Which utility skills should I use for elite spec idea?

[Headcase.4618]

For context, I have this idea for an elite spec called an "Aethermancer." An engi that channels aether magic through scientific means and wields a mace. I have two potential sets of utility skills they could use but I'm not sure which one. Either glyphs or weapon summons (similar to either ele's weapons or guard's spirit weapons.) So my question is which one of these should I go with?

[Kodama.6453]

That actually depends on the mechanic you want that elite spec to focus on.

 

Glyphs are defined by being "flip skills", they have different effects based on your current form.

Look at the 2 classes which currently have access to glyphs:

* Druid: glyphs are changing effects between base form and celestial avatar form

* Elementalist: glyphs are changing effects between the different attunements

 

Which means that if you want to use glyphs, then you **have** to build a form changing mechanic in the elite spec mechanic. Which is actually a bad choice, in my opinion, since we already had that with the last elite spec holosmith. Glyphs could have worked for holosmith, since we are switching between our base form and the photonforge, but that opportunity was missed.

 

Giving us another "form switching" elite spec would feel redundant.

So if we have to chose between these 2 options, then I think weapon summons are the better option.

Have to say that I would personally enjoy a chemical focused elite spec more, tho....

[ledernierrempart.6871]

weapon summon is called kits in enginners language. and yes i would really like more kits. but if they want to make an original spec they will surely give new type os spells to engi which kits aren't.

[Dawdler.8521]

Yeah I'm not quite sure what the difference between an ele flipping out a greatsword or an engineer flipping out a mortar... except the later is much better since it's not on cd, you can change back to normal weapon at any time.

 

Why would we ever want an inferior system?

[Kodama.6453]

> @"ledernierrempart.6871" said:

> weapon summon is called kits in enginners language. and yes i would really like more kits. but if they want to make an original spec they will surely give new type os spells to engi which kits aren't.

 

He specified in his post that the weapon summons could either work like conjured weapons (which basically are kits, just with a CD) or like spirit weapons, which are basically just fancy animations for different effects.

 

If they go with anything of these options he has given, then most likely the spirit weapon approach.

[Yasai.3549]

I've got a better idea.

 

**TRAPS.**

[Kodama.6453]

> @"Yasai.3549" said:

> I've got a better idea.

>

> **TRAPS.**

 

I would prefer preparations, considering that they function basically the same, but with the addition that you fire them manually instead of them triggering every time an enemy walks over them.

[Headcase.4618]

> @"Kodama.6453" said:

> Have to say that I would personally enjoy a chemical focused elite spec more, tho....

 

 

Funny enough, I did initially had an idea for an alchemist spec, but outside of giving them a torch, I couldn't think anything for them outside of more elixirs

[Headcase.4618]

> @"Kodama.6453" said:

> He specified in his post that the weapon summons could either work like conjured weapons (which basically are kits, just with a CD) or like spirit weapons, which are basically just fancy animations for different effects.

>

> If they go with anything of these options he has given, then most likely the spirit weapon approach.

 

When you put it that way, the spirit weapons model would make the most sense, although it might be possible for them to be like conjured weapons, in that you just summon a weapon other players can use without creating a copy for yourself, or maybe some combination of conjured and spirt weapons

[Kodama.6453]

> @"Headcase.4618" said:

> > @"Kodama.6453" said:

> > Have to say that I would personally enjoy a chemical focused elite spec more, tho....

>

>

> Funny enough, I did initially had an idea for an alchemist spec, but outside of giving them a torch, I couldn't think anything for them outside of more elixirs

 

I think there are many ways to work with the alchemy theme except elixirs.

 

For example, I already mentioned that I would enjoy preparations as a skill type for the engineer. The engineer could prepare devices on the battlefield to spread chemical compounds when the time is right. These could have both, harmful effects for the enemy and supportive effects for allies.

 

Another way could be using the venom mechanic. Having an instant cast buff effect for your allies around you and buffing their next outgoing attacks, which would be thematically appropriate in my opinion since chemistry allows a wide array of different toxins or just using stuff like acid coating for weapons.

 

In general, acids (and therefore harmful ways to utilise alchemy) are a thematic that I really miss in this game. The only skill left with acid thematic is acid bomb from the elixir gun, we used to have some traits working with that thematic in the past, tho. Like acidic elixirs or acid coating.

 

And this whole theme would also work perfectly with a condition based elite spec, which is something we need. Holosmith and scrapper are both focused mostly on power damage and engineer also lacks utility skills for the condition playstyle. Just kits give you conditions, but gadgets and turrets are more focused on power. Elixirs are mostly neutral, except elixir x, which again heavily favors power damage.

 

And even the kits are all hybrid...

Flamethrower? Power scaling on auto (increased when attacking burning targets).

Grenades? Almost all grenades have pretty good power scaling and the toolbelt is one of the strongest power burst skills we have.

Bombs? Power auto and toolbelt.

Tools? Power auto, toolbelt, and crowbar.

Elixir gun? Power damage on the glob and acid bomb.

Mortar? Power damage on auto and toolbelt.

 

We **desperately** need a condition elite spec.

[Taril.8619]

> @"Kodama.6453" said:

> > @"Yasai.3549" said:

> > I've got a better idea.

> >

> > **TRAPS.**

>

> I would prefer preparations, considering that they function basically the same, but with the addition that you fire them manually instead of them triggering every time an enemy walks over them.

 

Traps feel more fluid though, because you can insta-pop them by placing them on an enemy. With preparations, you need to wait 3 seconds, which even in PvE can often mean a boss has already yeeted across the zone...

 

As far as new Engie utilities go...

 

I think Signets could be interesting. There's some interesting design space there with how toolbelt skills would work. Would they also provide passive bonuses? Not to mention how Signet actives often have 0 connection with the passive effects allowing some really odd pairings to cater for a variety of builds.

[Kodama.6453]

> @"Taril.8619" said:

>

> Traps feel more fluid though, because you can insta-pop them by placing them on an enemy. With preparations, you need to wait 3 seconds, which even in PvE can often mean a boss has already yeeted across the zone...

>

> As far as new Engie utilities go...

>

> I think Signets could be interesting. There's some interesting design space there with how toolbelt skills would work. Would they also provide passive bonuses? Not to mention how Signet actives often have 0 connection with the passive effects allowing some really odd pairings to cater for a variety of builds.

 

I get where you are coming from with traps being more fluid.

But looking at the elite specs we already have available and what is missing from engineer, I think there are 2 niches we need this elite spec to fill: conditions and support.

And I think that preparations work a bit better in that case. With being a support spec, I think something that we can trigger any time ourselves is better for gameplay than something that requires an enemy to walk over it.

 

Signets are an interesting idea. I like them, every class has their own unique "ring design" for these skills and I would love to see how engineer flavoured rings look like.

 

But there are many more utility types I could imagine for the engineer. Especially with the corner stones I have set for the 3rd elite spec for myself, being condition focused, supportive in playstyle, and having a chemical thematic. Some ideas I personally am thinking about for an own concept these days:

* Punishments: engineers could have different caustic chemicals at hand to "corrode" enemy boons and apply poison stacks

* Corruptions: dangerous chemicals, which are inflicting different conditions on the engineer to create powerful effects

* Venoms: different weapon coatings, using an array of chemical toxins and acids to enhance the next attacks of your allies

[Taril.8619]

> @"Kodama.6453" said:

> But looking at the elite specs we already have available and what is missing from engineer, I think there are 2 niches we need this elite spec to fill: conditions and support.

> And I think that preparations work a bit better in that case. With being a support spec, I think something that we can trigger any time ourselves is better for gameplay than **something that requires an enemy to walk over it.**

 

It's worth noting that Traps don't necessarily require an enemy to walk over them.

 

Healing Trap for instance, triggers only when an ally, whom is missing health, walks over it.

 

Also, I'm not sure about trying to hit 2 roles with a single E-Spec. Especially Support for Engie when Scrapper is pretty much entirely used in a support role.

 

Engie is missing just straight up Condi focused spec. In fact, outside of Firearms, Engie doesn't have a single spec that actually provides anything for Condi except the odd bit of Burn/Bleed in Holo. Tools really just provides Power with Static Discharge. Inventions is... lul. Explosives is Power(With most explosives also being Power based with only Shrapnel Grenade, Poison Grenade and Concussive Bomb providing Conditions). Alchemy is Boons/Support. Scrapper is Power/Support. Holo is Power.

 

If we're going with the idea of Chemical based Condi E-Spec, then you can still obtain your Chemical Support by using Alchemy as your 3rd spec (So Firearms/Alchemy/E-Spec) since it's not as if there are any mandatory options for that 3rd spot given the lack of Condi bonuses.

[Kodama.6453]

> @"Taril.8619" said:

> It's worth noting that Traps don't necessarily require an enemy to walk over them.

> Healing Trap for instance, triggers only when an ally, whom is missing health, walks over it.

 

That's a fair point, you are right that it is an exception here.

But one thing to consider: healing spring hasn't always been a trap. It got reworked into a trap when Anet made the big rework that put most existing utility skill in one of the skill types with some really rare exceptions and traps were just the most fitting category in ranger's arsenal.

 

Every other trap, even the healing skill trap from dragon hunters, triggers when enemies walk over them. But I get your point, they could make our traps trigger from allies as well.

 

> Also, I'm not sure about trying to hit 2 roles with a single E-Spec. Especially Support for Engie when Scrapper is pretty much entirely used in a support role.

 

Also true that the scrapper utility skills are pretty supportive. But the spec in general is not. An elite spec is more than just the utility skills, the traits also contribute and looking at the traits from scrapper, they are mostly absolutely selfish.

 

Scrapper is not a support class. It is mostly a bruiser with some supportive utility skills. The only reason why scrapper is used in support builds is because we don't have a truly supportive spec. Having supportive utility skills with traits which contribute absolutely nothing to the support playstyle is better than having nothing.

The added weapon (hammer) also doesn't give scrapper any value as a support. It gives CC, damage, and defense. But what exactly does hammer provide to buff your allies and support them?

 

Anet has designed elite specs with roughly 3 different roles so far: damage dealers, bruisers, supports

Holosmith is our damage dealer, scrapper is our bruiser. Yes, scrapper has some supportive features in some gyros (not all of them, mind you, shredder and blast gyro don't), but it isn't a true support.

 

Look at other support elite specs they have designed like scourge and tempest. They have supportive value baked in **every** part of their new tools, traits, utilities, and weapons. Not just one of them like scrapper (utility skills).

 

My point is: while scrapper has some supportive qualities, it isn't designed as a true support...

Which most likely is a result from the fact that scrapper as an entire elite spec was rushed and not really thought through. Anet just fixed the mess later, but they were stuck with the gyro skills, which were kinda bound to keep being supportive if they didn't want to design entirely new utility skills from scratch. But scrapper got reworked to fill the bruiser role, not support.

 

> Engie is missing just straight up Condi focused spec. In fact, outside of Firearms, Engie doesn't have a single spec that actually provides anything for Condi except the odd bit of Burn/Bleed in Holo. Tools really just provides Power with Static Discharge. Inventions is... lul. Explosives is Power(With most explosives also being Power based with only Shrapnel Grenade, Poison Grenade and Concussive Bomb providing Conditions). Alchemy is Boons/Support. Scrapper is Power/Support. Holo is Power.

>

> If we're going with the idea of Chemical based Condi E-Spec, then you can still obtain your Chemical Support by using Alchemy as your 3rd spec (So Firearms/Alchemy/E-Spec) since it's not as if there are any mandatory options for that 3rd spot given the lack of Condi bonuses.

 

Agreed that engineer needs something that makes it work better with condition based builds. But I still think the spec should also be designed as a support.

[Taril.8619]

> @"Kodama.6453" said:

> The only reason why scrapper is used in support builds is because we don't have a truly supportive spec. Having supportive utility skills with traits which contribute absolutely nothing to the support playstyle is better than having nothing.

 

The innate F5 of Scrapper literally has use for reviving allies. As well as being a Lightning field.

 

Then some of its traits buffs allies:

 

- **Gyroscopic Momentum** provides Superspeed to allies with your Wells and your F5

- **Mass Momentum** provides Stability to allies with your F5

- **Speed of Synergy** provides Superspeed to allies when you use a Blast finisher.

 

Not to mention things like System Shocker (Longer lasting Swiftness/Daze/Vulnerability), Expert Examination and Kinetic Stabilizers which provide supportative effects (Such as taking down breakbars and maintaining Vulnerability stacks - Which allows DPS to focus on dealing damage and even slot more damage focused utilities if they don't need to bring CC)

 

> @"Kodama.6453" said:

> The added weapon (hammer) also doesn't give scrapper any value as a support. It gives CC, damage, and defense. But what exactly does hammer provide to buff your allies and support them?

 

Whirl finishers, a Lightning Field and Proj Reflect. Also, CC is a supportive function.

 

That said, most Scrappers end up using Shield because of the added utility from Inventions (Protection and Cleanse on shield skill usage)

 

> @"Kodama.6453" said:

>Yes, scrapper has some supportive features in some gyros (shredder and blast gyro don't),

 

Whirl finisher and Blast finisher (Also Fire Field) respectively.

 

> @"Kodama.6453" said:

> Look at other support elite specs they have designed like scourge and tempest. They have supportive value baked in **every** part of their new tools, traits, utilities, and weapons. Not just one of them like scrapper (utility skills).

 

Scrapper is literally about using combo fields. That's its thing. Many combo field effects are supportive and is the reason why Scrapper is the primary support class in WvW because it can produce many AoE cleanses and AoE heals with Blast finishers inside Light and Water fields respectively (Which Scrapper can even provide themselves)

 

> @"Kodama.6453" said:

> My point is: while scrapper has some supportive qualities, it isn't designed as a true support...

 

It's a Bruiser/Support.

 

Just like how Scourge is Support/Condition. It's not a "True Support" since unlike Druid, many of its features are damage based (In fact, there are all of 2 traits in Scourge that provide direct support, Abrasive Grit and Desert Empowerment. The majority of its "Support" comes from spamming its F skills, which it does because they do damage too)

 

... Even then, it's damage sucks. Just like Scrapper does crap damage even with some of its traits being self damage boosts (Mass Momentum, Object in Motion, Applied Force

[Kodama.6453]

> @"Taril.8619" said:

> > @"Kodama.6453" said:

> > The only reason why scrapper is used in support builds is because we don't have a truly supportive spec. Having supportive utility skills with traits which contribute absolutely nothing to the support playstyle is better than having nothing.

>

> The innate F5 of Scrapper literally has use for reviving allies. As well as being a Lightning field.

>

> Then some of its traits buffs allies:

>

> - **Gyroscopic Momentum** provides Superspeed to allies with your Wells and your F5

> - **Mass Momentum** provides Stability to allies with your F5

> - **Speed of Synergy** provides Superspeed to allies when you use a Blast finisher.

>

> Not to mention things like System Shocker (Longer lasting Swiftness/Daze/Vulnerability), Expert Examination and Kinetic Stabilizers which provide supportative effects (Such as taking down breakbars and maintaining Vulnerability stacks - Which allows DPS to focus on dealing damage and even slot more damage focused utilities if they don't need to bring CC)

>

> > @"Kodama.6453" said:

> > The added weapon (hammer) also doesn't give scrapper any value as a support. It gives CC, damage, and defense. But what exactly does hammer provide to buff your allies and support them?

>

> Whirl finishers, a Lightning Field and Proj Reflect. Also, CC is a supportive function.

>

> That said, most Scrappers end up using Shield because of the added utility from Inventions (Protection and Cleanse on shield skill usage)

>

> > @"Kodama.6453" said:

> >Yes, scrapper has some supportive features in some gyros (shredder and blast gyro don't),

>

> Whirl finisher and Blast finisher (Also Fire Field) respectively.

>

> > @"Kodama.6453" said:

> > Look at other support elite specs they have designed like scourge and tempest. They have supportive value baked in **every** part of their new tools, traits, utilities, and weapons. Not just one of them like scrapper (utility skills).

>

> Scrapper is literally about using combo fields. That's its thing. Many combo field effects are supportive and is the reason why Scrapper is the primary support class in WvW because it can produce many AoE cleanses and AoE heals with Blast finishers inside Light and Water fields respectively (Which Scrapper can even provide themselves)

>

> > @"Kodama.6453" said:

> > My point is: while scrapper has some supportive qualities, it isn't designed as a true support...

>

> It's a Bruiser/Support.

>

> Just like how Scourge is Support/Condition. It's not a "True Support" since unlike Druid, many of its features are damage based (In fact, there are all of 2 traits in Scourge that provide direct support, Abrasive Grit and Desert Empowerment. The majority of its "Support" comes from spamming its F skills, which it does because they do damage too)

>

> ... Even then, it's damage sucks. Just like Scrapper does kitten damage even with some of its traits being self damage boosts (Mass Momentum, Object in Motion, Applied Force

 

I disagree with the premise that CC is considered supportive.

 

Taking an example from another class, thief. I think we can both agree that thief desperately needs a support elite spec, since thief can't play a support realistically?

With the premise that CC is considered supportive value, there is no need for a support thief elite spec? Since daredevil provides plenty of CC with it's utility skills.

 

And yes, scrapper can provide superspeed and (almost non existent) stability. Hence why I said "mostly" selfish. But this still doesn't really makes it a support. Holosmith can also share superspeed for an entire zerg for a really long duration, but that doesn't make holosmith a damage/support class.

 

Scrapper is about combo fields, yes, and that makes it valuable in WvW. But in the PvE environment, scrapper doesn't really work as a support.

In general, it seems that we have different definitions of what makes a "support" in this game.

 

In my opinion, a support spec in this game is someone who provides sustain in some form (may it be through healing, barrier, or other means) and boon sharing.

Scrapper can do some of this stuff, but is not focused on it like other support elite specs are. Tempest, scourge, druid, firebrand... these are true support elite specs in my eyes. Scrapper tries to do some stuff these can do, but is just not on the same level.

 

I can see where you are coming from, but I refuse to see scrapper as our support variant since it isn't able to compete with true support elite specs in a PvE environment.

[Taril.8619]

> @"Kodama.6453" said:

> I disagree with the premise that CC is considered supportive.

 

Is it dealing damage? Yes or no.

 

Do damage dealers look to stack on CC skills and utilities? Yes or no.

 

CC is a suportive function.

 

> @"Kodama.6453" said:

> Taking an example from another class, thief. I think we can both agree that thief desperately needs a support elite spec, since thief can't play a support realistically?

> With the premise that CC is considered supportive value, there is no need for a support thief elite spec? Since daredevil provides plenty of CC with it's utility skills.

 

CC on its own does not qualify enough for a fully fledged support build.

 

It however, does add to a support build that can bring some other support functions such as Healing/Barrier/Boonshare.

 

Just like how part of Scourge's "Support" is its ability to boon rip. Even if the capability to boon rip in of itself doesn't make a support build (Otherwise we wouldn't have gotten Scourge or Chrono as Core Necro and Mesmer can boon rip for days)

 

> @"Kodama.6453" said:

> Scrapper is about combo fields, yes, and that makes it valuable in WvW. But in the PvE environment, scrapper doesn't really work as a support.

 

And yet, the only high end PvE build for Scrapper is: [Heal Scrapper](https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/engineer/scrapper/heal/) which has a similar rating in raids as Scourge an E-Spec you acknowledge is support focused. (Both of which have better Boss Viability ratings than Heal Tempest

 

> @"Kodama.6453" said:

> In my opinion, a support spec in this game is someone who provides sustain in some form (may it be through healing, barrier, or other means) and boon sharing.

> Scrapper can do some of this stuff, but is not focused on it like other support elite specs are. Tempest, scourge, druid, firebrand... these are true support elite specs in my eyes. Scrapper tries to do some stuff these can do, but is just not on the same level.

>

> I can see where you are coming from, but I refuse to see scrapper as our support variant since it isn't able to compete with true support elite specs in a PvE environment.

 

Scrapper can provide a fair amount of sustain, due to being able to exploit Water fields for AoE healing and Healing Bolts. They can also share boons via Blast finishers in Fire/Lightning fields. They can also apply Auras via Blast finishers in Ethereal/Ice fields.

 

Scrapper is used entirely for support builds right now. There's no "Scrapper Tank" builds, like there are Chrono tanks. Scrapper OW builds are typically passed over for Holo.

 

So even though the primary aspect of the spec was to be the Bruiser, it has come out as Bruiser/Support.

 

As such, having a Condi/Support E-Spec is unecessary for Engie.

 

If anything, due to your dislike of the idea that Scrapper is support, we'd need to get a **SOLELY** Support focused spec, like Druid for Engie's "Support" E-Spec. Not another half baked hybrid Condi/Support (Which has worked out so well for Scourge... Useless for damage, outclassed in PvE support by Druid/Firebrand/Renegade/Chrono. Outclassed in WvW support by Scrapper. Outclassed in PvP support by Tempest/Symbolbrand)

 

[ledernierrempart.6871]

scrapper should have an extraordinary damage boost when covered in tons of boons. if i am right, scrapper can get 5% bonus damage per unique boon on him if he is under superspeed, stab or swiftness.

+ the +200 power under celerity.

 

my ieda of a potential futur engi spec.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/106448/engineer-new-profession-the-mad-scientist

 

the idea here is to use stance just like the soulbeast but instead of beast spirit theme it use inventions.

each invention is themed around each race. for example the charr themed stance would be a jetpack that let you slightly hover above ground (no true flying. jumping will act as a normal jump with some extra fire animation on your back) that may create a fire field on use or trigger some damage and give you swiftness or superspeed during the stance letting you move fast in any direction. (going backward has the same speed as going forward).

 

the whole spec i created is obviously not perfectly balanced and may feel a bit chaotic. but you ll get the idea.