Balance Patch: Sand Savant mistake?

[Crazy.6029]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> If you think about it, they probably did this to indirectly increase _Sand savant_'s value in sPvP/WvW by decreasing the minor trait's synergy/value for the other 2 GM traits since the CD increase it make it harder to maintain the little shades. It's rule #2 in GW2's balancing: "Don't touch broken things, try to tweak number around them, maybe it will fix them". (Rule #1 is: "Always leave a broken tooltip for the next patch note")

 

Its possible that you are right about that. Still doesn't make sand savant anymore desirable imo, just makes scourge weaker in spvp and wvw. I think most have moved on from scourge anyhow by now. It still functions, it just seems more niche for organized groups. Farewell Scourge, you had a good run as an optimal spec. RIP :'( /queue the bagpipes

[Mini Crinny.6190]

> @"Crazy.6029" said:

> > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > If you think about it, they probably did this to indirectly increase _Sand savant_'s value in sPvP/WvW by decreasing the minor trait's synergy/value for the other 2 GM traits since the CD increase it make it harder to maintain the little shades. It's rule #2 in GW2's balancing: "Don't touch broken things, try to tweak number around them, maybe it will fix them". (Rule #1 is: "Always leave a broken tooltip for the next patch note")

>

> Its possible that you are right about that. Still doesn't make sand savant anymore desirable imo, just makes scourge weaker in spvp and wvw. I think most have moved on from scourge anyhow by now. It still functions, it just seems more niche for organized groups. Farewell Scourge, you had a good run as an optimal spec. RIP :'( /queue the bagpipes

 

Sorry but I have to quote your signature

 

"Let's nerf everything, so that we don't need any skill to play.

The Truth sometimes hurts but it is good for you."

 

Seriousness though, Sand Savant is weird but I really just wanted to say that

[misterman.1530]

Hahahaha...

 

Players: No way Anet can mess up Scourges even more!

 

Anet: Hold my beer.

[jpsssss.7530]

The scourge is becoming an intelligence check...

[Galmac.4680]

You mean the whole specialization? But yes, indeed. At least in PvE we are strong ... oh, wait. :/

[Laila Lightness.8742]

Yeah scourge were already weak in wvw so why making it weaker, they should ad projectile reflect on shades. And sand savant have a 10 target instead of 3 and finally make scourge viable in wvw

[silent killer.5732]

> @"jpsssss.7530" said:

> The scourge is becoming an intelligence check...

 

How so

 

[Lahmia.2193]

I think this is a sign that Scourge Shades will get a revamp soon.

[misterman.1530]

> @"silent killer.5732" said:

> > @"jpsssss.7530" said:

> > The scourge is becoming an intelligence check...

>

> How so

>

 

Well, if we are speaking about WvW, Reapers are more effective in a zerg now and a lone roaming Scourge is a essentially an easy bag. I love facing a Scourge on my Core Necro. They really have no secondary health pool to speak off and barriers are weak.

 

[Anchoku.8142]

> @"Lahmia.2193" said:

> I think this is a sign that Scourge Shades will get a revamp soon.

 

I hope so. Rather than wrecking PvE builds because Scourge, Reaper and core stack well in WvW, I would rather Arenanet focus on either disabling or adjusting numbers in traits in competitive modes like they did with Scourge shades the last patch and removal of damage on control effects before that.

 

Replacing good traits with trash and making skills clunky or awkward to use is something I would like them to avoid.

[Laila Lightness.8742]

> @"Anchoku.8142" said:

> > @"Lahmia.2193" said:

> > I think this is a sign that Scourge Shades will get a revamp soon.

>

> I hope so. Rather than wrecking PvE builds because Scourge, Reaper and core stack well in WvW, I would rather Arenanet focus on either disabling or adjusting numbers in traits in competitive modes like they did with Scourge shades the last patch and removal of damage on control effects before that.

>

> Replacing good traits with trash and making skills clunky or awkward to use is something I would like them to avoid.

 

Were necro even good in wvw i thought they underperformed there

[Anchoku.8142]

> @"Laila Lightness.8742" said:

> > @"Anchoku.8142" said:

> > > @"Lahmia.2193" said:

> > > I think this is a sign that Scourge Shades will get a revamp soon.

> >

> > I hope so. Rather than wrecking PvE builds because Scourge, Reaper and core stack well in WvW, I would rather Arenanet focus on either disabling or adjusting numbers in traits in competitive modes like they did with Scourge shades the last patch and removal of damage on control effects before that.

> >

> > Replacing good traits with trash and making skills clunky or awkward to use is something I would like them to avoid.

>

> Were necro even good in wvw i thought they underperformed there

 

Necro was weak roaming but a key part of the WvW zerg meta from very early on. Staff + wells provided crucial AoE. However, Necromancers built for this purpose were easy to kill and had to always keep an eye on their position within the zerg and watch the flow. I became a bag quite frequently.

[misterman.1530]

> @"Anchoku.8142" said:

> > @"Laila Lightness.8742" said:

> > > @"Anchoku.8142" said:

> > > > @"Lahmia.2193" said:

> > > > I think this is a sign that Scourge Shades will get a revamp soon.

> > >

> > > I hope so. Rather than wrecking PvE builds because Scourge, Reaper and core stack well in WvW, I would rather Arenanet focus on either disabling or adjusting numbers in traits in competitive modes like they did with Scourge shades the last patch and removal of damage on control effects before that.

> > >

> > > Replacing good traits with trash and making skills clunky or awkward to use is something I would like them to avoid.

> >

> > Were necro even good in wvw i thought they underperformed there

>

> Necro was weak roaming but a key part of the WvW zerg meta from very early on. Staff + wells provided crucial AoE. However, Necromancers built for this purpose were easy to kill and had to always keep an eye on their position within the zerg and watch the flow. I became a bag quite frequently.

 

Exactly, but based on some PvP I've read about, I tried a Core Necro for roaming. I've yet to find a class it can't handle - don't get me wrong, I still die, but not as often as I down the other player (though, Dragon Hunters seem to give me no end of trouble. I lose to them more often than I win. But I'm getting better :) )

 

Anchoku is correct. Even in a zerg you had to stick close to the healers in your squad. Not get out of position. As well, necro's have a weak stab (with Well of Power), so if they aren't getting it from their squad, they are pulled all over the place.

 

But after this balance patch, I don't have a single Scourge build template or an equipment template specifically for Scourges. The elite is so broken, it's ridiculous.

[Anchoku.8142]

> @"misterman.1530" said:

> > @"Anchoku.8142" said:

> > > @"Laila Lightness.8742" said:

> > > > @"Anchoku.8142" said:

> > > > > @"Lahmia.2193" said:

> > > > > I think this is a sign that Scourge Shades will get a revamp soon.

> > > >

> > > > I hope so. Rather than wrecking PvE builds because Scourge, Reaper and core stack well in WvW, I would rather Arenanet focus on either disabling or adjusting numbers in traits in competitive modes like they did with Scourge shades the last patch and removal of damage on control effects before that.

> > > >

> > > > Replacing good traits with trash and making skills clunky or awkward to use is something I would like them to avoid.

> > >

> > > Were necro even good in wvw i thought they underperformed there

> >

> > Necro was weak roaming but a key part of the WvW zerg meta from very early on. Staff + wells provided crucial AoE. However, Necromancers built for this purpose were easy to kill and had to always keep an eye on their position within the zerg and watch the flow. I became a bag quite frequently.

>

> Exactly, but based on some PvP I've read about, I tried a Core Necro for roaming. I've yet to find a class it can't handle - don't get me wrong, I still die, but not as often as I down the other player (though, Dragon Hunters seem to give me no end of trouble. I lose to them more often than I win. But I'm getting better :) )

>

> Anchoku is correct. Even in a zerg you had to stick close to the healers in your squad. Not get out of position. As well, necro's have a weak stab (with Well of Power), so if they aren't getting it from their squad, they are pulled all over the place.

>

> But after this balance patch, I don't have a single Scourge build template or an equipment template specifically for Scourges. The elite is so broken, it's ridiculous.

 

It is easy to forget about nerfs to other professions. For example; Elementalist had a broken Ice Bow that concentrated damage on a backward dodge, iirc. The meta in 2012 was based on balance of the time. A lot has changed since and Necromancer's place has moved as much from other profession balance as its own changes.

 

Necro of 2012 felt very glassy to me even in Soldier's gear and it seemed only half-decent for spamming red circles in WvW. It had no stab if not from Well of Power, if memory serves. Signet of the Locust gave maybe 15% movement bonus, Plague Signet's passive was instant suicide, Putrid Mark dumped conditions from yourself and allies to a target, axe was utterly worthless in all game modes, wells could be targeted on yourself as a menue option, there was no Tainted Shackles, DS sucked and marks were tiny without traiting . Engi was worthless, Ranger was for AFK farming and trolling people in WvW, Necro minions were out of control and aggro'd whatever they felt like and Mesmer was a JP slave...

 

The point is, the number of changes Arenanet made over the years is astounding and cannot be underestimated. You are correct in that Scourge is bad right now but it will change even if it takes years and leaps between carp-space and OP several times.

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"Anchoku.8142" said:

> Necro of 2012 felt very glassy to me even in Soldier's gear and it seemed only half-decent for spamming red circles in WvW. It had no stab if not from Well of Power, if memory serves.

 

Pretty sure the only sources of stab were _plagueform_ and _lich form_. I seem to recall that _Well of power_ stab was added later because the skill was supposed to be a stunbreak yet had a cast time and it was counter productive so they added a few second of stab to help (something they did for similar skills on other professions). I'm not sure if the fear conversion to stab wasn't added later as well.

[misterman.1530]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"Anchoku.8142" said:

> > Necro of 2012 felt very glassy to me even in Soldier's gear and it seemed only half-decent for spamming red circles in WvW. It had no stab if not from Well of Power, if memory serves.

>

> Pretty sure the only sources of stab were _plagueform_ and _lich form_. I seem to recall that _Well of power_ stab was added later because the skill was supposed to be a stunbreak yet had a cast time and it was counter productive so they added a few second of stab to help (something they did for similar skills on other professions). I'm not sure if the fear conversion to stab wasn't added later as well.

 

Regarding Well of Power - the stab is for 1 second and, if you stand in the circle, you can get up to 5 seconds of stability since it pulses once every second for 5 seconds. The problem being you have to stand still for that long to get its full effect. Great when you are fighting a boss in PvE or even an NPC in WvW, but not so good fighting other players. If you stand still, you are normally dead. The skill has always been broken, and each "fix" was a bandaid that did little to make it useful in WvW.

 

[Anchoku.8142]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"Anchoku.8142" said:

> > Necro of 2012 felt very glassy to me even in Soldier's gear and it seemed only half-decent for spamming red circles in WvW. It had no stab if not from Well of Power, if memory serves.

>

> Pretty sure the only sources of stab were _plagueform_ and _lich form_. I seem to recall that _Well of power_ stab was added later because the skill was supposed to be a stunbreak yet had a cast time and it was counter productive so they added a few second of stab to help (something they did for similar skills on other professions). I'm not sure if the fear conversion to stab wasn't added later as well.

 

You are right, Lich and Plague Form had stab. For Well of Power, I thought Necro could get stability if it flipped a fear but I had forgotten about stability's changes, too. There was no Foot in the Grave. It only got to Necro because stun-locking was so easy, or something like that.

[Lahmia.2193]

> @"misterman.1530" said:

> > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > @"Anchoku.8142" said:

> > > Necro of 2012 felt very glassy to me even in Soldier's gear and it seemed only half-decent for spamming red circles in WvW. It had no stab if not from Well of Power, if memory serves.

> >

> > Pretty sure the only sources of stab were _plagueform_ and _lich form_. I seem to recall that _Well of power_ stab was added later because the skill was supposed to be a stunbreak yet had a cast time and it was counter productive so they added a few second of stab to help (something they did for similar skills on other professions). I'm not sure if the fear conversion to stab wasn't added later as well.

>

> Regarding Well of Power - the stab is for 1 second and, if you stand in the circle, you can get up to 5 seconds of stability since it pulses once every second for 5 seconds. The problem being you have to stand still for that long to get its full effect. Great when you are fighting a boss in PvE or even an NPC in WvW, but not so good fighting other players. If you stand still, you are normally dead. The skill has always been broken, and each "fix" was a bandaid that did little to make it useful in WvW.

>

 

There is no pulsing stab, only might. The stab is only on cast.

[misterman.1530]

> @"Lahmia.2193" said:

> > @"misterman.1530" said:

> > > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > > @"Anchoku.8142" said:

> > > > Necro of 2012 felt very glassy to me even in Soldier's gear and it seemed only half-decent for spamming red circles in WvW. It had no stab if not from Well of Power, if memory serves.

> > >

> > > Pretty sure the only sources of stab were _plagueform_ and _lich form_. I seem to recall that _Well of power_ stab was added later because the skill was supposed to be a stunbreak yet had a cast time and it was counter productive so they added a few second of stab to help (something they did for similar skills on other professions). I'm not sure if the fear conversion to stab wasn't added later as well.

> >

> > Regarding Well of Power - the stab is for 1 second and, if you stand in the circle, you can get up to 5 seconds of stability since it pulses once every second for 5 seconds. The problem being you have to stand still for that long to get its full effect. Great when you are fighting a boss in PvE or even an NPC in WvW, but not so good fighting other players. If you stand still, you are normally dead. The skill has always been broken, and each "fix" was a bandaid that did little to make it useful in WvW.

> >

>

> There is no pulsing stab, only might. The stab is only on cast.

 

Wow. That's even worse. A 1 sec stab? Lol. Oh, Anet...you so silly

 

[Dirame.8521]

It's a good choice if you want to activate the passive adept traits all in one go. Instead of having to raise up 3 shades whilst you are under attack.

[Galmac.4680]

But rising up 3 shades with all the cast time, your enemies are all on some other location far away. I want my old scourge back. sigh..

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"Dirame.8521" said:

> It's a good choice if you want to activate the passive adept traits all in one go. Instead of having to raise up 3 shades whilst you are under attack.

 

That's exactly this. This trait simply allow the scourge to benefit from the minor traits' effects without having to struggle with laying 3 shades. It's not that bad of an effect but it's hard to see it as a "grandmaster" effect (not that the other options are worth a GM slot either, thought).

[Galmac.4680]

So, will that sand savant be fixed? Or is ANet really serious with this change??

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"Galmac.4680" said:

> So, will that sand savant be fixed? Or is ANet really serious with this change??

 

Nobody can tell. The e-spec might very well change along the years but ANet seem to be set on this problematic design.

The irony of this e-spec is that it's designed like this to specifically control the overload of boons in WvW, yet it's in this gamemode that it's nerfed the hardest.

 

The reality is that the issue wasn't _sand savant_ but the very design of the shade mechanism. If shade skills had a cast time and didn't proc _manifest sand shade_ at release nobody would have complained about it. However, they released skills with the potential to overload other players with conditions in an instant, while dealing damage, removing boons, CCed and support allies on a wide area. All the damage that could be done to the image of the mechanism have been done, the mechanism is beyond redemption in most other profession's mind even if it end up nerfed to oblivion.

 

The necromancer's balance have been in a struggle since they decided to focus on boon corruption to make it "viable" and scourge is the peak of what they could do with boon corruption. It's sad because there is the need for boon hate in PvP/WvW, ANet has been very generous with boons along the years and there is a dire need for more counter to them. However, chosing boon corruption over boon ripping was definitely a mistake. And it's even truer since PvE have little use for this mechanism due to the _defiance_ mechanism.

 

Anet's balance choice make sense on the short term but not on the long term. The _sand savant_'s is a perfect example of that, making sense now but on the long term, this will just be remembered as a minor nerf of an OP mechanism that other profession still think need more nerfs because you see lot's of scourge in zerg (when objectively you'd continue to see scourge in zerg even if it didn't have the shade mechanism, the simple fact that it shred boons and provide barrier is enough to make it valuable there and it doesn't need the shade mechanism for that).

[Shiyo.3578]

> @"misterman.1530" said:

> So...the Scourge's Sand Savant, as a Grandmaster trait, hits the same number of targets as the smaller, non-traited shades? And has a longer recharge time? Other than the larger area (a whopping 120 radius), can someone explain why you would take this trait at all? Is it simply for the ever so slightly larger area?

>

> I mean, as a Grandmaster trait, it's a pretty sad one. In fact, without it, a Scourge can drop three shades quickly, cover an effectively larger area, and hit 2 targets per shade. It makes no sense at all to take Sand Savant.

>

> Where's the sense in it? Just remove it already or move it down to the Adept trait line.

 

Scourge's entire design makes no sense. Anet wants it to be a DPS and a healer, but also don't want it to be a DPS and a healer. It's entire design contradicts itself all over the place.

 

Scourge Fskills should do damage by default, and give no barrier besides F5.

 

Top row should make all your F skills give barriers to yourself and allies.

Middle row should make all your F skills deal a lot of power damage.

Bottom row should make all your F skills deal a lot of condi damage.

 

This would make Scourge an actual elite with options to choose how it wants to be played. It could play a support role, or a power role, but not both at once.

 

Instead what we have is some weird hybrid that sucks in all game modes besides WvW as a DPS and strike missions as a healer. It's just silly.

 

Take advantage of your trait system and ACTUALLY create a good class out of scourge ;/