mastery points should be available in the gemstore

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > You might have a point - except, of course, lately way too many of the MPs are nothing _but_ mindless grinding. If that were to be replaced with exploration, questing and gameplay, then sure, that would be for the best for everyone involved. Probbaly even for those that ask for them to be obtainable from gemshop.

> >

> >

> > Regarding the grind for MPs:

> > To my knowledge the Icebrood Saga hasn't ended yet. So far we always had excess MPs, anyone that finds a MP too much of a grind, can skip it and go for others.

> I have covered that already in another thread, i believe, but the main problem isn't that there's barely any leeway in MPs. It's that _compared to all three previous Mastery categories - Core, HoT and PoF - IBS masteries are in general way more grindy. So, sure, you might technically have some leeway, but it will be probably as grindy as the one you'd want to avoid. If we add to that the fact that the IBS masteries themselves are, for the most part, generally underwhelming, it really doesn't look good.

>

> > I see no reason why the Icebrood Saga won't have many excess MPs once it ends

> It theoretically can, but any previous Mastery category at this comparable point had already been in a much better situation. In previous cases i don't really remember ever thinking that maybe the next chapter will give me access to more mastery points - i always had enough of them, without having to go for the most annoying ones. Now it is different.

>

 

There never was any previous mastery comparable at this point.

 

HoT released with a vast majority of masteries implemented.

Living World Season 3 released while still using the HoT mastery points and piled additional mastery points on top.

PoF released with a vast majority of masteries implemented.

Living World Season 4 released while still using the PoF mastery points and piled additional mastery points on top.

IBS released as a Season with NO previous spillover mastery points from an expansion.

 

There literally NEVER was a situation as this one. The closest one could argue is the core Tyria masteries, which were very very grindy IF one was not a veteran, and here the developers added 9 additional mastery points to address the issue.

 

That's the issue though, some payers are not considering that this Saga/Season is not similar to past seasons in that you have a lot of flexibility and spare mastery points, but rather that those spare mastery points will get added with each new episode. Which has held true so far. Each new Episode increased the spare amount of mastery points once can achieve or collect.

 

As far as grind, that is a subjective perception currently based on the fact that masteries are limited. There were certainly some difficult/grindy mastery points in the past, only players had an easier time in ignoring those where as the current perceived scarcity makes the grindy mastery points seem necessary.

[voltaicbore.8012]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

 

> That's why i'm not in support of the gemstore option, but rather for introducing more of a low hanging fruit in-game ones.

 

This is my opinion as well. I agree that MP feel like a form of progess that _shouldn't_ be sold on the gem store, for reasons already mentioned in the thread. However, I do feel that the _impulse_ that OP expressed (and I'm sure many others share) needs to be addressed. IBS has combined the absolutely tightest MP margins I can remember with the absolutely grindiest MP achieves I can remember. Just another one of the many elements that make me hate IBS with a passion. Weak narrative, largely uninteresting combat, AND poor reward/progression structure?

 

Can't wait until EoD comes out and I can move on past this debacle.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> It theoretically can, but any previous Mastery category at this comparable point had already been in a much better situation.

 

As @"Cyninja.2954" already pointed out that's because we had an expansion providing loads of points before the launch of a Season. We always went into Seasons with a lot of extra MPs, but there is no expansion to provide extra MPs for the Icebrood Saga.

 

24 MPs were required to complete the non-Raid Season 3 mastery track, 48 MPs were acquired through the living world episodes

8 MPs required to complete the Raid track, 18 MPs added in Raids

 

36 MPs required to complete the Season 4 tracks, 42 MPs added in Season 4 (and 3 in Raids but let's exclude those)

 

46 MPs are required to max all -currently available- Season 5 tracks. 57 MPs are already available.

 

As you can see even excluding the expansions, Seasons alone added more than enough MPs to finish all the tracks and have extra MPs sitting around doing nothing. If we also include the excess MPs from the expansions, then you can see why in previous categories we were in a much better situation. Maybe the last few episodes will provide a lot of new MPs to complete all the tracks.

[AgentMoore.9453]

Sorry for the delayed responses; been busy doing life things.

 

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> First off, the items which could even be considered "paying for progression" are at best limited AND in no way endgame related AND not account wide.

 

The level 80 boost is absolutely 'endgame-related' in my opinion, as level 80 is when 'endgame' content begins. You can disagree with me about that - I'll live.

 

And yes, the level 80 boost and WP packs are not accountwide (unless you count the [lounges](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lounge), which are absolutely accountwide WPs). That might impact how a mastery unlock would be priced in the shop, but I don't think that's enough of a reason not to add them. Bag upgrades and bank upgrades are both in the shop - one is per character and one is accountwide, both available to buy. Those things aren't progression, but they are an example of the difference you mention not seeming to matter when it comes to the question of 'can we sell it?'

 

> Literally EVERY progression upgrade is character specific.

 

So anything accountwide would have to be more expensive if they offered it in the shop - at least that's what I'd expect. Still doesn't explain why that's the reason they shouldn't do it.

 

> you have no way of supporting your claim that past monetization of progression has NOT had a negative effect on the game.

 

As a refresher, what I said was **'Buying progression in GW2, so far at least, hasn't seemed to lead to anything that you couldn't already achieve just by playing the game'**, which is my opinion based on personal observations, and not a concrete or factual claim as you seem to suggest.

 

I do not have access to ArenaNet's 'ratio of progression sales to negative/positive effects' numbers, so I can't definitively weigh in on whether it's been good or bad for the game (and neither can you, my dude), just that the end result appears (from where I stand) to be the same and that in-game acquisition of progress doesn't seem to have changed just because people can buy WPs and 80 boosts.

 

If you're gonna put words in my mouth, at least sprinkle a little house dressing on there first. Or ranch.

 

> players who enjoy the game are opposed to having content which is part of the game play cycle be put up for monetization

 

If I disagree with you about this, it means I don't enjoy the game? That seems a little unfair.

 

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> I can give you one reason: MPs give a reason to play new content, if you remove MPs, you remove an incentive to play the content Arenanet developed that awards them.

 

It is true that MPs can be a reason to play new content, but they also aren't the only reason. Some people just play for whatever new skins/weapons/titles have come out or just for the sheer enjoyment of exploring new story/maps. I played GW2 long before masteries, for example, and would continue to play whether or not they could be purchased.

 

For me at least, removing MPs would have no effect. Having them in the store also wouldn't deter me from playing the game instead; why pay when I can play?

 

> That would certainly depend on how any kind of gem store Mastery Point is given.

 

A heaps-ton would depend on that, yes. I'm only really tackling the concept of introducing MPs to the store at all, but there's a rich conversation to be had about _how_ to actually go about doing it in a way that would be sensible and, you know, not break the spaghetti that holds this game together.

 

I doubt this is something devs are actually going to consider, but if they _did_ I imagine getting MPs from the shop would function like the HP unlocks, randomized and restricted only to expansions you own. Furthermore, I assume they wouldn't add a pack to the shop until an expansion/LW chapter was completely released, so as to give people incentive to play first and also to keep people from buying more mastery points than they could spend.

 

> Then of course there is the question of how much each mastery point is "worth". One mastery point is easy to acquire, another is very hard, how is their cost going to be determined?

 

Some guy in marketing would squint for a moment and pronounce '5 dolla' and that'd be the end of it. I'd love to see a chart of how WP packs and 80 boosts have sold, because I suspect they actually don't sell too many of them or put too much thought into the pricing portion of offering them since playing the game is so much easier (and cheaper, besides). The price of something like this wouldn't matter terribly much if the options are still going to be 'get thing for free by playing the game' and 'get thing by paying real money'.

 

I dunno about you, but I feel like most people would rather try to earn an MP in game (even a hard one) than shell out five bucks. But if some folks have been beating their head against a wall to get the last one they need, why is it my business how they decide to get it?

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"AgentMoore.9453" said:

> Some guy in marketing would squint for a moment and pronounce '5 dolla' and that'd be the end of it. I'd love to see a chart of how WP packs and 80 boosts have sold, because I suspect they actually don't sell too many of them or put too much thought into the pricing portion of offering them since playing the game is so much easier (and cheaper, besides). The price of something like this wouldn't matter terribly much if the options are still going to be 'get thing for free by playing the game' and 'get thing by paying real money'.

 

Level 80 boosters and waypoint unlocks do not affect expansions at all. You do not get extra 80 levels to train mastery abilities nor you unlock waypoints of expansion zones, so bringing those two up as a justification for adding MPs to the gem store is an invalid argument. Mastery Points are expansion content, the above you mentioned are not. You'd have a point if they provided the ability on the gem store to level up faster to earn those mastery abilities, or to unlock waypoints of expansion zones, but so far they've never added any kind of skipping items on the gem store, that apply on expansion progression systems.

 

> I doubt this is something devs are actually going to consider, but if they did I imagine getting MPs from the shop would function like the HP unlocks, randomized and restricted only to expansions you own.

 

And since you mentioned HPs, you'd notice that they aren't available on the gem store, makes you wonder about that.

 

Edit:

> I do not have access to ArenaNet's 'ratio of progression sales to negative/positive effects' numbers, so I can't definitively weigh in on whether it's been good or bad for the game (and neither can you, my dude), just that the end result appears (from where I stand) to be the same and that in-game acquisition of progress doesn't seem to have changed just because people can buy WPs and 80 boosts.

 

Only people cannot buy WPs in expansions, nor train mastery abilities, with the gem store items. Those progression skipping gem store items affect Central Tyria exclusively, which as you well know is free to play. From a financial point it makes sense for Arenanet to want to push players out of the free zone as quickly as possible, so they can get access to the paid parts of the game. Plus in free to play games boosters of that kind are more or less acceptable.

[AgentMoore.9453]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> You'd have a point if they provided the ability on the gem store to level up faster to earn those mastery abilities, or to unlock waypoints of expansion zones, but so far they've never added any kind of skipping items on the gem store, that apply on expansion progression systems.

 

I mean, for all content they've always had [boosters](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Booster). You could earn them through gameplay or you could buy them, but they give an undeniable edge. That choice of 'pay for it' or 'play for it' was always there in some form.

 

As for selling waypoints, well.

 

[icebrood Saga](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/World_Boss_Portal_Device) waypoint item. [Heart of Thorns](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Maguuma_Pact_Operation_Portal_Device) waypoint item. [Path of Fire](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lily_of_the_Elon) waypoint item.

 

I don't even bring those up to try and embarrass you, but they're in the game and they give you a pretty clear fast-tracked advantage for getting to those places ahead of someone doing it 'manually'. ArenaNet has tried to mitigate that a bit by requiring level 80, but you can purchase a level 80 boost, so here we are.

 

> And since you mentioned HPs, you'd notice that they aren't available on the gem store, makes you wonder about that.

 

It doesn't make me wonder, really. You buy your 80 boost and have your core HP training filled out for all content that was released up to 80. That checks out.

 

If they added HP unlocks to the store at any point so people could train up through the gem store, I'd shrug like I'm shrugging at the idea of adding MPs right now. As it stands, [there's already a 'skip ahead' method for HPs in the game](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Heroics_Notary) (including expansion HPs), so I imagine that's why it's not in the shop yet.

 

> Only people cannot buy WPs in expansions, nor train mastery abilities, with the gem store items. Those progression skipping gem store items affect Central Tyria exclusively, which as you well know is free to play.

 

At the moment, sure (unless we count lounges which are WPs). I'm saying that being able to buy the progression that you can currently buy has not appeared to be a problem in the portion of the game where it's more noticeable - Core Tyria. I can't measure something in expansion content that doesn't exist. The teleportation items I mentioned above, however, do affect expansions though, and so far they haven't seemed to be a problem.

 

My observations on the effects of gemstore progression in core are why I don't see it becoming an issue in expansion content, and you seem to believe the opposite. I won't try to change your mind.

 

> From a financial point it makes sense for Arenanet to want to push players out of the free zone as quickly as possible, so they can get access to the paid parts of the game.

 

If they did things from a financial standpoint, they'd rethink their packaging of the game so that new players aren't hit with the 'by the way, living story not included' bomb right after purchase. As for it being more profitable to rush players through core game, I guess that's up for debate. I'd think pushing people through the free portion too quickly would cause them to be confused about mechanics and eventually lose interest in playing (and paying).

 

Honestly, _that_ would be the strongest argument against progression of any sort being sold in the shop: people moving too quickly through content and burning out. But that still doesn't mean people shouldn't have the choice. Letting people choose their path to progression in the game, especially when there are already examples of it in the shop, is why I'm not offended by the idea of MPs for sale.

 

If it doesn't change my experience or reduce the quality of non-paid progression, bring it on.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"AgentMoore.9453" said:

> I mean, for all content they've always had [boosters](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Booster). You could earn them through gameplay or you could buy them, but they give an undeniable edge. That choice of 'pay for it' or 'play for it' was always there in some form.

 

and

 

> I don't even bring those up to try and embarrass you, but they're in the game and they give you a pretty clear fast-tracked advantage for getting to those places ahead of someone doing it 'manually'.

 

Those are not unlocked waypoints so not part of progression, remember this thread is about putting PROGRESSION on the gem store, not putting gem store items in general. Neither of what you mentioned affects character/account expansion progression, which is what MPs are. You brought up some irrelevant items to the discussion.

 

> It doesn't make me wonder, really. You buy your 80 boost and have your core HP training filled out for all content that was released up to 80. That checks out.

 

It doesn't offer elite spec progression, which is what you get in the expansion.

 

> At the moment, sure (unless we count lounges which are WPs). I'm saying that being able to buy the progression that you can currently buy has not appeared to be a problem in the portion of the game where it's more noticeable - Core Tyria. I can't measure something in expansion content that doesn't exist. The teleportation items I mentioned above, however, do affect expansions though, and so far they haven't seemed to be a problem.

 

The teleportation items you mentioned above are not part of progression though, nor are boosters.

 

> My observations on the effects of gemstore progression in core are why I don't see it becoming an issue in expansion content, and you seem to believe the opposite. I won't try to change your mind.

 

And as I said, if they add progression skipping items that affect the expansions (those you posted do not) they maybe adding MPs on the gem store would make more sense. I find it illogical to want to put one part of progression on the gem store (MPs), while all other parts are progressed only up to the Core game.

 

> If they did things from a financial standpoint, they'd rethink their packaging of the game so that new players aren't hit with the 'by the way, living story not included' bomb right after purchase. As for it being more profitable to rush players through core game, I guess that's up for debate. I'd think pushing people through the free portion too quickly would cause them to be confused about mechanics and eventually lose interest in playing (and paying).

 

Actually we do know if we check achievement points that the vast majority of accounts stops playing this game very early. So allowing players to skip the early game and get directly to the good parts is a sensible move.

 

> Honestly, _that_ would be the strongest argument against progression of any sort being sold in the shop: people moving too quickly through content and burning out. But that still doesn't mean people shouldn't have the choice. Letting people choose their path to progression in the game, especially when there are already examples of it in the shop, is why I'm not offended by the idea of MPs for sale.

 

As already explained, there are no examples in the store providing access to expansion progression yet. If there were, then maybe this idea of selling MPs on the gem store would make more sense.

 

Edit:

Also on the subject of HPs, the method included demands playing WVW, it doesn't come free, the reason they included that option is for WVW players to complete their elite specializations without unlocking HPs in PVE. But they still have to play WVW to unlock them. That's completely different to what is being asked, plus mastery abilities are worthless in WVW anyway. If mastery abilities were useful in WVW you'd be sure they'd add a way to unlock them in WVW that doesn't include doing PVE activities.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"AgentMoore.9453" said:

> Sorry for the delayed responses; been busy doing life things.

>

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > First off, the items which could even be considered "paying for progression" are at best limited AND in no way endgame related AND not account wide.

>

> The level 80 boost is absolutely 'endgame-related' in my opinion, as level 80 is when 'endgame' content begins. You can disagree with me about that - I'll live.

>

 

Fine, then we disagree on this because in my eyes it is NOT endgame. The endgame has shifted away from level 80 for multiple years by now, mostly via the mastery point system which does not only offer significant advantages but is also mandatory in a majority of content by now. Level 80 ONLY gets you past the by now free to play core game, which makes sense if one wants to get players faster into actual monetizable content. Unfortunately this boost to get players into monetizable content might have achieved a irreparable player loss which we can not quantify.

 

> @"AgentMoore.9453" said:

> And yes, the level 80 boost and WP packs are not accountwide (unless you count the [lounges](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lounge), which are absolutely accountwide WPs). That might impact how a mastery unlock would be priced in the shop, but I don't think that's enough of a reason not to add them. Bag upgrades and bank upgrades are both in the shop - one is per character and one is accountwide, both available to buy. Those things aren't progression, but they are an example of the difference you mention not seeming to matter when it comes to the question of 'can we sell it?'

>

 

Lounge passes and bank tabs are not progression. They are literally quality of life. Be so kind and make that distinction. In fact not 1 item you quoted is progression or would qualify as progression element which is sold account wide. There is a reason I made the claim that no account wide progression so far was being sold, you have not yet disproven that.

 

> @"AgentMoore.9453" said:

> Sorry for the delayed responses; been busy doing life things.

>

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > Literally EVERY progression upgrade is character specific.

>

> So anything accountwide would have to be more expensive if they offered it in the shop - at least that's what I'd expect. Still doesn't explain why that's the reason they shouldn't do it.

>

 

I wasn't talking about it being possible, though the nature of selling progression with the huge range of characters available (I have 33 for example) would make it challenging, I was making the case that it has NOT been done yet. Which remains true.

 

> @"AgentMoore.9453" said:

> Sorry for the delayed responses; been busy doing life things.

>

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > you have no way of supporting your claim that past monetization of progression has NOT had a negative effect on the game.

>

> As a refresher, what I said was **'Buying progression in GW2, so far at least, hasn't seemed to lead to anything that you couldn't already achieve just by playing the game'**, which is my opinion based on personal observations, and not a concrete or factual claim as you seem to suggest.

>

> I do not have access to ArenaNet's 'ratio of progression sales to negative/positive effects' numbers, so I can't definitively weigh in on whether it's been good or bad for the game (and neither can you, my dude), just that the end result appears (from where I stand) to be the same and that in-game acquisition of progress doesn't seem to have changed just because people can buy WPs and 80 boosts.

>

> If you're gonna put words in my mouth, at least sprinkle a little house dressing on there first. Or ranch.

>

 

Sure, how about this:

I never made the claim that this is a pay to win issue, which you are basically eluding to since that is what buying unachievable progression is. So if you don;t want me to put words in your mouth, also don't put words in mine. I clearly distanced myself from any pay-to-win arguments in this thread because I do not see this applying. I did clarify though where I see issues with this huge leap from character to account wide progression.

 

None of us have access to Arenanets statistics, but we do have limited insight into how already available LIMITED character based progression affects the game. In general, it is not beneficial if we go by the amount of reoccurring topics on lost players go. If we add in the topics on game difficulty of expansions, which are significantly more difficult than the core game.

 

I do believe though that the developers have the metrics on this and given the data they have I doubt that this kind of will get sold, which is why I was confident in my claim that once we actually see such store option added, aka account wide progression elements being sold, it will be a short term cash grab potentially indicating the shift away from this game.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> As far as grind, that is a subjective perception currently based on the fact that masteries are limited. There were certainly some difficult/grindy mastery points in the past, only players had an easier time in ignoring those where as the current perceived scarcity makes the grindy mastery points seem necessary.

That "only" is the exact point i am making. The players _had_ an easier time in ignoring more grindy Mastery Points. And there's nothing pointing out to this changing in the future parts of the last chapter, unless those start giving out those mastery points in a manner significantly different than how it was done throughout the whole IBS. And there's absolutely nothing suggesting such a sudden change in design will happen at this point. Especially since the same kind of shift into more and more grind was happening also in other parts of the game.

 

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > As far as grind, that is a subjective perception currently based on the fact that masteries are limited. There were certainly some difficult/grindy mastery points in the past, only players had an easier time in ignoring those where as the current perceived scarcity makes the grindy mastery points seem necessary.

> That "only" is the exact point i am making. The players _had_ an easier time in ignoring more grindy Mastery Points. And there's nothing pointing out to this changing in the future parts of the last chapter, unless those start giving out those mastery points in a manner significantly different than how it was done throughout the whole IBS. And there's absolutely nothing suggesting such a sudden change in design will happen at this point. Especially since the same kind of shift into more and more grind was happening also in other parts of the game.

>

 

So you want to "replace" grind-y mastery points in game with mastery points that are sold on the gem store? Because that's the topic of this thread. If you want to ask for more easily available MPs then by all means do so and I will support it fully because I don't like what they are doing in the game right now. But that's not the topic of this thread.

 

To stay on the topic, excluding Icebrood Saga, do you think that there aren't enough "easy" to get MPs in Central Tyria, Heart of Thorns or Path of Fire? Because this is a global suggestion after all, it's not about IBS exclusively.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > As far as grind, that is a subjective perception currently based on the fact that masteries are limited. There were certainly some difficult/grindy mastery points in the past, only players had an easier time in ignoring those where as the current perceived scarcity makes the grindy mastery points seem necessary.

> That "only" is the exact point i am making. The players _had_ an easier time in ignoring more grindy Mastery Points.

 

The ability to ignore grindy mastery points was a direct result of having a bigger choice of spare points. Which I explained is in relation to having entire expansions release content in bulk.

 

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> And there's nothing pointing out to this changing in the future parts of the last chapter, unless those start giving out those mastery points in a manner significantly different than how it was done throughout the whole IBS. And there's absolutely nothing suggesting such a sudden change in design will happen at this point. Especially since the same kind of shift into more and more grind was happening also in other parts of the game.

 

 

I'm sorry, are we playing the same game?

 

Every single release and new episode has been introducing more and sufficient mastery points. We are up to 12 spare by now for this content. That is up by 9 spare points over the 3 spare which were available after the first episode, which required actually getting nearly all MP. Those 12 spare points can easily fit ALL the grindy masteries by now, meaning there is less grindy alternatives to cover to past content.

 

If you went through all the mastery points: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mastery_point_unlocks

more than half are related to simply channeling a mastery point, completing a meta event 1 time or finishing the story. Even more are related to minimal engagement with content like adventures.

 

You'll have a hard time to find 10+ extremely grindy mastery points, and that is without future episodes. The flexibility has continually increased and the "easy" mastery points available added have far outweighed the super grindy ones.

 

Sure, you can believe what you want, but it certainly is not reflected in the release approach this Saga so far. Yes, those grindy masteries are increasing but that is irrelevant IF the overall amount of not so grindy available mastery points increases far more, which it has so far.

[Obtena.7952]

I think people have lost the point here ... it doesn't have anything to do with how hard they are to get ... just like someone buying WP's, level 80 boosters and some level 80 gear aren't doing it because those are hard to get either. It's about the relationship a player has with their time/money. People aren't able to dissociate themselves from the idea that MMO's are about accomplishment. For some people, it's not about accomplishment, they just want to play with their friends, hang out and maybe tag along on whatever. The things a player can buy with RL money offered in this game offer THAT kind of player a fulfilling experience WITHOUT impacting 'accomplishment' people.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > As far as grind, that is a subjective perception currently based on the fact that masteries are limited. There were certainly some difficult/grindy mastery points in the past, only players had an easier time in ignoring those where as the current perceived scarcity makes the grindy mastery points seem necessary.

> > That "only" is the exact point i am making. The players _had_ an easier time in ignoring more grindy Mastery Points. And there's nothing pointing out to this changing in the future parts of the last chapter, unless those start giving out those mastery points in a manner significantly different than how it was done throughout the whole IBS. And there's absolutely nothing suggesting such a sudden change in design will happen at this point. Especially since the same kind of shift into more and more grind was happening also in other parts of the game.

> >

>

> So you want to "replace" grind-y mastery points in game with mastery points that are sold on the gem store?

No - and i thought i was clear enough about it already. I wanted to say, that if we were to do some changes (and for IBS we definitely _should_ do some changes), they should be done ingame, not through the store.

 

> To stay on the topic, excluding Icebrood Saga, do you think that there aren't enough "easy" to get MPs in Central Tyria, Heart of Thorns or Path of Fire? Because this is a global suggestion after all, it's not about IBS exclusively.

No, absolutely not. Up to IBS, the Mastery Points situation was quite good in general. It started turning sour only in LS5.

 

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > As far as grind, that is a subjective perception currently based on the fact that masteries are limited. There were certainly some difficult/grindy mastery points in the past, only players had an easier time in ignoring those where as the current perceived scarcity makes the grindy mastery points seem necessary.

> > > That "only" is the exact point i am making. The players _had_ an easier time in ignoring more grindy Mastery Points. And there's nothing pointing out to this changing in the future parts of the last chapter, unless those start giving out those mastery points in a manner significantly different than how it was done throughout the whole IBS. And there's absolutely nothing suggesting such a sudden change in design will happen at this point. Especially since the same kind of shift into more and more grind was happening also in other parts of the game.

> > >

> >

> > So you want to "replace" grind-y mastery points in game with mastery points that are sold on the gem store?

> No - and i thought i was clear enough about it already. I wanted to say, that if we were to do some changes (and for IBS we definitely _should_ do some changes), they should be done ingame, not through the store.

>

 

I agree with this as I personally think mastery points should be used to guide players somewhat to content and try things, and let's be honest, guiding players to "buy" achievements for thousands of gold as some collections require is NOT something I find fun myself. Luckily the vast majority of mastery points are not of that type.

 

I do believe though that by the end of this Saga, there will be enough spare points that this will become a non issue (outside of players with extreme OCD). At least I would hope that to be the case.

[Ajji.6031]

I’ve been going on a tear unlocking masteries for Astralaria. It’s my first legendary, and 2nd gen too boot, plus I’m super casual.

I’ve encountered a bunch of super annoying masteries. Lions Arch exterminator was supposedly easy, but it seemed impossible without a walkthrough. Especially finding one of the bugs in the dark maze in the jumping puzzle in the cave.

 

So I can see the appeal of unlocking some mastery points with gems. The 2 hours spent jumping over a volcano is worth way more than $10 or whatever. However, instead of buying points outright I’d rather buy more maps with some easy mastery points. I did buy all of the Living world seasons and haven’t worked through all of the easy achievements yet...so I’m not sure how much more I’ll need just yet tho.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> I do believe though that by the end of this Saga, there will be enough spare points that this will become a non issue (outside of players with extreme OCD). At least I would hope that to be the case.

I'd expect the last 3 parts of the final chapter to come with around 15 Mastery points. And i would expect a minimum of 7 of them (but probably no more than 10) to be of the easy variety (remaining 7 DRMs and probably no more than 3 for the story itself). At the same time, there are still 12 points left in the yet-locked tiers of the last Mastery track. As such, i would expect the rest of IBS to _increase_ the requirement for more grindy mastery points you would have to do (or, at the very best, keep them unchanged). Even if it will also increase the point leeway.

Unless, as i said, they'll significantly change their approach in the last moments.

 

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > I do believe though that by the end of this Saga, there will be enough spare points that this will become a non issue (outside of players with extreme OCD). At least I would hope that to be the case.

> I'd expect the last 3 parts of the final chapter to come with around 15 Mastery points. And i would expect a minimum of 7 of them (but probably no more than 10) to be of the easy variety (remaining 7 DRMs and probably no more than 3 for the story itself). At the same time, there are still 12 points left in the yet-locked tiers of the last Mastery track. As such, i would expect the rest of IBS to _increase_ the requirement for more grindy mastery points you would have to do (or, at the very best, keep them unchanged). Even if it will also increase the point leeway.

> Unless, as i said, they'll significantly change their approach in the last moments.

>

 

Every single episode released added more mastery points available versus required to finish new masteries added. Every single episode so far.

 

Currently the unavailable but visible masteries in Dragon Slayer require a total of 17 mastery points (not 12). If the developers continue for the remaining episode as they have for all episodes so far (and which was mirrored in past living world seasons too, always adding more new mastery points versus needed with new episodes), which is the only basis for assumption we have, you would be incorrect.

 

Hence why I am unsure where you are drawing your assumption from given this was never the case so far. Not saying you are wrong, but I just don't see WHY the developers should suddenly change their approach to this out of the blue. They don't have to change their approach given how their approach was always provide more than needed.

[BnooMaGoo.5690]

Another way to earn Mastery fulfillment would be most welcome by me.

To me, Mastery points are part of Map's currency for want of a better term.

Similar issues have been solved by offering map currency swaps .

Might be a direction to go which solves the "pay to win/play" argument

 

I greet you like the sun greets the morning

 

[sevenDEADLY.5281]

Came expecting fantastic responses to this request. Was not let down. Should be able to spend real life money to see the credits of the game roll, and when they do, your account is deleted and you're IP banned because there's no need to play anymore, you just bought game completion. Its over... credits rolled.

[Finalfreefall.8247]

Eh. I already use a mount to bypass most of the exploration. They work too well for that tbh. Can't complain about people wanting mastery points when most of us use mounts to skip the actual content. (Wheras masteries are more or less an artificial grind)

Personally, I would pay money for a way to skip the Living Story. About fifteen dollars to pass the story and remove the B-team from the map per episode sounds fair to me.

[The Greyhawk.9107]

> @"Finalfreefall.8247" said:

> Personally, I would pay money for a way to skip the Living Story. About fifteen dollars to pass the story and remove the B-team from the map per episode sounds fair to me.

 

You don't even have to spend money to skip the Living Story, just don't buy the thing and wah-la.

[Finalfreefall.8247]

> @"The Greyhawk.9107" said:

> > @"Finalfreefall.8247" said:

> > Personally, I would pay money for a way to skip the Living Story. About fifteen dollars to pass the story and remove the B-team from the map per episode sounds fair to me.

>

> You don't even have to spend money to skip the Living Story, just don't buy the thing and wah-la.

 

Hah! Well played.

 

I still want to adventure in the maps. I just don't want to get pulled out of my immersion by people complaining at me from a distance. If I can buy a "Black lion cat herder" to manage Destiny's orphans while I help the locals of whatever adventuring spot is handy, I'd have more fun.

[Chyanne Waters.8719]

It's funny Anet can do anything they want for no reason whatsoever, They could stop charging people for older living world episodes, give away outfits they want to, lower the price of gem store items for example. And there isn't anything we can do about it. Except appreciate their generosity. So if Anet does decide to offer mastery points in the gem store they can. They can also put them in black lion chests, or trade them for excess items in your inventory. This is Anets game not Blizzards, not Daybreak's [formally Sony]. Anet does not and will not follow the rules of any older MMO. They want players to enjoy GW2 not stifle them. If a player want to play this game like they think Anet wants them too, fine enjoy it. If a player wants a shortcut to part of that the fine they can bypass it with other options.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> Every single episode released added more mastery points available versus required to finish new masteries added. Every single episode so far.

But we're not talking about mastery points available. We're talking about how many of those are in the "easy" group vs the "grindy" one. So, if the episode releases more mastery requirements than easy mastery points, it means that as a result of said episode, you would need to do **more** grindy MPs to cap your masteries. Not less. Even if the total of released MPs is greater than the requirements, as long as we're basically forced into at least some of the grindy MPs it doesn't help at all.

 

And i honestly doubt we're going to get 17 easy mastery points in the last 3 parts of the Champions chapter.

 

>

> Currently the unavailable but visible masteries in Dragon Slayer require a total of 17 mastery points (not 12).

You're right, i counted wrong. That makes the situation even worse, because i just don't see us getting even 15 of easy MPs, much less full 17.

 

> If the developers continue for the remaining episode as they have for all episodes so far (and which was mirrored in past living world seasons too, always adding more new mastery points versus needed with new episodes), which is the only basis for assumption we have, you would be incorrect.

Again, it doesn't matter how much mastery points they release, if the net result would still be a need to do more of the _grindy_ ones.

 

> Hence why I am unsure where you are drawing your assumption from given this was never the case so far.

Because it _has_ been the case so far. It's just the case for something else than what you speak of.

 

> Not saying you are wrong, but I just don't see WHY the developers should suddenly change their approach to this out of the blue.

Exactly my point - i don't see them changing their approach either.

 

> They don't have to change their approach given how their approach was always provide more than needed.

That only seems like that to you because you count only the MP totals. Which was never the issue at all. You are essentially arguing about something completely different than i do, and completely ignoring the core of the issue i brought up.

 

Which is that grindy MPs are not optional, because we don't have enough of _non-grindy_ ones, and (again, _based on prior experience) that situation is only going to get worse, not better, with future releases. Unless something changes, which, as you yourself noticed is not very likely.

 

 

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> Which is that grindy MPs are not optional, because we don't have enough of _non-grindy_ ones, and (again, _based on **prior experience**) that situation is only going to get worse, not better, with future releases. Unless something changes, which, as you yourself noticed is not very likely.

 

Based on prior experience we don't have enough non-grindy MPs? Like in Central Tyria, Heart of Thorns and Path of Fire we didn't have enough non-grindy MPs? Because that's the prior experience. IBS isn't finished yet.

 

At this point in time, December 10, 2020, there are 46 unlockable mastery abilities and 57 mastery points.

There 21 MPs available through simple Insights, there were 27 Insights in Season 4 and 19 in Season 3, it's likely we'll get some more until the end (each DRM should have one more), will we reach the 27 of Season 4 or not is anyone's guess.

There are 5 MPs in given in the story (Prologue doesn't have one), 6 in Season 4 and 6 in Season 3 (one for each episode), so we'll likely get at least one more.

With the 26 easy ones above, we are left with a selection of 20 MPs, out of 31, to complete all the currently available mastery tracks.

There are 4 MPs that require the full completion of weapon/armor collections, which I suppose are the most grindy ones, which brings our total down to 27

 

Out of those 27 it all going to depend on what you call "grindy" but you do have an excess of 7 MPs