DaFishBob.6518 Posted September 19, 2020 Share Posted September 19, 2020 I remember these things showing up during the east Bjora marches meta and always throwing me on to a failing map when the map I was on would have succeeded. I genuinely thought Anet was trying to mess with it like it's Jormag trying to play tricks on us just like the Awakened did with the bounties on Sandswept Isles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khisanth.2948 Posted September 19, 2020 Share Posted September 19, 2020 > @"Hesione.9412" said: > _The problem is_ closing maps while players are actively doing metas. _Currently_, the "intent" of those players is _not taken into account_ by the system. The system puts up a closing map irrespective of what is going on. This causes a problem with players trying to get into/stay in maps that are working towards the meta. The _intent_ of players who are working towards the meta on an active map is currently _not_ taken into account. That leaves out the fact that the closing status is not set in stone. A map that is closing can switch back to not closing if it fills back up. There **was** a bug way back that caused that to be not true but that was fixed long ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atomos.7593 Posted September 19, 2020 Share Posted September 19, 2020 > @"Hesione.9412" said: > > @"Khisanth.2948" said: > > You could just ignore it at least for an hour. > > > > There is very very likely to be a bug in the system as well. I have gotten that popup in the middle of doing reset Ley Line Anomaly with a group big enough to cause crippling amounts of server lag. That was definitely not an instance lacking in players. > > I have been on a Dragonfall map where the kitten thing came up, and we were tier 2 on one camp and tier 1 on the other two. I swapped because I didn't know if an hour was long enough to do the rest of the meta and decided it probably wasn't. I ended up on a map where the camps weren't even captured. > > I've also had circumstances where I have changed maps two/three times in a row. I choose to go to another map, and then literally the next closing map warning appears within five minutes. > > The current system has a problem. It could be improved. I was just on a Dragonfall map where it happened in the middle of the ley-infused champion bonus runs that happen after the main part of meta finishes, even though there was a commander running the boss train. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogue.8235 Posted September 19, 2020 Share Posted September 19, 2020 > @"Hesione.9412" said: > > @"Rogue.8235" said: > > > @"Hesione.9412" said: > > > > @"Rogue.8235" said: > > > > One thing people seem to be missing is what the system would have to do in order for it to operate "sensibly" as described. > > > > > > > > Ideally, this thread wants an automated system to understand and react to human intentions. How would you program such a thing to be able to identify and react to near infinite possibilities when it comes to human behavior. Additionally, how would you program it such that it doesn't require supercomputers. Our legal framework can barely handle human intentions, let alone video games. > > > > > > > > However, I do understand the sentiment. It is wierd to volunteer for a new map only to immediately see that it, too, is closing. > > > > > > The system for closing maps _is already_ automated. This means that there is some trigger condition, or conditions, to close a map. > > > > > > Information on how a meta progressing is stored at the server end. > > > > > > The question is therefore what would be an improved trigger or outcome? One option is to test how far through a meta is, with players being directed to a map where the meta is _progressing_ but has not yet finished. > > > > > > An alternative would be to create a map where all players enter the same new map once a meta is complete. Maybe keep the old map open for the players already in there, but don't direct other players into it. > > > > > > This isn't mind-reading. This is programming a set of options into code. > > > > You listed only one use case. The assumption that all players are only interested in a single meta event on a map. Programming the function this way excludes all other possible use cases, which doesn't make the problem mentioned in this thread go away. The function must be able to handle all possible intentions of all possible players loading into and leaving a map. This is what I was pointing out in terms of making this automated system identify human intent. > > > > I know it's automated. You guys are asking for this automated system to be able to automatically identify what your intentions are and load you into a map based on those intentions. This means that the system must be able to handle all possible use cases. Again you only listed one. > > At this point I am unsure if you are arguing in good faith. > > No, maps with meta events _do not_ have to somehow identify human intent. > > A meta event map is a meta event map. This means that progress towards the meta event can be used as a measure of which map to close. > > _The problem is_ closing maps while players are actively doing metas. _Currently_, the "intent" of those players is _not taken into account_ by the system. The system puts up a closing map irrespective of what is going on. This causes a problem with players trying to get into/stay in maps that are working towards the meta. The _intent_ of players who are working towards the meta on an active map is currently _not_ taken into account. > > The system does not have to take intent into account. All players who are going into an active meta map will either progress the meta, or they will not. Those are the only two "intent" cases. The current system does not boot out players who are not working towards the meta, and we _already_ have the situation where players are on an active meta map who aren't working towards the meta. My suggestion makes no change to the status quo, _apart from placing players into maps that are more further progressed_ . And there are some players who change what they are doing and work towards the meta. For example, in AB, players doing HPs will sometimes change what they are doing and help with the main part of the meta. > > "Intents" of players on meta maps are irrelevant. It is a meta map. Most players who want to be on a meta map are there because they want to do the meta, due to the rewards - particularly the meta-success rewards. The purpose of a meta map is for players to do the meta, otherwise there is no point in having a meta. > > Your comments ignore the fact that maps already close, apparently without reason. I have suggested a way to improve the timing of the map closures. You apparently want to retain the current system. > > We already have an example where a map closure occurs post-meta: Dragonstand. This means that a map closure post-meta test condition already exists. This also means that it might be possible for the closure trigger for Dragonstand to be extended to other meta maps, particularly Dragonfall and DWC. > > tl;dr > Player "intent" is not necessary for map closing triggers. II was thinking of a global function without taking into consideration a function for each map. Not sure what the backend looks like so they may have something where each map has its own instancing algorithm. As for meta maps, I don't do them on HoT maps, yet I go to them a lot when I need to. What I don't know is if it's possible to do anything on these maps without progressing the meta. If so then the intent point is moot. If not, say if going to do story only, or attempting some HP's only, or just getting vistas or adventures only, etc. would be intent that has nothing to do with meta events. I bring up multiple use cases only because programming without taking these things into account is where you get unintended b ehaviors that need to be fixed. Fixing a problem to create another problem that must be fixed isn't the way to go. "That's tomorrow's problem.""How do you think we got to today?" As for map closures, yes I did miss that. If it is true that maps are closing with entire squads still doing stuff that is definitely unintended behavior. I wonder if there's something about detecting the number and frequency of players leaving a map instance within a given time frame. Say if 10-15 players leave in quick succession that triggers something (numbers completely made up). If your programming this function based on player behavior in maps, that is where I bring up my points. How to create a function that identifies human intent without causing unintended behavior, such as maps closing for no reason. You can't just test based on players leaving or staying as that could still end up with the problematic behavior. I'm just pointing out that this is not a simple fix that can easily be done. This is a complex request. I'm all for it, I just want to point out realistic expectations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogue.8235 Posted September 19, 2020 Share Posted September 19, 2020 > @"Hesione.9412" said: > > @"Khisanth.2948" said: > > You could just ignore it at least for an hour. > > > > There is very very likely to be a bug in the system as well. I have gotten that popup in the middle of doing reset Ley Line Anomaly with a group big enough to cause crippling amounts of server lag. That was definitely not an instance lacking in players. > > I have been on a Dragonfall map where the kitten thing came up, and we were tier 2 on one camp and tier 1 on the other two. I swapped because I didn't know if an hour was long enough to do the rest of the meta and decided it probably wasn't. I ended up on a map where the camps weren't even captured. > > I've also had circumstances where I have changed maps two/three times in a row. I choose to go to another map, and then literally the next closing map warning appears within five minutes. > > The current system has a problem. It could be improved. > > @"DaFishBob.6518" said: > I remember these things showing up during the east Bjora marches meta and always throwing me on to a failing map when the map I was on would have succeeded. I genuinely thought Anet was trying to mess with it like it's Jormag trying to play tricks on us just like the Awakened did with the bounties on Sandswept Isles. Yeah these sound very annoying. This is where I'm not sure how it can be easily fixed. What's the input that's causing unintended closings? It seems to me that what has been suggested so far in this thread will result in similarly annoying behaviors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atomos.7593 Posted September 19, 2020 Share Posted September 19, 2020 > @"Rogue.8235" said: > > @"Hesione.9412" said: > > > @"Khisanth.2948" said: > > > You could just ignore it at least for an hour. > > > > > > There is very very likely to be a bug in the system as well. I have gotten that popup in the middle of doing reset Ley Line Anomaly with a group big enough to cause crippling amounts of server lag. That was definitely not an instance lacking in players. > > > > I have been on a Dragonfall map where the kitten thing came up, and we were tier 2 on one camp and tier 1 on the other two. I swapped because I didn't know if an hour was long enough to do the rest of the meta and decided it probably wasn't. I ended up on a map where the camps weren't even captured. > > > > I've also had circumstances where I have changed maps two/three times in a row. I choose to go to another map, and then literally the next closing map warning appears within five minutes. > > > > The current system has a problem. It could be improved. > > > > @"DaFishBob.6518" said: > > I remember these things showing up during the east Bjora marches meta and always throwing me on to a failing map when the map I was on would have succeeded. I genuinely thought Anet was trying to mess with it like it's Jormag trying to play tricks on us just like the Awakened did with the bounties on Sandswept Isles. > > > > Yeah these sound very annoying. This is where I'm not sure how it can be easily fixed. What's the input that's causing unintended closings? It seems to me that what has been suggested so far in this thread will result in similarly annoying behaviors. It's impossible to know exactly what all of the inputs are unless you are a developer at Anet. They will know what the inputs are and how to best configure them for this system. All we can do as players is report the problems and situations where they occur, so that any tweaks that Anet thinks may improve the problem may be implemented. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hesione.9412 Posted September 20, 2020 Share Posted September 20, 2020 > @"Khisanth.2948" said: > > @"Hesione.9412" said: > > _The problem is_ closing maps while players are actively doing metas. _Currently_, the "intent" of those players is _not taken into account_ by the system. The system puts up a closing map irrespective of what is going on. This causes a problem with players trying to get into/stay in maps that are working towards the meta. The _intent_ of players who are working towards the meta on an active map is currently _not_ taken into account. > > That leaves out the fact that the closing status is not set in stone. A map that is closing can switch back to not closing if it fills back up. There **was** a bug way back that caused that to be not true but that was fixed long ago. > I've experienced the closing map problem - even when the map was full for a meta - this calendar year. Repeatedly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khisanth.2948 Posted September 20, 2020 Share Posted September 20, 2020 > @"Hesione.9412" said: > > @"Khisanth.2948" said: > > > @"Hesione.9412" said: > > > _The problem is_ closing maps while players are actively doing metas. _Currently_, the "intent" of those players is _not taken into account_ by the system. The system puts up a closing map irrespective of what is going on. This causes a problem with players trying to get into/stay in maps that are working towards the meta. The _intent_ of players who are working towards the meta on an active map is currently _not_ taken into account. > > > > That leaves out the fact that the closing status is not set in stone. A map that is closing can switch back to not closing if it fills back up. There **was** a bug way back that caused that to be not true but that was fixed long ago. > > > > I've experienced the closing map problem - even when the map was full for a meta - this calendar year. Repeatedly. Maps can still close. The bug was that the closing status was irreversible, that is what was fixed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hesione.9412 Posted September 20, 2020 Share Posted September 20, 2020 > @"Khisanth.2948" said: > > @"Hesione.9412" said: > > > @"Khisanth.2948" said: > > > > @"Hesione.9412" said: > > > > _The problem is_ closing maps while players are actively doing metas. _Currently_, the "intent" of those players is _not taken into account_ by the system. The system puts up a closing map irrespective of what is going on. This causes a problem with players trying to get into/stay in maps that are working towards the meta. The _intent_ of players who are working towards the meta on an active map is currently _not_ taken into account. > > > > > > That leaves out the fact that the closing status is not set in stone. A map that is closing can switch back to not closing if it fills back up. There **was** a bug way back that caused that to be not true but that was fixed long ago. > > > > > > > I've experienced the closing map problem - even when the map was full for a meta - this calendar year. Repeatedly. > > Maps can still close. The bug was that the closing status was irreversible, that is what was fixed. The closing status on those maps _was_ irreversible. The map stayed closing even when people failed to get in via spamming join. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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