Deconstructing Builds -- Checkers to Chess

[Game of Bones.8975]

The old method of plugging in random stuff to see what happens for me has been over for quite some time. I, like so many others, want to improve game playing skill so won't feel inadequate in Raids. . I don't have a problem obtaining gear; I have Ascended/Legendary weapons, armor, and trinkets to swap stats if needed. But all the best gear doesn't mean anything if you don't have the skills and know how to use them.

 

What I'm not comfortable with is choosing the best combination of skills, weapons, sigils/runes, and most of all the rotation of weapon/skill usage in combat. I've gone to dozens of YouTube vids, websites, and experts who tell me WHAT to do, but not WHY.

 

As a beginning player, I looked at the specializations and chose the ones that stacked the highest base damage of a solo player. I couldn't see that conditions would actually do more damage (over time) when used synchronized with another Utility. Or within a group, my skills could be more beneficial to them and I should get rid of that solo-player frame of mind.

 

I usually start with Snowcrows and Metabattle for builds/rotations others have put together. When it comes to the weapon selection/rotation of skills I try to determine how these skill chains are set up. For me there are too many things going on all at once that affect the final number we are looking for: damage.

 

How do players start with nothing, look at the available skills, and come up with the optimal combat rotation?

 

 

[Strider Pj.2193]

> @"Game of Bones.8975" said:

>

>

> How do players start with nothing, look at the available skills, and come up with the **optimal combat rotation**?

>

>

 

They don’t.

 

Other than trial and error without looking to

A: a guild to guide them

B: a trusted player that can mentor them

C: utilizing the videos and some logic skills.

 

 

 

[kharmin.7683]

Like you, I did my own experimenting early on. As a very casual open world player, most on-line guides really don't fit my play style. Recently, I have been taking suggested builds from Metabattle (I think that's the site?) -- the template code is very helpful! -- and then changing the build to suit. It does help me to better understand the intention behind the build as written on the site. I had never really had any luck with firebrand until I read the "how it plays" part and then it made more sense. Of course, I tweaked it after toying with it for a bit and now it is fun for me.

[KryTiKaL.3125]

> @"Game of Bones.8975" said:

> The old method of plugging in random stuff to see what happens for me has been over for quite some time. I, like so many others, want to improve game playing skill so won't feel inadequate in Raids. . I don't have a problem obtaining gear; I have Ascended/Legendary weapons, armor, and trinkets to swap stats if needed. But all the best gear doesn't mean anything if you don't have the skills and know how to use them.

>

> What I'm not comfortable with is choosing the best combination of skills, weapons, sigils/runes, and most of all the rotation of weapon/skill usage in combat. I've gone to dozens of YouTube vids, websites, and experts who tell me WHAT to do, but not WHY.

>

> As a beginning player, I looked at the specializations and chose the ones that stacked the highest base damage of a solo player. I couldn't see that conditions would actually do more damage (over time) when used synchronized with another Utility. Or within a group, my skills could be more beneficial to them and I should get rid of that solo-player frame of mind.

>

> I usually start with Snowcrows and Metabattle for builds/rotations others have put together. When it comes to the weapon selection/rotation of skills I try to determine how these skill chains are set up. For me there are too many things going on all at once that affect the final number we are looking for: damage.

>

> How do players start with nothing, look at the available skills, and come up with the optimal combat rotation?

>

>

 

Like Strider said, they don't. That isn't how "META" (Most Effective Tactic Available) is discovered. That goes for skill builds, stat setups, and skill rotations. People took the time, tested different combinations of things over and over again and against one another until they find what works genuinely the best. New players, who have no prior knowledge or understanding of the game or its mechanics, are not going to just somehow *magically* figure those things out. Especially not in a game that is already several years established.

 

Thats why the players that **do** test these things, that **do** spend the time and effort to construct builds and then guides on those builds offer them up to players to use in some capacity. Not only to help improve their gameplay, should they wish to do so, but to also help them learn for the future so that maybe they can start tweaking the build to either make it suit them better or to just try out a different variant and do some testing of their own. Everyone starts somewhere, using a guide or a meta build is a good starting point for any newer player, or older, who wants to try improving.

[Game of Bones.8975]

In terms of overall efficient game-play, how would you rank the three aspects of a character combat?

 

Equipment loadout, Build, and Rotation

[Strider Pj.2193]

> @"Game of Bones.8975" said:

> In terms of overall efficient game-play, how would you rank the three aspects of a character combat?

>

> Equipment loadout, Build, and Rotation

 

To me.., those priorities vary depending on area you are getting into (WvW, OW PvE, Raids etc)

 

For WvW (to me) it’s

E

B

R

 

 

[Game of Bones.8975]

> @"Strider Pj.2193" said:

 

> To me.., those priorities vary depending on area you are getting into (WvW, OW PvE, Raids etc)

>

> For WvW (to me) it’s

> E

> B

> R

>

>

 

That's the way it is for me, but it seems Rotation is what really ups your game.

[Strider Pj.2193]

> @"Game of Bones.8975" said:

> > @"Strider Pj.2193" said:

>

> > To me.., those priorities vary depending on area you are getting into (WvW, OW PvE, Raids etc)

> >

> > For WvW (to me) it’s

> > E

> > B

> > R

> >

> >

>

> That's the way it is for me, but it seems Rotation is what really ups your game.

 

Not really in WvW. Combinations maybe, but reacting to others... That’s the real thing for WvW.

[thehipone.6812]

> @"Game of Bones.8975" said:

> > @"Strider Pj.2193" said:

>

> > To me.., those priorities vary depending on area you are getting into (WvW, OW PvE, Raids etc)

> >

> > For WvW (to me) it’s

> > E

> > B

> > R

> >

> >

>

> That's the way it is for me, but it seems Rotation is what really ups your game.

 

Prioritizing them isn't really the right way to look at it IMO. They're inherently synergistic, and it is the synergy that helps you perform at top level if that is your goal, ie., you need all pieces. Looking at dps for the moment: Full on dps gear is the first "gate" in that it gives your build and rotation the opportunity to perform at highest level. The right build on top of the right gear is the next "gate" that ensures that the damage bonuses from the build are applied to the highest possible base damage and thus are producing maximum synergy. Finally, rotation is the third "gate" in that you are using the most damaging skills in the most efficient sequencing to maximize the benefits of the build-equipment synergy benefits from the first two "gates". Maybe a pyramid is a better visual, I don't know, but hopefully you get the idea.

 

As far as determining optimal rotations, it is just a (very) complicated math optimization problem. I don't do well with memorizing strict rotations, as rote memorization lacks the "why am I using this now" understanding. But a concept like prioritization makes more sense to me - i.e., you want to use your "best" skills as often as possible and under the best damage buffs available, subject to the constraints of cooldown, weapon swap, etc.

[mindcircus.1506]

> @"Game of Bones.8975" said:

> The old method of plugging in random stuff to see what happens for me has been over for quite some time. I, like so many others, want to improve game playing skill so won't feel inadequate in Raids. . I don't have a problem obtaining gear; I have Ascended/Legendary weapons, armor, and trinkets to swap stats if needed. But all the best gear doesn't mean anything if you don't have the skills and know how to use them.

While they aren't about Raids, Wooden Potatoes Open World Series and Bootts' Bad Builds do a really complete job of explaining the synergies they create on their builds. If you want to get a feel for a class I would start there.

Vallun does a really good job with this on his PvP builds and MightyTeapot's hard carry Scourge videos give a really good idea of why things work very well.

I would start by searching youtube for these four content creators.

While these aren't specifically end-game builds, I find these four content creators specifically have an incredible knowledge of the game's buildcraft and I learn something from their builds every time I watch the videos regardless of the purpose.

Bootts specifically, while he creates meme builds, has an amazing level of knowledge of this game's mechanics.

 

[Game of Bones.8975]

> @"thehipone.6812" said:

 

> As far as determining optimal rotations, it is just a (very) complicated math optimization problem. I don't do well with memorizing strict rotations, as rote memorization lacks the "why am I using this now" understanding. But a concept like prioritization makes more sense to me - i.e., you want to use your "best" skills as often as possible and under the best damage buffs available, subject to the constraints of cooldown, weapon swap, etc.

 

I don't feel so bad now.

I saw some of those rotations that had 8, 9, or 10+ skills to use in a specific order that I kept wondering how people used these in battle. But I guess it takes time lots and lots of time and practice.

 

I want to thank everyone for their input. It makes me feel much better. Everyone starts knowing nothing and ends up like me ... totally confused at some point.