Ayrilana.1396 Posted August 19, 2020 Share Posted August 19, 2020 > @"jwhite.7012" said: > > What tickets? They’re solely contained with the skirmish reward track. If you meant pips the new player would maybe at most be short by one towards the second half of doing WvW over someone who was more active. > > My apologies, not tickets, the 3000 badges of honor required. You would need 150 skirmish chests to obtain 3K badges. You. An easily obtain that many over a matter of weeks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwhite.7012 Posted August 19, 2020 Author Share Posted August 19, 2020 > I suggest that you do a raid training and see just how long it takes a group of new players to beat a boss. And don't be snide. I've already stated that I simply do not enjoy raiding in GW2. I've tried it, multiple times. I simply do not enjoy it. Can i do it? Yes, and I have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayrilana.1396 Posted August 19, 2020 Share Posted August 19, 2020 > @"jwhite.7012" said: > > I suggest that you do a raid training and see just how long it takes a group of new players to beat a boss. > > And don't be snide. I've already stated that I simply do not enjoy raiding in GW2. I've tried it, multiple times. I simply do not enjoy it. Can i do it? Yes, and I have. It was not meant as being snide. It just seems that you have little personal experience in this matter and you’re saying things that don’t make sense. If you did raid trainings, or possibly started to raid in a effort to obtain your first set, you would see how things truly are for a new player starting out raids. There’s obviously nothing I, nor anyone else, can really say to convince you otherwise so that’s why personal experience would hopefully get you to come around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwhite.7012 Posted August 19, 2020 Author Share Posted August 19, 2020 > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > @"jwhite.7012" said: > > > I suggest that you do a raid training and see just how long it takes a group of new players to beat a boss. > > > > And don't be snide. I've already stated that I simply do not enjoy raiding in GW2. I've tried it, multiple times. I simply do not enjoy it. Can i do it? Yes, and I have. > > It was not meant as being snide. It just seems that you have little personal experience in this matter and you’re saying things that don’t make sense. If you did raid trainings, or possibly started to raid in a effort to obtain your first set, you would see how things truly are for a new player starting out raids. There’s obviously nothing I, nor anyone else, can really say to convince you otherwise so that’s why personal experience would hopefully get you to come around. Do you WvW for 18+ hours /week? Do you play 200+ games in pvp every season? I've already said I'm in the Raid training group, I've ran multiple raids (up to w4) with my old guild. It took us a week to learn up to w4. That was 12 of us with 2 alternates. 2 hours every night. I just didn't enjoy them. Just as some have suggested that I half-afk sPvP or flip a camp every 10 minutes- it's just not an enjoyable experience. I have respecced my ascended gear upwards of 20+ times, and honestly its just annoying at this point to have to go out and refarm up my spirit shards every time a WvW meta changes. I've crafted 7 sets, 2 legendaries, and have an entire bank filled with ascended weapons. All I want is the functionality of the legendary armor for WvW so swapping and adjusting are "reasonable". You've neglected valid points, and your final solution is "go raid train some more". Yea, your twisted mentality is specifically why I do not enjoy raiding in GW2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayrilana.1396 Posted August 19, 2020 Share Posted August 19, 2020 > @"jwhite.7012" said: > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > @"jwhite.7012" said: > > > > I suggest that you do a raid training and see just how long it takes a group of new players to beat a boss. > > > > > > And don't be snide. I've already stated that I simply do not enjoy raiding in GW2. I've tried it, multiple times. I simply do not enjoy it. Can i do it? Yes, and I have. > > > > It was not meant as being snide. It just seems that you have little personal experience in this matter and you’re saying things that don’t make sense. If you did raid trainings, or possibly started to raid in a effort to obtain your first set, you would see how things truly are for a new player starting out raids. There’s obviously nothing I, nor anyone else, can really say to convince you otherwise so that’s why personal experience would hopefully get you to come around. > > Do you WvW for 18+ hours /week? Average between 9-13 hours depending on how much effort I put to be on a map with the outmanned buff. I’ve obtained a full set of WvW legendary armor and the ring. > Do you play 200+ games in pvp every season? I don’t which is why my comments regarding it have been low compared to WvW and sPvP. > I've already said I'm in the Raid training group, I've ran multiple raids (up to w4) with my old guild. It took us a week to learn up to w4. That was 12 of us with 2 alternates. 2 hours every night. I just didn't enjoy them. How many new players to raids have a guild that they run with so that they play with the same players. When doing calculations on how long it would typically take, it’s best to make the calculations along the same line as what it would be for the average new player. > Just as some have suggested that I half-afk sPvP or flip a camp every 10 minutes- it's just not an enjoyable experience. I have respecced my ascended gear upwards of 20+ times, and honestly its just annoying at this point to have to go out and refarm up my spirit shards every time a WvW meta changes. I've crafted 7 sets, 2 legendaries, and have an entire bank filled with ascended weapons. All I want is the functionality of the legendary armor for WvW so swapping and adjusting are "reasonable". > I used to do WvW many years ago and disliked my experience farming the pips. I might go back just to have the backpack skin but it’s just not fun anymore. When I did it, I just used my PvE build as I really wasn’t doing zerg stuff all that often. > You've neglected valid points, and your final solution is "go raid train some more". Yea, your twisted mentality is specifically why I do not enjoy raiding in GW2. I disagreed with your points as they didn’t make much sense to what a player new to raids would experience. The whole “join a raid training” wasn’t for you to go get actual raid experience per say but to go through the actual experience that a new player would. You would see how often a group may spend hours and not even beat a raid boss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaogin.2679 Posted August 19, 2020 Share Posted August 19, 2020 > @"jwhite.7012" said: > Legendary armor should be obtainable across all three methods with the same time restrictions. > PvE - 6 weeks (3-4 hours /week) > PvP - 3 seasons of 8x3x8 (just to get the tickets) - (hundreds of hours to amass the ascended shards of glory) minmum of 19 weeks, but likely longer since it requires the additional repeatable chests. > WvW - Minimum of 22 weeks > > Even after reaching the time-gates, you still have to tack on all the mats that need to be farmed. Increase the sPvP ascended shards of glory collection rates. Increase the WvW Skirmish claim tickets - at least to the point where it's relatively the same time frame as going the PvE route. No. And the simple reason is, getting legendary armor through PvP or WvW requires no challenge whatsoever, just time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paradoxoglanis.1904 Posted August 19, 2020 Share Posted August 19, 2020 > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > > > Why does this argument always turn into a debate of afk farming and buying your way through content? If you actually play the game like a normal person it takes much less time to get the pve gear. But by all means if you want to argue that flipping camps for 500 hours is an easy way to get legendary armor then try it out yourself. Personally I would find raiding a couple times a week to be far easier. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Typically only raiders are able to do full raid clears and it’s not something a random player can expect to do. If they do go the raid route, you have to account for all of the time it takes for them to gain experience on how to do each raid encounter. > > > > > > > > I would expect that someone trying to get pve legendary armor would become a raider though. Just like its not recommended to play wvw entirely solo just flipping objectives, its not really recommended to do raids casually in pugs. Raids become much easier with a guild, both in learning the fights and then efficiently farming them. > > > > > > Yes they would probably eventually become a raider but there’s still time spent getting to the point that they can participated in experiences clear group. Some may get lucky and join a guild’s clear group who will carry them as they learn and eventually pull their weight. However, sPvP and WvW do not require this “learning period” as you can jump right in earning your time-gated rewards are the same rate you would if you were a veteran in that game mode. > > > > I dont think anyone is questioning the time spent learning raids. And besides, most new pvp and wvw players arent able to play nearly 400 games a season or finish the skirmish reward track every week. If its a question of obtaining legendary armor as someone who is dedicated to the gamemode, pve is far quicker. If you then assume the player is a veteran of the gamemode, pve is even faster. > > It’s not about whether people are questioning the time but them ignoring it completely. Getting armor through raids is quicker only if they’re already an established raider. Someone brand new is not going to immediately be off doing full clears. They’re going to have to spend time learning the mechanics for all of the fights as well as their rotation(s). This learning phase makes it take much longer to obtain legendary armor than from the other modes. Again I have to disagree that the time spent learning raids is a significant factor when comparing the total time. Many raid bosses are very simple for beginners with a decent understanding of their class, so right from the start they are earning a fair number of LI. It might not be the weekly cap but its still significant. As for wvw and pvp if we are assuming someone is brand new then its very unlikely they are going to spend 20 hours a week in wvw or play 400 games a pvp season, so all three methods have their initial barrier to start earning materials. The main factor is the time gating. Pve is 6/12+ weeks, wvw is 22+ weeks, pvp is 3+ seasons. You can get all 3 sets semi afk if you want, but that is completely beside the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayrilana.1396 Posted August 19, 2020 Share Posted August 19, 2020 > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > > > > Why does this argument always turn into a debate of afk farming and buying your way through content? If you actually play the game like a normal person it takes much less time to get the pve gear. But by all means if you want to argue that flipping camps for 500 hours is an easy way to get legendary armor then try it out yourself. Personally I would find raiding a couple times a week to be far easier. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Typically only raiders are able to do full raid clears and it’s not something a random player can expect to do. If they do go the raid route, you have to account for all of the time it takes for them to gain experience on how to do each raid encounter. > > > > > > > > > > I would expect that someone trying to get pve legendary armor would become a raider though. Just like its not recommended to play wvw entirely solo just flipping objectives, its not really recommended to do raids casually in pugs. Raids become much easier with a guild, both in learning the fights and then efficiently farming them. > > > > > > > > Yes they would probably eventually become a raider but there’s still time spent getting to the point that they can participated in experiences clear group. Some may get lucky and join a guild’s clear group who will carry them as they learn and eventually pull their weight. However, sPvP and WvW do not require this “learning period” as you can jump right in earning your time-gated rewards are the same rate you would if you were a veteran in that game mode. > > > > > > I dont think anyone is questioning the time spent learning raids. And besides, most new pvp and wvw players arent able to play nearly 400 games a season or finish the skirmish reward track every week. If its a question of obtaining legendary armor as someone who is dedicated to the gamemode, pve is far quicker. If you then assume the player is a veteran of the gamemode, pve is even faster. > > > > It’s not about whether people are questioning the time but them ignoring it completely. Getting armor through raids is quicker only if they’re already an established raider. Someone brand new is not going to immediately be off doing full clears. They’re going to have to spend time learning the mechanics for all of the fights as well as their rotation(s). This learning phase makes it take much longer to obtain legendary armor than from the other modes. > > Again I have to disagree that the time spent learning raids is a significant factor when comparing the total time. Many raid bosses are very simple for beginners with a decent understanding of their class, so right from the start they are earning a fair number of LI. It might not be the weekly cap but its still significant. If that were true then we wouldn't have gotten thread with players asking for an easy mode. There would also be swarms of new players lining up to do raids. > As for wvw and pvp if we are assuming someone is brand new then its very unlikely they are going to spend 20 hours a week in wvw or play 400 games a pvp season, so all three methods have their initial barrier to start earning materials. The same thing can be said about raids too in regards to the first part. As for the second part, I disagree. Neither sPvP nor WvW have any initial barriers before earning the pips. > The main factor is the time gating. Pve is 6/12+ weeks, wvw is 22+ weeks, pvp is 3+ seasons. You can get all 3 sets semi afk if you want, but that is completely beside the point. Have you gone and learned raids as a new player would and then done them as a new player would? Have you acquired 150 LI? Have you played WvW for 22 weeks and obtained the tickets for the precursor armor and legendary components? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted August 20, 2020 Share Posted August 20, 2020 > @"jwhite.7012" said: > Legendary armor should be obtainable across all three methods with the same time restrictions. This doesn't make sense ... there is no way to make legendary armor 'equitably' obtainable across all game modes for all players ... it's dependent on the player. It's even debatable that it SHOULD be obtainable with the same time restrictions ... you simply don't explain why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zok.4956 Posted August 20, 2020 Share Posted August 20, 2020 > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > > > > Why does this argument always turn into a debate of afk farming and buying your way through content? If you actually play the game like a normal person it takes much less time to get the pve gear. But by all means if you want to argue that flipping camps for 500 hours is an easy way to get legendary armor then try it out yourself. Personally I would find raiding a couple times a week to be far easier. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Typically only raiders are able to do full raid clears and it’s not something a random player can expect to do. If they do go the raid route, you have to account for all of the time it takes for them to gain experience on how to do each raid encounter. > > > > > > > > > > I would expect that someone trying to get pve legendary armor would become a raider though. Just like its not recommended to play wvw entirely solo just flipping objectives, its not really recommended to do raids casually in pugs. Raids become much easier with a guild, both in learning the fights and then efficiently farming them. > > > > > > > > Yes they would probably eventually become a raider but there’s still time spent getting to the point that they can participated in experiences clear group. Some may get lucky and join a guild’s clear group who will carry them as they learn and eventually pull their weight. However, sPvP and WvW do not require this “learning period” as you can jump right in earning your time-gated rewards are the same rate you would if you were a veteran in that game mode. > > > > > > I dont think anyone is questioning the time spent learning raids. And besides, most new pvp and wvw players arent able to play nearly 400 games a season or finish the skirmish reward track every week. If its a question of obtaining legendary armor as someone who is dedicated to the gamemode, pve is far quicker. If you then assume the player is a veteran of the gamemode, pve is even faster. > > > > It’s not about whether people are questioning the time but them ignoring it completely. Getting armor through raids is quicker only if they’re already an established raider. Someone brand new is not going to immediately be off doing full clears. They’re going to have to spend time learning the mechanics for all of the fights as well as their rotation(s). This learning phase makes it take much longer to obtain legendary armor than from the other modes. > > Again I have to disagree that the time spent learning raids is a significant factor when comparing the total time. Many raid bosses are very simple for beginners with a decent understanding of their class, so right from the start they are earning a fair number of LI. It might not be the weekly cap but its still significant. I have to disagree. When my guild started raiding back in the days we also started to collect Provisioner Tokens (you need 300 for a full set of legendary raid armor) and most of us had more than enough Provisioner Tokens before we could clear W1 completely and regularly (we tried no other wings at that time). It makes a big difference if 9 players are experienced raiders and you are the only unexperienced, or if 10 players are high skilled and already doing fractals 99cm regularly and are only new to raids or if players (the whole raid group) are on a much lower skill level. fact is: some of the players that do/did raids have enough tokens and LI but still not have all the required achievements for the legendary raid armor collections. because some parts of the collections require some skill and you just can not semi-AFK those achievements. Yes, of course. some higher skilled and experienced players could laugh about this low-skills, but its still a skill-barrier for the legendary raid armor. No such skill is required for the WVW legendary armor. just time is required. > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > As for wvw and pvp if we are assuming someone is brand new then its very unlikely they are going to spend 20 hours a week in wvw or play 400 games a pvp season, so all three methods have their initial barrier to start earning materials. You could (if you want) start with day one in WvW to spend all your time in WvW to earn tickets/pips/etc. > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: >The main factor is the time gating. Pve is 6/12+ weeks, wvw is 22+ weeks, pvp is 3+ seasons. You can get all 3 sets semi afk if you want, but that is completely beside the point. The time gating for the first set of raid legendary armor is only a main factor if you start raiding now and you already are an experienced and skilled player (in fractals etc) or/and you come into an experienced raid group. You can not semi-afk your way through all the raid-achievements for the legendary raid armor. The time gating for the first set of WvW legendary raid armor is only a main factor if you start fresh with WvW or if you did not collect all the WvW tickets/currency already by-the-way when you played WvW before. The time gating and the requirements for the additional legendary sets are quite different for raids and WvW. I would say the time gating for experienced players for the next set (after you got your first set) in WvW is much higher than in raids. In my opinion only the time gating for additional legendary WvW sets should be lowered. I have not played PvP for a long time. So I would really like to know, how you can semi-AFK your way to the legendary PvP armor. This is not a trick question. I really like to know this. thanks. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zok.4956 Posted August 20, 2020 Share Posted August 20, 2020 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"jwhite.7012" said: > > Legendary armor should be obtainable across all three methods with the same time restrictions. > > This doesn't make sense ... there is no way to make legendary armor 'equitably' obtainable across all game modes for all players ... it's dependent on the player. It's even debatable that it SHOULD be obtainable with the same time restrictions ... you simply don't explain why. agreed. I do understand that players that do not play the three modes "raid/WvW/PvP" also want a way to get legendary armor. And because WvW has no skill requirment and no group requirement this looks like the preferred way and because of that players want the time gating for the WvW legendary armor lowered. its understandable. But I think a better way would be to introduce a 4th set of legendary armor for players outside of the modes "raid/WvW/PvP". With this, the prestige status of the skins of the modes continue to exist but also all players of all modes could have the chance to get some version of legendary armor also as a convenience item (stat/infusion/etc swapping and the legendary armory). P.S. Yes, I know, raids are part of the PvE-mode. But they are quite different than the rest of the non-instanced PvE and the legendary armor was made for raids. So I just also call raids a mode for better differentiation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted August 20, 2020 Share Posted August 20, 2020 > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > > > > Why does this argument always turn into a debate of afk farming and buying your way through content? If you actually play the game like a normal person it takes much less time to get the pve gear. But by all means if you want to argue that flipping camps for 500 hours is an easy way to get legendary armor then try it out yourself. Personally I would find raiding a couple times a week to be far easier. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Typically only raiders are able to do full raid clears and it’s not something a random player can expect to do. If they do go the raid route, you have to account for all of the time it takes for them to gain experience on how to do each raid encounter. > > > > > > > > > > I would expect that someone trying to get pve legendary armor would become a raider though. Just like its not recommended to play wvw entirely solo just flipping objectives, its not really recommended to do raids casually in pugs. Raids become much easier with a guild, both in learning the fights and then efficiently farming them. > > > > > > > > Yes they would probably eventually become a raider but there’s still time spent getting to the point that they can participated in experiences clear group. Some may get lucky and join a guild’s clear group who will carry them as they learn and eventually pull their weight. However, sPvP and WvW do not require this “learning period” as you can jump right in earning your time-gated rewards are the same rate you would if you were a veteran in that game mode. > > > > > > I dont think anyone is questioning the time spent learning raids. And besides, most new pvp and wvw players arent able to play nearly 400 games a season or finish the skirmish reward track every week. If its a question of obtaining legendary armor as someone who is dedicated to the gamemode, pve is far quicker. If you then assume the player is a veteran of the gamemode, pve is even faster. > > > > It’s not about whether people are questioning the time but them ignoring it completely. Getting armor through raids is quicker only if they’re already an established raider. Someone brand new is not going to immediately be off doing full clears. They’re going to have to spend time learning the mechanics for all of the fights as well as their rotation(s). This learning phase makes it take much longer to obtain legendary armor than from the other modes. > > Again I have to disagree that the time spent learning raids is a significant factor when comparing the total time. Many raid bosses are very simple for beginners with a decent understanding of their class, so right from the start they are earning a fair number of LI. It might not be the weekly cap but its still significant. As for wvw and pvp if we are assuming someone is brand new then its very unlikely they are going to spend 20 hours a week in wvw or play 400 games a pvp season, so all three methods have their initial barrier to start earning materials. The main factor is the time gating. Pve is 6/12+ weeks, wvw is 22+ weeks, pvp is 3+ seasons. You can get all 3 sets semi afk if you want, but that is completely beside the point. Ahm no. Please don't compare 6-9 experienced raiders carrying, I'm sorry: "teaching", 1-4 new players with actual raid progression. Most players take a significant time to learn to do raids, especially bosses which require dedicated roles. This goes double for W5-7. I have been a part of and/or have gotten to know groups of players who actually "recently" got experience on many bosses, 1 group end of last year, the other early last year. Both groups took a significant time to master fights, especially the first few kills were the longest until a basic raid understanding and approach was developed, again: these players started from scratch. The moment you are not at the weekly cap, you are also not at 12 weeks per legendary armor. If you "only" drop the weekly cap from 25 LI/LD to say 20 (let's say skipping Wing 5 and Qadim 2). You are already at minimum 15 weeks for an armor. If you drop the LI/LD per week to W1-4 only, you are at 20 weeks per armor. All the while having failure states for PvE, and group/squad management. Any person who has ever managed a raid squad or guild or regular trainings for an extended period of time, knows that you need to constantly fill up your roster, and occasionally retrain new players. None of this is present in WvW or PvP, where the only failure state is not putting in enough time. Thus the acquisition methods are rather balanced. The "fastest" one has rather hefty failure states and requires actually cooperation. The other 2 just need you to show up and thus take longer. I'd call that pretty much balanced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icetea.3204 Posted August 20, 2020 Share Posted August 20, 2020 > @"jwhite.7012" said: > > @"blambidy.3216" said: > > > @"jwhite.7012" said: > > > > @"blambidy.3216" said: > > > > Highly disagree. Only because even though you dont spend much time compared to pvp and wvw however not many people can even put in the effort in pve legendary armor compared to pvp and wvw. With all do respect to people who do have legendary pvp and wvw armor. All they truly have to do is participate vs in pve you actually have to kill 150 raid kills + get certain bosses and doing tasks. Even though it tech isn’t hard to do for legendary pve armor, it is harder to majority of the player base in gw2. Therefore the people who put more effort in get a less time gate. > > > > > > Except for the fact that you can literally just buy your way through the PvE gear. So no, hardly would consider the effort equal. > > > > I wonder if you know how expensive a kill is. The price does go higher and lower depending on the boss however let’s say it’s 400 gold per boss. 400 x 150 = 60,000 gold. Depending on the fluctuations of gem to gold conversion that’s pretty steep for just the first set. However that’s a flat rate. And most likely carrying someone through the heart achievements would most likely cost more since it would cost more time since 2 of the heart achievements the player can not die even if the boss is killed. However that’s just the first set. The second and third set is 300 LI for 1 set. So it’s 120,000 gold for the second and third set. Total if the person bought all 3 sets 400 x 750 = 300,000 gold. That’s some massive cheddar for a video game. > > However I don’t sell and I never bought. All I know is the gold does fluctuate higher or lower depending on the bosses. So it could be higher or lower then this assumption depending on the seller. > > I've PM'd three guilds who were "selling clears" in LFG over the past week. They were the only three I saw in game for the time that I was active, and I was told that for the most part it was 30-50g /wing. There were three bosses that had their own additional fee, and they said it varies every week. Even if you only did 10 bosses every week. That is still only 15 weeks to get fully geared (once). Which is still cheaper and faster than any other method currently available. I'd be very interested to hear what guilds would sell you a full wing for 30g to 50g. No sell guild worth their salt will sell you a full wing for less than 10g per player. There's is one that might do or from time to time, but definitely not always and definitely not 3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paradoxoglanis.1904 Posted August 20, 2020 Share Posted August 20, 2020 > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > > > > > Why does this argument always turn into a debate of afk farming and buying your way through content? If you actually play the game like a normal person it takes much less time to get the pve gear. But by all means if you want to argue that flipping camps for 500 hours is an easy way to get legendary armor then try it out yourself. Personally I would find raiding a couple times a week to be far easier. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Typically only raiders are able to do full raid clears and it’s not something a random player can expect to do. If they do go the raid route, you have to account for all of the time it takes for them to gain experience on how to do each raid encounter. > > > > > > > > > > > > I would expect that someone trying to get pve legendary armor would become a raider though. Just like its not recommended to play wvw entirely solo just flipping objectives, its not really recommended to do raids casually in pugs. Raids become much easier with a guild, both in learning the fights and then efficiently farming them. > > > > > > > > > > Yes they would probably eventually become a raider but there’s still time spent getting to the point that they can participated in experiences clear group. Some may get lucky and join a guild’s clear group who will carry them as they learn and eventually pull their weight. However, sPvP and WvW do not require this “learning period” as you can jump right in earning your time-gated rewards are the same rate you would if you were a veteran in that game mode. > > > > > > > > I dont think anyone is questioning the time spent learning raids. And besides, most new pvp and wvw players arent able to play nearly 400 games a season or finish the skirmish reward track every week. If its a question of obtaining legendary armor as someone who is dedicated to the gamemode, pve is far quicker. If you then assume the player is a veteran of the gamemode, pve is even faster. > > > > > > It’s not about whether people are questioning the time but them ignoring it completely. Getting armor through raids is quicker only if they’re already an established raider. Someone brand new is not going to immediately be off doing full clears. They’re going to have to spend time learning the mechanics for all of the fights as well as their rotation(s). This learning phase makes it take much longer to obtain legendary armor than from the other modes. > > > > Again I have to disagree that the time spent learning raids is a significant factor when comparing the total time. Many raid bosses are very simple for beginners with a decent understanding of their class, so right from the start they are earning a fair number of LI. It might not be the weekly cap but its still significant. As for wvw and pvp if we are assuming someone is brand new then its very unlikely they are going to spend 20 hours a week in wvw or play 400 games a pvp season, so all three methods have their initial barrier to start earning materials. The main factor is the time gating. Pve is 6/12+ weeks, wvw is 22+ weeks, pvp is 3+ seasons. You can get all 3 sets semi afk if you want, but that is completely beside the point. > > Ahm no. > > Please don't compare 6-9 experienced raiders carrying, I'm sorry: "teaching", 1-4 new players with actual raid progression. Most players take a significant time to learn to do raids, especially bosses which require dedicated roles. This goes double for W5-7. I have been a part of and/or have gotten to know groups of players who actually "recently" got experience on many bosses, 1 group end of last year, the other early last year. Both groups took a significant time to master fights, especially the first few kills were the longest until a basic raid understanding and approach was developed, again: these players started from scratch. > > The moment you are not at the weekly cap, you are also not at 12 weeks per legendary armor. If you "only" drop the weekly cap from 25 LI/LD to say 20 (let's say skipping Wing 5 and Qadim 2). You are already at minimum 15 weeks for an armor. If you drop the LI/LD per week to W1-4 only, you are at 20 weeks per armor. > > All the while having failure states for PvE, and group/squad management. Any person who has ever managed a raid squad or guild or regular trainings for an extended period of time, knows that you need to constantly fill up your roster, and occasionally retrain new players. None of this is present in WvW or PvP, where the only failure state is not putting in enough time. > > Thus the acquisition methods are rather balanced. The "fastest" one has rather hefty failure states and requires actually cooperation. The other 2 just need you to show up and thus take longer. I'd call that pretty much balanced. New players can get pve legendary armor in a minimum of 6 weeks with 150 LI. If you are making your second or third set you should be experienced enough to get close to the weekly cap without too much trouble. Im not sure how else to say this. You can cheese the system and farm legendary armor in all 3 modes by playing semi afk. You can buy your way through raids, you can find a guild to carry you, you can flip camps in wvw, you can afk and throw pvp matches, whatever. This is besides the point. In all three modes the average new player probably wont hit the weekly/seasonal cap. Most dedicated players will probably get close, the main factor is time gating. If I need to give an example, look at wvw. It takes roughly 20 hours each week to finish the skirmish reward track. Im assuming that most people dedicated to the gamemode play in a guild, and that is a lot of time for an organized group to commit to every week. Its rare to even find a guild that plays that much, and even rarer to find one that keeps up that pace for nearly half a year. The argument that "you can just play solo and farm afk" Is often just telling people to play in a way that doesnt interest them. I could say the same thing to pve raiders, "if your guild doesnt hit the weekly LI cap, then just join some pugs or join/buy a clear with another guild". Some people hate small scale fighting and roaming just as much as some people hate pugging. The fact that pugging raids might be more challenging doesnt change the fact that in both cases its up to the individual person to decide whether or not its worth putting up with something they dislike to get rewards. The effort involved in actively playing the different gamemodes is roughly the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted August 20, 2020 Share Posted August 20, 2020 > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > > > > > > Why does this argument always turn into a debate of afk farming and buying your way through content? If you actually play the game like a normal person it takes much less time to get the pve gear. But by all means if you want to argue that flipping camps for 500 hours is an easy way to get legendary armor then try it out yourself. Personally I would find raiding a couple times a week to be far easier. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Typically only raiders are able to do full raid clears and it’s not something a random player can expect to do. If they do go the raid route, you have to account for all of the time it takes for them to gain experience on how to do each raid encounter. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would expect that someone trying to get pve legendary armor would become a raider though. Just like its not recommended to play wvw entirely solo just flipping objectives, its not really recommended to do raids casually in pugs. Raids become much easier with a guild, both in learning the fights and then efficiently farming them. > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes they would probably eventually become a raider but there’s still time spent getting to the point that they can participated in experiences clear group. Some may get lucky and join a guild’s clear group who will carry them as they learn and eventually pull their weight. However, sPvP and WvW do not require this “learning period” as you can jump right in earning your time-gated rewards are the same rate you would if you were a veteran in that game mode. > > > > > > > > > > I dont think anyone is questioning the time spent learning raids. And besides, most new pvp and wvw players arent able to play nearly 400 games a season or finish the skirmish reward track every week. If its a question of obtaining legendary armor as someone who is dedicated to the gamemode, pve is far quicker. If you then assume the player is a veteran of the gamemode, pve is even faster. > > > > > > > > It’s not about whether people are questioning the time but them ignoring it completely. Getting armor through raids is quicker only if they’re already an established raider. Someone brand new is not going to immediately be off doing full clears. They’re going to have to spend time learning the mechanics for all of the fights as well as their rotation(s). This learning phase makes it take much longer to obtain legendary armor than from the other modes. > > > > > > Again I have to disagree that the time spent learning raids is a significant factor when comparing the total time. Many raid bosses are very simple for beginners with a decent understanding of their class, so right from the start they are earning a fair number of LI. It might not be the weekly cap but its still significant. As for wvw and pvp if we are assuming someone is brand new then its very unlikely they are going to spend 20 hours a week in wvw or play 400 games a pvp season, so all three methods have their initial barrier to start earning materials. The main factor is the time gating. Pve is 6/12+ weeks, wvw is 22+ weeks, pvp is 3+ seasons. You can get all 3 sets semi afk if you want, but that is completely beside the point. > > > > Ahm no. > > > > Please don't compare 6-9 experienced raiders carrying, I'm sorry: "teaching", 1-4 new players with actual raid progression. Most players take a significant time to learn to do raids, especially bosses which require dedicated roles. This goes double for W5-7. I have been a part of and/or have gotten to know groups of players who actually "recently" got experience on many bosses, 1 group end of last year, the other early last year. Both groups took a significant time to master fights, especially the first few kills were the longest until a basic raid understanding and approach was developed, again: these players started from scratch. > > > > The moment you are not at the weekly cap, you are also not at 12 weeks per legendary armor. If you "only" drop the weekly cap from 25 LI/LD to say 20 (let's say skipping Wing 5 and Qadim 2). You are already at minimum 15 weeks for an armor. If you drop the LI/LD per week to W1-4 only, you are at 20 weeks per armor. > > > > All the while having failure states for PvE, and group/squad management. Any person who has ever managed a raid squad or guild or regular trainings for an extended period of time, knows that you need to constantly fill up your roster, and occasionally retrain new players. None of this is present in WvW or PvP, where the only failure state is not putting in enough time. > > > > Thus the acquisition methods are rather balanced. The "fastest" one has rather hefty failure states and requires actually cooperation. The other 2 just need you to show up and thus take longer. I'd call that pretty much balanced. > > New players can get pve legendary armor in a minimum of 6 weeks with 150 LI. If you are making your second or third set you should be experienced enough to get close to the weekly cap without too much trouble. Im not sure how else to say this. You can cheese the system and farm legendary armor in all 3 modes by playing semi afk. You can buy your way through raids, you can find a guild to carry you, you can flip camps in wvw, you can afk and throw pvp matches, whatever. This is besides the point. In all three modes the average new player probably wont hit the weekly/seasonal cap. Most dedicated players will probably get close, the main factor is time gating. > No. I have to disagree here. I know a lot of players who have even completed their 3 armors. Most of them are no where near clearing all 7 wings weekly, or even within 3-4 hours. If you are lacking experience or exposure to more casual raiders, then that is something you might want to look into. In fact I'd make a claim that most raiders do not full clear weekly beyond W1-4, and definitely not wing 5 or all 7 wings. > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > If I need to give an example, look at wvw. It takes roughly 20 hours each week to finish the skirmish reward track. Im assuming that most people dedicated to the gamemode play in a guild, and that is a lot of time for an organized group to commit to every week. Its rare to even find a guild that plays that much, and even rarer to find one that keeps up that pace for nearly half a year. The argument that "you can just play solo and farm afk" Is often just telling people to play in a way that doesnt interest them. I could say the same thing to pve raiders, "if your guild doesnt hit the weekly LI cap, then just join some pugs or join/buy a clear with another guild". There is a vast difference between just afk flipping a camp and raid clearing content. Sorry but this is bs. > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > Some people hate small scale fighting and roaming just as much as some people hate pugging. The fact that pugging raids might be more challenging doesnt change the fact that in both cases its up to the individual person to decide whether or not its worth putting up with something they dislike to get rewards. The effort involved in actively playing the different gamemodes is roughly the same. Well we will have to disagree then. You are vastly misrepresenting how difficult it is for players to clear raids. I could link to the hundreds of pages of threads on this issue in the fractal, dungeon and rais forum, but let's keep it simple and just disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paradoxoglanis.1904 Posted August 20, 2020 Share Posted August 20, 2020 > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > > > > > > > Why does this argument always turn into a debate of afk farming and buying your way through content? If you actually play the game like a normal person it takes much less time to get the pve gear. But by all means if you want to argue that flipping camps for 500 hours is an easy way to get legendary armor then try it out yourself. Personally I would find raiding a couple times a week to be far easier. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Typically only raiders are able to do full raid clears and it’s not something a random player can expect to do. If they do go the raid route, you have to account for all of the time it takes for them to gain experience on how to do each raid encounter. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would expect that someone trying to get pve legendary armor would become a raider though. Just like its not recommended to play wvw entirely solo just flipping objectives, its not really recommended to do raids casually in pugs. Raids become much easier with a guild, both in learning the fights and then efficiently farming them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes they would probably eventually become a raider but there’s still time spent getting to the point that they can participated in experiences clear group. Some may get lucky and join a guild’s clear group who will carry them as they learn and eventually pull their weight. However, sPvP and WvW do not require this “learning period” as you can jump right in earning your time-gated rewards are the same rate you would if you were a veteran in that game mode. > > > > > > > > > > > > I dont think anyone is questioning the time spent learning raids. And besides, most new pvp and wvw players arent able to play nearly 400 games a season or finish the skirmish reward track every week. If its a question of obtaining legendary armor as someone who is dedicated to the gamemode, pve is far quicker. If you then assume the player is a veteran of the gamemode, pve is even faster. > > > > > > > > > > It’s not about whether people are questioning the time but them ignoring it completely. Getting armor through raids is quicker only if they’re already an established raider. Someone brand new is not going to immediately be off doing full clears. They’re going to have to spend time learning the mechanics for all of the fights as well as their rotation(s). This learning phase makes it take much longer to obtain legendary armor than from the other modes. > > > > > > > > Again I have to disagree that the time spent learning raids is a significant factor when comparing the total time. Many raid bosses are very simple for beginners with a decent understanding of their class, so right from the start they are earning a fair number of LI. It might not be the weekly cap but its still significant. As for wvw and pvp if we are assuming someone is brand new then its very unlikely they are going to spend 20 hours a week in wvw or play 400 games a pvp season, so all three methods have their initial barrier to start earning materials. The main factor is the time gating. Pve is 6/12+ weeks, wvw is 22+ weeks, pvp is 3+ seasons. You can get all 3 sets semi afk if you want, but that is completely beside the point. > > > > > > Ahm no. > > > > > > Please don't compare 6-9 experienced raiders carrying, I'm sorry: "teaching", 1-4 new players with actual raid progression. Most players take a significant time to learn to do raids, especially bosses which require dedicated roles. This goes double for W5-7. I have been a part of and/or have gotten to know groups of players who actually "recently" got experience on many bosses, 1 group end of last year, the other early last year. Both groups took a significant time to master fights, especially the first few kills were the longest until a basic raid understanding and approach was developed, again: these players started from scratch. > > > > > > The moment you are not at the weekly cap, you are also not at 12 weeks per legendary armor. If you "only" drop the weekly cap from 25 LI/LD to say 20 (let's say skipping Wing 5 and Qadim 2). You are already at minimum 15 weeks for an armor. If you drop the LI/LD per week to W1-4 only, you are at 20 weeks per armor. > > > > > > All the while having failure states for PvE, and group/squad management. Any person who has ever managed a raid squad or guild or regular trainings for an extended period of time, knows that you need to constantly fill up your roster, and occasionally retrain new players. None of this is present in WvW or PvP, where the only failure state is not putting in enough time. > > > > > > Thus the acquisition methods are rather balanced. The "fastest" one has rather hefty failure states and requires actually cooperation. The other 2 just need you to show up and thus take longer. I'd call that pretty much balanced. > > > > New players can get pve legendary armor in a minimum of 6 weeks with 150 LI. If you are making your second or third set you should be experienced enough to get close to the weekly cap without too much trouble. Im not sure how else to say this. You can cheese the system and farm legendary armor in all 3 modes by playing semi afk. You can buy your way through raids, you can find a guild to carry you, you can flip camps in wvw, you can afk and throw pvp matches, whatever. This is besides the point. In all three modes the average new player probably wont hit the weekly/seasonal cap. Most dedicated players will probably get close, the main factor is time gating. > > > > No. I have to disagree here. I know a lot of players who have even completed their 3 armors. Most of them are no where near clearing all 7 wings weekly, or even within 3-4 hours. If you are lacking experience or exposure to more casual raiders, then that is something you might want to look into. In fact I'd make a claim that most raiders do not full clear weekly beyond W1-4, and definitely not wing 5 or all 7 wings. > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > If I need to give an example, look at wvw. It takes roughly 20 hours each week to finish the skirmish reward track. Im assuming that most people dedicated to the gamemode play in a guild, and that is a lot of time for an organized group to commit to every week. Its rare to even find a guild that plays that much, and even rarer to find one that keeps up that pace for nearly half a year. The argument that "you can just play solo and farm afk" Is often just telling people to play in a way that doesnt interest them. I could say the same thing to pve raiders, "if your guild doesnt hit the weekly LI cap, then just join some pugs or join/buy a clear with another guild". > > There is a vast difference between just afk flipping a camp and raid clearing content. Sorry but this is bs. > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > Some people hate small scale fighting and roaming just as much as some people hate pugging. The fact that pugging raids might be more challenging doesnt change the fact that in both cases its up to the individual person to decide whether or not its worth putting up with something they dislike to get rewards. The effort involved in actively playing the different gamemodes is roughly the same. > > Well we will have to disagree then. You are vastly misrepresenting how difficult it is for players to clear raids. I could link to the hundreds of pages of threads on this issue in the fractal, dungeon and rais forum, but let's keep it simple and just disagree. And I have known players who are very average skill-wise yet still get the maximum LI each week. This just the same argument of "wvw and pvp takes no skill so it should take longer". Legendaries have never been about skill. They have always been long term rewards for dedicated players. So once again I need to clarify that im not trying to argue about the theoretical effort it takes. There are "effortless" ways and challenging ways to get all 3 sets of armor. There will always be some people who afk farm in wvw, or bot/throw pvp games. If you argue that this is the reason why it should take longer to get legendary gear you are claiming that in game rewards should be balanced around people who are griefing or breaking tos. For hardcore players, time gating is undeniably the most limiting factor. Obviously casual players arent going to cap out on LI each week, just like how casual players arent going to finish the skirmish track every week or play 400 ranked games a season. So in most cases time gating is still the most limiting factor and it can even be more punishing for casual wvw and pvp players since they will rarely earn the final track chests which reward the most materials. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeikeNz.3526 Posted August 20, 2020 Share Posted August 20, 2020 the guys who are against it are the raid players that are against new players on raids, anet need to think serious about it, who are killing their game. -arcdps -some raid players -bots Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zok.4956 Posted August 20, 2020 Share Posted August 20, 2020 > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > > > > > > Why does this argument always turn into a debate of afk farming and buying your way through content? If you actually play the game like a normal person it takes much less time to get the pve gear. But by all means if you want to argue that flipping camps for 500 hours is an easy way to get legendary armor then try it out yourself. Personally I would find raiding a couple times a week to be far easier. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Typically only raiders are able to do full raid clears and it’s not something a random player can expect to do. If they do go the raid route, you have to account for all of the time it takes for them to gain experience on how to do each raid encounter. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would expect that someone trying to get pve legendary armor would become a raider though. Just like its not recommended to play wvw entirely solo just flipping objectives, its not really recommended to do raids casually in pugs. Raids become much easier with a guild, both in learning the fights and then efficiently farming them. > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes they would probably eventually become a raider but there’s still time spent getting to the point that they can participated in experiences clear group. Some may get lucky and join a guild’s clear group who will carry them as they learn and eventually pull their weight. However, sPvP and WvW do not require this “learning period” as you can jump right in earning your time-gated rewards are the same rate you would if you were a veteran in that game mode. > > > > > > > > > > I dont think anyone is questioning the time spent learning raids. And besides, most new pvp and wvw players arent able to play nearly 400 games a season or finish the skirmish reward track every week. If its a question of obtaining legendary armor as someone who is dedicated to the gamemode, pve is far quicker. If you then assume the player is a veteran of the gamemode, pve is even faster. > > > > > > > > It’s not about whether people are questioning the time but them ignoring it completely. Getting armor through raids is quicker only if they’re already an established raider. Someone brand new is not going to immediately be off doing full clears. They’re going to have to spend time learning the mechanics for all of the fights as well as their rotation(s). This learning phase makes it take much longer to obtain legendary armor than from the other modes. > > > > > > Again I have to disagree that the time spent learning raids is a significant factor when comparing the total time. Many raid bosses are very simple for beginners with a decent understanding of their class, so right from the start they are earning a fair number of LI. It might not be the weekly cap but its still significant. As for wvw and pvp if we are assuming someone is brand new then its very unlikely they are going to spend 20 hours a week in wvw or play 400 games a pvp season, so all three methods have their initial barrier to start earning materials. The main factor is the time gating. Pve is 6/12+ weeks, wvw is 22+ weeks, pvp is 3+ seasons. You can get all 3 sets semi afk if you want, but that is completely beside the point. > > > > Ahm no. > > > > Please don't compare 6-9 experienced raiders carrying, I'm sorry: "teaching", 1-4 new players with actual raid progression. Most players take a significant time to learn to do raids, especially bosses which require dedicated roles. This goes double for W5-7. I have been a part of and/or have gotten to know groups of players who actually "recently" got experience on many bosses, 1 group end of last year, the other early last year. Both groups took a significant time to master fights, especially the first few kills were the longest until a basic raid understanding and approach was developed, again: these players started from scratch. > > > > The moment you are not at the weekly cap, you are also not at 12 weeks per legendary armor. If you "only" drop the weekly cap from 25 LI/LD to say 20 (let's say skipping Wing 5 and Qadim 2). You are already at minimum 15 weeks for an armor. If you drop the LI/LD per week to W1-4 only, you are at 20 weeks per armor. > > > > All the while having failure states for PvE, and group/squad management. Any person who has ever managed a raid squad or guild or regular trainings for an extended period of time, knows that you need to constantly fill up your roster, and occasionally retrain new players. None of this is present in WvW or PvP, where the only failure state is not putting in enough time. > > > > Thus the acquisition methods are rather balanced. The "fastest" one has rather hefty failure states and requires actually cooperation. The other 2 just need you to show up and thus take longer. I'd call that pretty much balanced. > > New players can get pve legendary armor in a minimum of 6 weeks with 150 LI. If you are making your second or third set you should be experienced enough to get close to the weekly cap without too much trouble. Im not sure how else to say this. You can cheese the system and farm legendary armor in all 3 modes by playing semi afk. What is exactly your point? If you think legendary raid armor has the lowest time gate and legendary WvW armor has the highest time gate and that you can semi-afk farm the legendary armor in all three modes: Just get the legendary raid armor semi-afk and then there will be no need to reduce the WvW time gate for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayrilana.1396 Posted August 20, 2020 Share Posted August 20, 2020 > @"SeikeNz.3526" said: > the guys who are against it are the raid players that are against new players on raids, anet need to think serious about it, who are killing their game. > > -arcdps > -some raid players > -bots Did you post this in the wrong thread perhaps? I only ask because what you posted has nothing to do with what is being discussed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted August 20, 2020 Share Posted August 20, 2020 > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > > > > > > > > Why does this argument always turn into a debate of afk farming and buying your way through content? If you actually play the game like a normal person it takes much less time to get the pve gear. But by all means if you want to argue that flipping camps for 500 hours is an easy way to get legendary armor then try it out yourself. Personally I would find raiding a couple times a week to be far easier. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Typically only raiders are able to do full raid clears and it’s not something a random player can expect to do. If they do go the raid route, you have to account for all of the time it takes for them to gain experience on how to do each raid encounter. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would expect that someone trying to get pve legendary armor would become a raider though. Just like its not recommended to play wvw entirely solo just flipping objectives, its not really recommended to do raids casually in pugs. Raids become much easier with a guild, both in learning the fights and then efficiently farming them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes they would probably eventually become a raider but there’s still time spent getting to the point that they can participated in experiences clear group. Some may get lucky and join a guild’s clear group who will carry them as they learn and eventually pull their weight. However, sPvP and WvW do not require this “learning period” as you can jump right in earning your time-gated rewards are the same rate you would if you were a veteran in that game mode. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I dont think anyone is questioning the time spent learning raids. And besides, most new pvp and wvw players arent able to play nearly 400 games a season or finish the skirmish reward track every week. If its a question of obtaining legendary armor as someone who is dedicated to the gamemode, pve is far quicker. If you then assume the player is a veteran of the gamemode, pve is even faster. > > > > > > > > > > > > It’s not about whether people are questioning the time but them ignoring it completely. Getting armor through raids is quicker only if they’re already an established raider. Someone brand new is not going to immediately be off doing full clears. They’re going to have to spend time learning the mechanics for all of the fights as well as their rotation(s). This learning phase makes it take much longer to obtain legendary armor than from the other modes. > > > > > > > > > > Again I have to disagree that the time spent learning raids is a significant factor when comparing the total time. Many raid bosses are very simple for beginners with a decent understanding of their class, so right from the start they are earning a fair number of LI. It might not be the weekly cap but its still significant. As for wvw and pvp if we are assuming someone is brand new then its very unlikely they are going to spend 20 hours a week in wvw or play 400 games a pvp season, so all three methods have their initial barrier to start earning materials. The main factor is the time gating. Pve is 6/12+ weeks, wvw is 22+ weeks, pvp is 3+ seasons. You can get all 3 sets semi afk if you want, but that is completely beside the point. > > > > > > > > Ahm no. > > > > > > > > Please don't compare 6-9 experienced raiders carrying, I'm sorry: "teaching", 1-4 new players with actual raid progression. Most players take a significant time to learn to do raids, especially bosses which require dedicated roles. This goes double for W5-7. I have been a part of and/or have gotten to know groups of players who actually "recently" got experience on many bosses, 1 group end of last year, the other early last year. Both groups took a significant time to master fights, especially the first few kills were the longest until a basic raid understanding and approach was developed, again: these players started from scratch. > > > > > > > > The moment you are not at the weekly cap, you are also not at 12 weeks per legendary armor. If you "only" drop the weekly cap from 25 LI/LD to say 20 (let's say skipping Wing 5 and Qadim 2). You are already at minimum 15 weeks for an armor. If you drop the LI/LD per week to W1-4 only, you are at 20 weeks per armor. > > > > > > > > All the while having failure states for PvE, and group/squad management. Any person who has ever managed a raid squad or guild or regular trainings for an extended period of time, knows that you need to constantly fill up your roster, and occasionally retrain new players. None of this is present in WvW or PvP, where the only failure state is not putting in enough time. > > > > > > > > Thus the acquisition methods are rather balanced. The "fastest" one has rather hefty failure states and requires actually cooperation. The other 2 just need you to show up and thus take longer. I'd call that pretty much balanced. > > > > > > New players can get pve legendary armor in a minimum of 6 weeks with 150 LI. If you are making your second or third set you should be experienced enough to get close to the weekly cap without too much trouble. Im not sure how else to say this. You can cheese the system and farm legendary armor in all 3 modes by playing semi afk. You can buy your way through raids, you can find a guild to carry you, you can flip camps in wvw, you can afk and throw pvp matches, whatever. This is besides the point. In all three modes the average new player probably wont hit the weekly/seasonal cap. Most dedicated players will probably get close, the main factor is time gating. > > > > > > > No. I have to disagree here. I know a lot of players who have even completed their 3 armors. Most of them are no where near clearing all 7 wings weekly, or even within 3-4 hours. If you are lacking experience or exposure to more casual raiders, then that is something you might want to look into. In fact I'd make a claim that most raiders do not full clear weekly beyond W1-4, and definitely not wing 5 or all 7 wings. > > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > If I need to give an example, look at wvw. It takes roughly 20 hours each week to finish the skirmish reward track. Im assuming that most people dedicated to the gamemode play in a guild, and that is a lot of time for an organized group to commit to every week. Its rare to even find a guild that plays that much, and even rarer to find one that keeps up that pace for nearly half a year. The argument that "you can just play solo and farm afk" Is often just telling people to play in a way that doesnt interest them. I could say the same thing to pve raiders, "if your guild doesnt hit the weekly LI cap, then just join some pugs or join/buy a clear with another guild". > > > > There is a vast difference between just afk flipping a camp and raid clearing content. Sorry but this is bs. > > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > Some people hate small scale fighting and roaming just as much as some people hate pugging. The fact that pugging raids might be more challenging doesnt change the fact that in both cases its up to the individual person to decide whether or not its worth putting up with something they dislike to get rewards. The effort involved in actively playing the different gamemodes is roughly the same. > > > > Well we will have to disagree then. You are vastly misrepresenting how difficult it is for players to clear raids. I could link to the hundreds of pages of threads on this issue in the fractal, dungeon and rais forum, but let's keep it simple and just disagree. > > And I have known players who are very average skill-wise yet still get the maximum LI each week. This just the same argument of "wvw and pvp takes no skill so it should take longer". Legendaries have never been about skill. They have always been long term rewards for dedicated players. So once again I need to clarify that im not trying to argue about the theoretical effort it takes. There are "effortless" ways and challenging ways to get all 3 sets of armor. There will always be some people who afk farm in wvw, or bot/throw pvp games. If you argue that this is the reason why it should take longer to get legendary gear you are claiming that in game rewards should be balanced around people who are griefing or breaking tos. > > For hardcore players, time gating is undeniably the most limiting factor. Obviously casual players arent going to cap out on LI each week, just like how casual players arent going to finish the skirmish track every week or play 400 ranked games a season. So in most cases time gating is still the most limiting factor and it can even be more punishing for casual wvw and pvp players since they will rarely earn the final track chests which reward the most materials. There we have it. You want the content to be balanced around hardcore players, for which either approach is insignificant, since a hardcore WvW players has no problem in getting the tickets many times over. Once he is a higher rank even faster. Same applies to PvP. I don't think that hardcore players make up the majority of players playing either content. As such I don't consider balancing around that. It's as easy as that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paradoxoglanis.1904 Posted August 20, 2020 Share Posted August 20, 2020 > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > Why does this argument always turn into a debate of afk farming and buying your way through content? If you actually play the game like a normal person it takes much less time to get the pve gear. But by all means if you want to argue that flipping camps for 500 hours is an easy way to get legendary armor then try it out yourself. Personally I would find raiding a couple times a week to be far easier. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Typically only raiders are able to do full raid clears and it’s not something a random player can expect to do. If they do go the raid route, you have to account for all of the time it takes for them to gain experience on how to do each raid encounter. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would expect that someone trying to get pve legendary armor would become a raider though. Just like its not recommended to play wvw entirely solo just flipping objectives, its not really recommended to do raids casually in pugs. Raids become much easier with a guild, both in learning the fights and then efficiently farming them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes they would probably eventually become a raider but there’s still time spent getting to the point that they can participated in experiences clear group. Some may get lucky and join a guild’s clear group who will carry them as they learn and eventually pull their weight. However, sPvP and WvW do not require this “learning period” as you can jump right in earning your time-gated rewards are the same rate you would if you were a veteran in that game mode. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I dont think anyone is questioning the time spent learning raids. And besides, most new pvp and wvw players arent able to play nearly 400 games a season or finish the skirmish reward track every week. If its a question of obtaining legendary armor as someone who is dedicated to the gamemode, pve is far quicker. If you then assume the player is a veteran of the gamemode, pve is even faster. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It’s not about whether people are questioning the time but them ignoring it completely. Getting armor through raids is quicker only if they’re already an established raider. Someone brand new is not going to immediately be off doing full clears. They’re going to have to spend time learning the mechanics for all of the fights as well as their rotation(s). This learning phase makes it take much longer to obtain legendary armor than from the other modes. > > > > > > > > > > > > Again I have to disagree that the time spent learning raids is a significant factor when comparing the total time. Many raid bosses are very simple for beginners with a decent understanding of their class, so right from the start they are earning a fair number of LI. It might not be the weekly cap but its still significant. As for wvw and pvp if we are assuming someone is brand new then its very unlikely they are going to spend 20 hours a week in wvw or play 400 games a pvp season, so all three methods have their initial barrier to start earning materials. The main factor is the time gating. Pve is 6/12+ weeks, wvw is 22+ weeks, pvp is 3+ seasons. You can get all 3 sets semi afk if you want, but that is completely beside the point. > > > > > > > > > > Ahm no. > > > > > > > > > > Please don't compare 6-9 experienced raiders carrying, I'm sorry: "teaching", 1-4 new players with actual raid progression. Most players take a significant time to learn to do raids, especially bosses which require dedicated roles. This goes double for W5-7. I have been a part of and/or have gotten to know groups of players who actually "recently" got experience on many bosses, 1 group end of last year, the other early last year. Both groups took a significant time to master fights, especially the first few kills were the longest until a basic raid understanding and approach was developed, again: these players started from scratch. > > > > > > > > > > The moment you are not at the weekly cap, you are also not at 12 weeks per legendary armor. If you "only" drop the weekly cap from 25 LI/LD to say 20 (let's say skipping Wing 5 and Qadim 2). You are already at minimum 15 weeks for an armor. If you drop the LI/LD per week to W1-4 only, you are at 20 weeks per armor. > > > > > > > > > > All the while having failure states for PvE, and group/squad management. Any person who has ever managed a raid squad or guild or regular trainings for an extended period of time, knows that you need to constantly fill up your roster, and occasionally retrain new players. None of this is present in WvW or PvP, where the only failure state is not putting in enough time. > > > > > > > > > > Thus the acquisition methods are rather balanced. The "fastest" one has rather hefty failure states and requires actually cooperation. The other 2 just need you to show up and thus take longer. I'd call that pretty much balanced. > > > > > > > > New players can get pve legendary armor in a minimum of 6 weeks with 150 LI. If you are making your second or third set you should be experienced enough to get close to the weekly cap without too much trouble. Im not sure how else to say this. You can cheese the system and farm legendary armor in all 3 modes by playing semi afk. You can buy your way through raids, you can find a guild to carry you, you can flip camps in wvw, you can afk and throw pvp matches, whatever. This is besides the point. In all three modes the average new player probably wont hit the weekly/seasonal cap. Most dedicated players will probably get close, the main factor is time gating. > > > > > > > > > > No. I have to disagree here. I know a lot of players who have even completed their 3 armors. Most of them are no where near clearing all 7 wings weekly, or even within 3-4 hours. If you are lacking experience or exposure to more casual raiders, then that is something you might want to look into. In fact I'd make a claim that most raiders do not full clear weekly beyond W1-4, and definitely not wing 5 or all 7 wings. > > > > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > If I need to give an example, look at wvw. It takes roughly 20 hours each week to finish the skirmish reward track. Im assuming that most people dedicated to the gamemode play in a guild, and that is a lot of time for an organized group to commit to every week. Its rare to even find a guild that plays that much, and even rarer to find one that keeps up that pace for nearly half a year. The argument that "you can just play solo and farm afk" Is often just telling people to play in a way that doesnt interest them. I could say the same thing to pve raiders, "if your guild doesnt hit the weekly LI cap, then just join some pugs or join/buy a clear with another guild". > > > > > > There is a vast difference between just afk flipping a camp and raid clearing content. Sorry but this is bs. > > > > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > Some people hate small scale fighting and roaming just as much as some people hate pugging. The fact that pugging raids might be more challenging doesnt change the fact that in both cases its up to the individual person to decide whether or not its worth putting up with something they dislike to get rewards. The effort involved in actively playing the different gamemodes is roughly the same. > > > > > > Well we will have to disagree then. You are vastly misrepresenting how difficult it is for players to clear raids. I could link to the hundreds of pages of threads on this issue in the fractal, dungeon and rais forum, but let's keep it simple and just disagree. > > > > And I have known players who are very average skill-wise yet still get the maximum LI each week. This just the same argument of "wvw and pvp takes no skill so it should take longer". Legendaries have never been about skill. They have always been long term rewards for dedicated players. So once again I need to clarify that im not trying to argue about the theoretical effort it takes. There are "effortless" ways and challenging ways to get all 3 sets of armor. There will always be some people who afk farm in wvw, or bot/throw pvp games. If you argue that this is the reason why it should take longer to get legendary gear you are claiming that in game rewards should be balanced around people who are griefing or breaking tos. > > > > For hardcore players, time gating is undeniably the most limiting factor. Obviously casual players arent going to cap out on LI each week, just like how casual players arent going to finish the skirmish track every week or play 400 ranked games a season. So in most cases time gating is still the most limiting factor and it can even be more punishing for casual wvw and pvp players since they will rarely earn the final track chests which reward the most materials. > > There we have it. You want the content to be balanced around hardcore players, for which either approach is insignificant, since a hardcore WvW players has no problem in getting the tickets many times over. Once he is a higher rank even faster. Same applies to PvP. > > I don't think that hardcore players make up the majority of players playing either content. As such I don't consider balancing around that. It's as easy as that. Perhaps you misunderstood. Compared to pve, getting wvw and pvp armor is slower for hardcore players. Its arguably even slower for casual players depending on playtime vs how many bosses they can kill. Im not arguing for hardcore balance in stating any of this. All im saying is that in most cases it takes longer to get wvw and pvp legendary armor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paradoxoglanis.1904 Posted August 20, 2020 Share Posted August 20, 2020 > @"Zok.4956" said: > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > > > > > > > Why does this argument always turn into a debate of afk farming and buying your way through content? If you actually play the game like a normal person it takes much less time to get the pve gear. But by all means if you want to argue that flipping camps for 500 hours is an easy way to get legendary armor then try it out yourself. Personally I would find raiding a couple times a week to be far easier. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Typically only raiders are able to do full raid clears and it’s not something a random player can expect to do. If they do go the raid route, you have to account for all of the time it takes for them to gain experience on how to do each raid encounter. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would expect that someone trying to get pve legendary armor would become a raider though. Just like its not recommended to play wvw entirely solo just flipping objectives, its not really recommended to do raids casually in pugs. Raids become much easier with a guild, both in learning the fights and then efficiently farming them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes they would probably eventually become a raider but there’s still time spent getting to the point that they can participated in experiences clear group. Some may get lucky and join a guild’s clear group who will carry them as they learn and eventually pull their weight. However, sPvP and WvW do not require this “learning period” as you can jump right in earning your time-gated rewards are the same rate you would if you were a veteran in that game mode. > > > > > > > > > > > > I dont think anyone is questioning the time spent learning raids. And besides, most new pvp and wvw players arent able to play nearly 400 games a season or finish the skirmish reward track every week. If its a question of obtaining legendary armor as someone who is dedicated to the gamemode, pve is far quicker. If you then assume the player is a veteran of the gamemode, pve is even faster. > > > > > > > > > > It’s not about whether people are questioning the time but them ignoring it completely. Getting armor through raids is quicker only if they’re already an established raider. Someone brand new is not going to immediately be off doing full clears. They’re going to have to spend time learning the mechanics for all of the fights as well as their rotation(s). This learning phase makes it take much longer to obtain legendary armor than from the other modes. > > > > > > > > Again I have to disagree that the time spent learning raids is a significant factor when comparing the total time. Many raid bosses are very simple for beginners with a decent understanding of their class, so right from the start they are earning a fair number of LI. It might not be the weekly cap but its still significant. As for wvw and pvp if we are assuming someone is brand new then its very unlikely they are going to spend 20 hours a week in wvw or play 400 games a pvp season, so all three methods have their initial barrier to start earning materials. The main factor is the time gating. Pve is 6/12+ weeks, wvw is 22+ weeks, pvp is 3+ seasons. You can get all 3 sets semi afk if you want, but that is completely beside the point. > > > > > > Ahm no. > > > > > > Please don't compare 6-9 experienced raiders carrying, I'm sorry: "teaching", 1-4 new players with actual raid progression. Most players take a significant time to learn to do raids, especially bosses which require dedicated roles. This goes double for W5-7. I have been a part of and/or have gotten to know groups of players who actually "recently" got experience on many bosses, 1 group end of last year, the other early last year. Both groups took a significant time to master fights, especially the first few kills were the longest until a basic raid understanding and approach was developed, again: these players started from scratch. > > > > > > The moment you are not at the weekly cap, you are also not at 12 weeks per legendary armor. If you "only" drop the weekly cap from 25 LI/LD to say 20 (let's say skipping Wing 5 and Qadim 2). You are already at minimum 15 weeks for an armor. If you drop the LI/LD per week to W1-4 only, you are at 20 weeks per armor. > > > > > > All the while having failure states for PvE, and group/squad management. Any person who has ever managed a raid squad or guild or regular trainings for an extended period of time, knows that you need to constantly fill up your roster, and occasionally retrain new players. None of this is present in WvW or PvP, where the only failure state is not putting in enough time. > > > > > > Thus the acquisition methods are rather balanced. The "fastest" one has rather hefty failure states and requires actually cooperation. The other 2 just need you to show up and thus take longer. I'd call that pretty much balanced. > > > > New players can get pve legendary armor in a minimum of 6 weeks with 150 LI. If you are making your second or third set you should be experienced enough to get close to the weekly cap without too much trouble. Im not sure how else to say this. You can cheese the system and farm legendary armor in all 3 modes by playing semi afk. > > What is exactly your point? > > If you think legendary raid armor has the lowest time gate and legendary WvW armor has the highest time gate and that you can semi-afk farm the legendary armor in all three modes: Just get the legendary raid armor semi-afk and then there will be no need to reduce the WvW time gate for you. > Im assuming that most people dont raid, wvw, or pvp just to farm legendary armor. Its meant to be a reward for dedicating your time to a specific gamemode and in most cases it takes longer in wvw and pvp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayrilana.1396 Posted August 20, 2020 Share Posted August 20, 2020 > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why does this argument always turn into a debate of afk farming and buying your way through content? If you actually play the game like a normal person it takes much less time to get the pve gear. But by all means if you want to argue that flipping camps for 500 hours is an easy way to get legendary armor then try it out yourself. Personally I would find raiding a couple times a week to be far easier. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Typically only raiders are able to do full raid clears and it’s not something a random player can expect to do. If they do go the raid route, you have to account for all of the time it takes for them to gain experience on how to do each raid encounter. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would expect that someone trying to get pve legendary armor would become a raider though. Just like its not recommended to play wvw entirely solo just flipping objectives, its not really recommended to do raids casually in pugs. Raids become much easier with a guild, both in learning the fights and then efficiently farming them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes they would probably eventually become a raider but there’s still time spent getting to the point that they can participated in experiences clear group. Some may get lucky and join a guild’s clear group who will carry them as they learn and eventually pull their weight. However, sPvP and WvW do not require this “learning period” as you can jump right in earning your time-gated rewards are the same rate you would if you were a veteran in that game mode. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I dont think anyone is questioning the time spent learning raids. And besides, most new pvp and wvw players arent able to play nearly 400 games a season or finish the skirmish reward track every week. If its a question of obtaining legendary armor as someone who is dedicated to the gamemode, pve is far quicker. If you then assume the player is a veteran of the gamemode, pve is even faster. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It’s not about whether people are questioning the time but them ignoring it completely. Getting armor through raids is quicker only if they’re already an established raider. Someone brand new is not going to immediately be off doing full clears. They’re going to have to spend time learning the mechanics for all of the fights as well as their rotation(s). This learning phase makes it take much longer to obtain legendary armor than from the other modes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again I have to disagree that the time spent learning raids is a significant factor when comparing the total time. Many raid bosses are very simple for beginners with a decent understanding of their class, so right from the start they are earning a fair number of LI. It might not be the weekly cap but its still significant. As for wvw and pvp if we are assuming someone is brand new then its very unlikely they are going to spend 20 hours a week in wvw or play 400 games a pvp season, so all three methods have their initial barrier to start earning materials. The main factor is the time gating. Pve is 6/12+ weeks, wvw is 22+ weeks, pvp is 3+ seasons. You can get all 3 sets semi afk if you want, but that is completely beside the point. > > > > > > > > > > > > Ahm no. > > > > > > > > > > > > Please don't compare 6-9 experienced raiders carrying, I'm sorry: "teaching", 1-4 new players with actual raid progression. Most players take a significant time to learn to do raids, especially bosses which require dedicated roles. This goes double for W5-7. I have been a part of and/or have gotten to know groups of players who actually "recently" got experience on many bosses, 1 group end of last year, the other early last year. Both groups took a significant time to master fights, especially the first few kills were the longest until a basic raid understanding and approach was developed, again: these players started from scratch. > > > > > > > > > > > > The moment you are not at the weekly cap, you are also not at 12 weeks per legendary armor. If you "only" drop the weekly cap from 25 LI/LD to say 20 (let's say skipping Wing 5 and Qadim 2). You are already at minimum 15 weeks for an armor. If you drop the LI/LD per week to W1-4 only, you are at 20 weeks per armor. > > > > > > > > > > > > All the while having failure states for PvE, and group/squad management. Any person who has ever managed a raid squad or guild or regular trainings for an extended period of time, knows that you need to constantly fill up your roster, and occasionally retrain new players. None of this is present in WvW or PvP, where the only failure state is not putting in enough time. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thus the acquisition methods are rather balanced. The "fastest" one has rather hefty failure states and requires actually cooperation. The other 2 just need you to show up and thus take longer. I'd call that pretty much balanced. > > > > > > > > > > New players can get pve legendary armor in a minimum of 6 weeks with 150 LI. If you are making your second or third set you should be experienced enough to get close to the weekly cap without too much trouble. Im not sure how else to say this. You can cheese the system and farm legendary armor in all 3 modes by playing semi afk. You can buy your way through raids, you can find a guild to carry you, you can flip camps in wvw, you can afk and throw pvp matches, whatever. This is besides the point. In all three modes the average new player probably wont hit the weekly/seasonal cap. Most dedicated players will probably get close, the main factor is time gating. > > > > > > > > > > > > > No. I have to disagree here. I know a lot of players who have even completed their 3 armors. Most of them are no where near clearing all 7 wings weekly, or even within 3-4 hours. If you are lacking experience or exposure to more casual raiders, then that is something you might want to look into. In fact I'd make a claim that most raiders do not full clear weekly beyond W1-4, and definitely not wing 5 or all 7 wings. > > > > > > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > > If I need to give an example, look at wvw. It takes roughly 20 hours each week to finish the skirmish reward track. Im assuming that most people dedicated to the gamemode play in a guild, and that is a lot of time for an organized group to commit to every week. Its rare to even find a guild that plays that much, and even rarer to find one that keeps up that pace for nearly half a year. The argument that "you can just play solo and farm afk" Is often just telling people to play in a way that doesnt interest them. I could say the same thing to pve raiders, "if your guild doesnt hit the weekly LI cap, then just join some pugs or join/buy a clear with another guild". > > > > > > > > There is a vast difference between just afk flipping a camp and raid clearing content. Sorry but this is bs. > > > > > > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > > Some people hate small scale fighting and roaming just as much as some people hate pugging. The fact that pugging raids might be more challenging doesnt change the fact that in both cases its up to the individual person to decide whether or not its worth putting up with something they dislike to get rewards. The effort involved in actively playing the different gamemodes is roughly the same. > > > > > > > > Well we will have to disagree then. You are vastly misrepresenting how difficult it is for players to clear raids. I could link to the hundreds of pages of threads on this issue in the fractal, dungeon and rais forum, but let's keep it simple and just disagree. > > > > > > And I have known players who are very average skill-wise yet still get the maximum LI each week. This just the same argument of "wvw and pvp takes no skill so it should take longer". Legendaries have never been about skill. They have always been long term rewards for dedicated players. So once again I need to clarify that im not trying to argue about the theoretical effort it takes. There are "effortless" ways and challenging ways to get all 3 sets of armor. There will always be some people who afk farm in wvw, or bot/throw pvp games. If you argue that this is the reason why it should take longer to get legendary gear you are claiming that in game rewards should be balanced around people who are griefing or breaking tos. > > > > > > For hardcore players, time gating is undeniably the most limiting factor. Obviously casual players arent going to cap out on LI each week, just like how casual players arent going to finish the skirmish track every week or play 400 ranked games a season. So in most cases time gating is still the most limiting factor and it can even be more punishing for casual wvw and pvp players since they will rarely earn the final track chests which reward the most materials. > > > > There we have it. You want the content to be balanced around hardcore players, for which either approach is insignificant, since a hardcore WvW players has no problem in getting the tickets many times over. Once he is a higher rank even faster. Same applies to PvP. > > > > I don't think that hardcore players make up the majority of players playing either content. As such I don't consider balancing around that. It's as easy as that. > > Perhaps you misunderstood. Compared to pve, getting wvw and pvp armor is slower for hardcore players. Its arguably even slower for casual players depending on playtime vs how many bosses they can kill. Im not arguing for hardcore balance in stating any of this. All im saying is that in most cases it takes longer to get wvw and pvp legendary armor. Hardcore sPvP and WvW players will be earning more pips. What you, and the OP, have been doing is using the rate that a veteran raider would obtain LI versus the rate that a beginner WvW/sPvP player would earn pips. It’s an unfair comparison. You compare the rates that hardcore players would earn doing either of those modes or you compare the rates of casual/beginner players in each of those modes. You don’t mix and match rates so that it benefits your narrative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted August 20, 2020 Share Posted August 20, 2020 > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why does this argument always turn into a debate of afk farming and buying your way through content? If you actually play the game like a normal person it takes much less time to get the pve gear. But by all means if you want to argue that flipping camps for 500 hours is an easy way to get legendary armor then try it out yourself. Personally I would find raiding a couple times a week to be far easier. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Typically only raiders are able to do full raid clears and it’s not something a random player can expect to do. If they do go the raid route, you have to account for all of the time it takes for them to gain experience on how to do each raid encounter. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would expect that someone trying to get pve legendary armor would become a raider though. Just like its not recommended to play wvw entirely solo just flipping objectives, its not really recommended to do raids casually in pugs. Raids become much easier with a guild, both in learning the fights and then efficiently farming them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes they would probably eventually become a raider but there’s still time spent getting to the point that they can participated in experiences clear group. Some may get lucky and join a guild’s clear group who will carry them as they learn and eventually pull their weight. However, sPvP and WvW do not require this “learning period” as you can jump right in earning your time-gated rewards are the same rate you would if you were a veteran in that game mode. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I dont think anyone is questioning the time spent learning raids. And besides, most new pvp and wvw players arent able to play nearly 400 games a season or finish the skirmish reward track every week. If its a question of obtaining legendary armor as someone who is dedicated to the gamemode, pve is far quicker. If you then assume the player is a veteran of the gamemode, pve is even faster. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It’s not about whether people are questioning the time but them ignoring it completely. Getting armor through raids is quicker only if they’re already an established raider. Someone brand new is not going to immediately be off doing full clears. They’re going to have to spend time learning the mechanics for all of the fights as well as their rotation(s). This learning phase makes it take much longer to obtain legendary armor than from the other modes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again I have to disagree that the time spent learning raids is a significant factor when comparing the total time. Many raid bosses are very simple for beginners with a decent understanding of their class, so right from the start they are earning a fair number of LI. It might not be the weekly cap but its still significant. As for wvw and pvp if we are assuming someone is brand new then its very unlikely they are going to spend 20 hours a week in wvw or play 400 games a pvp season, so all three methods have their initial barrier to start earning materials. The main factor is the time gating. Pve is 6/12+ weeks, wvw is 22+ weeks, pvp is 3+ seasons. You can get all 3 sets semi afk if you want, but that is completely beside the point. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ahm no. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please don't compare 6-9 experienced raiders carrying, I'm sorry: "teaching", 1-4 new players with actual raid progression. Most players take a significant time to learn to do raids, especially bosses which require dedicated roles. This goes double for W5-7. I have been a part of and/or have gotten to know groups of players who actually "recently" got experience on many bosses, 1 group end of last year, the other early last year. Both groups took a significant time to master fights, especially the first few kills were the longest until a basic raid understanding and approach was developed, again: these players started from scratch. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The moment you are not at the weekly cap, you are also not at 12 weeks per legendary armor. If you "only" drop the weekly cap from 25 LI/LD to say 20 (let's say skipping Wing 5 and Qadim 2). You are already at minimum 15 weeks for an armor. If you drop the LI/LD per week to W1-4 only, you are at 20 weeks per armor. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All the while having failure states for PvE, and group/squad management. Any person who has ever managed a raid squad or guild or regular trainings for an extended period of time, knows that you need to constantly fill up your roster, and occasionally retrain new players. None of this is present in WvW or PvP, where the only failure state is not putting in enough time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thus the acquisition methods are rather balanced. The "fastest" one has rather hefty failure states and requires actually cooperation. The other 2 just need you to show up and thus take longer. I'd call that pretty much balanced. > > > > > > > > > > > > New players can get pve legendary armor in a minimum of 6 weeks with 150 LI. If you are making your second or third set you should be experienced enough to get close to the weekly cap without too much trouble. Im not sure how else to say this. You can cheese the system and farm legendary armor in all 3 modes by playing semi afk. You can buy your way through raids, you can find a guild to carry you, you can flip camps in wvw, you can afk and throw pvp matches, whatever. This is besides the point. In all three modes the average new player probably wont hit the weekly/seasonal cap. Most dedicated players will probably get close, the main factor is time gating. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No. I have to disagree here. I know a lot of players who have even completed their 3 armors. Most of them are no where near clearing all 7 wings weekly, or even within 3-4 hours. If you are lacking experience or exposure to more casual raiders, then that is something you might want to look into. In fact I'd make a claim that most raiders do not full clear weekly beyond W1-4, and definitely not wing 5 or all 7 wings. > > > > > > > > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > > > If I need to give an example, look at wvw. It takes roughly 20 hours each week to finish the skirmish reward track. Im assuming that most people dedicated to the gamemode play in a guild, and that is a lot of time for an organized group to commit to every week. Its rare to even find a guild that plays that much, and even rarer to find one that keeps up that pace for nearly half a year. The argument that "you can just play solo and farm afk" Is often just telling people to play in a way that doesnt interest them. I could say the same thing to pve raiders, "if your guild doesnt hit the weekly LI cap, then just join some pugs or join/buy a clear with another guild". > > > > > > > > > > There is a vast difference between just afk flipping a camp and raid clearing content. Sorry but this is bs. > > > > > > > > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > > > Some people hate small scale fighting and roaming just as much as some people hate pugging. The fact that pugging raids might be more challenging doesnt change the fact that in both cases its up to the individual person to decide whether or not its worth putting up with something they dislike to get rewards. The effort involved in actively playing the different gamemodes is roughly the same. > > > > > > > > > > Well we will have to disagree then. You are vastly misrepresenting how difficult it is for players to clear raids. I could link to the hundreds of pages of threads on this issue in the fractal, dungeon and rais forum, but let's keep it simple and just disagree. > > > > > > > > And I have known players who are very average skill-wise yet still get the maximum LI each week. This just the same argument of "wvw and pvp takes no skill so it should take longer". Legendaries have never been about skill. They have always been long term rewards for dedicated players. So once again I need to clarify that im not trying to argue about the theoretical effort it takes. There are "effortless" ways and challenging ways to get all 3 sets of armor. There will always be some people who afk farm in wvw, or bot/throw pvp games. If you argue that this is the reason why it should take longer to get legendary gear you are claiming that in game rewards should be balanced around people who are griefing or breaking tos. > > > > > > > > For hardcore players, time gating is undeniably the most limiting factor. Obviously casual players arent going to cap out on LI each week, just like how casual players arent going to finish the skirmish track every week or play 400 ranked games a season. So in most cases time gating is still the most limiting factor and it can even be more punishing for casual wvw and pvp players since they will rarely earn the final track chests which reward the most materials. > > > > > > There we have it. You want the content to be balanced around hardcore players, for which either approach is insignificant, since a hardcore WvW players has no problem in getting the tickets many times over. Once he is a higher rank even faster. Same applies to PvP. > > > > > > I don't think that hardcore players make up the majority of players playing either content. As such I don't consider balancing around that. It's as easy as that. > > > > Perhaps you misunderstood. Compared to pve, getting wvw and pvp armor is slower for hardcore players. Its arguably even slower for casual players depending on playtime vs how many bosses they can kill. Im not arguing for hardcore balance in stating any of this. All im saying is that in most cases it takes longer to get wvw and pvp legendary armor. > > Hardcore sPvP and WvW players will be earning more pips. What you, and the OP, have been doing is using the rate that a veteran raider would obtain LI versus the rate that a beginner WvW/sPvP player would earn pips. It’s an unfair comparison. > > You compare the rates that hardcore players would earn doing either of those modes or you compare the rates of casual/beginner players in each of those modes. You don’t mix and match rates so that it benefits your narrative. Pretty much this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paradoxoglanis.1904 Posted August 20, 2020 Share Posted August 20, 2020 > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why does this argument always turn into a debate of afk farming and buying your way through content? If you actually play the game like a normal person it takes much less time to get the pve gear. But by all means if you want to argue that flipping camps for 500 hours is an easy way to get legendary armor then try it out yourself. Personally I would find raiding a couple times a week to be far easier. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Typically only raiders are able to do full raid clears and it’s not something a random player can expect to do. If they do go the raid route, you have to account for all of the time it takes for them to gain experience on how to do each raid encounter. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would expect that someone trying to get pve legendary armor would become a raider though. Just like its not recommended to play wvw entirely solo just flipping objectives, its not really recommended to do raids casually in pugs. Raids become much easier with a guild, both in learning the fights and then efficiently farming them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes they would probably eventually become a raider but there’s still time spent getting to the point that they can participated in experiences clear group. Some may get lucky and join a guild’s clear group who will carry them as they learn and eventually pull their weight. However, sPvP and WvW do not require this “learning period” as you can jump right in earning your time-gated rewards are the same rate you would if you were a veteran in that game mode. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I dont think anyone is questioning the time spent learning raids. And besides, most new pvp and wvw players arent able to play nearly 400 games a season or finish the skirmish reward track every week. If its a question of obtaining legendary armor as someone who is dedicated to the gamemode, pve is far quicker. If you then assume the player is a veteran of the gamemode, pve is even faster. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It’s not about whether people are questioning the time but them ignoring it completely. Getting armor through raids is quicker only if they’re already an established raider. Someone brand new is not going to immediately be off doing full clears. They’re going to have to spend time learning the mechanics for all of the fights as well as their rotation(s). This learning phase makes it take much longer to obtain legendary armor than from the other modes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again I have to disagree that the time spent learning raids is a significant factor when comparing the total time. Many raid bosses are very simple for beginners with a decent understanding of their class, so right from the start they are earning a fair number of LI. It might not be the weekly cap but its still significant. As for wvw and pvp if we are assuming someone is brand new then its very unlikely they are going to spend 20 hours a week in wvw or play 400 games a pvp season, so all three methods have their initial barrier to start earning materials. The main factor is the time gating. Pve is 6/12+ weeks, wvw is 22+ weeks, pvp is 3+ seasons. You can get all 3 sets semi afk if you want, but that is completely beside the point. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ahm no. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please don't compare 6-9 experienced raiders carrying, I'm sorry: "teaching", 1-4 new players with actual raid progression. Most players take a significant time to learn to do raids, especially bosses which require dedicated roles. This goes double for W5-7. I have been a part of and/or have gotten to know groups of players who actually "recently" got experience on many bosses, 1 group end of last year, the other early last year. Both groups took a significant time to master fights, especially the first few kills were the longest until a basic raid understanding and approach was developed, again: these players started from scratch. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The moment you are not at the weekly cap, you are also not at 12 weeks per legendary armor. If you "only" drop the weekly cap from 25 LI/LD to say 20 (let's say skipping Wing 5 and Qadim 2). You are already at minimum 15 weeks for an armor. If you drop the LI/LD per week to W1-4 only, you are at 20 weeks per armor. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All the while having failure states for PvE, and group/squad management. Any person who has ever managed a raid squad or guild or regular trainings for an extended period of time, knows that you need to constantly fill up your roster, and occasionally retrain new players. None of this is present in WvW or PvP, where the only failure state is not putting in enough time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thus the acquisition methods are rather balanced. The "fastest" one has rather hefty failure states and requires actually cooperation. The other 2 just need you to show up and thus take longer. I'd call that pretty much balanced. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > New players can get pve legendary armor in a minimum of 6 weeks with 150 LI. If you are making your second or third set you should be experienced enough to get close to the weekly cap without too much trouble. Im not sure how else to say this. You can cheese the system and farm legendary armor in all 3 modes by playing semi afk. You can buy your way through raids, you can find a guild to carry you, you can flip camps in wvw, you can afk and throw pvp matches, whatever. This is besides the point. In all three modes the average new player probably wont hit the weekly/seasonal cap. Most dedicated players will probably get close, the main factor is time gating. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No. I have to disagree here. I know a lot of players who have even completed their 3 armors. Most of them are no where near clearing all 7 wings weekly, or even within 3-4 hours. If you are lacking experience or exposure to more casual raiders, then that is something you might want to look into. In fact I'd make a claim that most raiders do not full clear weekly beyond W1-4, and definitely not wing 5 or all 7 wings. > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > > > > If I need to give an example, look at wvw. It takes roughly 20 hours each week to finish the skirmish reward track. Im assuming that most people dedicated to the gamemode play in a guild, and that is a lot of time for an organized group to commit to every week. Its rare to even find a guild that plays that much, and even rarer to find one that keeps up that pace for nearly half a year. The argument that "you can just play solo and farm afk" Is often just telling people to play in a way that doesnt interest them. I could say the same thing to pve raiders, "if your guild doesnt hit the weekly LI cap, then just join some pugs or join/buy a clear with another guild". > > > > > > > > > > > > There is a vast difference between just afk flipping a camp and raid clearing content. Sorry but this is bs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > > > > Some people hate small scale fighting and roaming just as much as some people hate pugging. The fact that pugging raids might be more challenging doesnt change the fact that in both cases its up to the individual person to decide whether or not its worth putting up with something they dislike to get rewards. The effort involved in actively playing the different gamemodes is roughly the same. > > > > > > > > > > > > Well we will have to disagree then. You are vastly misrepresenting how difficult it is for players to clear raids. I could link to the hundreds of pages of threads on this issue in the fractal, dungeon and rais forum, but let's keep it simple and just disagree. > > > > > > > > > > And I have known players who are very average skill-wise yet still get the maximum LI each week. This just the same argument of "wvw and pvp takes no skill so it should take longer". Legendaries have never been about skill. They have always been long term rewards for dedicated players. So once again I need to clarify that im not trying to argue about the theoretical effort it takes. There are "effortless" ways and challenging ways to get all 3 sets of armor. There will always be some people who afk farm in wvw, or bot/throw pvp games. If you argue that this is the reason why it should take longer to get legendary gear you are claiming that in game rewards should be balanced around people who are griefing or breaking tos. > > > > > > > > > > For hardcore players, time gating is undeniably the most limiting factor. Obviously casual players arent going to cap out on LI each week, just like how casual players arent going to finish the skirmish track every week or play 400 ranked games a season. So in most cases time gating is still the most limiting factor and it can even be more punishing for casual wvw and pvp players since they will rarely earn the final track chests which reward the most materials. > > > > > > > > There we have it. You want the content to be balanced around hardcore players, for which either approach is insignificant, since a hardcore WvW players has no problem in getting the tickets many times over. Once he is a higher rank even faster. Same applies to PvP. > > > > > > > > I don't think that hardcore players make up the majority of players playing either content. As such I don't consider balancing around that. It's as easy as that. > > > > > > Perhaps you misunderstood. Compared to pve, getting wvw and pvp armor is slower for hardcore players. Its arguably even slower for casual players depending on playtime vs how many bosses they can kill. Im not arguing for hardcore balance in stating any of this. All im saying is that in most cases it takes longer to get wvw and pvp legendary armor. > > > > Hardcore sPvP and WvW players will be earning more pips. What you, and the OP, have been doing is using the rate that a veteran raider would obtain LI versus the rate that a beginner WvW/sPvP player would earn pips. It’s an unfair comparison. > > > > You compare the rates that hardcore players would earn doing either of those modes or you compare the rates of casual/beginner players in each of those modes. You don’t mix and match rates so that it benefits your narrative. > > Pretty much this. I seem to recall stating multiple times that casual/new players will likely not be earning the max number of weekly/seasonal pips, while hardcore players will. I also seem to recall saying that hardcore raiders will likely earn the LI cap while casual/new players wont. If you really want to go into the details of average pips/match or pips/5mins then I suggest looking at this: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Skirmish_reward_track https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/PvP_League#Rewards https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Special:RunQuery/WvW_skirmish_pip_query? In pvp, the platinum bonus only gives 2. Nearly all people (hardcore veteran or not) will never get to or stay in legendary. Most games are not within 400-500 score. In wvw, even as a gold rank it still is roughly 14-15 hours each week. Getting to that rank can take years, and getting higher than platinum pretty much requires you to have played wvw consistently since launch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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