Seera.5916 Posted December 4, 2020 Share Posted December 4, 2020 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Seera.5916" said: > > I don't know the reasons the others have but to me those unlocks go against the whole core of playing video games in the first place. What's the point of buying a game that you're only going to pay more to bypass the actual playing of it. > > Seems to me the point is to give people choice on playing the parts of the game they **want** to play and not being subjected to the parts they don't for a fee. Opening one's real life wallet should not be an option. As for mastery points, they've already done this in game. They put in more mastery points than are needed to fully unlock everything and by making the mastery system account based and not character based. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nerox.8731 Posted December 4, 2020 Share Posted December 4, 2020 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Seera.5916" said: > > I don't know the reasons the others have but to me those unlocks go against the whole core of playing video games in the first place. What's the point of buying a game that you're only going to pay more to bypass the actual playing of it. > > Seems to me the point is to give people choice on playing the parts of the game they **want** to play and not being subjected to the parts they don't for a fee. The difference is that this is a multiplayer game where the actions you make indirectly affect others as well. This game would feel incredibly cheap if people could bypass everything "because they don't feel like it". Any sense of accomplishment or progression would also be diminished for everyone else, even if it does not affect them directly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veprovina.4876 Posted December 4, 2020 Share Posted December 4, 2020 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Seera.5916" said: > > I don't know the reasons the others have but to me those unlocks go against the whole core of playing video games in the first place. What's the point of buying a game that you're only going to pay more to bypass the actual playing of it. > > Seems to me the point is to give people choice on playing the parts of the game they **want** to play and not being subjected to the parts they don't for a fee. Now *that's* a slippery slope that never ends well, and that's proven in games. Once you start selling progress in game, what usually tends to happen is that all future content needs to account for that, and they start making it grindy because it can otherwise easily be bypassed with cash. Which puts non paying players at a huge disadvantage and provides them with an unrealistic obstacle. Some developers actively then *want* to put in more grindy content to incentivize paying through the shop because "it sold well". Then future content starts to resolve around microtransactions, and in the worst cases, you buy an expansion and still some content is gated behind microtransactions because the bar is set so high that realistically, without paying for it, you won't ever complete it. Once whales start getting interest in the game, then it starts affecting everyone, people who never wanted that start getting cross with the company and leave, and the game just slowly dies. The moral of the story is - you should never base your game around cash whales, especially not after the original idea wasn't that, and you've gained a following of people who like it "as is". Realistically, a really small amount of people would ever buy mastery points, and depending on what future masteries anet puts in and how important those turn out to be - more people would geel obligated to buy them to get a head start. Then anet starts selling another progression element "for those who want it", like heart completion. Then POI unlocks, they're not a mandatory purchase, you can just play the game and have them, but you know "for those who want it". Then time gated materials cause hey you don't need those but "for those who want it" here's a bundle. Then after that, don't want to complete the mount quests? Here's a raptor in the cash shop. No not the skin, the raptor with all its masteries unlocked. We also offer a bundle of other mounts with masteries unlocked - here you go! Need skirmish tickets for legendary armor? We sell them by the thousands, you don't even have to play WvW for them! All who oppose mastery points seling in the game, don't oppose "just" mastery points, they oppose ALL progression and "convenience but really progression" items in the shop. Because once just *one* of those stuff starts to happen, it usually devolves into a bloated MTX shop with all the game's stuff available for purchase but you know "for those who want it". Then a new player walks into the game, and sees the mess, and how fast do you think they're going to click that uninstall button? Word goes around, new players that aren't cash whales (most aren't), start to see it's bloated with MTX, and never try the game. Population declines and the game dies. This is pretty extreme but hey, "for those who want it". And before you say "NOoooo only mastery points nothing else", you really think it'll stop there? Come on... Once the game starts selling their progression, if it isn't nipped in the bud and stoped, it only gets worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted December 4, 2020 Share Posted December 4, 2020 > @"Seera.5916" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"Seera.5916" said: > > > I don't know the reasons the others have but to me those unlocks go against the whole core of playing video games in the first place. What's the point of buying a game that you're only going to pay more to bypass the actual playing of it. > > > > Seems to me the point is to give people choice on playing the parts of the game they **want** to play and not being subjected to the parts they don't for a fee. > > Opening one's real life wallet should not be an option. OK ... but it already is an option ... Anet has ALREADY opened that Pandora's Box ... so sure express your opinion but it's hard to see how that opinion is relevant to the game when Anet has already moved past the 'shouldn't be an option to buy progression' issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted December 4, 2020 Share Posted December 4, 2020 > @"Nerox.8731" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"Seera.5916" said: > > > I don't know the reasons the others have but to me those unlocks go against the whole core of playing video games in the first place. What's the point of buying a game that you're only going to pay more to bypass the actual playing of it. > > > > Seems to me the point is to give people choice on playing the parts of the game they **want** to play and not being subjected to the parts they don't for a fee. > > The difference is that this is a multiplayer game where the actions you make indirectly affect others as well. This game would feel incredibly cheap if people could bypass everything "because they don't feel like it". Any sense of accomplishment or progression would also be diminished for everyone else, even if it does not affect them directly. Right ... you're talking about the big positive indirect effect that people buying things from the GS has on every player in the game ... or maybe the big positive indirect effect that giving players options increases game satisfaction. The impact on your feelings of buying progression is NOT a compelling reason for Anet to not offer it. Anyways, we could go on and on but it's clear that emotional arguments like 'feels cheap' or 'sense of accomplishment' aren't really compelling since we already have progression elements in the GS. See here is my big problem with the 'losing a sense of accomplishment' things you got here because I can literally **buy** a full level character, with full gear, including the best weapon and waypoints to go anywhere I want. Yet for some reason with ALL of this ability to buy to endgame that offends your sense of accomplishment that exists NOW ... you're still here. I can only conclude that the value you place on 'accomplishment' is so low, that the impact that selling endgame has almost no effect on you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted December 4, 2020 Share Posted December 4, 2020 > @"Veprovina.4876" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"Seera.5916" said: > > > I don't know the reasons the others have but to me those unlocks go against the whole core of playing video games in the first place. What's the point of buying a game that you're only going to pay more to bypass the actual playing of it. > > > > Seems to me the point is to give people choice on playing the parts of the game they **want** to play and not being subjected to the parts they don't for a fee. > > Now *that's* a slippery slope that never ends well, and that's proven in games. > > Once you start selling progress in game, what usually tends to happen is that all future content needs to account for that ... OK ... and that's where we are at ... because it's not IF Anet starts ... it's Anet HAS started already. The future content ALREADY has accounted for these things because the game is primarily focused on endgame content so the LAST thing that Anet should be doing is preventing people from being able to choose content they want to participate in because of a lack of options to overcome the barriers. Buying 80 boosts and waypoint unlocks are part of those options. I get your are opposed to ALL progression ... so basically anything point you want to make that is based on that is hardly relevant to begin with ... unless you believe Anet is going to pull all the progression elements from GS because it hurts people's feelings? That won't happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seera.5916 Posted December 4, 2020 Share Posted December 4, 2020 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Seera.5916" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"Seera.5916" said: > > > > I don't know the reasons the others have but to me those unlocks go against the whole core of playing video games in the first place. What's the point of buying a game that you're only going to pay more to bypass the actual playing of it. > > > > > > Seems to me the point is to give people choice on playing the parts of the game they **want** to play and not being subjected to the parts they don't for a fee. > > > > Opening one's real life wallet should not be an option. > > OK ... but it already is an option ... Anet has ALREADY opened that Pandora's Box ... so sure express your opinion but it's hard to see how that opinion is relevant to the game when Anet has already moved past the 'shouldn't be an option to buy progression' issue. Again answer this: why should people who do not want that stuff in the shop stop voicing their displeasure in such feats in an attempt to get ANet to stop adding such items? We know we can't get them to remove what they've already put in there. But we don't want them to put anything else like that in. Why do you feel that people who do not want pay to bypass items in the shop should just give up and let ANet go down the slippery slope just because ANet took the first few steps? Because if that's the case, I might as well just stop playing, uninstall, and never give ANet another dime. Because it's going to end up that way, might as well save my money and put my money and time towards other games that do not turn into a huge pay to win game. Because I don't support pay to win games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted December 4, 2020 Share Posted December 4, 2020 > @"Seera.5916" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"Seera.5916" said: > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > @"Seera.5916" said: > > > > > I don't know the reasons the others have but to me those unlocks go against the whole core of playing video games in the first place. What's the point of buying a game that you're only going to pay more to bypass the actual playing of it. > > > > > > > > Seems to me the point is to give people choice on playing the parts of the game they **want** to play and not being subjected to the parts they don't for a fee. > > > > > > Opening one's real life wallet should not be an option. > > > > OK ... but it already is an option ... Anet has ALREADY opened that Pandora's Box ... so sure express your opinion but it's hard to see how that opinion is relevant to the game when Anet has already moved past the 'shouldn't be an option to buy progression' issue. > > Again answer this: why should people who do not want that stuff in the shop stop voicing their displeasure in such feats in an attempt to get ANet to stop adding such items? No one said they shouldn't. I'm just wondering if someone has a reason other than 'feels bad' for why Anet shouldn't offer more. Clearly, whatever the reasons so far, the ones that lead Anet to offer progression elements win out over the ones that don't. It's easy to see why based on this thread. >I might as well just stop playing, uninstall, and never give ANet another dime. Because it's going to end up that way, might as well save my money and put my money and time towards other games that do not turn into a huge pay to win game. Because I don't support pay to win games. Clearly you don't define buying level 80 and waypoint unlocks and full endgame gear P2W because you are still here ... so then you shouldn't have a problem with MP's either. See the problem here is that these offerings have no impact on people that don't want to buy them ... just like any other GS thing you don't want to buy. The idea this is something people don't like is completely artificial because it's based on some non-existent idea that we 'compete' in PVE so selling 'win' isn't fair ... when the reality is that we play co-operatively and if someone wants to buy 'win' that's just more people to play with and fund the game. The ideas you people have are archaic. Sure ... leave GW2 ... and see what game you can play that doesn't have a store where you can't buy 'win' ... GL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linken.6345 Posted December 5, 2020 Share Posted December 5, 2020 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Seera.5916" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"Seera.5916" said: > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > @"Seera.5916" said: > > > > > > I don't know the reasons the others have but to me those unlocks go against the whole core of playing video games in the first place. What's the point of buying a game that you're only going to pay more to bypass the actual playing of it. > > > > > > > > > > Seems to me the point is to give people choice on playing the parts of the game they **want** to play and not being subjected to the parts they don't for a fee. > > > > > > > > Opening one's real life wallet should not be an option. > > > > > > OK ... but it already is an option ... Anet has ALREADY opened that Pandora's Box ... so sure express your opinion but it's hard to see how that opinion is relevant to the game when Anet has already moved past the 'shouldn't be an option to buy progression' issue. > > > > Again answer this: why should people who do not want that stuff in the shop stop voicing their displeasure in such feats in an attempt to get ANet to stop adding such items? > > No one said they shouldn't. I'm just wondering if someone has a reason other than 'feels bad' for why Anet shouldn't offer more. Clearly, whatever the reasons so far, the ones that lead Anet to offer progression elements win out over the ones that don't. It's easy to see why based on this thread. > > >I might as well just stop playing, uninstall, and never give ANet another dime. Because it's going to end up that way, might as well save my money and put my money and time towards other games that do not turn into a huge pay to win game. Because I don't support pay to win games. > > Clearly you don't define buying level 80 and waypoint unlocks and full endgame gear P2W because you are still here ... so then you shouldn't have a problem with MP's either. > > See the problem here is that these offerings have no impact on people that don't want to buy them ... just like any other GS thing you don't want to buy. The idea this is something people don't like is completely artificial because it's based on some non-existent idea that we 'compete' in PVE so selling 'win' isn't fair ... when the reality is that we play co-operatively and if someone wants to buy 'win' that's just more people to play with and fund the game. The ideas you people have are archaic. Sure ... leave GW2 ... and see what game you can play that doesn't have a store where you can't buy 'win' ... GL. > Nah if people buy there win we have less people to play with since there is less incentive for those to do the content that none paying people need to get the same mastery point.s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted December 5, 2020 Share Posted December 5, 2020 > @"Linken.6345" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"Seera.5916" said: > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > @"Seera.5916" said: > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > @"Seera.5916" said: > > > > > > > I don't know the reasons the others have but to me those unlocks go against the whole core of playing video games in the first place. What's the point of buying a game that you're only going to pay more to bypass the actual playing of it. > > > > > > > > > > > > Seems to me the point is to give people choice on playing the parts of the game they **want** to play and not being subjected to the parts they don't for a fee. > > > > > > > > > > Opening one's real life wallet should not be an option. > > > > > > > > OK ... but it already is an option ... Anet has ALREADY opened that Pandora's Box ... so sure express your opinion but it's hard to see how that opinion is relevant to the game when Anet has already moved past the 'shouldn't be an option to buy progression' issue. > > > > > > Again answer this: why should people who do not want that stuff in the shop stop voicing their displeasure in such feats in an attempt to get ANet to stop adding such items? > > > > No one said they shouldn't. I'm just wondering if someone has a reason other than 'feels bad' for why Anet shouldn't offer more. Clearly, whatever the reasons so far, the ones that lead Anet to offer progression elements win out over the ones that don't. It's easy to see why based on this thread. > > > > >I might as well just stop playing, uninstall, and never give ANet another dime. Because it's going to end up that way, might as well save my money and put my money and time towards other games that do not turn into a huge pay to win game. Because I don't support pay to win games. > > > > Clearly you don't define buying level 80 and waypoint unlocks and full endgame gear P2W because you are still here ... so then you shouldn't have a problem with MP's either. > > > > See the problem here is that these offerings have no impact on people that don't want to buy them ... just like any other GS thing you don't want to buy. The idea this is something people don't like is completely artificial because it's based on some non-existent idea that we 'compete' in PVE so selling 'win' isn't fair ... when the reality is that we play co-operatively and if someone wants to buy 'win' that's just more people to play with and fund the game. The ideas you people have are archaic. Sure ... leave GW2 ... and see what game you can play that doesn't have a store where you can't buy 'win' ... GL. > > > > Nah if people buy there win we have less people to play with since there is less incentive for those to do the content that none paying people need to get the same mastery point.s That kind of thinking assumes people can't complete MP's without these reluctant players to begin with ... obviously untrue. On the other hand, less people forced to do content they don't like is more people doing content they want to do. Less people doing MP's is NOT less people playing the game and that is the ultimate goal here. I've already talked about why forcing players to do content they don't like is NOT a more effective way to build a sustained playerbase over offering players options to play how they want ... I shouldn't even have to explain that. I mean, that's the whole reason this game _exists_; because it has LOTS of options to players for how they want to play and since release, increased those options to purchasing level 80 and waypoints if they choose to play that way as well. I mean, it sounds to me like you are making an argument that says Anet shouldn't sell progression elements because it takes players from the game you need to help you if you progress by playing the traditional way ... we know that's not true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linken.6345 Posted December 5, 2020 Share Posted December 5, 2020 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Linken.6345" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"Seera.5916" said: > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > @"Seera.5916" said: > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > @"Seera.5916" said: > > > > > > > > I don't know the reasons the others have but to me those unlocks go against the whole core of playing video games in the first place. What's the point of buying a game that you're only going to pay more to bypass the actual playing of it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Seems to me the point is to give people choice on playing the parts of the game they **want** to play and not being subjected to the parts they don't for a fee. > > > > > > > > > > > > Opening one's real life wallet should not be an option. > > > > > > > > > > OK ... but it already is an option ... Anet has ALREADY opened that Pandora's Box ... so sure express your opinion but it's hard to see how that opinion is relevant to the game when Anet has already moved past the 'shouldn't be an option to buy progression' issue. > > > > > > > > Again answer this: why should people who do not want that stuff in the shop stop voicing their displeasure in such feats in an attempt to get ANet to stop adding such items? > > > > > > No one said they shouldn't. I'm just wondering if someone has a reason other than 'feels bad' for why Anet shouldn't offer more. Clearly, whatever the reasons so far, the ones that lead Anet to offer progression elements win out over the ones that don't. It's easy to see why based on this thread. > > > > > > >I might as well just stop playing, uninstall, and never give ANet another dime. Because it's going to end up that way, might as well save my money and put my money and time towards other games that do not turn into a huge pay to win game. Because I don't support pay to win games. > > > > > > Clearly you don't define buying level 80 and waypoint unlocks and full endgame gear P2W because you are still here ... so then you shouldn't have a problem with MP's either. > > > > > > See the problem here is that these offerings have no impact on people that don't want to buy them ... just like any other GS thing you don't want to buy. The idea this is something people don't like is completely artificial because it's based on some non-existent idea that we 'compete' in PVE so selling 'win' isn't fair ... when the reality is that we play co-operatively and if someone wants to buy 'win' that's just more people to play with and fund the game. The ideas you people have are archaic. Sure ... leave GW2 ... and see what game you can play that doesn't have a store where you can't buy 'win' ... GL. > > > > > > > Nah if people buy there win we have less people to play with since there is less incentive for those to do the content that none paying people need to get the same mastery point.s > > That kind of thinking assumes people can't complete MP's without these reluctant players to begin with ... obviously untrue. On the other hand, less people forced to do content they don't like is more people doing content they want to do. Less people doing MP's is NOT less people playing the game and that is the ultimate goal here. > > I've already talked about why forcing players to do content they don't like is NOT a more effective way to build a sustained playerbase over offering players options to play how they want ... I shouldn't even have to explain that. I mean, that's the whole reason this game _exists_; because it has LOTS of options to players for how they want to play and since release, increased those options to purchasing level 80 and waypoints if they choose to play that way as well. > > I mean, it sounds to me like you are making an argument that says Anet shouldn't sell progression elements because it takes players from the game you need to help you if you progress by playing the traditional way ... we know that's not true. Yea how many Volcanic Stormcaller Weapon Box do you think would be on the trading post if everyone could just buy that mp with cash? Imagen trying to get those weapons alone since even fewer people would bother to do the drms at all. Now imagen ncsoft seeing that hey these people are fine paying cash for tiedious content lets make more of that please hint hint kick in the face anet. Yes that would be great for this game, it would not mate it goes against the very spirit of the game you seem to want to keep alive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seera.5916 Posted December 5, 2020 Share Posted December 5, 2020 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Seera.5916" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"Seera.5916" said: > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > @"Seera.5916" said: > > > > > > I don't know the reasons the others have but to me those unlocks go against the whole core of playing video games in the first place. What's the point of buying a game that you're only going to pay more to bypass the actual playing of it. > > > > > > > > > > Seems to me the point is to give people choice on playing the parts of the game they **want** to play and not being subjected to the parts they don't for a fee. > > > > > > > > Opening one's real life wallet should not be an option. > > > > > > OK ... but it already is an option ... Anet has ALREADY opened that Pandora's Box ... so sure express your opinion but it's hard to see how that opinion is relevant to the game when Anet has already moved past the 'shouldn't be an option to buy progression' issue. > > > > Again answer this: why should people who do not want that stuff in the shop stop voicing their displeasure in such feats in an attempt to get ANet to stop adding such items? > > No one said they shouldn't. > > >I might as well just stop playing, uninstall, and never give ANet another dime. Because it's going to end up that way, might as well save my money and put my money and time towards other games that do not turn into a huge pay to win game. Because I don't support pay to win games. > > Clearly you don't define buying level 80 and waypoint unlocks and full endgame gear P2W because you are still here ... so then you shouldn't have a problem with MP's either. > Because it's not quite egregious pay to win levels yet. But you keep insinuating that we should just sit back and let them add more buy to progress things, because they've added a handful in the past. And if we keep doing that, we'll end up at egregious pay to win. So if that's the way we're supposed to view things, then we might as well hold the opinion that pay to win is where ANet plans to take the cash shop and there's nothing we can do to stop it so we might as well stop supporting now. As for the two items you mentioned: Since very little end game is really locked behind being level 80 (things may be on a different scale on sub-80 maps, though) and very little locked behind that content that's relevant for other content, I don't view level 80 boosts as pay to win. I do however feel that they should be locked behind a vendor on a higher level map such that new players aren't able to buy one on day 1 and then have issues due to them not knowing how to play the game and trying to play level 80 content. Not necessarily on a level 80 map, though. It should never have been on the gem store. I do not think ANet should have added Waypoint unlocks to the gem store and never bought one and never will (posted as such on threads asking for it on the old forums). Never will gift one either. But as with ANet adding ascended gear after saying no gear treadmill, one step is not a treadmill. One buy to bypass item does not make a game pay to win. And the effect of the waypoint purchase does not give a huge benefit that's not easily obtainable by others so the push to buy those items is truly just by those who don't want to run around a map and not those just trying to keep up with everyone else. It's a slippery slope that I'd rather ANet progress too far down. It's light stuff like this to start. But where does it stop? I don't have a problem with alternate methods to obtain things by playing the game. I have a problem when it becomes "don't like this content but want the rewards behind it: open up your wallet and buy it." Mastery Points - There are currently more points than needed to fully unlock things so most players should be able to pick and choose what to do based on the content they like to do. It's account bound as well. However, I'd be just fine with them adding more mastery points to the game since masteries can block game progress. That way players have more options for the mastery points but still have to play the game to obtain them. It's why I'd have no problem with a Gift of Battle reward track being added to PvP. It would be another option that players could do for the Gift of Battle that gets players to play multiple game modes for their Legendary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarPT.7431 Posted December 5, 2020 Share Posted December 5, 2020 > @"Ultramex.1506" said: > My god.....have you been playing Ubisoft games?! Is this what the generation of gaming will be like? People just throw money at the screen without caring so they can skip? Imagine as a game developer, creating a content only to have some guy want to skip bu giving you money! > I'm sure you are T2, Ubisoft, EA and Activision favorite! But for developer with dignity that is just ....wish i could say the "word" without getting warning from Mod > Compare this to ESO, ton of skill shards to buy but MP on gw2 are limited and mostly tied to achievements. Just a little fix, in ESO you can only buy them once you completed the shards for said map in one character, essentially, yes you pay for skipping progress, but you pay for skipping progress in alts after you've done them at least once. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted December 5, 2020 Share Posted December 5, 2020 > @"Linken.6345" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"Linken.6345" said: > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > @"Seera.5916" said: > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > @"Seera.5916" said: > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Seera.5916" said: > > > > > > > > > I don't know the reasons the others have but to me those unlocks go against the whole core of playing video games in the first place. What's the point of buying a game that you're only going to pay more to bypass the actual playing of it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Seems to me the point is to give people choice on playing the parts of the game they **want** to play and not being subjected to the parts they don't for a fee. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Opening one's real life wallet should not be an option. > > > > > > > > > > > > OK ... but it already is an option ... Anet has ALREADY opened that Pandora's Box ... so sure express your opinion but it's hard to see how that opinion is relevant to the game when Anet has already moved past the 'shouldn't be an option to buy progression' issue. > > > > > > > > > > Again answer this: why should people who do not want that stuff in the shop stop voicing their displeasure in such feats in an attempt to get ANet to stop adding such items? > > > > > > > > No one said they shouldn't. I'm just wondering if someone has a reason other than 'feels bad' for why Anet shouldn't offer more. Clearly, whatever the reasons so far, the ones that lead Anet to offer progression elements win out over the ones that don't. It's easy to see why based on this thread. > > > > > > > > >I might as well just stop playing, uninstall, and never give ANet another dime. Because it's going to end up that way, might as well save my money and put my money and time towards other games that do not turn into a huge pay to win game. Because I don't support pay to win games. > > > > > > > > Clearly you don't define buying level 80 and waypoint unlocks and full endgame gear P2W because you are still here ... so then you shouldn't have a problem with MP's either. > > > > > > > > See the problem here is that these offerings have no impact on people that don't want to buy them ... just like any other GS thing you don't want to buy. The idea this is something people don't like is completely artificial because it's based on some non-existent idea that we 'compete' in PVE so selling 'win' isn't fair ... when the reality is that we play co-operatively and if someone wants to buy 'win' that's just more people to play with and fund the game. The ideas you people have are archaic. Sure ... leave GW2 ... and see what game you can play that doesn't have a store where you can't buy 'win' ... GL. > > > > > > > > > > Nah if people buy there win we have less people to play with since there is less incentive for those to do the content that none paying people need to get the same mastery point.s > > > > That kind of thinking assumes people can't complete MP's without these reluctant players to begin with ... obviously untrue. On the other hand, less people forced to do content they don't like is more people doing content they want to do. Less people doing MP's is NOT less people playing the game and that is the ultimate goal here. > > > > I've already talked about why forcing players to do content they don't like is NOT a more effective way to build a sustained playerbase over offering players options to play how they want ... I shouldn't even have to explain that. I mean, that's the whole reason this game _exists_; because it has LOTS of options to players for how they want to play and since release, increased those options to purchasing level 80 and waypoints if they choose to play that way as well. > > > > I mean, it sounds to me like you are making an argument that says Anet shouldn't sell progression elements because it takes players from the game you need to help you if you progress by playing the traditional way ... we know that's not true. > > Yea how many Volcanic Stormcaller Weapon Box do you think would be on the trading post if everyone could just buy that mp with cash? > > Imagen trying to get those weapons alone since even fewer people would bother to do the drms at all. > > Now imagen ncsoft seeing that hey these people are fine paying cash for tiedious content lets make more of that please hint hint kick in the face anet. > > Yes that would be great for this game, it would not mate it goes against the very spirit of the game you seem to want to keep alive. Theoretical musings of what might happen ingame in certain gamestates aren't compelling reasons to dismiss ideas. If people buying something impacted people's ability to do something ingame, Anet could change it. Again ... that kind of thinking assumes people can't complete that content without reluctant players to begin with. That doesn't make sense; if that's the case ... this game is doomed and not even selling WIN in the GS will save it. I love how you accuse me of promoting ideas that aren't healthy for the game ... while you oppose it so there are lots of Weapon Boxes in the TP and people hitting progression barriers ... yes, indeed ... I'm a game killer who is only thinking about my own best interests! :astonished: The fact is that I don't need to imagine anything related to the impact of Anet selling progression elements ... it's already reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted December 5, 2020 Share Posted December 5, 2020 > @"Seera.5916" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"Seera.5916" said: > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > @"Seera.5916" said: > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > @"Seera.5916" said: > > > > > > > I don't know the reasons the others have but to me those unlocks go against the whole core of playing video games in the first place. What's the point of buying a game that you're only going to pay more to bypass the actual playing of it. > > > > > > > > > > > > Seems to me the point is to give people choice on playing the parts of the game they **want** to play and not being subjected to the parts they don't for a fee. > > > > > > > > > > Opening one's real life wallet should not be an option. > > > > > > > > OK ... but it already is an option ... Anet has ALREADY opened that Pandora's Box ... so sure express your opinion but it's hard to see how that opinion is relevant to the game when Anet has already moved past the 'shouldn't be an option to buy progression' issue. > > > > > > Again answer this: why should people who do not want that stuff in the shop stop voicing their displeasure in such feats in an attempt to get ANet to stop adding such items? > > > > No one said they shouldn't. > > > > >I might as well just stop playing, uninstall, and never give ANet another dime. Because it's going to end up that way, might as well save my money and put my money and time towards other games that do not turn into a huge pay to win game. Because I don't support pay to win games. > > > > Clearly you don't define buying level 80 and waypoint unlocks and full endgame gear P2W because you are still here ... so then you shouldn't have a problem with MP's either. > > > > Because it's not quite egregious pay to win levels yet. Exactly ... when it suits you or doesn't impact you, it's not a problem. Therefore, it shouldn't be a problem to sell MP's because the fear you won't be able to get them if people can buy them is based on a misunderstanding you have about how people play the game. The barrier to getting MP's isn't people, it's organizing. If the game ever has so few people that MP's can't be obtained, it will have shut down LONG before that point. What is egregious to you is not a objective metric for a gamewide consideration of what is OK as P2W and what isn't. Clearly, you need that differentiation because it must be hard to know you say you won't support games that have P2W ... all the while logging in and playing GW2 like it doesn't do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerrick.7489 Posted December 5, 2020 Share Posted December 5, 2020 They shouldn't have made gems sell for gold, they shouldn't have made level 80 boosts, and they shouldn't have made waypoint unlocks. I definitely don't think they should sell mastery unlocks but with all the rest having been sold by Anet it's not hard to see why people would want them or even expect them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seera.5916 Posted December 5, 2020 Share Posted December 5, 2020 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Seera.5916" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"Seera.5916" said: > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > @"Seera.5916" said: > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > @"Seera.5916" said: > > > > > > > > I don't know the reasons the others have but to me those unlocks go against the whole core of playing video games in the first place. What's the point of buying a game that you're only going to pay more to bypass the actual playing of it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Seems to me the point is to give people choice on playing the parts of the game they **want** to play and not being subjected to the parts they don't for a fee. > > > > > > > > > > > > Opening one's real life wallet should not be an option. > > > > > > > > > > OK ... but it already is an option ... Anet has ALREADY opened that Pandora's Box ... so sure express your opinion but it's hard to see how that opinion is relevant to the game when Anet has already moved past the 'shouldn't be an option to buy progression' issue. > > > > > > > > Again answer this: why should people who do not want that stuff in the shop stop voicing their displeasure in such feats in an attempt to get ANet to stop adding such items? > > > > > > No one said they shouldn't. > > > > > > >I might as well just stop playing, uninstall, and never give ANet another dime. Because it's going to end up that way, might as well save my money and put my money and time towards other games that do not turn into a huge pay to win game. Because I don't support pay to win games. > > > > > > Clearly you don't define buying level 80 and waypoint unlocks and full endgame gear P2W because you are still here ... so then you shouldn't have a problem with MP's either. > > > > > > > Because it's not quite egregious pay to win levels yet. > > Exactly ... when it suits you or doesn't impact you, it's not a problem. Therefore, it shouldn't be a problem to sell MP's because the fear you won't be able to get them if people can buy them is based on a misunderstanding you have about how people play the game. The barrier to getting MP's isn't people, it's organizing. If the game ever has so few people that MP's can't be obtained, it will have shut down LONG before that point. > > What is egregious to you is not a objective metric for a gamewide consideration of what is OK as P2W and what isn't. Clearly, you need that differentiation because it must be hard to know you say you won't support games that have P2W ... all the while logging in and playing GW2 like it doesn't do it. I never said everyone had to have the same cut off for whether or not they support a game or not with regards to pay to win. I do not support pay to win decisions. With it being so few items right now, me actually playing the game still and not buying anything I feel crosses the line actually helps my cause by lowering the percentage of players who buy the items and use the items. Which lowers the chances of them adding more. But your posts have been all like if someone suggests adding some buy to progress thing to the store we should be silent on it because of precedent so that ANet will put it in because "it doesn't affect me" will eventually lead to everything you have to unlock being buyable. Which is egregious pay to win. Which does affect me in the long run. The players who buy those unlocks will on average be the first to leave because they've "done everything" and have nothing else left to do. Which is odd because they bypassed most/all of it in the first place. Those people go around and then claim that there's not much to do in the game. Which turns off potential new players because who wants to join an MMO that's been around for a while that doesn't have much to do. The reduction of new players would then hurt the game as current players drop off due to the fact that there are very few games that people typically play for long periods of their life. Meaning that players who do not want to purchase those unlocks will be hurt when there's not enough players willing to actually do the content. Meaning they either have to buy the bypass or just do without. Which then hurts the game as those players go around and state that the game is dying and doesn't have many players further hurting the game's new player acquisition and making the problem worse. Another poster above went over what it would do to the actual content that ANet would put out at that point to account for those players who bypass everything. So excuse me for looking at the big picture and what letting suggestions like this go uncontested would very highly likely do to the game if ANet took silence as at least approval of adding it to the game if not out right support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted December 5, 2020 Share Posted December 5, 2020 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Linken.6345" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"Linken.6345" said: > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > @"Seera.5916" said: > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > @"Seera.5916" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Seera.5916" said: > > > > > > > > > > I don't know the reasons the others have but to me those unlocks go against the whole core of playing video games in the first place. What's the point of buying a game that you're only going to pay more to bypass the actual playing of it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Seems to me the point is to give people choice on playing the parts of the game they **want** to play and not being subjected to the parts they don't for a fee. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Opening one's real life wallet should not be an option. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > OK ... but it already is an option ... Anet has ALREADY opened that Pandora's Box ... so sure express your opinion but it's hard to see how that opinion is relevant to the game when Anet has already moved past the 'shouldn't be an option to buy progression' issue. > > > > > > > > > > > > Again answer this: why should people who do not want that stuff in the shop stop voicing their displeasure in such feats in an attempt to get ANet to stop adding such items? > > > > > > > > > > No one said they shouldn't. I'm just wondering if someone has a reason other than 'feels bad' for why Anet shouldn't offer more. Clearly, whatever the reasons so far, the ones that lead Anet to offer progression elements win out over the ones that don't. It's easy to see why based on this thread. > > > > > > > > > > >I might as well just stop playing, uninstall, and never give ANet another dime. Because it's going to end up that way, might as well save my money and put my money and time towards other games that do not turn into a huge pay to win game. Because I don't support pay to win games. > > > > > > > > > > Clearly you don't define buying level 80 and waypoint unlocks and full endgame gear P2W because you are still here ... so then you shouldn't have a problem with MP's either. > > > > > > > > > > See the problem here is that these offerings have no impact on people that don't want to buy them ... just like any other GS thing you don't want to buy. The idea this is something people don't like is completely artificial because it's based on some non-existent idea that we 'compete' in PVE so selling 'win' isn't fair ... when the reality is that we play co-operatively and if someone wants to buy 'win' that's just more people to play with and fund the game. The ideas you people have are archaic. Sure ... leave GW2 ... and see what game you can play that doesn't have a store where you can't buy 'win' ... GL. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nah if people buy there win we have less people to play with since there is less incentive for those to do the content that none paying people need to get the same mastery point.s > > > > > > That kind of thinking assumes people can't complete MP's without these reluctant players to begin with ... obviously untrue. On the other hand, less people forced to do content they don't like is more people doing content they want to do. Less people doing MP's is NOT less people playing the game and that is the ultimate goal here. > > > > > > I've already talked about why forcing players to do content they don't like is NOT a more effective way to build a sustained playerbase over offering players options to play how they want ... I shouldn't even have to explain that. I mean, that's the whole reason this game _exists_; because it has LOTS of options to players for how they want to play and since release, increased those options to purchasing level 80 and waypoints if they choose to play that way as well. > > > > > > I mean, it sounds to me like you are making an argument that says Anet shouldn't sell progression elements because it takes players from the game you need to help you if you progress by playing the traditional way ... we know that's not true. > > > > Yea how many Volcanic Stormcaller Weapon Box do you think would be on the trading post if everyone could just buy that mp with cash? > > > > Imagen trying to get those weapons alone since even fewer people would bother to do the drms at all. > > > > Now imagen ncsoft seeing that hey these people are fine paying cash for tiedious content lets make more of that please hint hint kick in the face anet. > > > > Yes that would be great for this game, it would not mate it goes against the very spirit of the game you seem to want to keep alive. > > Theoretical musings of what might happen ingame in certain gamestates aren't compelling reasons to dismiss ideas. If people buying something impacted people's ability to do something ingame, Anet could change it. Again ... that kind of thinking assumes people can't complete that content without reluctant players to begin with. That doesn't make sense; if that's the case ... this game is doomed and not even selling WIN in the GS will save it. I love how you accuse me of promoting ideas that aren't healthy for the game ... while you oppose it so there are lots of Weapon Boxes in the TP and people hitting progression barriers ... yes, indeed ... I'm a game killer who is only thinking about my own best interests! :astonished: > > The fact is that I don't need to imagine anything related to the impact of Anet selling progression elements ... it's already reality. In short: Someone brings an actual ingame example which directly conflicts with your argument: if players could ignore the gameplay elements which are tied to the mastery points, things happen. Yet because you can't think of a way to counter that example, it needs to be ignored or omitted. Yes, Anet could change how more stuff works. They could then start selling even more things on the gem store which skip content (and the affect of this would be additive un relations to already implemented elements, as such the effects would also be additive in their impact), in order to compensate for the content skipping mechanics they could have added. They could then even design content around encouraging pladers to skip content and purchasing the work around as well, double dipping on each player. You are in fact ecouraging game destorying elements. The mere fact that you are encouraging cash incentives to skip content is literally destruction of game elements by mere reasoning that players need not interact with those elements. While being obnoxiously stubborn to any arguments made by a vast majority of players, and ignoring all of those arguments you can't challenge or disprove with strait up just ignoring some and just focusing on the 2 or 3 you enjoy repeating with the claim that similar, debatable, elemnts are already being sold (and even here ignoring the simple reality that the effects here are additive im their impact). Yet you wonder why others oppose this idea. Simple: you are essentually not listening to other players argument and just repeating your own little thought bubble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veprovina.4876 Posted December 5, 2020 Share Posted December 5, 2020 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Veprovina.4876" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"Seera.5916" said: > > > > I don't know the reasons the others have but to me those unlocks go against the whole core of playing video games in the first place. What's the point of buying a game that you're only going to pay more to bypass the actual playing of it. > > > > > > Seems to me the point is to give people choice on playing the parts of the game they **want** to play and not being subjected to the parts they don't for a fee. > > > > Now *that's* a slippery slope that never ends well, and that's proven in games. > > > > Once you start selling progress in game, what usually tends to happen is that all future content needs to account for that ... > > OK ... and that's where we are at ... because it's not IF Anet starts ... it's Anet HAS started already. The future content ALREADY has accounted for these things because the game is primarily focused on endgame content so the LAST thing that Anet should be doing is preventing people from being able to choose content they want to participate in because of a lack of options to overcome the barriers. Buying 80 boosts and waypoint unlocks are part of those options. > > I get your are opposed to ALL progression ... so basically anything point you want to make that is based on that is hardly relevant to begin with ... unless you believe Anet is going to pull all the progression elements from GS because it hurts people's feelings? That won't happen. So again, only your opinion on this matter is to be considered and all ours are worthless? > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Seera.5916" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"Seera.5916" said: > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > @"Seera.5916" said: > > > > > > I don't know the reasons the others have but to me those unlocks go against the whole core of playing video games in the first place. What's the point of buying a game that you're only going to pay more to bypass the actual playing of it. > > > > > > > > > > Seems to me the point is to give people choice on playing the parts of the game they **want** to play and not being subjected to the parts they don't for a fee. > > > > > > > > Opening one's real life wallet should not be an option. > > > > > > OK ... but it already is an option ... Anet has ALREADY opened that Pandora's Box ... so sure express your opinion but it's hard to see how that opinion is relevant to the game when Anet has already moved past the 'shouldn't be an option to buy progression' issue. > > > > Again answer this: why should people who do not want that stuff in the shop stop voicing their displeasure in such feats in an attempt to get ANet to stop adding such items? > > No one said they shouldn't. I'm just wondering if someone has a reason other than 'feels bad' for why Anet shouldn't offer more. Clearly, whatever the reasons so far, the ones that lead Anet to offer progression elements win out over the ones that don't. It's easy to see why based on this thread. You're the ones saying people shouldn't voice opinions because those opinions are worthless. And people gave you plenty of arguments, none of which were "feels bad", you just refused to ackgnowledge any of them. In the end, there's plenty of arguments against adding progression elements in the cash shop wether you want to see them or not. Thankfully it's not up to you. And hopefully, Anet doesn't slide the slippery slop and stays where it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormcrow.7513 Posted December 5, 2020 Share Posted December 5, 2020 Hard NO /Close Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted December 5, 2020 Share Posted December 5, 2020 > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > You are essentually not listening to other players argument and just repeating your own little thought bubble. Because their arguments ignore what is actually ALREADY part of the game; the whole basis of those arguments are denial of reality. I keep being told I'm being 'proven' wrong ... that doesn't make sense. My support of this idea is based on what is REAL ingame NOW. We are way past arguing IF Anet should sell progression or not ... they do it. The argument that they shouldn't sell more progression elements because ANY progression element that is sold is offensive to some people is clearly not relevant ... because if it was, Anet wouldn't be selling any progression elements now. It's like being in a room of flat-Earthers here. Again, I have no problem with people who want to have opinions. In this case, it's easy to see the irrelevance of those opinions because of established game for-sale progression elements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted December 5, 2020 Share Posted December 5, 2020 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > You are essentually not listening to other players argument and just repeating your own little thought bubble. > > Because their arguments ignore what is actually ALREADY part of the game; the whole basis of those arguments are denial of reality. I keep being told I'm being 'proven' wrong ... that doesn't make sense. My support of this idea is based on what is REAL ingame NOW. > > We are way past arguing IF Anet should sell progression or not ... they do it. The argument that they shouldn't sell more progression elements because ANY progression element that is sold is offensive to some people is clearly not relevant ... because if it was, Anet wouldn't be selling any progression elements now. It's like being in a room of flat-Earthers here. > > Again, I have no problem with people who want to have opinions. In this case, it's easy to see the irrelevance of those opinions because of established game for-sale progression elements. > ans here we have it again, ignoring everything said besides what you want to hear. You literally just ignored everything mentioned and went strait to your:"but they are already selling progression" argument. Almost like you are intentionally just not reading what is said. Anyway, doubtful they will go down this route and even if, probably only to cash in before dropping the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nerox.8731 Posted December 5, 2020 Share Posted December 5, 2020 > > Again, I have no problem with people who want to have opinions. In this case, it's easy to see the irrelevance of those opinions because of established game for-sale progression elements. > If you want to go that very specific route, your opinion is by your own definition irrelevant as this is not about what has already happened in the past, but a discussion what should happen in the future. As for everything else, we are not arguing against you, we are arguing in favor for a better overall product. And, surprisingly often, a little bit of sacrifice (read: things you don't like to do at the moment in gw2) has a bigger positive impact down the line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted December 5, 2020 Share Posted December 5, 2020 > @"Nerox.8731" said: > > > > Again, I have no problem with people who want to have opinions. In this case, it's easy to see the irrelevance of those opinions because of established game for-sale progression elements. > > > > If you want to go that very specific route, your opinion is by your own definition irrelevant... Except it's not an opinion. The idea that Anet can sell progression elements is based an observation of what is really happening in the game ... not some opinion I have about what I think of the idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linken.6345 Posted December 5, 2020 Share Posted December 5, 2020 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Nerox.8731" said: > > > > > > Again, I have no problem with people who want to have opinions. In this case, it's easy to see the irrelevance of those opinions because of established game for-sale progression elements. > > > > > > > If you want to go that very specific route, your opinion is by your own definition irrelevant... > > Except it's not an opinion. The idea that Anet can sell progression elements is based an observation of what is really happening in the game ... not some opinion I have about what I think of the idea. > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Nerox.8731" said: > > > > > > Again, I have no problem with people who want to have opinions. In this case, it's easy to see the irrelevance of those opinions because of established game for-sale progression elements. > > > > > > > If you want to go that very specific route, your opinion is by your own definition irrelevant... > > Except it's not an opinion. The idea that Anet can sell progression elements is based an observation of what is really happening in the game ... not some opinion I have about what I think of the idea. > Yes and we are not argueing if anet can sell progression elements in the game, we are saying we dont want them to sell any more then they already do. Some even gave you clear examples how it can be abused by said company to make the game worse just to earn a quick buck and how it can negatively affect the players. The 80 boost and waypoint unlock dont affect me in the slightest if 1 million people do, since I can do it solo on any of my characters given time. Mastery points behind group activity do since I am not good enough to do those solo. This not an opinion it is a fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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