NO Downstate should STAY permanently. - [Merged]

[ledernierrempart.6871]

> @"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said:

> > @"ledernierrempart.6871" said:

> > for example?

>

> Two Examples:

>

> First Example

> My most memorable fight i've ever had was a 1v8 on one of the alpine borderlands. At first the engagement began with an ally struggling against 2 other players, and he was in downstate. First what happened is that they both tried to stomp/cleave out this downstate ally of mine, and because they were both on his position, i expolited this oppurtunity to cleave them, and at the same time, rezzing my ally little by little. First enemy goes into downstate, the other enemy pulling back a bit. I cleave out the downstate, while rezzing my friend little by little. I kill him and my ally get's the rally. We are now both going after the other player, which happened to be some kind of condi bunker. The fight was now getting bigger, as another couple enemies showed up from spawn, and we had another ally. it was now a 5v3, and my other allies get downed out. But because of these downstates happening, i kept exploiting that oppurtunity to get big damage on the enemies who were cleaving out the downs. After my allies got axed to take the walk of shame back to our spawn on the other side of the map, i had created 3 downstates, and attempting to play some mind games with the other two players to get them to rez their allies. They took the bait of course and i ended up one by one taking them out. 3 more players show up, and in a constant cycle of playing chicken with their downstate allies, i was able to kill them all.

>

> This 1v8 was back when i was solo roaming on Reaper back before it was cool...back then damage was powercreep city, and a lot, so it was essentially not-viable at the time to run around as a lonely reaper because getting one shot was common. But i had tweaked my build to make sure i was ready for every single scenario so that even in the event where i might have gotten in trouble i could disengage. (Back then i ran Become the Snow Leopard)

>

> Second example

> So my 1v8 was on a Reaper, and was a testament to my audacity to solo roam on a spec that was not viable to see how good of a player i was. Before playing Reaper, i was a P/P Dash thief main, and pretty well-known as the one of the few that played the build back WAY before Deadeye came out.

>

> Now on P/P Dash, The ability to cleave out a player is almost non-existent. I found that the most pertinent issue i had was taking out players who i put into downstate. and then had to solve this issue, and i did so by capitalizing on my stomps rather than my cleaves. So what i did was used Impact Strike on my build to secure downstate stomps half of the time, and the other half i would use a Teleport stomp (Shadowstep Stomping) to secure them the other half of the time.

>

> What i would do on P/P dash sometimes, would be to keep a player bleeding if i win a 1v1 or something...and when their ally comes along, i usually get to free-cast my pistols on em' while they attempt a rez, and then with a steal into Impact Strike, i could take out the enemy in downstate (to end the bait) and put the other one into downstate, and finish off the fight, or bait again another unsuspecting player.

>

> This is just some of the ways I've exploited the existence of downstate in many many ways, and you can do this on pretty much any class.

 

so you won a 2v2 fight started as 1v2 then got in a 3v5 scenario? this is far from 1v8.

by the description you gave me about the fight it seems like the player you faced did not have a very high individual skill nor good decision making.

you lost time dealing with downstates. from what i understood it is a fight you would have totally destroyed without downstate.

so your argument of downstate helping outnumbnered fights isn't valid.

 

you second example show nothing of an 1v8.

you can't win a true 1v8. even 1v3 is nearly impossible in normal scenario without some noobs as opponents.

but you talk about it like it is a walk in the park.

 

there was some times when 1vX against small groups was possible because of OP gear that got nerfed afterwards.(like the rune that gave flat healing upon blocking. was OP on warriors when dealing with alot of foes.)

[Jilora.9524]

He is clearly the most skilled player of all time. He was outnumbered. They were a zerg that always rez before stomps according to some. He still somehow secured a kill against all odds.

[BeepBoopBop.5403]

> @"Jilora.9524" said:

> He is clearly the most skilled player of all time. He was outnumbered. They were a zerg that always rez before stomps according to some. He still somehow secured a kill against all odds.

 

Ya'll got no argument and fall back on bad trolling lol it's quite sad

[Dante.1508]

Just the tone the op makes is why i avoid these types of Guildwars 2 content.. "skilled and "bad" not a great way to think. Honestly trying to balance a pve game with pvp never ends well. Its not designed to be balanced.

[Jilora.9524]

> @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said:

> > @"Jilora.9524" said:

> > He is clearly the most skilled player of all time. He was outnumbered. They were a zerg that always rez before stomps according to some. He still somehow secured a kill against all odds.

>

> Ya'll got no argument and fall back on bad trolling lol it's quite sad

 

Lol. You cherry pick your arguments too. DS needs to go because no matter what all day im 1v4 and should be able to win those consistently. Obviously I'm kidding about that guys skill

[ledernierrempart.6871]

> @"Jilora.9524" said:

> > @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said:

> > > @"Jilora.9524" said:

> > > He is clearly the most skilled player of all time. He was outnumbered. They were a zerg that always rez before stomps according to some. He still somehow secured a kill against all odds.

> >

> > Ya'll got no argument and fall back on bad trolling lol it's quite sad

>

> Lol. You cherry pick your arguments too. DS needs to go because no matter what all day im 1v4 and should be able to win those consistently. Obviously I'm kidding about that guys skill

 

right now downstate is a mechanic that make it harder for outnumbered players to fight back and easier to bigger groups to survive.

it also permit some cheesy gameplay like a team of thieves reviving each other while stealthed, making any attempt at ganking them without the right number a nightmare.

1v1 against a power necro can also be a problem depending on your build. if you are squishy enough he will kill you even when downed forcing you to either use a stomp helper ability or outranging him and pewpew it to death.

condi druide are also a powerhouse when downed.

 

obviously this doesn't concern thieves as they will always have at least a blind or a stealth to free stomp. all thieves play with shadowstep anyway.

[BeepBoopBop.5403]

dOwnStaTe iS vErY gOoOd MecHanIc

 

gR8 iDeA

 

i AlSo pOst aNecDotaL cLiP

 

[BeepBoopBop.5403]

> @"Jilora.9524" said:

> > @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said:

> > > @"Jilora.9524" said:

> > > He is clearly the most skilled player of all time. He was outnumbered. They were a zerg that always rez before stomps according to some. He still somehow secured a kill against all odds.

> >

> > Ya'll got no argument and fall back on bad trolling lol it's quite sad

>

> Lol. You cherry pick your arguments too. DS needs to go because no matter what all day im 1v4 and should be able to win those consistently. Obviously I'm kidding about that guys skill

 

Because that's the context it matters the most in lmao. It's not about winning consistently, it's about asking the question: why the fuck does the game offer this handicap mechanic that groups with lesser numbers cannot use as well as larger numbers. Larger numbers already have the advantage right? Answer that for me

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

> @"ledernierrempart.6871" said:

> so you won a 2v2 fight started as 1v2 then got in a 3v5 scenario? this is far from 1v8.

 

It started out as a 2v2, then it turned into a 3v5, then a 1v8. Keep in mind that the majority of the time, i had allies that were either dead or in downstate, and that i had at least half of the enemy in downstate. Also i never broke combat.

 

This is just one example...you can pick it apart, say whatever you want, but i do this all the time (well "did"...because i don't really play this game anymore so haven't really logged in months).

 

1v8 is the most i've ever done. but i win my 2v1's occasionally, and once in a blue moon 3v1 or more.

 

> you second example show nothing of an 1v8.

Who said my second example is a 1v8? I'm giving you examples of how you can use downstate, both allied and enemy downstate, to be used to your advantage.

 

 

> but you talk about it like it is a walk in the park.

 

Once you learn a lot of stuff like kiting, yes fighting outnumbered becomes a walk in the park.

 

> there was some times when 1vX against small groups was possible because of OP gear that got nerfed afterwards.(like the rune that gave flat healing upon blocking. was OP on warriors when dealing with alot of foes.)

 

And how is this relevant at all? My guy i've played in almost every single scenario you can think of...I've fought and played with players who are 100x better than me, and everyone else in this game...you think it's not possible to win outnumbered fights unless you have some broken mechanic? These guys would laugh at this statement because they know that fighting 1vX is a skill that takes mastering downstate manipulation and a variety of other factors... not just "OP GEAR" lol.

 

[Jilora.9524]

> @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said:

> > @"Jilora.9524" said:

> > > @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said:

> > > > @"Jilora.9524" said:

> > > > He is clearly the most skilled player of all time. He was outnumbered. They were a zerg that always rez before stomps according to some. He still somehow secured a kill against all odds.

> > >

> > > Ya'll got no argument and fall back on bad trolling lol it's quite sad

> >

> > Lol. You cherry pick your arguments too. DS needs to go because no matter what all day im 1v4 and should be able to win those consistently. Obviously I'm kidding about that guys skill

>

> Because that's the context it matters the most in lmao. It's not about winning consistently, it's about asking the question: why the kitten does the game offer this handicap mechanic that groups with lesser numbers cannot use as well as larger numbers. Larger numbers already have the advantage right? Answer that for me

 

Yes larger numbers always do. Stop always being the lesser numbers. You just love it. Playing thief must be so fun on no ds week but just for the thief. You think players happy they get jumped from stealth w 3 dudes close to them and nothing nobody can do then you reset and kill another and another. Then you like look at me I just won 1 v 4. No you won 4 1 v 1 fights. I win 1 v 3 sometimes just spectral grasp spin to win on no ds. Am I skilled no. It's too easy no ds week then you also die to dumb af stuff. Not you of course but I do cause you forget. You think that guy in video that got mini engied with his zerg wasn't screaming at his monitor and that's with ds.

[Shroud.2307]

Killing faster does not mean playing better. Succeeding outnumbered does not prove skill. Failing does not mean weakness.

[Jilora.9524]

> @"ledernierrempart.6871" said:

> > @"Jilora.9524" said:

> > > @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said:

> > > > @"Jilora.9524" said:

> > > > He is clearly the most skilled player of all time. He was outnumbered. They were a zerg that always rez before stomps according to some. He still somehow secured a kill against all odds.

> > >

> > > Ya'll got no argument and fall back on bad trolling lol it's quite sad

> >

> > Lol. You cherry pick your arguments too. DS needs to go because no matter what all day im 1v4 and should be able to win those consistently. Obviously I'm kidding about that guys skill

>

> right now downstate is a mechanic that make it harder for outnumbered players to fight back and easier to bigger groups to survive.

> it also permit some cheesy gameplay like a team of thieves reviving each other while stealthed, making any attempt at ganking them without the right number a nightmare.

> 1v1 against a power necro can also be a problem depending on your build. if you are squishy enough he will kill you even when downed forcing you to either use a stomp helper ability or outranging him and pewpew it to death.

> condi druide are also a powerhouse when downed.

>

> obviously this doesn't concern thieves as they will always have at least a blind or a stealth to free stomp. all thieves play with shadowstep anyway.

 

Everything is supposed to be harder if you outnumbered. It don't get much easier with no ds except for the cheese classes and guild groups that go 80 percent support or the stealth bombs on no ds or the hunt rangers on mag must have fun and you know beepbeep loves it. I never seen these pack of thiefs tho ressing each other but that would be so fun I wouldn't log off or nothing

[BeepBoopBop.5403]

> @"Jilora.9524" said:

> > @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said:

> > > @"Jilora.9524" said:

> > > > @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said:

> > > > > @"Jilora.9524" said:

> > > > > He is clearly the most skilled player of all time. He was outnumbered. They were a zerg that always rez before stomps according to some. He still somehow secured a kill against all odds.

> > > >

> > > > Ya'll got no argument and fall back on bad trolling lol it's quite sad

> > >

> > > Lol. You cherry pick your arguments too. DS needs to go because no matter what all day im 1v4 and should be able to win those consistently. Obviously I'm kidding about that guys skill

> >

> > Because that's the context it matters the most in lmao. It's not about winning consistently, it's about asking the question: why the kitten does the game offer this handicap mechanic that groups with lesser numbers cannot use as well as larger numbers. Larger numbers already have the advantage right? Answer that for me

>

> Yes larger numbers always do. Stop always being the lesser numbers. You just love it. Playing thief must be so fun on no ds week but just for the thief. You think players happy they get jumped from stealth w 3 dudes close to them and nothing nobody can do then you reset and kill another and another. Then you like look at me I just won 1 v 4. No you won 4 1 v 1 fights. I win 1 v 3 sometimes just spectral grasp spin to win on no ds. Am I skilled no. It's too easy no ds week then you also die to dumb af stuff. Not you of course but I do cause you forget. You think that guy in video that got mini engied with his zerg wasn't screaming at his monitor and that's with ds.

 

Does the zerg care about my happiness when they run me over? Is that skilled? Lol I'm pretty over taking you seriously.

 

So what you're saying is you WANT to get mechanic abused by lesser skilled players that let their HP deplete to 0. I mean, if you hate yourself go for it, leave the rest of us out of it.

 

PS. I'd love to roam on power revenant, but since February patch everything other than thief is just inefficient as fuck.

[Jilora.9524]

> @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said:

> dOwnStaTe iS vErY gOoOd MecHanIc

>

> gR8 iDeA

>

> i AlSo pOst aNecDotaL cLiP

>

>

 

Is that you? Yeah you killed one. They got zero chance to kill you. Like it proves no ds sucks for you but come on how fun is it for them? You stealth jump across the map come back then down one and they rez the him etc. No fun fighting a thief. They even mounted once but you sucked them back in I do appreciate the Benny hill music but all their participation drops to zero fighting you.

[BeepBoopBop.5403]

> @"Jilora.9524" said:

> > @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said:

> > dOwnStaTe iS vErY gOoOd MecHanIc

> >

> > gR8 iDeA

> >

> > i AlSo pOst aNecDotaL cLiP

> >

> >

>

> Is that you? Yeah you killed one. They got zero chance to kill you. Like it proves no ds sucks for you but come on how fun is it for them? You stealth jump across the map come back then down one and they rez the him etc. No fun fighting a thief. They even mounted once but you sucked them back in I do appreciate the Benny hill music but all their participation drops to zero fighting you.

 

You must be blind because there's literally 2 perma stealth thieves in there lol. Yet I am still the one playing ez mode thief or something. Ah well nice trollin buddy you get your down state its all ok

[Jilora.9524]

> @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said:

> > @"Jilora.9524" said:

> > > @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said:

> > > > @"Jilora.9524" said:

> > > > > @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said:

> > > > > > @"Jilora.9524" said:

> > > > > > He is clearly the most skilled player of all time. He was outnumbered. They were a zerg that always rez before stomps according to some. He still somehow secured a kill against all odds.

> > > > >

> > > > > Ya'll got no argument and fall back on bad trolling lol it's quite sad

> > > >

> > > > Lol. You cherry pick your arguments too. DS needs to go because no matter what all day im 1v4 and should be able to win those consistently. Obviously I'm kidding about that guys skill

> > >

> > > Because that's the context it matters the most in lmao. It's not about winning consistently, it's about asking the question: why the kitten does the game offer this handicap mechanic that groups with lesser numbers cannot use as well as larger numbers. Larger numbers already have the advantage right? Answer that for me

> >

> > Yes larger numbers always do. Stop always being the lesser numbers. You just love it. Playing thief must be so fun on no ds week but just for the thief. You think players happy they get jumped from stealth w 3 dudes close to them and nothing nobody can do then you reset and kill another and another. Then you like look at me I just won 1 v 4. No you won 4 1 v 1 fights. I win 1 v 3 sometimes just spectral grasp spin to win on no ds. Am I skilled no. It's too easy no ds week then you also die to dumb af stuff. Not you of course but I do cause you forget. You think that guy in video that got mini engied with his zerg wasn't screaming at his monitor and that's with ds.

>

> Does the zerg care about my happiness when they run me over? Is that skilled? Lol I'm pretty over taking you seriously.

>

> So what you're saying is you WANT to get mechanic abused by lesser skilled players that let their HP deplete to 0. If mean, if you hate yourself go for it, leave the rest of us out of it.

>

> PS. I'd love to roam on power revenant, but since February patch everything other than thief is just inefficient as kitten.

 

No but lets be honest that's the only time most decent thiefs have a chance to die. I have to deal with zergs too but I don't have the stealth luxury or mobility so I have to cloud and position to survive. But with no ds others would have huge advantages in small scale. You all just want to remove ds with no other changes like that would solve anything. And that's why I argue for it. It's too much a part of the game to just remove it.

[Jilora.9524]

> @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said:

> > @"Jilora.9524" said:

> > > @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said:

> > > dOwnStaTe iS vErY gOoOd MecHanIc

> > >

> > > gR8 iDeA

> > >

> > > i AlSo pOst aNecDotaL cLiP

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Is that you? Yeah you killed one. They got zero chance to kill you. Like it proves no ds sucks for you but come on how fun is it for them? You stealth jump across the map come back then down one and they rez the him etc. No fun fighting a thief. They even mounted once but you sucked them back in I do appreciate the Benny hill music but all their participation drops to zero fighting you.

>

> You must be blind because there's literally 2 perma stealth thieves in there lol. Yet I am still the one playing ez mode thief or something. Ah well nice trollin buddy you get your down state its all ok

 

Yeah and that you being more skilled. It ain't fun to fight a thieve as a thief either i'm sure. I'm not trying to troll. I just watched and didn't zoom in saw 1 teef a necro and the guard you killed and the thief you downed. I blame your issues on pulling too many drakes tho. You were like 1 v 7 if you add them

[Jilora.9524]

> @"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:

> Killing faster does not mean playing better. Succeeding outnumbered does not prove skill. Failing does not mean weakness.

 

Thank you Sun Tzu

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said:

> No idea what that clip proves.

And round and round and round we go. Also love the claim that its "wasting the most valuable cooldown" when my build literally have 0 reliable stab and there is a 30+ man zerg coming back up the kitten.

 

No wonder some people cant secure stomps. Oh no I have to waste my cooldowns! *How shall I ever fight?*

[Naxos.2503]

To be honest, all it is, is people dont want to diversify builds to account for downstate, and rely on an "all damage" build which frankly simplify the entire scene. Then they argument downstate allows a dumbing down of WvW because it is a crutch to less skilled players. So they want it removed, to *dumb it down* for "skilled" players using simple builds.

[BeepBoopBop.5403]

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said:

> > No idea what that clip proves.

> And round and round and round we go. Also love the claim that its "wasting the most valuable cooldown" when my build literally have 0 reliable stab and there is a 30+ man zerg coming back up the kitten.

>

> No wonder some people cant secure stomps. Oh no I have to waste my cooldowns! *How shall I ever fight?*

 

Right because that's what I meant. Bad trolling yawn.

 

Having to use your most valuable defensive CD for an offensive play, or else everything you just did is null and void, is a major disadvantage. Idk what to tell you lol you can deflect all you want, that's how it is. Post a clip of people actually resurrecting and trying to save the guy next time maybe? These days you'll likely encounter stealth on the down with all the minstrel engis running around. This is not pre February patch where cleaving downs was a viable answer for many builds.

 

Watching it again it looks like there was a scrapper that dropped rez gyro on him lol. Would've gotten it too without random pew pew coming from the wall. I guess if you're real lucky and the stars align, the zerg ignores you, your pug does exactly what you want, you have the perfect CDs ready, down state is kinda balanced I guess?

[Suraci.1642]

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said:

> > No idea what that clip proves.

> And round and round and round we go. Also love the claim that its "wasting the most valuable cooldown" when my build literally have 0 reliable stab and there is a 30+ man zerg coming back up the kitten.

>

> No wonder some people cant secure stomps. Oh no I have to waste my cooldowns! *How shall I ever fight?*

 

Yes, you are wasting your most valuable cooldown, Elixir S is your only stunbreak, real zerg would stun lock and pull/immo you to death, I dont know how good EU zergs are, but in the video it seems EU is not even easy mode, its baby mode.

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"Suraci.1642" said:

> Yes, you are wasting your most valuable cooldown, Elixir S is your only stunbreak, real zerg would stun lock and pull/immo you to death

So to avoid that occuring since the real zerg would inevitably stun me midstomp and gotten the downed up in that time, I should have used... oh I dont know... **elixir s**?

 

*Why didnt I think of that?!*

[BeepBoopBop.5403]

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > @"Suraci.1642" said:

> > Yes, you are wasting your most valuable cooldown, Elixir S is your only stunbreak, real zerg would stun lock and pull/immo you to death

> So to avoid that occuring since the real zerg would inevitably stun me midstomp and gotten the downed up in that time, I should have used... oh I dont know... **elixir s**?

>

> *Why didnt I think of that?!*

 

I think he's talking about after the stomp lol...typically a stomp attempt like that would get that engi killed right after. Also, one stealth on the down is all it would have taken to make that engi to look really silly...then without this one extremely convenient and atypical clip what would you have...

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said:

> > @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > > @"Suraci.1642" said:

> > > Yes, you are wasting your most valuable cooldown, Elixir S is your only stunbreak, real zerg would stun lock and pull/immo you to death

> > So to avoid that occuring since the real zerg would inevitably stun me midstomp and gotten the downed up in that time, I should have used... oh I dont know... **elixir s**?

> >

> > *Why didnt I think of that?!*

>

> I think he's talking about after the stomp lol...typically a stomp attempt like that would get that engi killed right after. Also, one stealth on the down is all it would have taken to make that engi to look really silly...then without this one extremely convenient and atypical clip what would you have...

Acceptable risks to secure a stomp - we just needed to wear them down one by one to eventually get enough of an advantage to watch them fall like dominos because they either lost all their dps or they lost all their guards. If thats one of our gyros and not the enemy, even better with redundancy. Yeah they could have stealthed. But zerglings will be zerglings.

 

But hey start posting clips of people ressing in zergs to show us how awful it is, everyone is free to do it.

 

Of course, its not really going to be ressing which win the fight, its the cleanses, permastab, million boons and reflects that make clouders unable to even dent the "real zerg" and in the zerg vs zerg pushes, its going to be rally that does most if not all of the work. So the clips will probably look very convienient.