are inferior

>

> lol this dude is out of his mind, not even his own words go through his mind before coming out.

> yes, people looking for banner slave just because they felt like it, totally not because it's superior and required.

 

Good job cutting half of the sentence out of context and pretending you have something to say when you clearly know you don't, which is exaclty why you chose that way of responding. :)

Now try rereading my posts with understanding, because apparently you just keep failing. Hilarious.

[cryorion.9532]

@"Lan Deathrider.5910"

Idk but 100 power + 100 precision + 100 ferocity + 7% damage + 360 ferocity when wielding 2 axes seems a lot better than 500 ferocity.

I checked those Berserker changes, some are interesting but please don't touch Savage Instinct, that trait is so good and useful in some situations.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

> @"cryorion.9532" said:

> @"Lan Deathrider.5910"

> Idk but 100 power + 100 precision + 100 ferocity + 7% damage + 360 ferocity when wielding 2 axes seems a lot better than 500 ferocity.

Depends on the content, mode, and the build. Not everyone likes axe/axe.

> I checked those Berserker changes, some are interesting but please don't touch Savage Instinct, that trait is so good and useful in some situations.

I recommended the invuln frames on when you use a Primal Burst. gives you more ways to use it and more availability. The stunbreak is really on for when you use Headbutt to initiate BMode.