Einlanzer.1627 Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said: > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > The thing that frustrates me about this is the idea that the "house edge" should apply to gambling in an MMO - it shouldn't, because unlike with real gambling - it's an additive system based on RNG, not a zero-sum game. Neither game developers nor players seem to realize this, and it leads to exploitation and a lot of salt. > > > > In fact, **the players should have an edge with any video game-based gambling system, and should virtually always come out ahead in the long run**. If you open 100 BL chests, you should expect there to be a high likelihood that the stuff you end up with carries somewhat higher overall value than stuff you would have bought directly because you wanted it. Otherwise, you are being exploited. **They do not have BL chests tuned appropriately, and people need to scream about it until they change it or remove it altogether.** > > If it were a gambling system, maybe. It's not. It's a tool for selling moments of entertainment for a nominal price. They aren't selling the loot; they are selling the excitement of wondering if you might win big. Yes, it is a gambling system, because you pay money for RNG rewards. The problem is that the longer you play it, the more likely you are to **not** get your money's worth out of it - which is by necessity how actual real world gambling works, but is the opposite of how this type of gambling system needs to work if they want to actually make money off of it without pissing off their players constantly. Designing it like real-world gambling is blatant exploitation and not smart from a business perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Illconceived Was Na.9781 Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said: > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > The thing that frustrates me about this is the idea that the "house edge" should apply to gambling in an MMO - it shouldn't, because unlike with real gambling - it's an additive system based on RNG, not a zero-sum game. Neither game developers nor players seem to realize this, and it leads to exploitation and a lot of salt. > > > > > > In fact, **the players should have an edge with any video game-based gambling system, and should virtually always come out ahead in the long run**. If you open 100 BL chests, you should expect there to be a high likelihood that the stuff you end up with carries somewhat higher overall value than stuff you would have bought directly because you wanted it. Otherwise, you are being exploited. **They do not have BL chests tuned appropriately, and people need to scream about it until they change it or remove it altogether.** > > > > If it were a gambling system, maybe. It's not. It's a tool for selling moments of entertainment for a nominal price. They aren't selling the loot; they are selling the excitement of wondering if you might win big. > > Yes, it is a gambling system, because you pay money for RNG rewards. The problem is that the longer you play it, the more likely you are to **not** get your money's worth out of it - which is by necessity how actual real world gambling works, but is the opposite of how this type of gambling system needs to work if they want to actually make money off of it without pissing off their players constantly. > > Designing it like real-world gambling is blatant exploitation. We clearly disagree on what's being sold. I believe that the system is designed in a way that it's unreasonable to expect anyone will "get their money's worth" unless they are buying entertainment. At which point, the question is only: is it worth a dollar/euro equivalent to roll the dice? Like any lotto, they are selling a fantasy, not monetary equivalency. In RL lottos, about 50% of the proceeds goes into prizes, amortized over all the contestants. Given the huge jackpots, it means that most people are going to get returns far below average and a tiny fraction returns even farther above. The last time I calculated the monetary value of BL chests (based on then available drop rates and TP values, with gem:gold rates used for gem shop unlocks), it looked that BL keys offered about 70% return. (It's probably varied from 50% to 80% depending on the markets and contents). That's higher than RL lottos, but resulting in the same impact: lots of below average losers; a tiny fraction of far-above average winners. There's an argument that lottos exploit those bad at math... and it's been made since the very first lotto. However, even those good at math like the fantasy of imagining that they might be the one to win big. That's worth the occasional buck to me in RL. It's never worth it in game for me, although I'm willing to invest 20 minutes/week on a key run (because that's also kind of fun by itself). tl;dr I am convinced that BL Keys are selling a fantasy of the big win. I can see that being worth a dollar/euro/pound to some. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einlanzer.1627 Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said: > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said: > > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > > The thing that frustrates me about this is the idea that the "house edge" should apply to gambling in an MMO - it shouldn't, because unlike with real gambling - it's an additive system based on RNG, not a zero-sum game. Neither game developers nor players seem to realize this, and it leads to exploitation and a lot of salt. > > > > > > > > In fact, **the players should have an edge with any video game-based gambling system, and should virtually always come out ahead in the long run**. If you open 100 BL chests, you should expect there to be a high likelihood that the stuff you end up with carries somewhat higher overall value than stuff you would have bought directly because you wanted it. Otherwise, you are being exploited. **They do not have BL chests tuned appropriately, and people need to scream about it until they change it or remove it altogether.** > > > > > > If it were a gambling system, maybe. It's not. It's a tool for selling moments of entertainment for a nominal price. They aren't selling the loot; they are selling the excitement of wondering if you might win big. > > > > Yes, it is a gambling system, because you pay money for RNG rewards. The problem is that the longer you play it, the more likely you are to **not** get your money's worth out of it - which is by necessity how actual real world gambling works, but is the opposite of how this type of gambling system needs to work if they want to actually make money off of it without pissing off their players constantly. > > > > Designing it like real-world gambling is blatant exploitation. > > We clearly disagree on what's being sold. I believe that the system is designed in a way that it's unreasonable to expect anyone will "get their money's worth" unless they are buying entertainment. At which point, the question is only: is it worth a dollar/euro equivalent to roll the dice? > > Like any lotto, they are selling a fantasy, not monetary equivalency. In RL lottos, about 50% of the proceeds goes into prizes, amortized over all the contestants. Given the huge jackpots, it means that most people are going to get returns far below average and a tiny fraction returns even farther above. The last time I calculated the monetary value of BL chests (based on then available drop rates and TP values, with gem:gold rates used for gem shop unlocks), it looked that BL keys offered about 70% return. (It's probably varied from 50% to 80% depending on the markets and contents). That's higher than RL lottos, but resulting in the same impact: lots of below average losers; a tiny fraction of far-above average winners. > > There's an argument that lottos exploit those bad at math... and it's been made since the very first lotto. However, even those good at math like the fantasy of imagining that they might be the one to win big. That's worth the occasional buck to me in RL. It's never worth it in game for me, although I'm willing to invest 20 minutes/week on a key run (because that's also kind of fun by itself). > > tl;dr I am convinced that BL Keys are selling a fantasy of the big win. I can see that being worth a dollar/euro/pound to some. If there was actually a big win involved, your argument might work, but there's not. It's a relatively high risk for a relatively low reward, with diminishing returns for the player to add insult to injury. That's broken as shit, and it's no wonder people complain about it regularly on the forums. They either need to make some _way_ more exciting potential BL rewards, or they need to retune the whole system to slightly favor players over the long run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omega Mayhem.7163 Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 Black Lion chests have been a worthless gamble for 5 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jheryn.8390 Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said: > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > The thing that frustrates me about this is the idea that the "house edge" should apply to gambling in an MMO - it shouldn't, because unlike with real gambling - it's an additive system based on RNG, not a zero-sum game. Neither game developers nor players seem to realize this, and it leads to exploitation and a lot of salt. > > > > > > In fact, **the players should have an edge with any video game-based gambling system, and should virtually always come out ahead in the long run**. If you open 100 BL chests, you should expect there to be a high likelihood that the stuff you end up with carries somewhat higher overall value than stuff you would have bought directly because you wanted it. Otherwise, you are being exploited. **They do not have BL chests tuned appropriately, and people need to scream about it until they change it or remove it altogether.** > > > > If it were a gambling system, maybe. It's not. It's a tool for selling moments of entertainment for a nominal price. They aren't selling the loot; they are selling the excitement of wondering if you might win big. > > Yes, it is a gambling system, because you pay money for RNG rewards. The problem is that the longer you play it, the more likely you are to **not** get your money's worth out of it - which is by necessity how actual real world gambling works, but is the opposite of how this type of gambling system needs to work if they want to actually make money off of it without pissing off their players constantly. > > Designing it like real-world gambling is blatant exploitation and not smart from a business perspective. No it is not a gambling system. In gambling you wager something with the possibility of walking away with nothing. Gambling is also advertised as such. So you know you may (probably) will lose your money. With BLC you are not losing something as you will always get something of value. You may personally think what mostly drops from BLC are worthless, but that is opinion not truth. And as IWN mentioned, you are buying a digital fantasy, NOT a chance at real world monetary gain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einlanzer.1627 Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 > @jheryn.8390 said: > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said: > > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > > The thing that frustrates me about this is the idea that the "house edge" should apply to gambling in an MMO - it shouldn't, because unlike with real gambling - it's an additive system based on RNG, not a zero-sum game. Neither game developers nor players seem to realize this, and it leads to exploitation and a lot of salt. > > > > > > > > In fact, **the players should have an edge with any video game-based gambling system, and should virtually always come out ahead in the long run**. If you open 100 BL chests, you should expect there to be a high likelihood that the stuff you end up with carries somewhat higher overall value than stuff you would have bought directly because you wanted it. Otherwise, you are being exploited. **They do not have BL chests tuned appropriately, and people need to scream about it until they change it or remove it altogether.** > > > > > > If it were a gambling system, maybe. It's not. It's a tool for selling moments of entertainment for a nominal price. They aren't selling the loot; they are selling the excitement of wondering if you might win big. > > > > Yes, it is a gambling system, because you pay money for RNG rewards. The problem is that the longer you play it, the more likely you are to **not** get your money's worth out of it - which is by necessity how actual real world gambling works, but is the opposite of how this type of gambling system needs to work if they want to actually make money off of it without pissing off their players constantly. > > > > Designing it like real-world gambling is blatant exploitation and not smart from a business perspective. > > No it is not a gambling system. In gambling you wager something with the possibility of walking away with nothing. Gambling is also advertised as such. So you know you may (probably) will lose your money. > > With BLC you are not losing something as you will always get something of value. You may personally think what mostly drops from BLC are worthless, but that is opinion not truth. > > And as IWN mentioned, you are buying a digital fantasy, NOT a chance at real world monetary gain. When you pay money - real or otherwise - into a system for RNG rewards (it could be nothing, it could be something of limited value, or it could be something of higher value than you put in) - that's gambling. Have you ever played a slot machine? This is basically identical to that, including the tuning of the reward quality. The problem is that, with a slot machine, there has to be a house edge because the casino pays out more the more people play, and they have to make a profit to keep running. Here, it's not zero-sum - arenanet is not paying out more for more people to play the game, so having a "house edge" that benefits Anet is corrupt as shit. One argument is that these kinds of systems shouldn't exist in video games at all, but if they do, they need to favor the player in terms of value in for value out over the long run. This isn't complicated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jheryn.8390 Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > @jheryn.8390 said: > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said: > > > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > > > The thing that frustrates me about this is the idea that the "house edge" should apply to gambling in an MMO - it shouldn't, because unlike with real gambling - it's an additive system based on RNG, not a zero-sum game. Neither game developers nor players seem to realize this, and it leads to exploitation and a lot of salt. > > > > > > > > > > In fact, **the players should have an edge with any video game-based gambling system, and should virtually always come out ahead in the long run**. If you open 100 BL chests, you should expect there to be a high likelihood that the stuff you end up with carries somewhat higher overall value than stuff you would have bought directly because you wanted it. Otherwise, you are being exploited. **They do not have BL chests tuned appropriately, and people need to scream about it until they change it or remove it altogether.** > > > > > > > > If it were a gambling system, maybe. It's not. It's a tool for selling moments of entertainment for a nominal price. They aren't selling the loot; they are selling the excitement of wondering if you might win big. > > > > > > Yes, it is a gambling system, because you pay money for RNG rewards. The problem is that the longer you play it, the more likely you are to **not** get your money's worth out of it - which is by necessity how actual real world gambling works, but is the opposite of how this type of gambling system needs to work if they want to actually make money off of it without pissing off their players constantly. > > > > > > Designing it like real-world gambling is blatant exploitation and not smart from a business perspective. > > > > No it is not a gambling system. In gambling you wager something with the possibility of walking away with nothing. Gambling is also advertised as such. So you know you may (probably) will lose your money. > > > > With BLC you are not losing something as you will always get something of value. You may personally think what mostly drops from BLC are worthless, but that is opinion not truth. > > > > And as IWN mentioned, you are buying a digital fantasy, NOT a chance at real world monetary gain. > > When you pay money - real or otherwise - into a system for RNG rewards (it could be nothing, it could be something of limited value, or it could be something of higher value than you put in) - that's gambling. Have you ever played a slot machine? This is basically identical to that, including the tuning of the reward quality. > > This isn't complicated. Agreed it is not that complicated. With a slot machine you get something or nothing. With BLC you ALWAYS get something. Always. You never have the possibility of getting nothing out of a BLC. This isn't a slot machine. It is a grab bag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einlanzer.1627 Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 > @jheryn.8390 said: > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > @jheryn.8390 said: > > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said: > > > > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > > > > The thing that frustrates me about this is the idea that the "house edge" should apply to gambling in an MMO - it shouldn't, because unlike with real gambling - it's an additive system based on RNG, not a zero-sum game. Neither game developers nor players seem to realize this, and it leads to exploitation and a lot of salt. > > > > > > > > > > > > In fact, **the players should have an edge with any video game-based gambling system, and should virtually always come out ahead in the long run**. If you open 100 BL chests, you should expect there to be a high likelihood that the stuff you end up with carries somewhat higher overall value than stuff you would have bought directly because you wanted it. Otherwise, you are being exploited. **They do not have BL chests tuned appropriately, and people need to scream about it until they change it or remove it altogether.** > > > > > > > > > > If it were a gambling system, maybe. It's not. It's a tool for selling moments of entertainment for a nominal price. They aren't selling the loot; they are selling the excitement of wondering if you might win big. > > > > > > > > Yes, it is a gambling system, because you pay money for RNG rewards. The problem is that the longer you play it, the more likely you are to **not** get your money's worth out of it - which is by necessity how actual real world gambling works, but is the opposite of how this type of gambling system needs to work if they want to actually make money off of it without pissing off their players constantly. > > > > > > > > Designing it like real-world gambling is blatant exploitation and not smart from a business perspective. > > > > > > No it is not a gambling system. In gambling you wager something with the possibility of walking away with nothing. Gambling is also advertised as such. So you know you may (probably) will lose your money. > > > > > > With BLC you are not losing something as you will always get something of value. You may personally think what mostly drops from BLC are worthless, but that is opinion not truth. > > > > > > And as IWN mentioned, you are buying a digital fantasy, NOT a chance at real world monetary gain. > > > > When you pay money - real or otherwise - into a system for RNG rewards (it could be nothing, it could be something of limited value, or it could be something of higher value than you put in) - that's gambling. Have you ever played a slot machine? This is basically identical to that, including the tuning of the reward quality. > > > > This isn't complicated. > > Agreed it is not that complicated. With a slot machine you get something or nothing. With BLC you ALWAYS get something. Always. You never have the possibility of getting nothing out of a BLC. > > This isn't a slot machine. It is a grab bag. With a slot machine, you always get returns if you play for any length of time. The problem is that those returns diminish, and you are far more likely to lose value than you are to gain it through the process of playing. This is exactly what happens with BLC, and it's a problem because, unlike casinos hosting slot machines, Arenanet doesn't need to have an edge to profit from the system. It's par for the course for people to become pedantic when they know their argument is weak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArchonWing.9480 Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 It's been this way for a while and it's awful. But then again people keep opening them anyways. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me for the 50th time,..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jheryn.8390 Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > @jheryn.8390 said: > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > > @jheryn.8390 said: > > > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > > > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said: > > > > > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > > > > > The thing that frustrates me about this is the idea that the "house edge" should apply to gambling in an MMO - it shouldn't, because unlike with real gambling - it's an additive system based on RNG, not a zero-sum game. Neither game developers nor players seem to realize this, and it leads to exploitation and a lot of salt. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In fact, **the players should have an edge with any video game-based gambling system, and should virtually always come out ahead in the long run**. If you open 100 BL chests, you should expect there to be a high likelihood that the stuff you end up with carries somewhat higher overall value than stuff you would have bought directly because you wanted it. Otherwise, you are being exploited. **They do not have BL chests tuned appropriately, and people need to scream about it until they change it or remove it altogether.** > > > > > > > > > > > > If it were a gambling system, maybe. It's not. It's a tool for selling moments of entertainment for a nominal price. They aren't selling the loot; they are selling the excitement of wondering if you might win big. > > > > > > > > > > Yes, it is a gambling system, because you pay money for RNG rewards. The problem is that the longer you play it, the more likely you are to **not** get your money's worth out of it - which is by necessity how actual real world gambling works, but is the opposite of how this type of gambling system needs to work if they want to actually make money off of it without pissing off their players constantly. > > > > > > > > > > Designing it like real-world gambling is blatant exploitation and not smart from a business perspective. > > > > > > > > No it is not a gambling system. In gambling you wager something with the possibility of walking away with nothing. Gambling is also advertised as such. So you know you may (probably) will lose your money. > > > > > > > > With BLC you are not losing something as you will always get something of value. You may personally think what mostly drops from BLC are worthless, but that is opinion not truth. > > > > > > > > And as IWN mentioned, you are buying a digital fantasy, NOT a chance at real world monetary gain. > > > > > > When you pay money - real or otherwise - into a system for RNG rewards (it could be nothing, it could be something of limited value, or it could be something of higher value than you put in) - that's gambling. Have you ever played a slot machine? This is basically identical to that, including the tuning of the reward quality. > > > > > > This isn't complicated. > > > > Agreed it is not that complicated. With a slot machine you get something or nothing. With BLC you ALWAYS get something. Always. You never have the possibility of getting nothing out of a BLC. > > > > This isn't a slot machine. It is a grab bag. > > With a slot machine, you always get returns if you play for any length of time. The problem is that those returns diminish, and you are far more likely to lose value than you are to gain it through the process of playing. This is exactly what happens with BLC, and it's a problem because, unlike casinos hosting slot machines, Arenanet doesn't need to have an edge to profit from the system. > > It's par for the course for people to become pedantic when they know their argument is weak. It is nothing like a slot machine. You always get returns with a BLC. Your comparison is wrong. No matter how you want to try to spin it, they are not the same. You always get something from a BLC and you never know what exactly it will be but you always get something. You almost NEVER get anything from a Slot Machine and you always know what it will be if you do. Money. I will agree that "It's par for the course for people to become pedantic when they know their argument is weak. " But your argument isn't weak, it's just wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einlanzer.1627 Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 > @jheryn.8390 said: > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > @jheryn.8390 said: > > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > > > @jheryn.8390 said: > > > > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > > > > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said: > > > > > > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > > > > > > The thing that frustrates me about this is the idea that the "house edge" should apply to gambling in an MMO - it shouldn't, because unlike with real gambling - it's an additive system based on RNG, not a zero-sum game. Neither game developers nor players seem to realize this, and it leads to exploitation and a lot of salt. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In fact, **the players should have an edge with any video game-based gambling system, and should virtually always come out ahead in the long run**. If you open 100 BL chests, you should expect there to be a high likelihood that the stuff you end up with carries somewhat higher overall value than stuff you would have bought directly because you wanted it. Otherwise, you are being exploited. **They do not have BL chests tuned appropriately, and people need to scream about it until they change it or remove it altogether.** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If it were a gambling system, maybe. It's not. It's a tool for selling moments of entertainment for a nominal price. They aren't selling the loot; they are selling the excitement of wondering if you might win big. > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, it is a gambling system, because you pay money for RNG rewards. The problem is that the longer you play it, the more likely you are to **not** get your money's worth out of it - which is by necessity how actual real world gambling works, but is the opposite of how this type of gambling system needs to work if they want to actually make money off of it without pissing off their players constantly. > > > > > > > > > > > > Designing it like real-world gambling is blatant exploitation and not smart from a business perspective. > > > > > > > > > > No it is not a gambling system. In gambling you wager something with the possibility of walking away with nothing. Gambling is also advertised as such. So you know you may (probably) will lose your money. > > > > > > > > > > With BLC you are not losing something as you will always get something of value. You may personally think what mostly drops from BLC are worthless, but that is opinion not truth. > > > > > > > > > > And as IWN mentioned, you are buying a digital fantasy, NOT a chance at real world monetary gain. > > > > > > > > When you pay money - real or otherwise - into a system for RNG rewards (it could be nothing, it could be something of limited value, or it could be something of higher value than you put in) - that's gambling. Have you ever played a slot machine? This is basically identical to that, including the tuning of the reward quality. > > > > > > > > This isn't complicated. > > > > > > Agreed it is not that complicated. With a slot machine you get something or nothing. With BLC you ALWAYS get something. Always. You never have the possibility of getting nothing out of a BLC. > > > > > > This isn't a slot machine. It is a grab bag. > > > > With a slot machine, you always get returns if you play for any length of time. The problem is that those returns diminish, and you are far more likely to lose value than you are to gain it through the process of playing. This is exactly what happens with BLC, and it's a problem because, unlike casinos hosting slot machines, Arenanet doesn't need to have an edge to profit from the system. > > > > It's par for the course for people to become pedantic when they know their argument is weak. > > It is nothing like a slot machine. You always get returns with a BLC. Your comparison is wrong. No matter how you want to try to spin it, they are not the same. > > You always get something from a BLC and you never know what exactly it will be but you always get something. > > You almost NEVER get anything from a Slot Machine and you always know what it will be if you do. Money. > > I will agree that "It's par for the course for people to become pedantic when they know their argument is weak. " But your argument isn't weak, it's just wrong. Pedantic is splitting hairs between the type of reward offered between a single roll of a slot machine vs a single opening of a BLC when clearly what matters are the statistics of what happens over time in terms of value in-value out. With a slot machine, you might get lucky and win big, or you may get nothing, but either way, the longer you play the more likely the odds swing out of your favor. It's the exact same with BLC - sure, you always get something, but what matters is overall value you get out vs the value you put in over time. If you spend money on 100 BLK and open 100 chests, you are more likely than not to **not** get a good return on your investment. But Anet isn't doling out real money, they are only receiving it, so there's no reason it should work that way. It would be better for players and for Anet to do what they can to make sure it's calibrated so that players have a slight edge in the returned value of buying BLK, rather than a handicap. The only difficult thing to control for here is the value of BL skins in the gem store, but, honestly, I think it's time they increased the drop rate on claim tickets even if it drops their prices in the store. Also, I love this whole argument of BLC being about the fantasy of what you might win as if that somehow differentiates it like it's not how all forms of gambling are marketed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jheryn.8390 Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > @jheryn.8390 said: > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > > @jheryn.8390 said: > > > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > > > > @jheryn.8390 said: > > > > > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > > > > > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said: > > > > > > > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > > > > > > > The thing that frustrates me about this is the idea that the "house edge" should apply to gambling in an MMO - it shouldn't, because unlike with real gambling - it's an additive system based on RNG, not a zero-sum game. Neither game developers nor players seem to realize this, and it leads to exploitation and a lot of salt. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In fact, **the players should have an edge with any video game-based gambling system, and should virtually always come out ahead in the long run**. If you open 100 BL chests, you should expect there to be a high likelihood that the stuff you end up with carries somewhat higher overall value than stuff you would have bought directly because you wanted it. Otherwise, you are being exploited. **They do not have BL chests tuned appropriately, and people need to scream about it until they change it or remove it altogether.** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If it were a gambling system, maybe. It's not. It's a tool for selling moments of entertainment for a nominal price. They aren't selling the loot; they are selling the excitement of wondering if you might win big. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, it is a gambling system, because you pay money for RNG rewards. The problem is that the longer you play it, the more likely you are to **not** get your money's worth out of it - which is by necessity how actual real world gambling works, but is the opposite of how this type of gambling system needs to work if they want to actually make money off of it without pissing off their players constantly. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Designing it like real-world gambling is blatant exploitation and not smart from a business perspective. > > > > > > > > > > > > No it is not a gambling system. In gambling you wager something with the possibility of walking away with nothing. Gambling is also advertised as such. So you know you may (probably) will lose your money. > > > > > > > > > > > > With BLC you are not losing something as you will always get something of value. You may personally think what mostly drops from BLC are worthless, but that is opinion not truth. > > > > > > > > > > > > And as IWN mentioned, you are buying a digital fantasy, NOT a chance at real world monetary gain. > > > > > > > > > > When you pay money - real or otherwise - into a system for RNG rewards (it could be nothing, it could be something of limited value, or it could be something of higher value than you put in) - that's gambling. Have you ever played a slot machine? This is basically identical to that, including the tuning of the reward quality. > > > > > > > > > > This isn't complicated. > > > > > > > > Agreed it is not that complicated. With a slot machine you get something or nothing. With BLC you ALWAYS get something. Always. You never have the possibility of getting nothing out of a BLC. > > > > > > > > This isn't a slot machine. It is a grab bag. > > > > > > With a slot machine, you always get returns if you play for any length of time. The problem is that those returns diminish, and you are far more likely to lose value than you are to gain it through the process of playing. This is exactly what happens with BLC, and it's a problem because, unlike casinos hosting slot machines, Arenanet doesn't need to have an edge to profit from the system. > > > > > > It's par for the course for people to become pedantic when they know their argument is weak. > > > > It is nothing like a slot machine. You always get returns with a BLC. Your comparison is wrong. No matter how you want to try to spin it, they are not the same. > > > > You always get something from a BLC and you never know what exactly it will be but you always get something. > > > > You almost NEVER get anything from a Slot Machine and you always know what it will be if you do. Money. > > > > I will agree that "It's par for the course for people to become pedantic when they know their argument is weak. " But your argument isn't weak, it's just wrong. > > > Pedantic is splitting hairs between the type of reward offered between a single roll of a slot machine vs a single opening of a BLC when clearly what matters are the statistics of what happens over time in terms of value in-value out. With a slot machine, you might get lucky and win big, or you may get nothing, but either way, the longer you play the more likely the odds swing out of your favor. It's the exact same with BLC - sure, you always get something, but what matters is overall value you get out vs the value you put in over time. > > If you spend money on 100 BLK and open 100 chests, you are more likely than not to **not** get a good return on your investment. But Anet isn't doling out real money, they are only receiving it, so there's no reason it should work that way. It would be better for players and for Anet to do what they can to make sure it's calibrated so that players have a slight edge in the returned value of buying BLK, rather than a handicap. > > Also, I love this whole argument of BLC being about the fantasy of what you might win as if that somehow differentiates it like it's not how all forms of gambling are marketed. It's not splitting hairs looking at 1 or 100 pulls or openings. In 100 pulls of a slot machine you could still get nothing. Many do. Odds are NOT in the player of a slot machine's favor. Also, reward value is subjective with BLC drops and it is constant with a slot machine. You always get money which has consistent value. The other thing you said that I actually laughed out loud at was "get a good return on your investment." Playing with BLC is in no way an investment. No even close. Anyone who buys keys in whatever way they purchase them knows what is in the BLC and that the possibility of getting any of the rare or super rare drops is minuscule. It is an investment like going to your local bakery, buying a bunch of their grab bags hoping you will get a bunch of fresh apple turnovers and getting all three day old plain doughnuts. If you don't want to get what you are likely to get out of the BLC, then don't buy the keys. How easy is that? Don't blame the company that sells the keys because you got exactly what you knew you might get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einlanzer.1627 Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 > @jheryn.8390 said: > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > @jheryn.8390 said: > > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > > > @jheryn.8390 said: > > > > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > > > > > @jheryn.8390 said: > > > > > > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > > > > > > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said: > > > > > > > > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > > > > > > > > The thing that frustrates me about this is the idea that the "house edge" should apply to gambling in an MMO - it shouldn't, because unlike with real gambling - it's an additive system based on RNG, not a zero-sum game. Neither game developers nor players seem to realize this, and it leads to exploitation and a lot of salt. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In fact, **the players should have an edge with any video game-based gambling system, and should virtually always come out ahead in the long run**. If you open 100 BL chests, you should expect there to be a high likelihood that the stuff you end up with carries somewhat higher overall value than stuff you would have bought directly because you wanted it. Otherwise, you are being exploited. **They do not have BL chests tuned appropriately, and people need to scream about it until they change it or remove it altogether.** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If it were a gambling system, maybe. It's not. It's a tool for selling moments of entertainment for a nominal price. They aren't selling the loot; they are selling the excitement of wondering if you might win big. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, it is a gambling system, because you pay money for RNG rewards. The problem is that the longer you play it, the more likely you are to **not** get your money's worth out of it - which is by necessity how actual real world gambling works, but is the opposite of how this type of gambling system needs to work if they want to actually make money off of it without pissing off their players constantly. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Designing it like real-world gambling is blatant exploitation and not smart from a business perspective. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No it is not a gambling system. In gambling you wager something with the possibility of walking away with nothing. Gambling is also advertised as such. So you know you may (probably) will lose your money. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > With BLC you are not losing something as you will always get something of value. You may personally think what mostly drops from BLC are worthless, but that is opinion not truth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And as IWN mentioned, you are buying a digital fantasy, NOT a chance at real world monetary gain. > > > > > > > > > > > > When you pay money - real or otherwise - into a system for RNG rewards (it could be nothing, it could be something of limited value, or it could be something of higher value than you put in) - that's gambling. Have you ever played a slot machine? This is basically identical to that, including the tuning of the reward quality. > > > > > > > > > > > > This isn't complicated. > > > > > > > > > > Agreed it is not that complicated. With a slot machine you get something or nothing. With BLC you ALWAYS get something. Always. You never have the possibility of getting nothing out of a BLC. > > > > > > > > > > This isn't a slot machine. It is a grab bag. > > > > > > > > With a slot machine, you always get returns if you play for any length of time. The problem is that those returns diminish, and you are far more likely to lose value than you are to gain it through the process of playing. This is exactly what happens with BLC, and it's a problem because, unlike casinos hosting slot machines, Arenanet doesn't need to have an edge to profit from the system. > > > > > > > > It's par for the course for people to become pedantic when they know their argument is weak. > > > > > > It is nothing like a slot machine. You always get returns with a BLC. Your comparison is wrong. No matter how you want to try to spin it, they are not the same. > > > > > > You always get something from a BLC and you never know what exactly it will be but you always get something. > > > > > > You almost NEVER get anything from a Slot Machine and you always know what it will be if you do. Money. > > > > > > I will agree that "It's par for the course for people to become pedantic when they know their argument is weak. " But your argument isn't weak, it's just wrong. > > > > > > Pedantic is splitting hairs between the type of reward offered between a single roll of a slot machine vs a single opening of a BLC when clearly what matters are the statistics of what happens over time in terms of value in-value out. With a slot machine, you might get lucky and win big, or you may get nothing, but either way, the longer you play the more likely the odds swing out of your favor. It's the exact same with BLC - sure, you always get something, but what matters is overall value you get out vs the value you put in over time. > > > > If you spend money on 100 BLK and open 100 chests, you are more likely than not to **not** get a good return on your investment. But Anet isn't doling out real money, they are only receiving it, so there's no reason it should work that way. It would be better for players and for Anet to do what they can to make sure it's calibrated so that players have a slight edge in the returned value of buying BLK, rather than a handicap. > > > > Also, I love this whole argument of BLC being about the fantasy of what you might win as if that somehow differentiates it like it's not how all forms of gambling are marketed. > > It's not splitting hairs looking at 1 or 100 pulls or openings. In 100 pulls of a slot machine you could still get nothing. Many do. Odds are NOT in the player of a slot machine's favor. > > Also, reward value is subjective with BLC drops and it is constant with a slot machine. You always get money which has consistent value. > > The other thing you said that I actually laughed out loud at was "get a good return on your investment." Playing with BLC is in no way an investment. No even close. Anyone who buys keys in whatever way they purchase them knows what is in the BLC and that the possibility of getting any of the rare or super rare drops is minuscule. It is an investment like going to your local bakery, buying a bunch of their grab bags hoping you will get a bunch of fresh apple turnovers and getting all three day old plain doughnuts. > > If you don't want to get what you are likely to get out of the BLC, then don't buy the keys. How easy is that? Don't blame the company that sells the keys because you got exactly what you knew you might get. > @jheryn.8390 said: > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > @jheryn.8390 said: > > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > > > @jheryn.8390 said: > > > > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > > > > > @jheryn.8390 said: > > > > > > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > > > > > > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said: > > > > > > > > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > > > > > > > > The thing that frustrates me about this is the idea that the "house edge" should apply to gambling in an MMO - it shouldn't, because unlike with real gambling - it's an additive system based on RNG, not a zero-sum game. Neither game developers nor players seem to realize this, and it leads to exploitation and a lot of salt. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In fact, **the players should have an edge with any video game-based gambling system, and should virtually always come out ahead in the long run**. If you open 100 BL chests, you should expect there to be a high likelihood that the stuff you end up with carries somewhat higher overall value than stuff you would have bought directly because you wanted it. Otherwise, you are being exploited. **They do not have BL chests tuned appropriately, and people need to scream about it until they change it or remove it altogether.** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If it were a gambling system, maybe. It's not. It's a tool for selling moments of entertainment for a nominal price. They aren't selling the loot; they are selling the excitement of wondering if you might win big. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, it is a gambling system, because you pay money for RNG rewards. The problem is that the longer you play it, the more likely you are to **not** get your money's worth out of it - which is by necessity how actual real world gambling works, but is the opposite of how this type of gambling system needs to work if they want to actually make money off of it without pissing off their players constantly. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Designing it like real-world gambling is blatant exploitation and not smart from a business perspective. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No it is not a gambling system. In gambling you wager something with the possibility of walking away with nothing. Gambling is also advertised as such. So you know you may (probably) will lose your money. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > With BLC you are not losing something as you will always get something of value. You may personally think what mostly drops from BLC are worthless, but that is opinion not truth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And as IWN mentioned, you are buying a digital fantasy, NOT a chance at real world monetary gain. > > > > > > > > > > > > When you pay money - real or otherwise - into a system for RNG rewards (it could be nothing, it could be something of limited value, or it could be something of higher value than you put in) - that's gambling. Have you ever played a slot machine? This is basically identical to that, including the tuning of the reward quality. > > > > > > > > > > > > This isn't complicated. > > > > > > > > > > Agreed it is not that complicated. With a slot machine you get something or nothing. With BLC you ALWAYS get something. Always. You never have the possibility of getting nothing out of a BLC. > > > > > > > > > > This isn't a slot machine. It is a grab bag. > > > > > > > > With a slot machine, you always get returns if you play for any length of time. The problem is that those returns diminish, and you are far more likely to lose value than you are to gain it through the process of playing. This is exactly what happens with BLC, and it's a problem because, unlike casinos hosting slot machines, Arenanet doesn't need to have an edge to profit from the system. > > > > > > > > It's par for the course for people to become pedantic when they know their argument is weak. > > > > > > It is nothing like a slot machine. You always get returns with a BLC. Your comparison is wrong. No matter how you want to try to spin it, they are not the same. > > > > > > You always get something from a BLC and you never know what exactly it will be but you always get something. > > > > > > You almost NEVER get anything from a Slot Machine and you always know what it will be if you do. Money. > > > > > > I will agree that "It's par for the course for people to become pedantic when they know their argument is weak. " But your argument isn't weak, it's just wrong. > > > > > > Pedantic is splitting hairs between the type of reward offered between a single roll of a slot machine vs a single opening of a BLC when clearly what matters are the statistics of what happens over time in terms of value in-value out. With a slot machine, you might get lucky and win big, or you may get nothing, but either way, the longer you play the more likely the odds swing out of your favor. It's the exact same with BLC - sure, you always get something, but what matters is overall value you get out vs the value you put in over time. > > > > If you spend money on 100 BLK and open 100 chests, you are more likely than not to **not** get a good return on your investment. But Anet isn't doling out real money, they are only receiving it, so there's no reason it should work that way. It would be better for players and for Anet to do what they can to make sure it's calibrated so that players have a slight edge in the returned value of buying BLK, rather than a handicap. > > > > Also, I love this whole argument of BLC being about the fantasy of what you might win as if that somehow differentiates it like it's not how all forms of gambling are marketed. > > It's not splitting hairs looking at 1 or 100 pulls or openings. In 100 pulls of a slot machine you could still get nothing. Many do. Odds are NOT in the player of a slot machine's favor. > It's technically possible, but highly unlikely. The odds are not in the player's favor that they will be ahead after 100 pulls, which is by design, because the casino wouldn't make a profit otherwise. The problem is that this design paradigm is carried into video game gambling systems, which is inappropriate. Anet makes a profit from BLK regardless of what people win or don't win out of them. In fact, making the rewards crappy is as harmful to Anet as it is to players. > Also, reward value is subjective with BLC drops and it is constant with a slot machine. You always get money which has consistent value. > > The other thing you said that I actually laughed out loud at was "get a good return on your investment." Playing with BLC is in no way an investment. No even close. Anyone who buys keys in whatever way they purchase them knows what is in the BLC and that the possibility of getting any of the rare or super rare drops is minuscule. It is an investment like going to your local bakery, buying a bunch of their grab bags hoping you will get a bunch of fresh apple turnovers and getting all three day old plain doughnuts. > Congratulations! You understand the problem now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jheryn.8390 Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > @jheryn.8390 said: > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > > @jheryn.8390 said: > > > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > > > > @jheryn.8390 said: > > > > > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > > > > > > @jheryn.8390 said: > > > > > > > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > > > > > > > > > The thing that frustrates me about this is the idea that the "house edge" should apply to gambling in an MMO - it shouldn't, because unlike with real gambling - it's an additive system based on RNG, not a zero-sum game. Neither game developers nor players seem to realize this, and it leads to exploitation and a lot of salt. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In fact, **the players should have an edge with any video game-based gambling system, and should virtually always come out ahead in the long run**. If you open 100 BL chests, you should expect there to be a high likelihood that the stuff you end up with carries somewhat higher overall value than stuff you would have bought directly because you wanted it. Otherwise, you are being exploited. **They do not have BL chests tuned appropriately, and people need to scream about it until they change it or remove it altogether.** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If it were a gambling system, maybe. It's not. It's a tool for selling moments of entertainment for a nominal price. They aren't selling the loot; they are selling the excitement of wondering if you might win big. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, it is a gambling system, because you pay money for RNG rewards. The problem is that the longer you play it, the more likely you are to **not** get your money's worth out of it - which is by necessity how actual real world gambling works, but is the opposite of how this type of gambling system needs to work if they want to actually make money off of it without pissing off their players constantly. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Designing it like real-world gambling is blatant exploitation and not smart from a business perspective. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No it is not a gambling system. In gambling you wager something with the possibility of walking away with nothing. Gambling is also advertised as such. So you know you may (probably) will lose your money. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > With BLC you are not losing something as you will always get something of value. You may personally think what mostly drops from BLC are worthless, but that is opinion not truth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And as IWN mentioned, you are buying a digital fantasy, NOT a chance at real world monetary gain. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When you pay money - real or otherwise - into a system for RNG rewards (it could be nothing, it could be something of limited value, or it could be something of higher value than you put in) - that's gambling. Have you ever played a slot machine? This is basically identical to that, including the tuning of the reward quality. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This isn't complicated. > > > > > > > > > > > > Agreed it is not that complicated. With a slot machine you get something or nothing. With BLC you ALWAYS get something. Always. You never have the possibility of getting nothing out of a BLC. > > > > > > > > > > > > This isn't a slot machine. It is a grab bag. > > > > > > > > > > With a slot machine, you always get returns if you play for any length of time. The problem is that those returns diminish, and you are far more likely to lose value than you are to gain it through the process of playing. This is exactly what happens with BLC, and it's a problem because, unlike casinos hosting slot machines, Arenanet doesn't need to have an edge to profit from the system. > > > > > > > > > > It's par for the course for people to become pedantic when they know their argument is weak. > > > > > > > > It is nothing like a slot machine. You always get returns with a BLC. Your comparison is wrong. No matter how you want to try to spin it, they are not the same. > > > > > > > > You always get something from a BLC and you never know what exactly it will be but you always get something. > > > > > > > > You almost NEVER get anything from a Slot Machine and you always know what it will be if you do. Money. > > > > > > > > I will agree that "It's par for the course for people to become pedantic when they know their argument is weak. " But your argument isn't weak, it's just wrong. > > > > > > > > > Pedantic is splitting hairs between the type of reward offered between a single roll of a slot machine vs a single opening of a BLC when clearly what matters are the statistics of what happens over time in terms of value in-value out. With a slot machine, you might get lucky and win big, or you may get nothing, but either way, the longer you play the more likely the odds swing out of your favor. It's the exact same with BLC - sure, you always get something, but what matters is overall value you get out vs the value you put in over time. > > > > > > If you spend money on 100 BLK and open 100 chests, you are more likely than not to **not** get a good return on your investment. But Anet isn't doling out real money, they are only receiving it, so there's no reason it should work that way. It would be better for players and for Anet to do what they can to make sure it's calibrated so that players have a slight edge in the returned value of buying BLK, rather than a handicap. > > > > > > Also, I love this whole argument of BLC being about the fantasy of what you might win as if that somehow differentiates it like it's not how all forms of gambling are marketed. > > > > It's not splitting hairs looking at 1 or 100 pulls or openings. In 100 pulls of a slot machine you could still get nothing. Many do. Odds are NOT in the player of a slot machine's favor. > > > > Also, reward value is subjective with BLC drops and it is constant with a slot machine. You always get money which has consistent value. > > > > The other thing you said that I actually laughed out loud at was "get a good return on your investment." Playing with BLC is in no way an investment. No even close. Anyone who buys keys in whatever way they purchase them knows what is in the BLC and that the possibility of getting any of the rare or super rare drops is minuscule. It is an investment like going to your local bakery, buying a bunch of their grab bags hoping you will get a bunch of fresh apple turnovers and getting all three day old plain doughnuts. > > > > If you don't want to get what you are likely to get out of the BLC, then don't buy the keys. How easy is that? Don't blame the company that sells the keys because you got exactly what you knew you might get. > > > @jheryn.8390 said: > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > > @jheryn.8390 said: > > > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > > > > @jheryn.8390 said: > > > > > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > > > > > > @jheryn.8390 said: > > > > > > > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > > > > > > > > > The thing that frustrates me about this is the idea that the "house edge" should apply to gambling in an MMO - it shouldn't, because unlike with real gambling - it's an additive system based on RNG, not a zero-sum game. Neither game developers nor players seem to realize this, and it leads to exploitation and a lot of salt. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In fact, **the players should have an edge with any video game-based gambling system, and should virtually always come out ahead in the long run**. If you open 100 BL chests, you should expect there to be a high likelihood that the stuff you end up with carries somewhat higher overall value than stuff you would have bought directly because you wanted it. Otherwise, you are being exploited. **They do not have BL chests tuned appropriately, and people need to scream about it until they change it or remove it altogether.** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If it were a gambling system, maybe. It's not. It's a tool for selling moments of entertainment for a nominal price. They aren't selling the loot; they are selling the excitement of wondering if you might win big. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, it is a gambling system, because you pay money for RNG rewards. The problem is that the longer you play it, the more likely you are to **not** get your money's worth out of it - which is by necessity how actual real world gambling works, but is the opposite of how this type of gambling system needs to work if they want to actually make money off of it without pissing off their players constantly. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Designing it like real-world gambling is blatant exploitation and not smart from a business perspective. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No it is not a gambling system. In gambling you wager something with the possibility of walking away with nothing. Gambling is also advertised as such. So you know you may (probably) will lose your money. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > With BLC you are not losing something as you will always get something of value. You may personally think what mostly drops from BLC are worthless, but that is opinion not truth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And as IWN mentioned, you are buying a digital fantasy, NOT a chance at real world monetary gain. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When you pay money - real or otherwise - into a system for RNG rewards (it could be nothing, it could be something of limited value, or it could be something of higher value than you put in) - that's gambling. Have you ever played a slot machine? This is basically identical to that, including the tuning of the reward quality. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This isn't complicated. > > > > > > > > > > > > Agreed it is not that complicated. With a slot machine you get something or nothing. With BLC you ALWAYS get something. Always. You never have the possibility of getting nothing out of a BLC. > > > > > > > > > > > > This isn't a slot machine. It is a grab bag. > > > > > > > > > > With a slot machine, you always get returns if you play for any length of time. The problem is that those returns diminish, and you are far more likely to lose value than you are to gain it through the process of playing. This is exactly what happens with BLC, and it's a problem because, unlike casinos hosting slot machines, Arenanet doesn't need to have an edge to profit from the system. > > > > > > > > > > It's par for the course for people to become pedantic when they know their argument is weak. > > > > > > > > It is nothing like a slot machine. You always get returns with a BLC. Your comparison is wrong. No matter how you want to try to spin it, they are not the same. > > > > > > > > You always get something from a BLC and you never know what exactly it will be but you always get something. > > > > > > > > You almost NEVER get anything from a Slot Machine and you always know what it will be if you do. Money. > > > > > > > > I will agree that "It's par for the course for people to become pedantic when they know their argument is weak. " But your argument isn't weak, it's just wrong. > > > > > > > > > Pedantic is splitting hairs between the type of reward offered between a single roll of a slot machine vs a single opening of a BLC when clearly what matters are the statistics of what happens over time in terms of value in-value out. With a slot machine, you might get lucky and win big, or you may get nothing, but either way, the longer you play the more likely the odds swing out of your favor. It's the exact same with BLC - sure, you always get something, but what matters is overall value you get out vs the value you put in over time. > > > > > > If you spend money on 100 BLK and open 100 chests, you are more likely than not to **not** get a good return on your investment. But Anet isn't doling out real money, they are only receiving it, so there's no reason it should work that way. It would be better for players and for Anet to do what they can to make sure it's calibrated so that players have a slight edge in the returned value of buying BLK, rather than a handicap. > > > > > > Also, I love this whole argument of BLC being about the fantasy of what you might win as if that somehow differentiates it like it's not how all forms of gambling are marketed. > > > > It's not splitting hairs looking at 1 or 100 pulls or openings. In 100 pulls of a slot machine you could still get nothing. Many do. Odds are NOT in the player of a slot machine's favor. > > > It's technically possible, but highly unlikely. The odds are not in the player's favor that they will be ahead after 100 pulls, which is by design, because the casino wouldn't make a profit otherwise. The problem is that this design paradigm is carried into video game gambling systems, which is inappropriate. Anet makes a profit from BLK regardless of what people win or don't win out of them. In fact, making the rewards crappy is as harmful to Anet as it is to players. > Ya think? Although after 100 openings of a black lion chest you have at least 300 items of value. After a 100 pulls of a slot machine you more than likely are going to be much poorer than before you started playing. And profit is the goal for BLC keys. Why else would they sell them? And if you don't like the system, then why do you buy them and why are you arguing about it? And for the umpteenth time, it isn't gambling it is buying grab bags and therefore highly appropriate. > > Also, reward value is subjective with BLC drops and it is constant with a slot machine. You always get money which has consistent value. > > > > > The other thing you said that I actually laughed out loud at was "get a good return on your investment." Playing with BLC is in no way an investment. No even close. Anyone who buys keys in whatever way they purchase them knows what is in the BLC and that the possibility of getting any of the rare or super rare drops is minuscule. It is an investment like going to your local bakery, buying a bunch of their grab bags hoping you will get a bunch of fresh apple turnovers and getting all three day old plain doughnuts. > > > Congratulations! You understand the problem now. > I always did understand how BLC work, I wish you did. Buying grab bags is not gambling. You are going to get something, even if it isn't something you want. Same with the BLC. That you don't understand that is baffling. There is no investment in buying grab bags and you only have yourself to blame when you do. It has nothing to do with gambling. And if you know that, then why do you keep arguing? You get something. It's not gambling. The end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einlanzer.1627 Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 > @jheryn.8390 said: > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > @jheryn.8390 said: > > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > > > @jheryn.8390 said: > > > > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > > > > > @jheryn.8390 said: > > > > > > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > > > > > > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said: > > > > > > > > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > > > > > > > > The thing that frustrates me about this is the idea that the "house edge" should apply to gambling in an MMO - it shouldn't, because unlike with real gambling - it's an additive system based on RNG, not a zero-sum game. Neither game developers nor players seem to realize this, and it leads to exploitation and a lot of salt. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In fact, **the players should have an edge with any video game-based gambling system, and should virtually always come out ahead in the long run**. If you open 100 BL chests, you should expect there to be a high likelihood that the stuff you end up with carries somewhat higher overall value than stuff you would have bought directly because you wanted it. Otherwise, you are being exploited. **They do not have BL chests tuned appropriately, and people need to scream about it until they change it or remove it altogether.** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If it were a gambling system, maybe. It's not. It's a tool for selling moments of entertainment for a nominal price. They aren't selling the loot; they are selling the excitement of wondering if you might win big. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, it is a gambling system, because you pay money for RNG rewards. The problem is that the longer you play it, the more likely you are to **not** get your money's worth out of it - which is by necessity how actual real world gambling works, but is the opposite of how this type of gambling system needs to work if they want to actually make money off of it without pissing off their players constantly. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Designing it like real-world gambling is blatant exploitation and not smart from a business perspective. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No it is not a gambling system. In gambling you wager something with the possibility of walking away with nothing. Gambling is also advertised as such. So you know you may (probably) will lose your money. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > With BLC you are not losing something as you will always get something of value. You may personally think what mostly drops from BLC are worthless, but that is opinion not truth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And as IWN mentioned, you are buying a digital fantasy, NOT a chance at real world monetary gain. > > > > > > > > > > > > When you pay money - real or otherwise - into a system for RNG rewards (it could be nothing, it could be something of limited value, or it could be something of higher value than you put in) - that's gambling. Have you ever played a slot machine? This is basically identical to that, including the tuning of the reward quality. > > > > > > > > > > > > This isn't complicated. > > > > > > > > > > Agreed it is not that complicated. With a slot machine you get something or nothing. With BLC you ALWAYS get something. Always. You never have the possibility of getting nothing out of a BLC. > > > > > > > > > > This isn't a slot machine. It is a grab bag. > > > > > > > > With a slot machine, you always get returns if you play for any length of time. The problem is that those returns diminish, and you are far more likely to lose value than you are to gain it through the process of playing. This is exactly what happens with BLC, and it's a problem because, unlike casinos hosting slot machines, Arenanet doesn't need to have an edge to profit from the system. > > > > > > > > It's par for the course for people to become pedantic when they know their argument is weak. > > > > > > It is nothing like a slot machine. You always get returns with a BLC. Your comparison is wrong. No matter how you want to try to spin it, they are not the same. > > > > > > You always get something from a BLC and you never know what exactly it will be but you always get something. > > > > > > You almost NEVER get anything from a Slot Machine and you always know what it will be if you do. Money. > > > > > > I will agree that "It's par for the course for people to become pedantic when they know their argument is weak. " But your argument isn't weak, it's just wrong. > > > > > > Pedantic is splitting hairs between the type of reward offered between a single roll of a slot machine vs a single opening of a BLC when clearly what matters are the statistics of what happens over time in terms of value in-value out. With a slot machine, you might get lucky and win big, or you may get nothing, but either way, the longer you play the more likely the odds swing out of your favor. It's the exact same with BLC - sure, you always get something, but what matters is overall value you get out vs the value you put in over time. > > > > If you spend money on 100 BLK and open 100 chests, you are more likely than not to **not** get a good return on your investment. But Anet isn't doling out real money, they are only receiving it, so there's no reason it should work that way. It would be better for players and for Anet to do what they can to make sure it's calibrated so that players have a slight edge in the returned value of buying BLK, rather than a handicap. > > > > Also, I love this whole argument of BLC being about the fantasy of what you might win as if that somehow differentiates it like it's not how all forms of gambling are marketed. > > It's not splitting hairs looking at 1 or 100 pulls or openings. In 100 pulls of a slot machine you could still get nothing. Many do. Odds are NOT in the player of a slot machine's favor. > > Also, reward value is subjective with BLC drops and it is constant with a slot machine. You always get money which has consistent value. > > The other thing you said that I actually laughed out loud at was "get a good return on your investment." Playing with BLC is in no way an investment. No even close. Anyone who buys keys in whatever way they purchase them knows what is in the BLC and that the possibility of getting any of the rare or super rare drops is minuscule. It is an investment like going to your local bakery, buying a bunch of their grab bags hoping you will get a bunch of fresh apple turnovers and getting all three day old plain doughnuts. > > If you don't want to get what you are likely to get out of the BLC, then don't buy the keys. How easy is that? Don't blame the company that sells the keys because you got exactly what you knew you might get. > @jheryn.8390 said: > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > @jheryn.8390 said: > > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > > > @jheryn.8390 said: > > > > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > > > > > @jheryn.8390 said: > > > > > > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > > > > > > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said: > > > > > > > > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > > > > > > > > The thing that frustrates me about this is the idea that the "house edge" should apply to gambling in an MMO - it shouldn't, because unlike with real gambling - it's an additive system based on RNG, not a zero-sum game. Neither game developers nor players seem to realize this, and it leads to exploitation and a lot of salt. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In fact, **the players should have an edge with any video game-based gambling system, and should virtually always come out ahead in the long run**. If you open 100 BL chests, you should expect there to be a high likelihood that the stuff you end up with carries somewhat higher overall value than stuff you would have bought directly because you wanted it. Otherwise, you are being exploited. **They do not have BL chests tuned appropriately, and people need to scream about it until they change it or remove it altogether.** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If it were a gambling system, maybe. It's not. It's a tool for selling moments of entertainment for a nominal price. They aren't selling the loot; they are selling the excitement of wondering if you might win big. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, it is a gambling system, because you pay money for RNG rewards. The problem is that the longer you play it, the more likely you are to **not** get your money's worth out of it - which is by necessity how actual real world gambling works, but is the opposite of how this type of gambling system needs to work if they want to actually make money off of it without pissing off their players constantly. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Designing it like real-world gambling is blatant exploitation and not smart from a business perspective. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No it is not a gambling system. In gambling you wager something with the possibility of walking away with nothing. Gambling is also advertised as such. So you know you may (probably) will lose your money. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > With BLC you are not losing something as you will always get something of value. You may personally think what mostly drops from BLC are worthless, but that is opinion not truth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And as IWN mentioned, you are buying a digital fantasy, NOT a chance at real world monetary gain. > > > > > > > > > > > > When you pay money - real or otherwise - into a system for RNG rewards (it could be nothing, it could be something of limited value, or it could be something of higher value than you put in) - that's gambling. Have you ever played a slot machine? This is basically identical to that, including the tuning of the reward quality. > > > > > > > > > > > > This isn't complicated. > > > > > > > > > > Agreed it is not that complicated. With a slot machine you get something or nothing. With BLC you ALWAYS get something. Always. You never have the possibility of getting nothing out of a BLC. > > > > > > > > > > This isn't a slot machine. It is a grab bag. > > > > > > > > With a slot machine, you always get returns if you play for any length of time. The problem is that those returns diminish, and you are far more likely to lose value than you are to gain it through the process of playing. This is exactly what happens with BLC, and it's a problem because, unlike casinos hosting slot machines, Arenanet doesn't need to have an edge to profit from the system. > > > > > > > > It's par for the course for people to become pedantic when they know their argument is weak. > > > > > > It is nothing like a slot machine. You always get returns with a BLC. Your comparison is wrong. No matter how you want to try to spin it, they are not the same. > > > > > > You always get something from a BLC and you never know what exactly it will be but you always get something. > > > > > > You almost NEVER get anything from a Slot Machine and you always know what it will be if you do. Money. > > > > > > I will agree that "It's par for the course for people to become pedantic when they know their argument is weak. " But your argument isn't weak, it's just wrong. > > > > > > Pedantic is splitting hairs between the type of reward offered between a single roll of a slot machine vs a single opening of a BLC when clearly what matters are the statistics of what happens over time in terms of value in-value out. With a slot machine, you might get lucky and win big, or you may get nothing, but either way, the longer you play the more likely the odds swing out of your favor. It's the exact same with BLC - sure, you always get something, but what matters is overall value you get out vs the value you put in over time. > > > > If you spend money on 100 BLK and open 100 chests, you are more likely than not to **not** get a good return on your investment. But Anet isn't doling out real money, they are only receiving it, so there's no reason it should work that way. It would be better for players and for Anet to do what they can to make sure it's calibrated so that players have a slight edge in the returned value of buying BLK, rather than a handicap. > > > > Also, I love this whole argument of BLC being about the fantasy of what you might win as if that somehow differentiates it like it's not how all forms of gambling are marketed. > > It's not splitting hairs looking at 1 or 100 pulls or openings. In 100 pulls of a slot machine you could still get nothing. Many do. Odds are NOT in the player of a slot machine's favor. > > Also, reward value is subjective with BLC drops and it is constant with a slot machine. You always get money which has consistent value. > > The other thing you said that I actually laughed out loud at was "get a good return on your investment." Playing with BLC is in no way an investment. No even close. Anyone who buys keys in whatever way they purchase them knows what is in the BLC and that the possibility of getting any of the rare or super rare drops is minuscule. It is an investment like going to your local bakery, buying a bunch of their grab bags hoping you will get a bunch of fresh apple turnovers and getting all three day old plain doughnuts. > > If you don't want to get what you are likely to get out of the BLC, then don't buy the keys. How easy is that? Don't blame the company that sells the keys because you got exactly what you knew you might get. > @jheryn.8390 said: > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > @jheryn.8390 said: > > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > > > @jheryn.8390 said: > > > > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > > > > > @jheryn.8390 said: > > > > > > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > > > > > > > @jheryn.8390 said: > > > > > > > > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > > > > > > > > > > The thing that frustrates me about this is the idea that the "house edge" should apply to gambling in an MMO - it shouldn't, because unlike with real gambling - it's an additive system based on RNG, not a zero-sum game. Neither game developers nor players seem to realize this, and it leads to exploitation and a lot of salt. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In fact, **the players should have an edge with any video game-based gambling system, and should virtually always come out ahead in the long run**. If you open 100 BL chests, you should expect there to be a high likelihood that the stuff you end up with carries somewhat higher overall value than stuff you would have bought directly because you wanted it. Otherwise, you are being exploited. **They do not have BL chests tuned appropriately, and people need to scream about it until they change it or remove it altogether.** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If it were a gambling system, maybe. It's not. It's a tool for selling moments of entertainment for a nominal price. They aren't selling the loot; they are selling the excitement of wondering if you might win big. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, it is a gambling system, because you pay money for RNG rewards. The problem is that the longer you play it, the more likely you are to **not** get your money's worth out of it - which is by necessity how actual real world gambling works, but is the opposite of how this type of gambling system needs to work if they want to actually make money off of it without pissing off their players constantly. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Designing it like real-world gambling is blatant exploitation and not smart from a business perspective. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No it is not a gambling system. In gambling you wager something with the possibility of walking away with nothing. Gambling is also advertised as such. So you know you may (probably) will lose your money. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > With BLC you are not losing something as you will always get something of value. You may personally think what mostly drops from BLC are worthless, but that is opinion not truth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And as IWN mentioned, you are buying a digital fantasy, NOT a chance at real world monetary gain. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When you pay money - real or otherwise - into a system for RNG rewards (it could be nothing, it could be something of limited value, or it could be something of higher value than you put in) - that's gambling. Have you ever played a slot machine? This is basically identical to that, including the tuning of the reward quality. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This isn't complicated. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Agreed it is not that complicated. With a slot machine you get something or nothing. With BLC you ALWAYS get something. Always. You never have the possibility of getting nothing out of a BLC. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This isn't a slot machine. It is a grab bag. > > > > > > > > > > > > With a slot machine, you always get returns if you play for any length of time. The problem is that those returns diminish, and you are far more likely to lose value than you are to gain it through the process of playing. This is exactly what happens with BLC, and it's a problem because, unlike casinos hosting slot machines, Arenanet doesn't need to have an edge to profit from the system. > > > > > > > > > > > > It's par for the course for people to become pedantic when they know their argument is weak. > > > > > > > > > > It is nothing like a slot machine. You always get returns with a BLC. Your comparison is wrong. No matter how you want to try to spin it, they are not the same. > > > > > > > > > > You always get something from a BLC and you never know what exactly it will be but you always get something. > > > > > > > > > > You almost NEVER get anything from a Slot Machine and you always know what it will be if you do. Money. > > > > > > > > > > I will agree that "It's par for the course for people to become pedantic when they know their argument is weak. " But your argument isn't weak, it's just wrong. > > > > > > > > > > > > Pedantic is splitting hairs between the type of reward offered between a single roll of a slot machine vs a single opening of a BLC when clearly what matters are the statistics of what happens over time in terms of value in-value out. With a slot machine, you might get lucky and win big, or you may get nothing, but either way, the longer you play the more likely the odds swing out of your favor. It's the exact same with BLC - sure, you always get something, but what matters is overall value you get out vs the value you put in over time. > > > > > > > > If you spend money on 100 BLK and open 100 chests, you are more likely than not to **not** get a good return on your investment. But Anet isn't doling out real money, they are only receiving it, so there's no reason it should work that way. It would be better for players and for Anet to do what they can to make sure it's calibrated so that players have a slight edge in the returned value of buying BLK, rather than a handicap. > > > > > > > > Also, I love this whole argument of BLC being about the fantasy of what you might win as if that somehow differentiates it like it's not how all forms of gambling are marketed. > > > > > > It's not splitting hairs looking at 1 or 100 pulls or openings. In 100 pulls of a slot machine you could still get nothing. Many do. Odds are NOT in the player of a slot machine's favor. > > > > > > Also, reward value is subjective with BLC drops and it is constant with a slot machine. You always get money which has consistent value. > > > > > > The other thing you said that I actually laughed out loud at was "get a good return on your investment." Playing with BLC is in no way an investment. No even close. Anyone who buys keys in whatever way they purchase them knows what is in the BLC and that the possibility of getting any of the rare or super rare drops is minuscule. It is an investment like going to your local bakery, buying a bunch of their grab bags hoping you will get a bunch of fresh apple turnovers and getting all three day old plain doughnuts. > > > > > > If you don't want to get what you are likely to get out of the BLC, then don't buy the keys. How easy is that? Don't blame the company that sells the keys because you got exactly what you knew you might get. > > > > > @jheryn.8390 said: > > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > > > @jheryn.8390 said: > > > > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > > > > > @jheryn.8390 said: > > > > > > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > > > > > > > @jheryn.8390 said: > > > > > > > > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > > > > > > > > > > The thing that frustrates me about this is the idea that the "house edge" should apply to gambling in an MMO - it shouldn't, because unlike with real gambling - it's an additive system based on RNG, not a zero-sum game. Neither game developers nor players seem to realize this, and it leads to exploitation and a lot of salt. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In fact, **the players should have an edge with any video game-based gambling system, and should virtually always come out ahead in the long run**. If you open 100 BL chests, you should expect there to be a high likelihood that the stuff you end up with carries somewhat higher overall value than stuff you would have bought directly because you wanted it. Otherwise, you are being exploited. **They do not have BL chests tuned appropriately, and people need to scream about it until they change it or remove it altogether.** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If it were a gambling system, maybe. It's not. It's a tool for selling moments of entertainment for a nominal price. They aren't selling the loot; they are selling the excitement of wondering if you might win big. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, it is a gambling system, because you pay money for RNG rewards. The problem is that the longer you play it, the more likely you are to **not** get your money's worth out of it - which is by necessity how actual real world gambling works, but is the opposite of how this type of gambling system needs to work if they want to actually make money off of it without pissing off their players constantly. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Designing it like real-world gambling is blatant exploitation and not smart from a business perspective. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No it is not a gambling system. In gambling you wager something with the possibility of walking away with nothing. Gambling is also advertised as such. So you know you may (probably) will lose your money. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > With BLC you are not losing something as you will always get something of value. You may personally think what mostly drops from BLC are worthless, but that is opinion not truth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And as IWN mentioned, you are buying a digital fantasy, NOT a chance at real world monetary gain. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When you pay money - real or otherwise - into a system for RNG rewards (it could be nothing, it could be something of limited value, or it could be something of higher value than you put in) - that's gambling. Have you ever played a slot machine? This is basically identical to that, including the tuning of the reward quality. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This isn't complicated. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Agreed it is not that complicated. With a slot machine you get something or nothing. With BLC you ALWAYS get something. Always. You never have the possibility of getting nothing out of a BLC. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This isn't a slot machine. It is a grab bag. > > > > > > > > > > > > With a slot machine, you always get returns if you play for any length of time. The problem is that those returns diminish, and you are far more likely to lose value than you are to gain it through the process of playing. This is exactly what happens with BLC, and it's a problem because, unlike casinos hosting slot machines, Arenanet doesn't need to have an edge to profit from the system. > > > > > > > > > > > > It's par for the course for people to become pedantic when they know their argument is weak. > > > > > > > > > > It is nothing like a slot machine. You always get returns with a BLC. Your comparison is wrong. No matter how you want to try to spin it, they are not the same. > > > > > > > > > > You always get something from a BLC and you never know what exactly it will be but you always get something. > > > > > > > > > > You almost NEVER get anything from a Slot Machine and you always know what it will be if you do. Money. > > > > > > > > > > I will agree that "It's par for the course for people to become pedantic when they know their argument is weak. " But your argument isn't weak, it's just wrong. > > > > > > > > > > > > Pedantic is splitting hairs between the type of reward offered between a single roll of a slot machine vs a single opening of a BLC when clearly what matters are the statistics of what happens over time in terms of value in-value out. With a slot machine, you might get lucky and win big, or you may get nothing, but either way, the longer you play the more likely the odds swing out of your favor. It's the exact same with BLC - sure, you always get something, but what matters is overall value you get out vs the value you put in over time. > > > > > > > > If you spend money on 100 BLK and open 100 chests, you are more likely than not to **not** get a good return on your investment. But Anet isn't doling out real money, they are only receiving it, so there's no reason it should work that way. It would be better for players and for Anet to do what they can to make sure it's calibrated so that players have a slight edge in the returned value of buying BLK, rather than a handicap. > > > > > > > > Also, I love this whole argument of BLC being about the fantasy of what you might win as if that somehow differentiates it like it's not how all forms of gambling are marketed. > > > > > > It's not splitting hairs looking at 1 or 100 pulls or openings. In 100 pulls of a slot machine you could still get nothing. Many do. Odds are NOT in the player of a slot machine's favor. > > > > > It's technically possible, but highly unlikely. The odds are not in the player's favor that they will be ahead after 100 pulls, which is by design, because the casino wouldn't make a profit otherwise. The problem is that this design paradigm is carried into video game gambling systems, which is inappropriate. Anet makes a profit from BLK regardless of what people win or don't win out of them. In fact, making the rewards crappy is as harmful to Anet as it is to players. > > > Ya think? Although after 100 openings of a black lion chest you have at least 300 items of value. After a 100 pulls of a slot machine you more than likely are going to be much poorer than before you started playing. > > And profit is the goal for BLC keys. Why else would they sell them? And if you don't like the system, then why do you buy them and why are you arguing about it? > > And for the umpteenth time, it isn't gambling it is buying grab bags and therefore highly appropriate. > > > > Also, reward value is subjective with BLC drops and it is constant with a slot machine. You always get money which has consistent value. > > > > > > > > The other thing you said that I actually laughed out loud at was "get a good return on your investment." Playing with BLC is in no way an investment. No even close. Anyone who buys keys in whatever way they purchase them knows what is in the BLC and that the possibility of getting any of the rare or super rare drops is minuscule. It is an investment like going to your local bakery, buying a bunch of their grab bags hoping you will get a bunch of fresh apple turnovers and getting all three day old plain doughnuts. > > > > > Congratulations! You understand the problem now. > > > I always did understand how BLC work, I wish you did. Buying grab bags is not gambling. You are going to get something, even if it isn't something you want. Same with the BLC. That you don't understand that is baffling. There is no investment in buying grab bags and you only have yourself to blame when you do. It has nothing to do with gambling. And if you know that, then why do you keep arguing? You get something. It's not gambling. The end. http://www.dictionary.com/browse/gambling There are all kinds of other things that are off about this post, but it's not really worth continuing this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jheryn.8390 Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > http://www.dictionary.com/browse/gambling Both definitions are true. 1. the activity or practice of playing at a game of chance for money or other stakes. BLC are not a "game of chance". They are a grab bag. Also, when you purchase keys you are not pulling a lever or buying currency equivalents. You are buying an item. You cannot redeem them for anything other than opening a BLC. You cannot trade them with any other person, they are solely yours. You can keep them as they are or use them. You buy them to open a digital item you get in a game that has contents that all players are aware of that are randomly generated. You are guaranteed to get at least three things out of each these items. There is no risk of not getting anything. If you want to take a simple minded and literal interpretation of the #1 definition above. Playing GW or any game is gambling because loot is randomly generated. Driving your car to a place is gambling because you have no definitive guarantee of getting there safely. However, you keep equating BLC to monetary gambling which they are not. You never, not once, exchange currency for a chance at money, money equivalency or other stakes. You are buying digital items that you can use on other digital items. 2. the act or practice of risking the loss of something important by taking a chance or acting recklessly: Like buying BL keys when you think all you will get is junk out of another item. That's gambling. Or risking embarrassment trying to defend something you want to believe is something when it is not. That is gambling. And again, there is no risk of loss. Nice attempt, but no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einlanzer.1627 Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 > @jheryn.8390 said: > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > http://www.dictionary.com/browse/gambling > > Both definitions are true. > > 1. the activity or practice of playing at a game of chance for money or other stakes. > > BLC are not a "game of chance". They are a grab bag. Also, when you purchase keys you are not pulling a lever or buying currency equivalents. You are buying an item. You cannot redeem them for anything other than opening a BLC. You cannot trade them with any other person, they are solely yours. You can keep them as they are or use them. You buy them to open a digital item you get in a game that has contents that all players are aware of that are randomly generated. You are guaranteed to get at least three things out of each these items. There is no risk of not getting anything. > > If you want to take a simple minded and literal interpretation of the #1 definition above. Playing GW or any game is gambling because loot is randomly generated. Driving your car to a place is gambling because you have no definitive guarantee of getting there safely. > > However, you keep equating BLC to monetary gambling which they are not. You never, not once, exchange currency for a chance at money, money equivalency or other stakes. You are buying digital items that you can use on other digital items. > > 2. the act or practice of risking the loss of something important by taking a chance or acting recklessly: > > Like buying BL keys when you think all you will get is junk out of another item. That's gambling. Or risking embarrassment trying to defend something you want to believe is something when it is not. That is gambling. > > And again, there is no risk of loss. > > Nice attempt, but no. http://www.dictionary.com/browse/game-of-chance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_of_chance I mean, really, do you not realize how absurd your argument is getting? The BLC system is a game of chance, and it is also considered gambling because it involves an input of currency that is either real money or some equivalent digital currency. You're hung up on the idea of it not being gambling because you can't get nothing, but, not only is that a pedantic technicality that takes us away from the original discussion, it's also not even sufficient reasoning for something to not be considered gambling. If you set up a raffle with an entry fee and a guaranteed payout, but the size of the payout varied by some RNG-type system - would that not be gambling? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jheryn.8390 Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > @jheryn.8390 said: > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > > > http://www.dictionary.com/browse/gambling > > > > Both definitions are true. > > > > 1. the activity or practice of playing at a game of chance for money or other stakes. > > > > BLC are not a "game of chance". They are a grab bag. Also, when you purchase keys you are not pulling a lever or buying currency equivalents. You are buying an item. You cannot redeem them for anything other than opening a BLC. You cannot trade them with any other person, they are solely yours. You can keep them as they are or use them. You buy them to open a digital item you get in a game that has contents that all players are aware of that are randomly generated. You are guaranteed to get at least three things out of each these items. There is no risk of not getting anything. > > > > If you want to take a simple minded and literal interpretation of the #1 definition above. Playing GW or any game is gambling because loot is randomly generated. Driving your car to a place is gambling because you have no definitive guarantee of getting there safely. > > > > However, you keep equating BLC to monetary gambling which they are not. You never, not once, exchange currency for a chance at money, money equivalency or other stakes. You are buying digital items that you can use on other digital items. > > > > 2. the act or practice of risking the loss of something important by taking a chance or acting recklessly: > > > > Like buying BL keys when you think all you will get is junk out of another item. That's gambling. Or risking embarrassment trying to defend something you want to believe is something when it is not. That is gambling. > > > > And again, there is no risk of loss. > > > > Nice attempt, but no. > > http://www.dictionary.com/browse/game-of-chance > > I mean, really, do you not realize how absurd your argument is getting? The BLC system is a game of chance, and it is also considered gambling because it involves an input of currency that is either real money or some equivalent digital currency. > > You just keep on digging in deeper. LOL. It's funny, you haven't been able to refute anything I have said. You cannot prove that it is a game of chance, which it is not. Proof? Hint: Ya got none. The only thing that you can defend your position with is "I wanna be right, therefore I am." The only absurd thing is that you keep trying to defend yourself with the same ridiculous position. Give up while you are behind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einlanzer.1627 Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 > @jheryn.8390 said: > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > @jheryn.8390 said: > > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > > > > > http://www.dictionary.com/browse/gambling > > > > > > Both definitions are true. > > > > > > 1. the activity or practice of playing at a game of chance for money or other stakes. > > > > > > BLC are not a "game of chance". They are a grab bag. Also, when you purchase keys you are not pulling a lever or buying currency equivalents. You are buying an item. You cannot redeem them for anything other than opening a BLC. You cannot trade them with any other person, they are solely yours. You can keep them as they are or use them. You buy them to open a digital item you get in a game that has contents that all players are aware of that are randomly generated. You are guaranteed to get at least three things out of each these items. There is no risk of not getting anything. > > > > > > If you want to take a simple minded and literal interpretation of the #1 definition above. Playing GW or any game is gambling because loot is randomly generated. Driving your car to a place is gambling because you have no definitive guarantee of getting there safely. > > > > > > However, you keep equating BLC to monetary gambling which they are not. You never, not once, exchange currency for a chance at money, money equivalency or other stakes. You are buying digital items that you can use on other digital items. > > > > > > 2. the act or practice of risking the loss of something important by taking a chance or acting recklessly: > > > > > > Like buying BL keys when you think all you will get is junk out of another item. That's gambling. Or risking embarrassment trying to defend something you want to believe is something when it is not. That is gambling. > > > > > > And again, there is no risk of loss. > > > > > > Nice attempt, but no. > > > > http://www.dictionary.com/browse/game-of-chance > > > > I mean, really, do you not realize how absurd your argument is getting? The BLC system is a game of chance, and it is also considered gambling because it involves an input of currency that is either real money or some equivalent digital currency. > > > > You just keep on digging in deeper. > > LOL. It's funny, you haven't been able to refute anything I have said. > > You cannot prove that it is a game of chance, which it is not. Proof? Hint: Ya got none. > > The only thing that you can defend your position with is "I wanna be right, therefore I am." > > The only absurd thing is that you keep trying to defend yourself with the same ridiculous position. Give up while you are behind. I'm the only one that has refuted anything; you have done nothing but provide baseless arguments that contradict easy-to-confirm definitions of existing terms. This is one of the most ridiculous arguments I've ever had in my entire life.. I mean, let's take a look at this line: "You cannot prove that it is a game of chance, which it is not" lolwut? Pay money to get a key to open a chest with randomized loot is not a game of chance? Even if I were to concede that it wasn't gambling (it is), it would still be a game of chance. I'm like dying laughing as I type this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jheryn.8390 Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > @jheryn.8390 said: > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > > @jheryn.8390 said: > > > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > > > > > > > http://www.dictionary.com/browse/gambling > > > > > > > > Both definitions are true. > > > > > > > > 1. the activity or practice of playing at a game of chance for money or other stakes. > > > > > > > > BLC are not a "game of chance". They are a grab bag. Also, when you purchase keys you are not pulling a lever or buying currency equivalents. You are buying an item. You cannot redeem them for anything other than opening a BLC. You cannot trade them with any other person, they are solely yours. You can keep them as they are or use them. You buy them to open a digital item you get in a game that has contents that all players are aware of that are randomly generated. You are guaranteed to get at least three things out of each these items. There is no risk of not getting anything. > > > > > > > > If you want to take a simple minded and literal interpretation of the #1 definition above. Playing GW or any game is gambling because loot is randomly generated. Driving your car to a place is gambling because you have no definitive guarantee of getting there safely. > > > > > > > > However, you keep equating BLC to monetary gambling which they are not. You never, not once, exchange currency for a chance at money, money equivalency or other stakes. You are buying digital items that you can use on other digital items. > > > > > > > > 2. the act or practice of risking the loss of something important by taking a chance or acting recklessly: > > > > > > > > Like buying BL keys when you think all you will get is junk out of another item. That's gambling. Or risking embarrassment trying to defend something you want to believe is something when it is not. That is gambling. > > > > > > > > And again, there is no risk of loss. > > > > > > > > Nice attempt, but no. > > > > > > http://www.dictionary.com/browse/game-of-chance > > > > > > I mean, really, do you not realize how absurd your argument is getting? The BLC system is a game of chance, and it is also considered gambling because it involves an input of currency that is either real money or some equivalent digital currency. > > > > > > You just keep on digging in deeper. > > > > LOL. It's funny, you haven't been able to refute anything I have said. > > > > You cannot prove that it is a game of chance, which it is not. Proof? Hint: Ya got none. > > > > The only thing that you can defend your position with is "I wanna be right, therefore I am." > > > > The only absurd thing is that you keep trying to defend yourself with the same ridiculous position. Give up while you are behind. > > I'm the only one that has refuted anything; you have done nothing but provide baseless arguments that contradict easy-to-confirm definitions of existing terms. This is one of the most ridiculous arguments I've ever had in my entire life.. > > I mean, let's take a look at this line: > "You cannot prove that it is a game of chance, which it is not" > > lolwut? Pay money to get a key to open a chest with randomized loot is not a game of chance? Even if I were to concede that it wasn't gambling (it is), it would still be a game of chance. I'm like dying laughing as I type this. More of the same. As I just said. Where does it say that BLC is a "game of chance?" It isn't a game at all. It is an item. If it were truly gambling, GW would be have been shut down and Anet execs arrested. It's illegal for minors to gamble and illegal for organizations to offer opportunities to minors to gamble and I am pretty sure they have no license to offer gambling. You haven't refuted anything, you just keep saying "It's gambling, it's gambling, it's gambling, ad nasium. No refuting just repeating. It's tired. You can't actually defend your positions so all you do is say I am wrong. I'm not and since it is pretty obvious you don't understand, I'm going to quit trying because you can't argue with someone who thinks that they are right just because they want to be right. Keep believing what you want. It's crazy, but hey, you do you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bantern.7205 Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 > You haven't refuted anything, you just keep saying "It's gambling, it's gambling, it's gambling, ad nasium. No refuting just repeating. It's tired. You can't actually defend your positions so all you do is say I am wrong. I'm not and since it is pretty obvious you don't understand, I'm going to quit trying because you can't argue with someone who thinks that they are right just because they want to be right. Bruh. It's gambling. Plain and simple. I live in Vegas, and most casinos have rewards points that you earn by spending money gambling, whether it be at tables or machines, or other games like roulette or craps. The points can be spent on things like cheaper room rates at hotels, entertainment, meals, etc. Those points are technically something that you didn't have before, but are earned through gambling. Does that negate the fact that the entire process involves gambling in the first place? No, it is most definitely still gambling. It's the same with BLC/BLK. You buy the keys in hopes of getting a high value item, with the chance that you won't. There it is, chance. It's a game of chance. Just because you are guaranteed a mini that is worth roughly 1g does not make it not gambling, just like the points that casinos reward you with. > If it were truly gambling, GW would be have been shut down and Anet execs arrested. It's illegal for minors to gamble and illegal for organizations to offer opportunities to minors to gamble and I am pretty sure they have no license to offer gambling. There are legal loopholes that allow them to get away with having gambling in their game without calling it gambling. Here, let's take a loot at the GUILD WARS 2 USER AGREEMENT, found here: https://www.guildwars2.com/en/legal/guild-wars-2-user-agreement/ "Section 4(d)(vii) Except for people ordinarily resident in Germany, You acknowledge that Gems are digital material with no cash value, that no interest is paid or earned with respect to Gems, that Gems are not personal property, that the quantity of Gems in Your Account may be increased or decreased by ArenaNet in its reasonable discretion, that You have no right to a refund related to Gems, that there is no right to transfer or exchange Gems, and that ArenaNet may limit Your license to use Gems with respect to any Item, service, Content or time period related thereto. You further acknowledge that additional restrictions related to Gems, as determined in the reasonable discretion of ArenaNet, may be applicable if, and when, Gems are made available to You or thereafter. ArenaNet may restrict the award or use of Gems based on Your country of residence or other factors." If Gems aren't money, then what you spend them on isn't a purchased product. Therefore, by their own legal definition, spending money on BLK to open BLC wouldn't be considered gambling, because no money is involved. JUST BECAUSE IT'S LEGAL DOESN'T MEAN IT'S MORAL. It's still definitely gambling by common sense standards. Lol @ that sentence in the beginning of that clause about Germany. Guarantee you their consumer protection laws are why that is there. All of that said, I STILL spend a ton of money on keys and chests, because I have an addictive personality. Not ArenaNet's fault, although it would be cool if that character flaw wasn't so easily exploited. Side note: I used to work for a very large fruit-related tech company, and I've heard of people from the "digital market" department talking about people spending upwards of USD $30,000 a year on in-app purchases. I'm sure there are whales just as big in the Gem Store. So the reason they keep doing it this way is that it is viable and makes them TONS of money lol. Again, not ANet's fault, they're only working successfully within the legal framework laid in place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashantara.8731 Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said: > No, there was never a "somewhat realistic chance of getting a super rare drop". The little data we had shows similar (if not worse) rates. What changed was which things might drop. How is that statement different from what I said? Before the update last year, "certain things" had a higher chance of dropping than they have now. It's a fact, I used to open a lot of those chests. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inculpatus cedo.9234 Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 > @Ashantara.8731 said: > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said: > > No, there was never a "somewhat realistic chance of getting a super rare drop". The little data we had shows similar (if not worse) rates. What changed was which things might drop. > > How is that statement different from what I said? Before the update last year, "certain things" had a higher chance of dropping than they have now. It's a fact, I used to open a lot of those chests. S/He just said the data showed similar or worse drop rates before. How is that the same as "drop rates were better" before? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceridwen.6703 Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 I have a love/hate relationship with the chests. I think I love them, I know they mostly hate me. I used to like getting the boosts, I used them all the time. I don't like the change to the third slot being occupied by whatever's flavour of the month, but in the case of raptors or these Halloween pails, at least it's usually something I can make a gold or two off. Yes, I know that's really just a tiny fraction of however much is spent on the chest, but I don't always buy them, and when I do, I know they likely won't yield whatever it is I'm after. However, a while back I managed to receive the Candelabra staff, which is a fab thing and my precious. I also just got a Hydra staff, which won't replace my Candelabra staff, so I'd love to sell it or even just give it to someone who doesn't feel the squick when looking at it - except I can't, because it's account bound. It must now sit in my bank because I can't throw skins away! Would love for Anet to allow even just gifting of these things. Point is, if you're not getting what you want out of the chests, but still want the keys to open the things all the same, don't spend cash on them. Keep a character slot spare, and once a week level a character from 0-40, doing simple map completion and story. Each map completion gives a chance at a key, and you get a key in the story at level 10, and then at level 40. Easy, job done (happens again at level 60, but YMMV if you want to level that much). Resets every week, and takes maybe a hour or so every day in the week, less or more depending on how you play and what. Harvest craftables and get low tier stuff from story. That way at least you're making other gains whilst you gamble and not using your cash on this stuff. Then just use your real world (or in-game) cash on buying other items in the gem store. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abraxxus.8971 Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 I only buy one key a week just to see what I get. I've gotten a few good items, but yeah most of it turns out to be stuff I never use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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