zengara.8301 Posted October 23, 2017 Author Share Posted October 23, 2017 > @Crossaber.8934 said: > > @Acheron.4576 said: > > > @Crossaber.8934 said: > > > Thief with shadow step never fit into samurai style, unless you are actually thinking about ninja. > > > > > > Samurai is a japanese warrior, they are fast and deadly warrior in heavy armor, they value honor a lot, a thief samurai with stealth and back stab is never any samurai-ish. > > > > That actually depends on what era of samurai we are talking, and what kind of samurai. For example ronin, which were lordless samurai rarely wore heavy armor and would wear cloth and/or leather. They also were faster than the older era samurai due to their lack of heavy armor. > > Older eras of samurai would focus more on high precision strike in short bursts since they are capable of taking blows and are often weighed down by their armor. Those precision strikes would be focused on hitting points where the opponent is more vulnerable and the armor doesn't cover very well. > > > > Also most/some samurai often carried more than one sword so it could go either way when it comes to great-sword or sword/sword. If we do get a great-sword though I hope it is a condi-weapon. We have enough power great-swords as it is. Ranger, Warrior, Guardian, Mesmer, Necromancer, etc are all mainly power focused. > > > > I personally would like something similar to older era samurai in style, but replace the heavy armor with shadow magic. There was a popular defensive ability called Shadow Form that I liked in gw1 and would enjoy seeing return that made all incoming attacks miss at a certain percentage for its duration. Maybe have that replace our steal mechanic and to be used to give us longer periods of safety to burst and escape once we are initiative starved. > > > > No matter new era or old era, it doesn't help that stealth, back stab, shadowstep from core thief doesn't go well with samurai-ish in any way. If it is the other way around, like if we have a core class named samurai with elite spec that give stealth/shadowstep/back stab to a samurai, a samurai + thiet, it will work! > > But we don't have a core named samurai, when a thief + warrior, it shouldn't give samurai as a result. I don't opposite a new elite as thief + warrior, give them enhanced armor buff and fight like a warrior to some extend, that will be great, give him another name instead of samurai, it is perfectly fine. well, the "Samurai" (I really only call it that because I see it as being more tanky) could very well have trait systems that do cancel stealth and buff after, or just removes the stealth but gives stab/reflect/retaliation or something instead of stealth, like with the deadeye that gives you possibilities for using skill 5 And f1 have been changed for a lot of classes, like scourges, I cant see why thief wouldnt be able to change that. I see it as 3 variations, like what they got going on with the weaver atm (dmg, heal or tank) Light high dps Greatsword weapon that looks like a katana if getting it from the actual specialization like other classes (Yasuo from League of Legends, maybe depends on combo, but primarily short bursts that do require movement and lock on enemy) ~not sure how medium tank would look like~ (but maybe uses stealth more offensively, instead of literally just being stealthy and then attack, they can use it for conditions to the enemy) Tanky: switches stealth to boons, mitigate dmg etc A combination of light and tanky would probably make it very interesting to use. Keep in mind, this is not a direct answer to what they should have done, but it is something I would have liked. It would give thief more variation, instead of being, and I quote from above "One shot pony". Deadeye does revolve very heavily on this fact, if you are not a 1 shot pony, you are very close to death. This formula for the thief/"samurai" would certainly make wvw more interesting, people wont just avoid thiefs for being annoying 1 shot ponies that cant be chased down. PvP this would give thief more meaning than just jump to the furthest contested point and possibly PvE (again, I do not PvE that often, but cant imagine it being less boring to do a Yasuo move than to snipe) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knyy.6427 Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 > @zengara.8301 said: > I dont know, I literally just wanted everything but sniper, since it is boring going from 1 high melee dps class to 1 high ranged dps class. Yea you lost me there. I get it, you play wvw where the dmg might be good, but in pve the dmg output of the ranged DPS is mediocre at very best. It is that bad. A lot of people wanted to snipe stuff and thieves didn't had that long range option. So it was kind of okay. Im not a big fan of it either, but it has something. Just hope the next elite spec will be melee again and we get a 2handed weapon or anything as long as it is no offhand weapon, because an offhand weapon only for a new thief spec would be so ridiculous bad (gameplay reason like uses initative instead of CDs, mostly auto attacks, no weapon swap). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turk.5460 Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 Dear everyone who wants greatsword for Thief: Please don't weeb my favorite profession. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zacchary.6183 Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 > @Asur.9178 said: > > @Zacchary.6183 said: > > > @Asur.9178 said: > > > > @zengara.8301 said: > > > > > @ZyniX.3589 said: > > > > > If you don't like it that's fine. Everyone isn't supposed to fall in love with every elite spec. Maybe the next thief elite will cater to your taste. I enjoy the Deadeye rifle even if it could use more damage. It does have decent burst and good boon sharing. > > > > > > > > Well, if I have to be 100% transparent, instead of depending on what is written between the lines, it would be cool to know others thoughts are about the snipers. > > > > And I personally do not think we need more damage :b Most people are experiencing 1 shot kill in WvW and 2-3 shot in SPvP; I would recomend you to watch this youtube video that shows you how to "use" a deadeye to its full potential > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Zerk amulet...nuff said. Any decent player, especially an opposing DD will kitten on it. > > > > > > Those pathetic auto damage is a joke. A lb SlB does a better job than this while having more sustain. > > > > > > There's a reason montages mean nothing. This is a great example of it. Big numbers mean little. > > > > > > Also, none of those players knew how to dodge/reflect/absorb/block. > > > > Dodging/reflecting/absorbing/blocking means nothing when you fail to notice the Deadeye setting up. And if the Deadeye knows what they are doing, you won't notice them. > > I could break down the entire video for you, but that isn't necessary...so I'll use the very first two kills. > > There's zero reasons for that necro to have not seen the DE running far/their home. He was not in stealth while running there. Hmmmm...I wonder what that could mean. Oh, were you kitten and didn't see it? Okay...pay attention to the sound. There's more than enough sound tells in this game. > > Oh, did you respawn and noticed your node just flipped? I wonder if there's an enemy there....hmmmmmm...sure must have flipped by itself after you just died to a DE. Surely there's no enemy at the point. /s > > DJ reveals you before shooting. The telegraphs are long and big enough for anyone not blind to see and react to it. > > Like I said, anyone can make a montage, especially with low skilled players. Doesn't make that elite spec/build good though. DE may be decent at trash tier PvP and open world PvE (it's a joke), but it's trash in competitive PvP AND hardcore PvE. It is especially bad when using rifle. > > PS: A glass-cannon 1-shot build like this for DD outperforms that 1-shot-1-trick pony DE. Doesn't mean it's good though. First Kill: The Deadeye was way out there and nobody in their right mind would go and chase someone 3k units out. The Deadeye also stealthed before he set up behind the point so there was no noticeable movement for the necro to catch. His Mug-traited Mark dealt barely noticeable damage to the Necro and it wasn't until the Deadeye crit for 18k that the Necro panicked. By the time he tried responding, he was put on his ass by the Deadeye. Second Kill: Same shit again. Necro's fault for trying to use the same strategy, though afterwards the necro knew the Deadeye was camping and brought a friend. Third and Fourth Kill: Friend made the same mistake the Necro did and was immediately put on his ass before the Necro could reach the Deadeye. The Deadeye cast Binding Shadow on the friend which knocked him down just before he was downed by a DJ. The necro was a noob but the friend couldn't have really done much anyways regardless if they had any skill to counter or not. And again, the Deadeye is hitting for 80% of both their health bars in under a second while still having enough ini to pull off another DJ. The rest of the game he was staying outside of the skirmishes and putting people on their ass, again dealing 13k+ to targets already occupied with combat. Not only did he effectively solo-defended a point but by the time the game was already decided he continued to make himself useful by +1ing. He did everything he was supposed to do as a Deadeye and ended up carrying easily. And in response to your PS: Apples to oranges, mate. * A daredevil can't start a fight with 10-20 shareable (and sometimes permanent) might. With Improv and Fire For Effect, a Deadeye can. * A daredevil can't range. A deadeye can with rifle. * A daredevil has to go glassy to deal insane damage. A deadeye can go valk/marauder and still maintain a crit rate of ~90% (Silent Scope, Fury, Signet of Agility) while pumping out 15K+ shots. * A daredevil has to rely on core Thief for stealthing needs. Deadeye only needs Sniper's Cover and Shadow Meld (maybe Shadow Gust). * A daredevil can't reliably spam stolen skills nor do those stolen skills provide much support. A deadeye can spam stolen skills and said skills do provide support in the form of boons (which can be shared through traits) and conditions. * A daredevil can't get much out of boon duration stats because it's access to boons is reliant on core thief. A daredevil can get more out of boon duration due to it's large access to boons, most of them gaining increased base duration based on the malice mechanic. --- * A deadeye can't really get into melee combat without going heavy on stealth. A daredevil doesn't really need stealth that much to survive. * A deadeye can waste precision due to the sheer amount of non-core Fury access it has and it's 20% crit rate bonus from Silent Scope's Sniper's Cover. A daredevil has to rely on core thief for fury and has no built in bonuses to increase crit rate. * A deadeye has to wait a little before bonuses accumulate enough for their damage to reach their max. A daredevil has their few bonuses right away and they can start a fight immediately. * A deadeye has to rely mostly on core thief for mobility. A daredevil is arguably the most mobile thing in the game in and out of combat with it's large access to swiftness. * A deadeye's stolen skill isn't as impactful as a core thief stolen skill because their utility is confined to boon/condition application. Core thief's stolen skills have a larger variety of utility that is both powerful and effective, even if it is situational. * Deadeye and rifle is still buggy. Daredevil is fleshed out. :P Also DE isn't a "1-trick pony" but the current thief meta is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sobx.1758 Posted October 25, 2017 Share Posted October 25, 2017 > @zengara.8301 said: >I would recomend you to watch this youtube video that shows you how to "use" a deadeye to its full potential > "How to use deadeye to its full potential". ...in silver :D > @Zacchary.6183 said: > > @Asur.9178 said: > > > @Zacchary.6183 said: > > > > @Asur.9178 said: > > > > > @zengara.8301 said: > > > > > > @ZyniX.3589 said: > > > > > > If you don't like it that's fine. Everyone isn't supposed to fall in love with every elite spec. Maybe the next thief elite will cater to your taste. I enjoy the Deadeye rifle even if it could use more damage. It does have decent burst and good boon sharing. > > > > > > > > > > Well, if I have to be 100% transparent, instead of depending on what is written between the lines, it would be cool to know others thoughts are about the snipers. > > > > > And I personally do not think we need more damage :b Most people are experiencing 1 shot kill in WvW and 2-3 shot in SPvP; I would recomend you to watch this youtube video that shows you how to "use" a deadeye to its full potential > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Zerk amulet...nuff said. Any decent player, especially an opposing DD will kitten on it. > > > > > > > > Those pathetic auto damage is a joke. A lb SlB does a better job than this while having more sustain. > > > > > > > > There's a reason montages mean nothing. This is a great example of it. Big numbers mean little. > > > > > > > > Also, none of those players knew how to dodge/reflect/absorb/block. > > > > > > Dodging/reflecting/absorbing/blocking means nothing when you fail to notice the Deadeye setting up. And if the Deadeye knows what they are doing, you won't notice them. > > > > I could break down the entire video for you, but that isn't necessary...so I'll use the very first two kills. > > > > There's zero reasons for that necro to have not seen the DE running far/their home. He was not in stealth while running there. Hmmmm...I wonder what that could mean. Oh, were you kitten and didn't see it? Okay...pay attention to the sound. There's more than enough sound tells in this game. > > > > Oh, did you respawn and noticed your node just flipped? I wonder if there's an enemy there....hmmmmmm...sure must have flipped by itself after you just died to a DE. Surely there's no enemy at the point. /s > > > > DJ reveals you before shooting. The telegraphs are long and big enough for anyone not blind to see and react to it. > > > > Like I said, anyone can make a montage, especially with low skilled players. Doesn't make that elite spec/build good though. DE may be decent at trash tier PvP and open world PvE (it's a joke), but it's trash in competitive PvP AND hardcore PvE. It is especially bad when using rifle. > > > > PS: A glass-cannon 1-shot build like this for DD outperforms that 1-shot-1-trick pony DE. Doesn't mean it's good though. > > First Kill: The Deadeye was way out there and nobody in their right mind would go and chase someone 3k units out. The Deadeye also stealthed before he set up behind the point so there was no noticeable movement for the necro to catch. His Mug-traited Mark dealt barely noticeable damage to the Necro and it wasn't until the Deadeye crit for 18k that the Necro panicked. By the time he tried responding, he was put on his kitten by the Deadeye. "dealt barely noticable damage"?? You shouldn't need to be hit with a "mug traited mark" to notice the mark in the first place and the nectro just didn't react for the whole setup, dodging after getting hit with DJ, lmao. The thing about DE is that, obviously, it's bursty and CAN work. The problem is that it will work mostly against bad players and that's not the way to rate a spec imo. Explaining that the enemy didn't notice mug-traited mark because it dealt low damage, please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zacchary.6183 Posted October 25, 2017 Share Posted October 25, 2017 > @Sobx.1758 said: > "dealt barely noticable damage"?? You shouldn't need to be hit with a "mug traited mark" to notice the mark in the first place and the nectro just didn't react for the whole setup, dodging after getting hit with DJ, lmao. > > The thing about DE is that, obviously, it's bursty and CAN work. The problem is that it will work mostly against bad players and that's not the way to rate a spec imo. Explaining that the enemy didn't notice mug-traited mark because it dealt low damage, please. With a 1 inch health "orb", dealing 8.4% of one's hp will barely put any black on it. And I did mention the necro was a noob. Seeing as how Mug + DJ + Deadly Aim downed them, they were most likely glassy with some vit runes. While I do agree with you on most points, players will be downed regardless of their skill level if they get bursted mid-skirmish or by surprise. Unless the enemy team coordinates to keep pressure on the Deadeye, this will not change. Also it would help if the Deadeye knew what they were doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jugglemonkey.8741 Posted October 26, 2017 Share Posted October 26, 2017 > @Asur.9178 said: > > @zengara.8301 said: > > > @ZyniX.3589 said: > > > If you don't like it that's fine. Everyone isn't supposed to fall in love with every elite spec. Maybe the next thief elite will cater to your taste. I enjoy the Deadeye rifle even if it could use more damage. It does have decent burst and good boon sharing. > > > > Well, if I have to be 100% transparent, instead of depending on what is written between the lines, it would be cool to know others thoughts are about the snipers. > > And I personally do not think we need more damage :b Most people are experiencing 1 shot kill in WvW and 2-3 shot in SPvP; I would recomend you to watch this youtube video that shows you how to "use" a deadeye to its full potential > > > > > > Zerk amulet...nuff said. Any decent player, especially an opposing DD will kitten on it. > > Those pathetic auto damage is a joke. A lb SlB does a better job than this while having more sustain. > > There's a reason montages mean nothing. This is a great example of it. Big numbers mean little. > > Also, none of those players knew how to dodge/reflect/absorb/block. Minor point, but this wasn't a montage, so while montages often mean nothing this is worth a little more than that. Did you actually watch the video? Your other points are valid tho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vayne.8563 Posted October 26, 2017 Share Posted October 26, 2017 > @zengara.8301 said: > yeah, that part was very subjective, I believe that the "samurai thief" class would have more depht, even if saying the same words as the snipers from shadows order, other might believe otherwise, really does not matter in the end since it is very subjective. > > My focus point was the reasoning for choosing sniper, since everyone else since HoT (Even WP I think) wanted a sniper. The primary reason for choosing a frontliner was of cause because how much more worth the thiefs could be in different areas of the game. You're not looking at this from a game design point of view. You're looking at it from a this is my preference, this would be cool, I'd be more interested in this point of view. What does a samurai give the thief that it doesn't already have? They can use sword. They can use staff. But the long range options for thieves have always been lacklustre. The purpose of elite specs is to plug holes. To give people a new way to play the class. Creativity in game creation works without the boundaries of what you need to advance the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zengara.8301 Posted October 28, 2017 Author Share Posted October 28, 2017 > @Sobx.1758 said: > > @zengara.8301 said: > >I would recomend you to watch this youtube video that shows you how to "use" a deadeye to its full potential > > > > "How to use deadeye to its full potential". > ...in silver :D > > > @Zacchary.6183 said: > > > @Asur.9178 said: > > > > @Zacchary.6183 said: > > > > > @Asur.9178 said: > > > > > > @zengara.8301 said: > > > > > > > @ZyniX.3589 said: > > > > > > > If you don't like it that's fine. Everyone isn't supposed to fall in love with every elite spec. Maybe the next thief elite will cater to your taste. I enjoy the Deadeye rifle even if it could use more damage. It does have decent burst and good boon sharing. > > > > > > > > > > > > Well, if I have to be 100% transparent, instead of depending on what is written between the lines, it would be cool to know others thoughts are about the snipers. > > > > > > And I personally do not think we need more damage :b Most people are experiencing 1 shot kill in WvW and 2-3 shot in SPvP; I would recomend you to watch this youtube video that shows you how to "use" a deadeye to its full potential > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Zerk amulet...nuff said. Any decent player, especially an opposing DD will kitten on it. > > > > > > > > > > Those pathetic auto damage is a joke. A lb SlB does a better job than this while having more sustain. > > > > > > > > > > There's a reason montages mean nothing. This is a great example of it. Big numbers mean little. > > > > > > > > > > Also, none of those players knew how to dodge/reflect/absorb/block. > > > > > > > > Dodging/reflecting/absorbing/blocking means nothing when you fail to notice the Deadeye setting up. And if the Deadeye knows what they are doing, you won't notice them. > > > > > > I could break down the entire video for you, but that isn't necessary...so I'll use the very first two kills. > > > > > > There's zero reasons for that necro to have not seen the DE running far/their home. He was not in stealth while running there. Hmmmm...I wonder what that could mean. Oh, were you kitten and didn't see it? Okay...pay attention to the sound. There's more than enough sound tells in this game. > > > > > > Oh, did you respawn and noticed your node just flipped? I wonder if there's an enemy there....hmmmmmm...sure must have flipped by itself after you just died to a DE. Surely there's no enemy at the point. /s > > > > > > DJ reveals you before shooting. The telegraphs are long and big enough for anyone not blind to see and react to it. > > > > > > Like I said, anyone can make a montage, especially with low skilled players. Doesn't make that elite spec/build good though. DE may be decent at trash tier PvP and open world PvE (it's a joke), but it's trash in competitive PvP AND hardcore PvE. It is especially bad when using rifle. > > > > > > PS: A glass-cannon 1-shot build like this for DD outperforms that 1-shot-1-trick pony DE. Doesn't mean it's good though. > > > > First Kill: The Deadeye was way out there and nobody in their right mind would go and chase someone 3k units out. The Deadeye also stealthed before he set up behind the point so there was no noticeable movement for the necro to catch. His Mug-traited Mark dealt barely noticeable damage to the Necro and it wasn't until the Deadeye crit for 18k that the Necro panicked. By the time he tried responding, he was put on his kitten by the Deadeye. > > "dealt barely noticable damage"?? You shouldn't need to be hit with a "mug traited mark" to notice the mark in the first place and the nectro just didn't react for the whole setup, dodging after getting hit with DJ, lmao. > > The thing about DE is that, obviously, it's bursty and CAN work. The problem is that it will work mostly against bad players and that's not the way to rate a spec imo. Explaining that the enemy didn't notice mug-traited mark because it dealt low damage, please. > @Vayne.8563 said: > > @zengara.8301 said: > > yeah, that part was very subjective, I believe that the "samurai thief" class would have more depht, even if saying the same words as the snipers from shadows order, other might believe otherwise, really does not matter in the end since it is very subjective. > > > > My focus point was the reasoning for choosing sniper, since everyone else since HoT (Even WP I think) wanted a sniper. The primary reason for choosing a frontliner was of cause because how much more worth the thiefs could be in different areas of the game. > > You're not looking at this from a game design point of view. You're looking at it from a this is my preference, this would be cool, I'd be more interested in this point of view. What does a samurai give the thief that it doesn't already have? They can use sword. They can use staff. But the long range options for thieves have always been lacklustre. > > The purpose of elite specs is to plug holes. To give people a new way to play the class. Creativity in game creation works without the boundaries of what you need to advance the game. No, it is the other way around. A-Net stated several times that it was not to give purpose or plug holes, but just because they find it interesting in several of their videos, and also I believe ive read it on these forum chats as well. Beside, that second part is the one that is not subjective "looking at it from a this is my preference" as you wrote. As mentioned above, only part of the game that does benefit thief for having sniper traits, is roaming in WvW. All the other modes at the very least suffer from it, you could argue that SPvP does not, but others on higher tiers do highly recommend not going Dead Eye if you are serious about SPvP. In short, deadeye is simply worse in every game mode beside roaming 1v1 since you are just ranged thief with less stealth and runaway tactics (if you are going after best builds, you can of cause still make 100 different builds, but it would just mean you lack other stuff, I only write this because I might need to repeat this, even though it should be fairly obvious and should not require a respond) I should also make this very clear: Samurai would plug most holes in most game modes, ONLY reason why they made snipers, is because people really wanted a rifle, they simply did it to cater to the fans (also a bit led by woodenpotatoes when he wrote it, more people wrote it on the forums, until it kinda came up every 3 threads, which is kinda annoying.....personally not a fan of using once position to change a game, specially if it is just for something that wont really benifit the game or make it more interesting) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barzah.8019 Posted October 28, 2017 Share Posted October 28, 2017 oopsie, someone barrely touch deadeye is trying to make point over here If you play correctly, Deadeye rifle by far is the most stealthiest spec that thief could have. By utilizing this aspect, you could n0scope everything that move and killable on PvE, sPvP, and WvWvW. Stop rolling and start spamming stealth, that's how you utilize Deadeye properly Also there is no "samurai" type of weapon gw 2 btw (probably one of the greatsword mode, but it still count as greatsword, not a katana or smth) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zengara.8301 Posted October 29, 2017 Author Share Posted October 29, 2017 > @Barzah.8019 said: > oopsie, someone barrely touch deadeye is trying to make point over here > If you play correctly, Deadeye rifle by far is the most stealthiest spec that thief could have. By utilizing this aspect, you could n0scope everything that move and killable on PvE, sPvP, and WvWvW. Stop rolling and start spamming stealth, that's how you utilize Deadeye properly > > Also there is no "samurai" type of weapon gw 2 btw (probably one of the greatsword mode, but it still count as greatsword, not a katana or smth) Well based on weapon....if you just look at thief alone that is not really a reason. Daredevil is basically Wukong or monk, before that staffs were used for long range only. There are probably a lot of examples in the game. As mentioned, Deadeye rifle is bad for most if not all matches on high tier, of cause anyone can again make a tank thief and go into PvP, but that does not make them effective unless if carried or opponent decided to do something like that as well. WvW roaming is the only option, and there you have to be lucky not to meet a group of people, you can of cause go full stealth utillity, but it wont hold as much stealth as others like DD or normal thief, even if you do go all out stealth, it will decrease your dmg by A LOT. As mentioned above, only "noobs" use shadow refuge, and there is a reason why that person said that, you lose a lot, and it will rarely help you, beside the fact that "you only play to stop others from playing", ganking people who are going to their wvw group while having enough stealth to get out if that person was actually also wanting to gank (a mesmer or something) I didnt mention the PvE scene yet, because it is obvious, you either die by AOE, since you are locked in a position, or it is a fight where you really never needed anything to fight with more than having a lvl 30...w/e weapon, like Tequatle. But for fractals, raids etc it is a lost cause. You can come up with a lot of niche moment that might have happend to you in the past 4 years, but it wont neglect that this class apparently is somewhat of a waste if you think about usability.....it is fun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimheart.2853 Posted October 29, 2017 Share Posted October 29, 2017 Edgy out-of-place weeb instead of an edgy completely authentic sniper? No, thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrHome.1920 Posted October 29, 2017 Share Posted October 29, 2017 > @zengara.8301 said: > Well, if I have to be 100% transparent, instead of depending on what is written between the lines, it would be cool to know others thoughts are about the snipers. > And I personally do not think we need more damage :b Most people are experiencing 1 shot kill in WvW and 2-3 shot in SPvP; I would recomend you to watch this youtube video that shows you how to "use" a deadeye to its full potential > Stopped watching when I saw the necro putting all 4 marks at his feet (can be negated with one single dodge). What is this? Bronze T3? And of course he did not notice: - he got marked - the super obvious telegraph of DJ (soundeffect and red beam) Players eating a DJ with a full endurance bar are the same players that are eating a Grave Digger with a full endurance bar. At this "skill"-level there is no room for balance talks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zengara.8301 Posted October 29, 2017 Author Share Posted October 29, 2017 yeaaah, thats very subjective again. I personally find it the other way around. Though the out of place part is a good touch, since I personally havent dwelled into that in the comments. But I probably do not need to dwell way into it, because most who wanted a sniper usually got the response of it being way out of place, that the scope would not make any sense in this fantasy game, and why even have a stealthy ranger etc. Furhter undeniable truth would be that gw1 showcased "samurais", hairdo and all: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zengara.8301 Posted October 29, 2017 Author Share Posted October 29, 2017 > @KrHome.1920 said: > > @zengara.8301 said: > > Well, if I have to be 100% transparent, instead of depending on what is written between the lines, it would be cool to know others thoughts are about the snipers. > > And I personally do not think we need more damage :b Most people are experiencing 1 shot kill in WvW and 2-3 shot in SPvP; I would recomend you to watch this youtube video that shows you how to "use" a deadeye to its full potential > > > Stopped watching when I saw the necro putting all 4 marks at his feet (can be negated with one single dodge). What is this? Bronze T3? > > And of course he did not notice: > - he got marked > - the super obvious telegraph of DJ (soundeffect and red beam) > > Players eating a DJ with a full endurance bar are the same players that are eating a Grave Digger with a full endurance bar. At this "skill"-level there is no room for balance talks. > > Just to stop the responses of this video, this video was posted literally 10 days after Path of Fire came out, which of cause indicates that he must have played vs these opponents 10 or less days after every class came out, most likely before the 10 days, since I find it hard to imagine recording, editing and posting on the same day Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crossaber.8934 Posted October 29, 2017 Share Posted October 29, 2017 > @Acheron.4576 said: > > @Crossaber.8934 said: > > > > No matter new era or old era, it doesn't help that stealth, back stab, shadowstep from core thief doesn't go well with samurai-ish in any way. If it is the other way around, like if we have a core class named samurai with elite spec that give stealth/shadowstep/back stab to a samurai, a samurai + thiet, it will work! > > > > But we don't have a core named samurai, when a thief + warrior, it shouldn't give samurai as a result. I don't opposite a new elite as thief + warrior, give them enhanced armor buff and fight like a warrior to some extend, that will be great, give him another name instead of samurai, it is perfectly fine. > > That isn't necessarily true. Thief as a profession is a burst type class in its core due to the initiative system. This works really well with the samurai style of fighting. They tend to use bursting strikes with emphasis on precision and/or speedy strikes. (think about skills like Iai strikes) > > Looking at utilities and weapon skills from core to determine whether or not it will suit the profession undermines the whole point of elite specs which is to give different concepts for the same or similar mechanics. Like how deadeye gives a mark for more focus on range and the use of shadow magic or the necromancer who got a new shroud and shouts with reaper. Functionality is more or less the same, but the approach is different. The same could be said for a Samurai-esque Thief elite spec. In functionality and style it clicks perfectly and would be a new approach to the bursty play-style. > > I personally think if we do get an elite spec like this, I'd hope it would be more condi-focused. Maybe even have an elite or utility skill that allows you to "detonate" your conditions to do burst damage. (Think about a scene when two samurai clash and a few moments past and they just burst all at once and blood comes out from all their injuries.) Not only is pretty much every other great-sword user power focused, but it would help deviate from the cliche samurai archetype and becomes its own thing. > What you described sound more or less like an Ninja instead of Samurai. Samurai is best made as elite for Rev or War, while ninja, a more condi dps focused elite spec is perfect match with thief. Samurai don't stealth, but stealth is very thief-like and ninja-ish mechanic. Since you mentioned Deadeye, it has different steal mechanic, and different play style, but a deadeye still require a lot of stealth in order to be effective, it is still very thief-ish. To make a thief into a samurai, unless lockout self stealth as a samurai, with a heavy reworked samurai mechanic like reduce damage received, some block etc. And it seems very unlikely.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crossaber.8934 Posted October 29, 2017 Share Posted October 29, 2017 > @zengara.8301 said: > yeaaah, thats very subjective again. I personally find it the other way around. Though the out of place part is a good touch, since I personally havent dwelled into that in the comments. But I probably do not need to dwell way into it, because most who wanted a sniper usually got the response of it being way out of place, that the scope would not make any sense in this fantasy game, and why even have a stealthy ranger etc. > Furhter undeniable truth would be that gw1 showcased "samurais", hairdo and all: > It is actually reminds me Ninja instead of Samurai. I always think he is a ninja/assassin since faction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zengara.8301 Posted October 29, 2017 Author Share Posted October 29, 2017 > @Crossaber.8934 said: > > @Acheron.4576 said: > > > @Crossaber.8934 said: > > > > > > No matter new era or old era, it doesn't help that stealth, back stab, shadowstep from core thief doesn't go well with samurai-ish in any way. If it is the other way around, like if we have a core class named samurai with elite spec that give stealth/shadowstep/back stab to a samurai, a samurai + thiet, it will work! > > > > > > But we don't have a core named samurai, when a thief + warrior, it shouldn't give samurai as a result. I don't opposite a new elite as thief + warrior, give them enhanced armor buff and fight like a warrior to some extend, that will be great, give him another name instead of samurai, it is perfectly fine. > > > > That isn't necessarily true. Thief as a profession is a burst type class in its core due to the initiative system. This works really well with the samurai style of fighting. They tend to use bursting strikes with emphasis on precision and/or speedy strikes. (think about skills like Iai strikes) > > > > Looking at utilities and weapon skills from core to determine whether or not it will suit the profession undermines the whole point of elite specs which is to give different concepts for the same or similar mechanics. Like how deadeye gives a mark for more focus on range and the use of shadow magic or the necromancer who got a new shroud and shouts with reaper. Functionality is more or less the same, but the approach is different. The same could be said for a Samurai-esque Thief elite spec. In functionality and style it clicks perfectly and would be a new approach to the bursty play-style. > > > > I personally think if we do get an elite spec like this, I'd hope it would be more condi-focused. Maybe even have an elite or utility skill that allows you to "detonate" your conditions to do burst damage. (Think about a scene when two samurai clash and a few moments past and they just burst all at once and blood comes out from all their injuries.) Not only is pretty much every other great-sword user power focused, but it would help deviate from the cliche samurai archetype and becomes its own thing. > > > > What you described sound more or less like an Ninja instead of Samurai. Samurai is best made as elite for Rev or War, while ninja, a more condi dps focused elite spec is perfect match with thief. Samurai don't stealth, but stealth is very thief-like and ninja-ish mechanic. > > Since you mentioned Deadeye, it has different steal mechanic, and different play style, but a deadeye still require a lot of stealth in order to be effective, it is still very thief-ish. To make a thief into a samurai, unless lockout self stealth as a samurai, with a heavy reworked samurai mechanic like reduce damage received, some block etc. And it seems very unlikely.... Just wanted you to read what I wrote about this subject, as mentioned above. Though there are already classes like ranger that have been totally reworked from a high dmg "pew pew" class to the beast healer in the game, I am not a programmer, but based on a objective stand of what have been changed, it doesnt seem like a huge change as these other classes, some "like necro" only had a f1 on suddenly got up to f5 now, the rest is a copy paste that again do very much touch on your response: well, the "Samurai" (I really only call it that because I see it as being more tanky) could very well have trait systems that do cancel stealth and buff after, or just removes the stealth but gives stab/reflect/retaliation or something instead of stealth, like with the deadeye that gives you possibilities for using skill 5 And f1 have been changed for a lot of classes, like scourges, I cant see why thief wouldnt be able to change that. I see it as 3 variations, like what they got going on with the weaver atm (dmg, heal or tank) Light high dps Greatsword weapon that looks like a katana if getting it from the actual specialization like other classes (Yasuo from League of Legends, maybe depends on combo, but primarily short bursts that do require movement and lock on enemy) ~not sure how medium tank would look like~ (but maybe uses stealth more offensively, instead of literally just being stealthy and then attack, they can use it for conditions to the enemy) Tanky: switches stealth to boons, mitigate dmg etc A combination of light and tanky would probably make it very interesting to use. Keep in mind, this is not a direct answer to what they should have done, but it is something I would have liked. It would give thief more variation, instead of being, and I quote from above "One shot pony". Deadeye does revolve very heavily on this fact, if you are not a 1 shot pony, you are very close to death. This formula for the thief/"samurai" would certainly make wvw more interesting, people wont just avoid thiefs for being annoying 1 shot ponies that cant be chased down. PvP this would give thief more meaning than just jump to the furthest contested point and possibly PvE (again, I do not PvE that often, but cant imagine it being less boring to do a Yasuo move than to snipe) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crossaber.8934 Posted October 29, 2017 Share Posted October 29, 2017 > @zengara.8301 said: > > @Crossaber.8934 said: > > > @Acheron.4576 said: > > > > @Crossaber.8934 said: > > > > > > > > No matter new era or old era, it doesn't help that stealth, back stab, shadowstep from core thief doesn't go well with samurai-ish in any way. If it is the other way around, like if we have a core class named samurai with elite spec that give stealth/shadowstep/back stab to a samurai, a samurai + thiet, it will work! > > > > > > > > But we don't have a core named samurai, when a thief + warrior, it shouldn't give samurai as a result. I don't opposite a new elite as thief + warrior, give them enhanced armor buff and fight like a warrior to some extend, that will be great, give him another name instead of samurai, it is perfectly fine. > > > > > > That isn't necessarily true. Thief as a profession is a burst type class in its core due to the initiative system. This works really well with the samurai style of fighting. They tend to use bursting strikes with emphasis on precision and/or speedy strikes. (think about skills like Iai strikes) > > > > > > Looking at utilities and weapon skills from core to determine whether or not it will suit the profession undermines the whole point of elite specs which is to give different concepts for the same or similar mechanics. Like how deadeye gives a mark for more focus on range and the use of shadow magic or the necromancer who got a new shroud and shouts with reaper. Functionality is more or less the same, but the approach is different. The same could be said for a Samurai-esque Thief elite spec. In functionality and style it clicks perfectly and would be a new approach to the bursty play-style. > > > > > > I personally think if we do get an elite spec like this, I'd hope it would be more condi-focused. Maybe even have an elite or utility skill that allows you to "detonate" your conditions to do burst damage. (Think about a scene when two samurai clash and a few moments past and they just burst all at once and blood comes out from all their injuries.) Not only is pretty much every other great-sword user power focused, but it would help deviate from the cliche samurai archetype and becomes its own thing. > > > > > > > What you described sound more or less like an Ninja instead of Samurai. Samurai is best made as elite for Rev or War, while ninja, a more condi dps focused elite spec is perfect match with thief. Samurai don't stealth, but stealth is very thief-like and ninja-ish mechanic. > > > > Since you mentioned Deadeye, it has different steal mechanic, and different play style, but a deadeye still require a lot of stealth in order to be effective, it is still very thief-ish. To make a thief into a samurai, unless lockout self stealth as a samurai, with a heavy reworked samurai mechanic like reduce damage received, some block etc. And it seems very unlikely.... > > Just wanted you to read what I wrote about this subject, as mentioned above. Though there are already classes like ranger that have been totally reworked from a high dmg "pew pew" class to the beast healer in the game, I am not a programmer, but based on a objective stand of what have been changed, it doesnt seem like a huge change as these other classes, some "like necro" only had a f1 on suddenly got up to f5 now, the rest is a copy paste that again do very much touch on your response: > > well, the "Samurai" (I really only call it that because I see it as being more tanky) could very well have trait systems that do cancel stealth and buff after, or just removes the stealth but gives stab/reflect/retaliation or something instead of stealth, like with the deadeye that gives you possibilities for using skill 5 > And f1 have been changed for a lot of classes, like scourges, I cant see why thief wouldnt be able to change that. > I see it as 3 variations, like what they got going on with the weaver atm (dmg, heal or tank) > > Light high dps > Greatsword weapon that looks like a katana if getting it from the actual specialization like other classes (Yasuo from League of Legends, maybe depends on combo, but primarily short bursts that do require movement and lock on enemy) > > ~not sure how medium tank would look like~ (but maybe uses stealth more offensively, instead of literally just being stealthy and then attack, they can use it for conditions to the enemy) > > Tanky: > switches stealth to boons, mitigate dmg etc > > A combination of light and tanky would probably make it very interesting to use. Keep in mind, this is not a direct answer to what they should have done, but it is something I would have liked. It would give thief more variation, instead of being, and I quote from above "One shot pony". Deadeye does revolve very heavily on this fact, if you are not a 1 shot pony, you are very close to death. > This formula for the thief/"samurai" would certainly make wvw more interesting, people wont just avoid thiefs for being annoying 1 shot ponies that cant be chased down. PvP this would give thief more meaning than just jump to the furthest contested point and possibly PvE (again, I do not PvE that often, but cant imagine it being less boring to do a Yasuo move than to snipe) I understand your point of view, if Samurai is made like "Berserker", which is a "Samurai mode" to thief, there are still out of samurai mode that allow a "Samurai" to use skill to go stealth (besides using finisher), it is a very unhonorable action for being a samurai. Unless the mechanic is not a mode, instead it block out all stealth skill for the thief to be a Samurai. Otherwise, you can name such a new thief elite whatever you want but samurai. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barzah.8019 Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 1. you don't need to be a "tank" in order to properly use deadeye 2. stop trying to jam "daredevil" tactic to DE since both has different way of play 3. you can mark some random guy and farm malice for a bit, then use DJ on the other guy that doesn't pay attention to u 4. since rifle spec got that annoying "out of range" and "obstructed" debug, i suggest not to relying on DJ all the time. Try switching between deadly aim and triple tap for flushing your enemy while forcing them to use their precious cooldown skill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zengara.8301 Posted October 30, 2017 Author Share Posted October 30, 2017 > @Crossaber.8934 said: > > @zengara.8301 said: > > yeaaah, thats very subjective again. I personally find it the other way around. Though the out of place part is a good touch, since I personally havent dwelled into that in the comments. But I probably do not need to dwell way into it, because most who wanted a sniper usually got the response of it being way out of place, that the scope would not make any sense in this fantasy game, and why even have a stealthy ranger etc. > > Furhter undeniable truth would be that gw1 showcased "samurais", hairdo and all: > > > > It is actually reminds me Ninja instead of Samurai. I always think he is a ninja/assassin since faction. ohh sorry, posted actually time on video, but the whole video came up. It was actually the people bursting in (time; 1:23) I was thinking about, I very much agree that he would be a ninja Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cynz.9437 Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 Anyone remember commando April joke? Well we got April joke for elite spec. Instead of giving thief another role, they gave the joke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zacchary.6183 Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 > @Cynz.9437 said: > Anyone remember commando April joke? Well we got April joke for elite spec. Instead of giving thief another role, they gave the joke. Commando was overpowered though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor Hide.6345 Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 > @Zacchary.6183 said: > > @Cynz.9437 said: > > Anyone remember commando April joke? Well we got April joke for elite spec. Instead of giving thief another role, they gave the joke. > > Commando was overpowered though. I still want the costumes they used and the ability to call in an air strike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo G.4501 Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 > @Asur.9178 said: > > @zengara.8301 said: > > > @ZyniX.3589 said: > > > If you don't like it that's fine. Everyone isn't supposed to fall in love with every elite spec. Maybe the next thief elite will cater to your taste. I enjoy the Deadeye rifle even if it could use more damage. It does have decent burst and good boon sharing. > > > > Well, if I have to be 100% transparent, instead of depending on what is written between the lines, it would be cool to know others thoughts are about the snipers. > > And I personally do not think we need more damage :b Most people are experiencing 1 shot kill in WvW and 2-3 shot in SPvP; I would recomend you to watch this youtube video that shows you how to "use" a deadeye to its full potential > > > > > > Zerk amulet...nuff said. Any decent player, especially an opposing DD will kitten on it. > > Those pathetic auto damage is a joke. A lb SlB does a better job than this while having more sustain. > > There's a reason montages mean nothing. This is a great example of it. Big numbers mean little. > > Also, none of those players knew how to dodge/reflect/absorb/block. That wasn't a montage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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