Ashen.2907 Posted October 27, 2017 Share Posted October 27, 2017 > @jheryn.8390 said: > > @Ashen.2907 said: > > > @jheryn.8390 said: > > > > @PopeUrban.2578 said:A _very_ small portion of gems that enter that economy are actually generated by playing the game. > > > > > > Source? > > > > > Look at the achievement tab of your hero panel. > > > > > > Honestly, I was also including the number of gems purchased by using gold to convert to gems. That is also gems through game play as it is not using real world money to buy them. Yeah, but those gems are coming from other players who bought them with real money. The gem awards from certain AP tiers do not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PopeUrban.2578 Posted October 27, 2017 Share Posted October 27, 2017 > @jheryn.8390 said: > > @Ashen.2907 said: > > > @jheryn.8390 said: > > > > @PopeUrban.2578 said:A _very_ small portion of gems that enter that economy are actually generated by playing the game. > > > > > > Source? > > > > > Look at the achievement tab of your hero panel. > > > > > > Honestly, I was also including the number of gems purchased by using gold to convert to gems. That is also gems through game play as it is not using real world money to buy them. False. Those gems enter the exchange because they were purchased by another player. Anet generated gems specifically for the gem/gold exchange once, at the launch of the game. They've been very clear about how that system works. Those gems are generated by actual money transactions. When you exchange gold for gems you are buying gems at a fluctuating market price based upon how much gold and how many gems are in the exchange, which is why the exchange rate fluctuates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jheryn.8390 Posted October 27, 2017 Share Posted October 27, 2017 > @PopeUrban.2578 said: > The difference is that in a casino they don't use currency obfuscation and clever language in advertising to obscure the fact that you are gambling. They actually call it gambling and go out of their way to market it as such, in real dollars, with legally mandated real value reward payouts. This is wrong. You are not gambling. Gambling has the possibility/probability of winning nothing. You get something for each key you use. You may not like what you get, but you do get a return for each key. > @PopeUrban.2578 said: > In the case of loot boxes for pretty much every video game, you are recieving nothing of value. You are gambling actual money with a 0% chance of winning anything. The EULA for virtually every game is very clear about this. You do not own your account, and you do not own the digital items it contains. You are paying for a license to use them that can be revoked at will by the owner. It is this specific language that is used in legal defense of this practice, specifically to avoid being legally defined as gambling and subject to the same legal oversight. That it can't be gambling if the user isn't actually receiving anything of value. It is this lack of oversight that allows complete obfuscation of actual odds of winning, and allows advertising things like the "new contents of the black lion chest" without ever once stating what the actual odds of winning are, or what the cash value of those items (which is zero dollars) actually is. Again, this is wrong. You are getting something of value. You and only you have the licensed right to play with your account. Even Anet will not use the items/gold/characters/etc. on your account. Revocation has nothing to do with anything other than you can lose your license for violating rules. And you most certainly are receiving something of value. You are paying for entertainment and enjoyment. Many cases involving the loss of entertainment and enjoyment have been awarded monetary compensation in the real world. Vacations are often the source but there have been cases where loss of cable/internet services due to the fault of the provider where the customer was expected to pay for services they did not receive are also documented. So to say you receive nothing of value is false. > @PopeUrban.2578 said: > So yes. yes it is an unethical business practice. It intentionally obfuscates not only the amount of money users spend to gamble, but intentionally benefits from an industry wide trend to avoid being subject to the same legal oversight as other forms of gambling while advertising to a demographic that mixes both adults and minors. You can keep using the word "obfuscates" over and over, but nothing is blurred or unclear. X amount of Gems for X amount of Keys. X amount of in game gold or real world money for X amount of gems. As far as value of chest items, that is subjective for everyone. Everyone including the company that produces these items are going to value each thing differently. That is not obfuscation that is subjectivity. There is nothing unethical about any of this. >@PopeUrban.2578 said: > No one is FORCING anyone to buy alcohol either, but it'd be a stretch to say putting it next to the light saber toys in your local wal-mart with the same fun packaging would be an ethical business practice. This is comparing apples to car engines. They are in no way the same thing. tl/dr: There is nothing unethical about buying gems and using black lion keys no matter how someone tries to justify it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jheryn.8390 Posted October 27, 2017 Share Posted October 27, 2017 > @PopeUrban.2578 said: > > @jheryn.8390 said: > > > @Ashen.2907 said: > > > > @jheryn.8390 said: > > > > > @PopeUrban.2578 said:A _very_ small portion of gems that enter that economy are actually generated by playing the game. > > > > > > > > Source? > > > > > > > Look at the achievement tab of your hero panel. > > > > > > > > > > Honestly, I was also including the number of gems purchased by using gold to convert to gems. That is also gems through game play as it is not using real world money to buy them. > > False. Those gems enter the exchange because they were purchased by another player. Anet generated gems specifically for the gem/gold exchange once, at the launch of the game. They've been very clear about how that system works. Those gems are generated by actual money transactions. When you exchange gold for gems you are buying gems at a fluctuating market price based upon how much gold and how many gems are in the exchange, which is why the exchange rate fluctuates. Not false. You earn gold in game. You convert that gold to gems. You buy things from the gem store. Those gems purchased this way are NOT generated from real world money even if their exchange rate is based upon real world transactions. Gems obtained this way are from in game play and never once is your credit card a part of that transaction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jheryn.8390 Posted October 27, 2017 Share Posted October 27, 2017 > @Ashen.2907 said: > > @jheryn.8390 said: > > > @Ashen.2907 said: > > > > @jheryn.8390 said: > > > > > @PopeUrban.2578 said:A _very_ small portion of gems that enter that economy are actually generated by playing the game. > > > > > > > > Source? > > > > > > > Look at the achievement tab of your hero panel. > > > > > > > > > > Honestly, I was also including the number of gems purchased by using gold to convert to gems. That is also gems through game play as it is not using real world money to buy them. > > Yeah, but those gems are coming from other players who bought them with real money. The gem awards from certain AP tiers do not. No they are not. You can most certainly use in game gold you have earned and exchange them for gems. You are getting those gems from game play when you obtain them this way. The quote above states that a very small portion of gems that enter that economy are actually generated by playing the game. It says nothing about just from AP awards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashen.2907 Posted October 27, 2017 Share Posted October 27, 2017 > @jheryn.8390 said: > > @PopeUrban.2578 said: > > The difference is that in a casino they don't use currency obfuscation and clever language in advertising to obscure the fact that you are gambling. They actually call it gambling and go out of their way to market it as such, in real dollars, with legally mandated real value reward payouts. > > This is wrong. You are not gambling. Gambling has the possibility/probability of winning nothing. You get something for each key you use. You may not like what you get, but you do get a return for each key. > > > @PopeUrban.2578 said: > > In the case of loot boxes for pretty much every video game, you are recieving nothing of value. You are gambling actual money with a 0% chance of winning anything. The EULA for virtually every game is very clear about this. You do not own your account, and you do not own the digital items it contains. You are paying for a license to use them that can be revoked at will by the owner. It is this specific language that is used in legal defense of this practice, specifically to avoid being legally defined as gambling and subject to the same legal oversight. That it can't be gambling if the user isn't actually receiving anything of value. It is this lack of oversight that allows complete obfuscation of actual odds of winning, and allows advertising things like the "new contents of the black lion chest" without ever once stating what the actual odds of winning are, or what the cash value of those items (which is zero dollars) actually is. > > Again, this is wrong. You are getting something of value. You and only you have the licensed right to play with your account. Even Anet will not use the items/gold/characters/etc. on your account. Revocation has nothing to do with anything other than you can lose your license for violating rules. And you most certainly are receiving something of value. You are paying for entertainment and enjoyment. Many cases involving the loss of entertainment and enjoyment have been awarded monetary compensation in the real world. Vacations are often the source but there have been cases where loss of cable/internet services due to the fault of the provider where the customer was expected to pay for services they did not receive are also documented. So to say you receive nothing of value is false. > > > @PopeUrban.2578 said: > > So yes. yes it is an unethical business practice. It intentionally obfuscates not only the amount of money users spend to gamble, but intentionally benefits from an industry wide trend to avoid being subject to the same legal oversight as other forms of gambling while advertising to a demographic that mixes both adults and minors. > > You can keep using the word "obfuscates" over and over, but nothing is blurred or unclear. X amount of Gems for X amount of Keys. X amount of in game gold or real world money for X amount of gems. As far as value of chest items, that is subjective for everyone. Everyone including the company that produces these items are going to value each thing differently. That is not obfuscation that is subjectivity. There is nothing unethical about any of this. > > >@PopeUrban.2578 said: > > No one is FORCING anyone to buy alcohol either, but it'd be a stretch to say putting it next to the light saber toys in your local wal-mart with the same fun packaging would be an ethical business practice. > > This is comparing apples to car engines. They are in no way the same thing. > > tl/dr: There is nothing unethical about buying gems and using black lion keys no matter how someone tries to justify it. > So if casinos gave a gold star sticker with each pull of the lever on a $20 slot machine it would no longer be gambling? The lotto, then, is not gambling because you get a shiney piece of paper. For some peopple the consolation prizes in the blc may be worth the price of a key. For others, each purchase of a key is a gamble for something of value to them, while those consolation prizes are essentially trash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashen.2907 Posted October 27, 2017 Share Posted October 27, 2017 > @jheryn.8390 said: > > @PopeUrban.2578 said: > > > @jheryn.8390 said: > > > > @Ashen.2907 said: > > > > > @jheryn.8390 said: > > > > > > @PopeUrban.2578 said:A _very_ small portion of gems that enter that economy are actually generated by playing the game. > > > > > > > > > > Source? > > > > > > > > > Look at the achievement tab of your hero panel. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Honestly, I was also including the number of gems purchased by using gold to convert to gems. That is also gems through game play as it is not using real world money to buy them. > > > > False. Those gems enter the exchange because they were purchased by another player. Anet generated gems specifically for the gem/gold exchange once, at the launch of the game. They've been very clear about how that system works. Those gems are generated by actual money transactions. When you exchange gold for gems you are buying gems at a fluctuating market price based upon how much gold and how many gems are in the exchange, which is why the exchange rate fluctuates. > > Not false. You earn gold in game. You convert that gold to gems. You buy things from the gem store. Those gems purchased this way are NOT generated from real world money even if their exchange rate is based upon real world transactions. Gems obtained this way are from in game play and never once is your credit card a part of that transaction. Those gems ARE generated from real world money, just not YOUR real world money (in this example). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BunjiKugashira.9754 Posted October 27, 2017 Share Posted October 27, 2017 > @jheryn.8390 said: > > @PopeUrban.2578 said: > > > @jheryn.8390 said: > > > > @Ashen.2907 said: > > > > > @jheryn.8390 said: > > > > > > @PopeUrban.2578 said:A _very_ small portion of gems that enter that economy are actually generated by playing the game. > > > > > > > > > > Source? > > > > > > > > > Look at the achievement tab of your hero panel. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Honestly, I was also including the number of gems purchased by using gold to convert to gems. That is also gems through game play as it is not using real world money to buy them. > > > > False. Those gems enter the exchange because they were purchased by another player. Anet generated gems specifically for the gem/gold exchange once, at the launch of the game. They've been very clear about how that system works. Those gems are generated by actual money transactions. When you exchange gold for gems you are buying gems at a fluctuating market price based upon how much gold and how many gems are in the exchange, which is why the exchange rate fluctuates. > > Not false. You earn gold in game. You convert that gold to gems. You buy things from the gem store. Those gems purchased this way are NOT generated from real world money even if their exchange rate is based upon real world transactions. Gems obtained this way are from in game play and never once is your credit card a part of that transaction. Still false. Those gems are not generated from thin air when you buy them from the gem exchange. They are drawn from a limited amount of gems that ANet only filled ONCE when the game was initially released. That limited source would be long depleted by now. So why are there still gems that we can buy for gold? Because gems that are being sold for gold are added to that source. It's true that YOU never used your credit card for those gems. But SOMEONE did pay real cash for those gems and traded them in for gold. Every single gem in this game has it's origin either in a real-cash purchase, an achievement box or is part of the initial gem-pool from 2012. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jheryn.8390 Posted October 27, 2017 Share Posted October 27, 2017 > @Ashen.2907 said: > > @jheryn.8390 said: > > > @PopeUrban.2578 said: > > > The difference is that in a casino they don't use currency obfuscation and clever language in advertising to obscure the fact that you are gambling. They actually call it gambling and go out of their way to market it as such, in real dollars, with legally mandated real value reward payouts. > > > > This is wrong. You are not gambling. Gambling has the possibility/probability of winning nothing. You get something for each key you use. You may not like what you get, but you do get a return for each key. > > > > > @PopeUrban.2578 said: > > > In the case of loot boxes for pretty much every video game, you are recieving nothing of value. You are gambling actual money with a 0% chance of winning anything. The EULA for virtually every game is very clear about this. You do not own your account, and you do not own the digital items it contains. You are paying for a license to use them that can be revoked at will by the owner. It is this specific language that is used in legal defense of this practice, specifically to avoid being legally defined as gambling and subject to the same legal oversight. That it can't be gambling if the user isn't actually receiving anything of value. It is this lack of oversight that allows complete obfuscation of actual odds of winning, and allows advertising things like the "new contents of the black lion chest" without ever once stating what the actual odds of winning are, or what the cash value of those items (which is zero dollars) actually is. > > > > Again, this is wrong. You are getting something of value. You and only you have the licensed right to play with your account. Even Anet will not use the items/gold/characters/etc. on your account. Revocation has nothing to do with anything other than you can lose your license for violating rules. And you most certainly are receiving something of value. You are paying for entertainment and enjoyment. Many cases involving the loss of entertainment and enjoyment have been awarded monetary compensation in the real world. Vacations are often the source but there have been cases where loss of cable/internet services due to the fault of the provider where the customer was expected to pay for services they did not receive are also documented. So to say you receive nothing of value is false. > > > > > @PopeUrban.2578 said: > > > So yes. yes it is an unethical business practice. It intentionally obfuscates not only the amount of money users spend to gamble, but intentionally benefits from an industry wide trend to avoid being subject to the same legal oversight as other forms of gambling while advertising to a demographic that mixes both adults and minors. > > > > You can keep using the word "obfuscates" over and over, but nothing is blurred or unclear. X amount of Gems for X amount of Keys. X amount of in game gold or real world money for X amount of gems. As far as value of chest items, that is subjective for everyone. Everyone including the company that produces these items are going to value each thing differently. That is not obfuscation that is subjectivity. There is nothing unethical about any of this. > > > > >@PopeUrban.2578 said: > > > No one is FORCING anyone to buy alcohol either, but it'd be a stretch to say putting it next to the light saber toys in your local wal-mart with the same fun packaging would be an ethical business practice. > > > > This is comparing apples to car engines. They are in no way the same thing. > > > > tl/dr: There is nothing unethical about buying gems and using black lion keys no matter how someone tries to justify it. > > > > So if casinos gave a gold star sticker with each pull of the lever on a $20 slot machine it would no longer be gambling? > > The lotto, then, is not gambling because you get a shiney piece of paper. > > For some peopple the consolation prizes in the blc may be worth the price of a key. For others, each purchase of a key is a gamble for something of value to them, while those consolation prizes are essentially trash. They may be trash to you, but not to everyone. They can be used in game. They have value to the game. They all serve a purpose to which you play. And since I didn't feel it was necessary to explain, your shiny paper and gold star example is hyperbole. You are not gambling when you purchase keys. You are purchasing a digital item that is used on another digital item. The keys you buy is not gambling. When you use those keys to open another in game item, it is not gambling. It is buying a digital grab bag. You get whatever is in the grab bag whether you like it or not. You don't get to choose what is in the grab bag. You do not get to look in the grab bag to see if you want what is inside. You have no right to know the possibility of what is in the grab bag. You DO get to know what could be in a grab bag with no guarantee that any certain item is in the grab bag. When you gamble at a casino, you use real world cash. That cash can be used for other things than gambling. To avoid the inevitable argument, if you buy chips to play with, those chips can be redeemed for cash. Keys you purchase CANNOT be redeemed for cash. You know exactly what you are getting when you purchase keys. You do not know what you will get when you are gambling. BL Keys are in no way, shape or form gambling. Opening chests are in no way shape or form, gambling. 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jheryn.8390 Posted October 27, 2017 Share Posted October 27, 2017 > @BunjiKugashira.9754 said: > > @jheryn.8390 said: > > > @PopeUrban.2578 said: > > > > @jheryn.8390 said: > > > > > @Ashen.2907 said: > > > > > > @jheryn.8390 said: > > > > > > > @PopeUrban.2578 said:A _very_ small portion of gems that enter that economy are actually generated by playing the game. > > > > > > > > > > > > Source? > > > > > > > > > > > Look at the achievement tab of your hero panel. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Honestly, I was also including the number of gems purchased by using gold to convert to gems. That is also gems through game play as it is not using real world money to buy them. > > > > > > False. Those gems enter the exchange because they were purchased by another player. Anet generated gems specifically for the gem/gold exchange once, at the launch of the game. They've been very clear about how that system works. Those gems are generated by actual money transactions. When you exchange gold for gems you are buying gems at a fluctuating market price based upon how much gold and how many gems are in the exchange, which is why the exchange rate fluctuates. > > > > Not false. You earn gold in game. You convert that gold to gems. You buy things from the gem store. Those gems purchased this way are NOT generated from real world money even if their exchange rate is based upon real world transactions. Gems obtained this way are from in game play and never once is your credit card a part of that transaction. > > Still false. Those gems are not generated from thin air when you buy them from the gem exchange. They are drawn from a limited amount of gems that ANet only filled ONCE when the game was initially released. That limited source would be long depleted by now. So why are there still gems that we can buy for gold? Because gems that are being sold for gold are added to that source. > > It's true that YOU never used your credit card for those gems. But SOMEONE did pay real cash for those gems and traded them in for gold. Every single gem in this game has it's origin either in a real-cash purchase, an achievement box or is part of the initial gem-pool from 2012. Nope. Still incorrect. Someone may have initially purchased gems with RW cash, but those same gems value was used in the purchase of gold. Those spent gems are put into a pool after their RW value has been expended. When anyone buys gems with gold they are buying from a pool of completely devalued digital items (previously purchased gems) in exchange for other digital items (gold). No matter how you look at it, any player exchanging gold for gems is in no way spending RW cash for them. At this point it is just game play. The end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moonstarmac.4603 Posted October 27, 2017 Share Posted October 27, 2017 I will say the current item, the Evon Gnashblade Trick or Treat Bag, is not too bad. It gives the chance at items that sell for flat gold, plus the rarer ToT bag drops as well. I wouldn't mind seeing the drops changed to 1 guaranteed item + 3 random items + rare chance at a 4th drop. My personal opinion is by making the guaranteed seasonal item separate from the 3 drop slots more people will take the chance with BLCs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashen.2907 Posted October 27, 2017 Share Posted October 27, 2017 > @jheryn.8390 said: > > @Ashen.2907 said: > > > @jheryn.8390 said: > > > > @PopeUrban.2578 said: > > > > The difference is that in a casino they don't use currency obfuscation and clever language in advertising to obscure the fact that you are gambling. They actually call it gambling and go out of their way to market it as such, in real dollars, with legally mandated real value reward payouts. > > > > > > This is wrong. You are not gambling. Gambling has the possibility/probability of winning nothing. You get something for each key you use. You may not like what you get, but you do get a return for each key. > > > > > > > @PopeUrban.2578 said: > > > > In the case of loot boxes for pretty much every video game, you are recieving nothing of value. You are gambling actual money with a 0% chance of winning anything. The EULA for virtually every game is very clear about this. You do not own your account, and you do not own the digital items it contains. You are paying for a license to use them that can be revoked at will by the owner. It is this specific language that is used in legal defense of this practice, specifically to avoid being legally defined as gambling and subject to the same legal oversight. That it can't be gambling if the user isn't actually receiving anything of value. It is this lack of oversight that allows complete obfuscation of actual odds of winning, and allows advertising things like the "new contents of the black lion chest" without ever once stating what the actual odds of winning are, or what the cash value of those items (which is zero dollars) actually is. > > > > > > Again, this is wrong. You are getting something of value. You and only you have the licensed right to play with your account. Even Anet will not use the items/gold/characters/etc. on your account. Revocation has nothing to do with anything other than you can lose your license for violating rules. And you most certainly are receiving something of value. You are paying for entertainment and enjoyment. Many cases involving the loss of entertainment and enjoyment have been awarded monetary compensation in the real world. Vacations are often the source but there have been cases where loss of cable/internet services due to the fault of the provider where the customer was expected to pay for services they did not receive are also documented. So to say you receive nothing of value is false. > > > > > > > @PopeUrban.2578 said: > > > > So yes. yes it is an unethical business practice. It intentionally obfuscates not only the amount of money users spend to gamble, but intentionally benefits from an industry wide trend to avoid being subject to the same legal oversight as other forms of gambling while advertising to a demographic that mixes both adults and minors. > > > > > > You can keep using the word "obfuscates" over and over, but nothing is blurred or unclear. X amount of Gems for X amount of Keys. X amount of in game gold or real world money for X amount of gems. As far as value of chest items, that is subjective for everyone. Everyone including the company that produces these items are going to value each thing differently. That is not obfuscation that is subjectivity. There is nothing unethical about any of this. > > > > > > >@PopeUrban.2578 said: > > > > No one is FORCING anyone to buy alcohol either, but it'd be a stretch to say putting it next to the light saber toys in your local wal-mart with the same fun packaging would be an ethical business practice. > > > > > > This is comparing apples to car engines. They are in no way the same thing. > > > > > > tl/dr: There is nothing unethical about buying gems and using black lion keys no matter how someone tries to justify it. > > > > > > > So if casinos gave a gold star sticker with each pull of the lever on a $20 slot machine it would no longer be gambling? > > > > The lotto, then, is not gambling because you get a shiney piece of paper. > > > > For some peopple the consolation prizes in the blc may be worth the price of a key. For others, each purchase of a key is a gamble for something of value to them, while those consolation prizes are essentially trash. > > They may be trash to you, but not to everyone. They can be used in game. They have value to the game. They all serve a purpose to which you play. > > And since I didn't feel it was necessary to explain, your shiny paper and gold star example is hyperbole. You are not gambling when you purchase keys. You are purchasing a digital item that is used on another digital item. The keys you buy is not gambling. When you use those keys to open another in game item, it is not gambling. It is buying a digital grab bag. You get whatever is in the grab bag whether you like it or not. You don't get to choose what is in the grab bag. You do not get to look in the grab bag to see if you want what is inside. You have no right to know the possibility of what is in the grab bag. You DO get to know what could be in a grab bag with no guarantee that any certain item is in the grab bag. > > When you gamble at a casino, you use real world cash. That cash can be used for other things than gambling. To avoid the inevitable argument, if you buy chips to play with, those chips can be redeemed for cash. Keys you purchase CANNOT be redeemed for cash. You know exactly what you are getting when you purchase keys. You do not know what you will get when you are gambling. > > BL Keys are in no way, shape or form gambling. Opening chests are in no way shape or form, gambling. The chips, and pieces of paper, have value to some. Those pieces of paper cannot be redeemed for cash, but are purchased with real world money. When one buys a key, one is doing so not for the act of possessing the key, but rather for the chance to possibly get something else as determined by chance. Just as one generally would not buy a raffle ticket or a llottery ticket for the sake of owning the ticket. One is purchasing it for what it represents, the opportunity to participate in a gamble for something of value. And I specifically said that the consolation prizes were of value to some and not to others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nekretaal.6485 Posted October 27, 2017 Share Posted October 27, 2017 The Evon Gnashblade trick or treat bag is pretty good. It drops trash items worth a lot of gold. The value of the bag is quite high, and then it gives you a chance at the rare Halloween drops. It's better than a booster for sure, even if it probably isn't worth the current (speculator inflated) price of green raptors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biff.5312 Posted October 27, 2017 Share Posted October 27, 2017 .> @"Ben K.6238" said: > Black Lion keys are almost the dud reward from map completion. > > Nearly all of my keys come from story chapters or map completion, or occasionally a free key on the gem store. I do not ever pay for them, and every time I use one that's dropped for me, it reminds me of why not. I have very rarely found useful items in those chests - over 90% of them contain nothing of value. > > When even the free keys leave you feeling ripped off, why would you ever pay for them? That's wise. For new players, because of the rarity of the keys, it's easy to be fooled into thinking the treasure available must be exciting stuff. It's junk. They shouldn't count on fooling people to make money. A player shouldn't have to learn the lesson of NOT trying to win anything this way. You can say that players should educate themselves about possible rewards, but really they shouldn't have to beware of ripoffs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jheryn.8390 Posted October 27, 2017 Share Posted October 27, 2017 > @Ashen.2907 said: > > @jheryn.8390 said: > > > @Ashen.2907 said: > > > > @jheryn.8390 said: > > > > > @PopeUrban.2578 said: > > > > > The difference is that in a casino they don't use currency obfuscation and clever language in advertising to obscure the fact that you are gambling. They actually call it gambling and go out of their way to market it as such, in real dollars, with legally mandated real value reward payouts. > > > > > > > > This is wrong. You are not gambling. Gambling has the possibility/probability of winning nothing. You get something for each key you use. You may not like what you get, but you do get a return for each key. > > > > > > > > > @PopeUrban.2578 said: > > > > > In the case of loot boxes for pretty much every video game, you are recieving nothing of value. You are gambling actual money with a 0% chance of winning anything. The EULA for virtually every game is very clear about this. You do not own your account, and you do not own the digital items it contains. You are paying for a license to use them that can be revoked at will by the owner. It is this specific language that is used in legal defense of this practice, specifically to avoid being legally defined as gambling and subject to the same legal oversight. That it can't be gambling if the user isn't actually receiving anything of value. It is this lack of oversight that allows complete obfuscation of actual odds of winning, and allows advertising things like the "new contents of the black lion chest" without ever once stating what the actual odds of winning are, or what the cash value of those items (which is zero dollars) actually is. > > > > > > > > Again, this is wrong. You are getting something of value. You and only you have the licensed right to play with your account. Even Anet will not use the items/gold/characters/etc. on your account. Revocation has nothing to do with anything other than you can lose your license for violating rules. And you most certainly are receiving something of value. You are paying for entertainment and enjoyment. Many cases involving the loss of entertainment and enjoyment have been awarded monetary compensation in the real world. Vacations are often the source but there have been cases where loss of cable/internet services due to the fault of the provider where the customer was expected to pay for services they did not receive are also documented. So to say you receive nothing of value is false. > > > > > > > > > @PopeUrban.2578 said: > > > > > So yes. yes it is an unethical business practice. It intentionally obfuscates not only the amount of money users spend to gamble, but intentionally benefits from an industry wide trend to avoid being subject to the same legal oversight as other forms of gambling while advertising to a demographic that mixes both adults and minors. > > > > > > > > You can keep using the word "obfuscates" over and over, but nothing is blurred or unclear. X amount of Gems for X amount of Keys. X amount of in game gold or real world money for X amount of gems. As far as value of chest items, that is subjective for everyone. Everyone including the company that produces these items are going to value each thing differently. That is not obfuscation that is subjectivity. There is nothing unethical about any of this. > > > > > > > > >@PopeUrban.2578 said: > > > > > No one is FORCING anyone to buy alcohol either, but it'd be a stretch to say putting it next to the light saber toys in your local wal-mart with the same fun packaging would be an ethical business practice. > > > > > > > > This is comparing apples to car engines. They are in no way the same thing. > > > > > > > > tl/dr: There is nothing unethical about buying gems and using black lion keys no matter how someone tries to justify it. > > > > > > > > > > So if casinos gave a gold star sticker with each pull of the lever on a $20 slot machine it would no longer be gambling? > > > > > > The lotto, then, is not gambling because you get a shiney piece of paper. > > > > > > For some peopple the consolation prizes in the blc may be worth the price of a key. For others, each purchase of a key is a gamble for something of value to them, while those consolation prizes are essentially trash. > > > > They may be trash to you, but not to everyone. They can be used in game. They have value to the game. They all serve a purpose to which you play. > > > > And since I didn't feel it was necessary to explain, your shiny paper and gold star example is hyperbole. You are not gambling when you purchase keys. You are purchasing a digital item that is used on another digital item. The keys you buy is not gambling. When you use those keys to open another in game item, it is not gambling. It is buying a digital grab bag. You get whatever is in the grab bag whether you like it or not. You don't get to choose what is in the grab bag. You do not get to look in the grab bag to see if you want what is inside. You have no right to know the possibility of what is in the grab bag. You DO get to know what could be in a grab bag with no guarantee that any certain item is in the grab bag. > > > > When you gamble at a casino, you use real world cash. That cash can be used for other things than gambling. To avoid the inevitable argument, if you buy chips to play with, those chips can be redeemed for cash. Keys you purchase CANNOT be redeemed for cash. You know exactly what you are getting when you purchase keys. You do not know what you will get when you are gambling. > > > > BL Keys are in no way, shape or form gambling. Opening chests are in no way shape or form, gambling. > > The chips, and pieces of paper, have value to some. Those pieces of paper cannot be redeemed for cash, but are purchased with real world money. > > When one buys a key, one is doing so not for the act of possessing the key, but rather for the chance to possibly get something else as determined by chance. Just as one generally would not buy a raffle ticket or a llottery ticket for the sake of owning the ticket. One is purchasing it for what it represents, the opportunity to participate in a gamble for something of value. > > And I specifically said that the consolation prizes were of value to some and not to others. It doesn't matter about the stars and paper having value. Slots, etc. ARE gambling and are advertised as such. Also, truth is that they DON'T give money and no one would play them if they did. It does not matter WHY you are buying the key. Purchasing and item is what you are buying. You can purchase a car, but maybe your intention is to use it as a planter for your yard. No one cares why you purchase an item. Intent for use matters not. And again, the lottery ticket is NOT what you are purchasing. They are receipts for your gambling chance. Also, the lottery is gambling, so again your paper example is still wrong. Again, it doesn't matter why you are buying keys, you are purchasing keys. You can hold on to them forever without using them. Your lottery purchases are for one certain chance on one certain day. Done. I've purchased keys when they have gone on sale and saved them for long periods of time until something I wanted or guaranteed drops were something I want. And again, you are actually purchasing what is in the chest just like a grab bag. You don't know what is inside you are still getting something guaranteed in the bag because it is NOT gambling. I see where you said that about the "consolation prizes" which is also a misnomer, it was another person that called them trash. Sorry about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just a flesh wound.3589 Posted October 27, 2017 Share Posted October 27, 2017 > @jheryn.8390 said: > > @BunjiKugashira.9754 said: > > > @jheryn.8390 said: > > > > @PopeUrban.2578 said: > > > > > @jheryn.8390 said: > > > > > > @Ashen.2907 said: > > > > > > > @jheryn.8390 said: > > > > > > > > @PopeUrban.2578 said:A _very_ small portion of gems that enter that economy are actually generated by playing the game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Source? > > > > > > > > > > > > > Look at the achievement tab of your hero panel. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Honestly, I was also including the number of gems purchased by using gold to convert to gems. That is also gems through game play as it is not using real world money to buy them. > > > > > > > > False. Those gems enter the exchange because they were purchased by another player. Anet generated gems specifically for the gem/gold exchange once, at the launch of the game. They've been very clear about how that system works. Those gems are generated by actual money transactions. When you exchange gold for gems you are buying gems at a fluctuating market price based upon how much gold and how many gems are in the exchange, which is why the exchange rate fluctuates. > > > > > > Not false. You earn gold in game. You convert that gold to gems. You buy things from the gem store. Those gems purchased this way are NOT generated from real world money even if their exchange rate is based upon real world transactions. Gems obtained this way are from in game play and never once is your credit card a part of that transaction. > > > > Still false. Those gems are not generated from thin air when you buy them from the gem exchange. They are drawn from a limited amount of gems that ANet only filled ONCE when the game was initially released. That limited source would be long depleted by now. So why are there still gems that we can buy for gold? Because gems that are being sold for gold are added to that source. > > > > It's true that YOU never used your credit card for those gems. But SOMEONE did pay real cash for those gems and traded them in for gold. Every single gem in this game has it's origin either in a real-cash purchase, an achievement box or is part of the initial gem-pool from 2012. > > Nope. Still incorrect. Someone may have initially purchased gems with RW cash, but those same gems value was used in the purchase of gold. Those spent gems are put into a pool after their RW value has been expended. When anyone buys gems with gold they are buying from a pool of completely devalued digital items (previously purchased gems) in exchange for other digital items (gold). No matter how you look at it, any player exchanging gold for gems is in no way spending RW cash for them. At this point it is just game play. The end. The person exchanging gold for gems isn’t, but the gems that s/he is buying were originally bought with real money. There is a gem pool and a gold pool. People buy gems with real money, put the gems in the gem pool and pull out gold. In reverse, people put gold in the gold pool and pull gems from the gem pool (gems that were placed there by people who bought them with real money). The players are buying and selling gold/gems to each other but it’s indirect, through putting gold/gems in a pool and then the computer checks the ratio to calculate the current gold<->gem price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jheryn.8390 Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 > @"Just a flesh wound.3589" said: > The person exchanging gold for gems isn’t, but the gems that s/he is buying were originally bought with real money. > > There is a gem pool and a gold pool. People buy gems with real money, put the gems in the gem pool and pull out gold. In reverse, people put gold in the gold pool and pull gems from the gem pool (gems that were placed there by people who bought them with real money). The players are buying and selling gold/gems to each other but it’s indirect, through putting gold/gems in a pool and then the computer checks the ratio to calculate the current gold<->gem price. I understand that where gems come from. I never thought any differently. What I am saying, is that when I purchase gems with gold I earned in game from gaming. Those gems are simply in game currency as is the gold. It doesn't matter in the least if real world money touched either that gold or gems at some point. From me, trading in game gold earned through game play to purchase gems means those gems, the ones I purchased (not all gems) are NOT real world money substitutes but just an additional in-game purchases. Who cares if at one time real world money touched them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayakaru.6583 Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 To be honest, i think gold to gems bought keys and lv 10,40,70 keys should have all the junk, but the keys bought with real money should have siginificantly less junk in it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanner Blackfeather.6509 Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 > @Ayakaru.6583 said: > To be honest, i think gold to gems bought keys and lv 10,40,70 keys should have all the junk, but the keys bought with real money should have siginificantly less junk in it Since the gems bought with gold were created when someone bought them with cash, there is no difference between between gems "bought with gold" and gems "bought with real money". Thus, keys bought with gems (i.e. all keys that are bought rather than drop/reward) can't possibly differentiate where *that player* got the gems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shirlias.8104 Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 > @Ayakaru.6583 said: > To be honest, i think gold to gems bought keys and lv 10,40,70 keys should have all the junk, but the keys bought with real money should have siginificantly less junk in it _I am the Credit Card Warrior of Tyria, Gief more shinies!_ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashantara.8731 Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 > @wrathmagik.3518 said: > With black lion chests, since POF, you have 3 chances to get something, but Anet has slyly rigged it so you really only get TWO chances. While it might have gotten worse since PoF, the chests were already rigged before. It all started with the big BLC update around Halloween 2016. Before that, you had a somewhat realistic chance of getting a super rare drop like a permanent contract, or a rare drop like a home instance farming node, or anything useful of the kind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayakaru.6583 Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 > @"Tanner Blackfeather.6509" said: > > @Ayakaru.6583 said: > > To be honest, i think gold to gems bought keys and lv 10,40,70 keys should have all the junk, but the keys bought with real money should have siginificantly less junk in it > > Since the gems bought with gold were created when someone bought them with cash, there is no difference between between gems "bought with gold" and gems "bought with real money". Thus, keys bought with gems (i.e. all keys that are bought rather than drop/reward) can't possibly differentiate where *that player* got the gems. Yellow gems, bought with money Blue gems, bought with gold. Pro: some items can have discounts or better qualities when bought with yellow gems Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Illconceived Was Na.9781 Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 > @Ashantara.8731 said: > > @wrathmagik.3518 said: > > With black lion chests, since POF, you have 3 chances to get something, but Anet has slyly rigged it so you really only get TWO chances. > > While it might have gotten worse since PoF, the chests were already rigged before. It all started with the big BLC update around Halloween 2016. Before that, you had a somewhat realistic chance of getting a super rare drop like a permanent contract, or a rare drop like a home instance farming node, or anything useful of the kind. > > No, there was never a "somewhat realistic chance of getting a super rare drop". The little data we had shows similar (if not worse) rates. What changed was which things might drop. BL Chests have always dropped garbage, with minor consolation prizes (that some people enjoyed and others felt worse-than-nothing). They are never good sources (financially) for an individual to acquire skins or other unlocks. They have always been sold for the entertainment value, not for their contents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einlanzer.1627 Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 The thing that frustrates me about this is the idea that the "house edge" should apply to gambling in an MMO - it shouldn't, because unlike with real gambling - it's an additive system based on RNG, not a zero-sum game. Neither game developers nor players seem to realize this, and it leads to exploitation and a lot of salt. In fact, **the players should have an edge with any video game-based gambling system, and should virtually always come out ahead in the long run**. If you open 100 BL chests, you should expect there to be a high likelihood that the stuff you end up with carries somewhat higher overall value than stuff you would have bought directly because you wanted it. Otherwise, you are being exploited. **They do not have BL chests tuned appropriately, and people need to scream about it until they change it or remove it altogether.** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Illconceived Was Na.9781 Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > The thing that frustrates me about this is the idea that the "house edge" should apply to gambling in an MMO - it shouldn't, because unlike with real gambling - it's an additive system based on RNG, not a zero-sum game. Neither game developers nor players seem to realize this, and it leads to exploitation and a lot of salt. > > In fact, **the players should have an edge with any video game-based gambling system, and should virtually always come out ahead in the long run**. If you open 100 BL chests, you should expect there to be a high likelihood that the stuff you end up with carries somewhat higher overall value than stuff you would have bought directly because you wanted it. Otherwise, you are being exploited. **They do not have BL chests tuned appropriately, and people need to scream about it until they change it or remove it altogether.** If it were a gambling system, maybe. It's not. It's a tool for selling moments of entertainment for a nominal price. They aren't selling the loot; they are selling the excitement of wondering if you might win big. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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