What role schold new engi elite spec have ?

[Infusion.7149]

> @"ThrakathNar.4537" said:

> > @"Infusion.7149" said:

> > Engineer is essentially the least utilized and played class per GW2Efficiency. It's in Arenanet's best interest to make the most played classes the predominant sources of "must have boons" which is why the suggestion of a banner warrior like spec is the best option for the poll. The chrono nerfs and subsequent buffs to firebrand to make it the number one choice for quickness reflect that design philosophy.

> >

> > Right now the order of most common classes are:

> > * Guardian --- #1 playtime

> > * Warrior --- --- #3 in playtime

> > * Necromancer

> > * Ranger --- #2 playtime

> > * Mesmer

> > * Elementalist ---- #4 in playtime

> > * Thief

> > * Revenant

> > * Engineer

> >

> > What is scrapper? A support. One that happens to be dominant in WVW and semi-unwanted in PVE due to lack of DPS or "must have" offensive boons (quickness/alac/might) if run as healing.

> > What is the poll option: "Support that buff alac/quickness to team". So essentially if wells (what used to be gyros as a skill type) added quickness then you would already have that option ingame. It would also achieve role compression similar to HB or druid in that it also heals.

> >

> > Given that engineer already has viable condi options (unlike thief) , that leave the question of what a new spec would bring if it is condi focused. The two main things would be a better weapon than pistol mainhand and an easier skill rotation if it doesn't have a profession specific bonus similar to banners or ranger spirits.

>

> According to GW2 efficiency, that data isn't correct. Elementalist is #5 in playtime, Mesmer #6, and Revenant is #9 in playtime. But setting that aside, Anet definitely doesn't use that methodology to decide which class gets the boons, otherwise herald, renegade, and tempest would all have gone to higher bidders.

>

> Scrapper is not a support, and it never was intended to be a support. If you look at the scrapper traitline, the top row one focuses on increasing personal damage mitigation and superspeed, the middle row on CC, and the bottom row on damage. Impact Savant, Scrapper's minor grandmaster and probably the most build defining trait, is a completely dead trait if you run scrapper as a support. It's a power DPS trait. This is in the same position as Druid's [Natural Mender](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Natural_Mender), or Firebrand's [imbued Haste](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Imbued_Haste), both of which buff your healing output, clarifying the roles of those elite specs. The main reasons why Scrapper is used as a support in WvW is because of Purity of Purpose (a core trait), Medkit (a core heal "skill"), Superspeed (A scrapper mechanic that both DPS and support can output) and Stealth (a scrapper elite). Core engineer is just such a strong healer that it doesn't matter your third traitline isn't dedicated to healing. However, core engi can't put out those offensive boons.

>

> A condi focused elite for engineer would hopefully bring the option to not run triple kit (hopefully only one or two) by giving engineer a strong autoattack and a strong condi utility.

 

Fixed the bit about elementalist.

 

Regardless the reason people don't run heal core engineer or heal holo (there's prot holo but not heal holo) is because of Purge Gyro, Defense Field on Bulwark Gyro , and function gyro in general combined with superspeed. _Purity of Purpose_ could be further gutted and the condition clear would remain the same. It used to be that stealth gyro also had reveal on the toolbelt skill which meant it was a counterplay to enemy scrapper stealth and mesmer veil pushes. People can and do run DPS scrappers in WVW, but after bomb kit autos were nerfed there isn't as much damage output as before. In terms of effectiveness it is far more useful to run heal scrapper because med kit scales insanely with boons. It's also an ideal support build to give new WVW players because you don't need to worry as much about vital cooldowns (kits don't have the long cooldowns of firebrand tomes) ; even a scrapper spamming med kit autos and purge gyro/bulwark gyro/stealth gyro as needed does respectable support while not being extremely susceptible to well bombs due to barriers and superspeed.

 

Also I'm not sure what offensive buffs you mean since if you look at the meta heal scrapper for PVE it specifically states a lack of offensive boons. https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/engineer/scrapper/heal/

* Might comes mainly from HGH.

* In order to output fury you need to run Experimental turrets in conjunction with Rifle Turret.

* No quickness or alacrity but defensively it has heavy condi removal along with some regen and protection output (along with superspeed) which isn't going to replace druids.

 

I don't know how long you've been using engineer but it used to be that gyros were borderline unplayable because they were minions. Gyroscopic Acceleration, Object in Motion, Kinetic Stabilizers, and Speed of Synergy only existed since 2019. Even function gyro was changed. Most of the changes were oriented toward PVE and regardless so long as it is less power damage (even if it's something akin to 33K versus 37K) people will continue to run holo over scrapper as a DPS despite scrapper being less intensive (it's only 1 kit with no Photon Forge) and innately more robust. Almost all scrapper utilities have effects not concentrating on damage, including shredder gyro (spare capacitor is more for the lightning field and daze) and blast gyro (the damage isn't the main feature, you would want it for the launch CC and superspeed from bypass coating ; indeed the LN [suggested build](https://lucky-noobs.com/builds/scrapper-power) runs rifle turret over blast gyro).

 

Even further in recent memory, the February 2020 competitive rework added sustain into the Explosives line in the form of Big Boomer and Blast Shield.

 

At the same time people were/are complaining holo has too much sustain in PVP. Before complaints were about tools holo and now about sword+shield explosives holo...

 

A future condi spec with profession specific bonus and less intensive skill rotation would still be a better option than an alacrity/quickness generator.

 

[ThrakathNar.4537]

> @"Infusion.7149" said:

> Regardless the reason people don't run heal core engineer or heal holo (there's prot holo but not heal holo) is because of Purge Gyro, Defense Field on Bulwark Gyro , and function gyro in general combined with superspeed.

The snowcrows build for heal scrapper actually recommends running tools over scrapper on a lot of bosses, because of the gadgeteer-traited personal battering ram CC. If Scrapper were a support, the traitline would be non-negotiable, which it isn't. They even replace it with holosmith for trio because of the pull on hard light arena.

That's not to say skills like purge gyro and function gyro don't have supportive value in a group setting - they do. But they're not the characteristic defining attribute of a support in this game - that aspect is boons.

 

> _Purity of Purpose_ could be further gutted and the condition clear would remain the same.

The convert would remain the same, but the cover-boon potential wouldn't, which is part of what makes the trait so valuable in WvW, protecting from stab being corrupted. If it were nerfed, scrapper might see replacement with tempest, which can already offer the same (if not more) cleanses.

 

> It used to be that stealth gyro also had reveal on the toolbelt skill

Incidentally, this is now on the core skill utility goggles.

 

> It's also an ideal support build to give new WVW players because you don't need to worry as much about vital cooldowns (kits don't have the long cooldowns of firebrand tomes) ;

Kits are a core utility, tomes are locked behind an elite spec, this doesn't show that scrapper's a good support.

 

> even a scrapper spamming med kit autos and purge gyro/bulwark gyro/stealth gyro as needed does respectable support while not being extremely susceptible to well bombs due to barriers and superspeed.

 

Take that med-kit away though, and would scrapper see any use as a support? It may still take utilities such as bulwark and sneak gyro, but it certainly wouldn't use minstrel stats, because almost all of your healing comes from core. It would probably end up as a DPS build, that just happens to offer a lot of group utility (although not as much group utility as a class like scourge or herald).

 

 

> Also I'm not sure what offensive buffs you mean since if you look at the meta heal scrapper for PVE it specifically states a lack of offensive boons. https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/engineer/scrapper/heal/

> * Might comes mainly from HGH.

> * In order to output fury you need to run Experimental turrets in conjunction with Rifle Turret.

> * No quickness or alacrity but defensively it has heavy condi removal along with some regen and protection output (along with superspeed) which isn't going to replace druids.

 

Yes, I said that "core engi can't put out those offensive boons", which is the same as what SnowCrows say, effectively. A dedicated support spec would change that. Such a spec might not change the firebrigade meta, but it would be a far safer option for less skilled groups, because engineer is a better healer than guardian already.

 

 

> I don't know how long you've been using engineer but it used to be that gyros were borderline unplayable because they were minions. Gyroscopic Acceleration, Object in Motion, Kinetic Stabilizers, and Speed of Synergy only existed since 2019. Even function gyro was changed. Most of the changes were oriented toward PVE and regardless so long as it is less power damage (even if it's something akin to 33K versus 37K) people will continue to run holo over scrapper as a DPS despite scrapper being less intensive (it's only 1 kit with no Photon Forge) and innately more robust. Almost all scrapper utilities have effects not concentrating on damage, including shredder gyro (spare capacitor is more for the lightning field and daze) and blast gyro (the damage isn't the main feature, you would want it for the launch CC and superspeed from bypass coating ; indeed the LN [suggested build](https://lucky-noobs.com/builds/scrapper-power) runs rifle turret over blast gyro).

 

I'm an engi main, and yes, I remember just how painful gyros were to use before the rework (even trying to stealth people when you were standing completely still was beyond the minions), it's part of the reason why I so desperately don't want another minion-based spec. While it's true that scrapper will never reach the DPS numbers of holo, scrapper is built to be much more durable, hence why [Rune of the Scrapper](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Rune_of_the_Scrapper) Has stat boosts to power and toughness (as well as damage reduction). Because it's a durable Power DPS. If it were a support, like druid or firebrand, then the rune stats would improve either healing power or boon duration (which both druid and firebrand's respective runes do).

 

 

 

[Shaogin.2679]

> @"MrForz.1953" said:

> > @"Shaogin.2679" said:

> > Was Firebrand a direct copy of Chronomancer?

> Nope.

>

> >Was Renegade a direct copy of Chronomancer?

> Nope.

>

> >Then why just jump to the conclusion that a support focused Engineer elite spec would just be a copy?

> It's written right here, in the poll: "Support that buff alac/quickness to team (+might ofc)"

>

> It was a shift in meta building when it was figured out that classes with some e-specs could provide a gratuitous amount of quickness and/or alacrity. And from that distance it just looks like you want a part of that cake on an e-spec while not moving from engineer.

>

> >That is hating on something for the sake of wanting to hate it. We can have a support focused elite spec that applies valuable boons without being a carbon copy of an already existing spec.

> There's no hating anywhere. If it's boon support it's already done and overdone, it will either be better or worse than what's actually built and likely not any more interesting than the current builds, your best bet for a support that isn't just a one-up would be unique buffs or team mechanics akin to banners.

>

> And by the way, I fail to see how this is derailing.

>

>

 

My point that you seemed to miss, is that just because people want a support spec that provides useful buffs, it doesn't mean they want a clone of an existing profession. We already have proof that is possible with the existing specs that can fill the same role in a different way. You say we have too many specs providing boon support, but yet only 3 out of 21 specs are currently doing so. I honestly have no idea why you are so worried that it will perform exactly the same as Chrono, Firebrand, or Renegade. Perhaps I can clarify better. Just because I would like an Engineer spec that can provide quickness and/or alacrity or whatever, doesn't mean that I or anyone else here is suggesting that it should be the spec's one and only focus. Firebrand is a great healer and can provide 100% uptime on quickness, however, it can also be used as a top tier condi damage spec.

 

As for your request for it to be a spec that provides unique buffs or team mechanics such as warrior banners, that honestly doesn't feel any different. We already have classes that do this, Ranger and Warrior. This means a few possibilities for your proposed idea. The first is that this new spec out performs and replaces either banner warriors or spirit rangers. The second is that the new spec is worse than the banner warrior or spirit rangers, and therefore sees little to no use. The third is the most problematic. In the third scenario, your new spec performs equally as well as a banner warrior or spirit ranger, which means it is now necessary to bring yet another support class in your squad. This further increases the overall possible power of a squad and further trivializes older content that wasn't balanced with this increase in power in mind. It also means less slots for DPS, which can make it even more difficult for lower DPS or useful classes to make it into a squad.

 

Personally for me, I wouldn't mind either one being a thing. I love the Engineer class, and I love playing support builds. Whether the new elite spec is able to help with boons or provides new unique buffs, it would still have the makings for a decent support spec. Saying a new spec shouldn't exist simply because it "has been done and overdone" just seems silly considering we already have specs that cover the available roles in this game. By that logic, we don't need new elite specs at all, and everyone should just live with what we have already. That isn't the point of Elite Specs though. Elite Specs give us a new way to play a class that we already enjoy playing. It is honestly very refreshing and keeps the game interesting for some of us.

 

Also, no idea what the derailing thing is about, I didn't say anything about that.

[MrForz.1953]

> @"Shaogin.2679" said:

> > @"MrForz.1953" said:

> > > @"Shaogin.2679" said:

> > > Was Firebrand a direct copy of Chronomancer?

> > Nope.

> >

> > >Was Renegade a direct copy of Chronomancer?

> > Nope.

> >

> > >Then why just jump to the conclusion that a support focused Engineer elite spec would just be a copy?

> > It's written right here, in the poll: "Support that buff alac/quickness to team (+might ofc)"

> >

> > It was a shift in meta building when it was figured out that classes with some e-specs could provide a gratuitous amount of quickness and/or alacrity. And from that distance it just looks like you want a part of that cake on an e-spec while not moving from engineer.

> >

> > >That is hating on something for the sake of wanting to hate it. We can have a support focused elite spec that applies valuable boons without being a carbon copy of an already existing spec.

> > There's no hating anywhere. If it's boon support it's already done and overdone, it will either be better or worse than what's actually built and likely not any more interesting than the current builds, your best bet for a support that isn't just a one-up would be unique buffs or team mechanics akin to banners.

> >

> > And by the way, I fail to see how this is derailing.

> >

> >

>

> My point that you seemed to miss, is that just because people want a support spec that provides useful buffs, it doesn't mean they want a clone of an existing profession. We already have proof that is possible with the existing specs that can fill the same role in a different way. You say we have too many specs providing boon support, but yet only 3 out of 21 specs are currently doing so. I honestly have no idea why you are so worried that it will perform exactly the same as Chrono, Firebrand, or Renegade. Perhaps I can clarify better. Just because I would like an Engineer spec that can provide quickness and/or alacrity or whatever, doesn't mean that I or anyone else here is suggesting that it should be the spec's one and only focus. Firebrand is a great healer and can provide 100% uptime on quickness, however, it can also be used as a top tier condi damage spec.

 

Well the full focus is out of the way alright. For the rest, it's hard to discern the intent behind implanting another way to dispense alacrity/quickness. For many people it's just so that the spec immediately becomes top tier instead of an interesting side effect of a theme or flavor, that's the first thing I tend to shoot down because it's simply cheap. There's also the matter of the Engineer's utility skills. Elixirs and tossed Elixirs are chock full of boons with the alchemy trait, and I'd rather see the boon support potential on core made stronger and then have the spec steer it into something else than go from 0 to 100 when switching to said spec, in fear of more utility skills being out of a job so to speak.

 

> As for your request for it to be a spec that provides unique buffs or team mechanics such as warrior banners, that honestly doesn't feel any different. We already have classes that do this, Ranger and Warrior. This means a few possibilities for your proposed idea. The first is that this new spec out performs and replaces either banner warriors or spirit rangers. The second is that the new spec is worse than the banner warrior or spirit rangers, and therefore sees little to no use. The third is the most problematic. In the third scenario, your new spec performs equally as well as a banner warrior or spirit ranger, which means it is now necessary to bring yet another support class in your squad. This further increases the overall possible power of a squad and further trivializes older content that wasn't balanced with this increase in power in mind. It also means less slots for DPS, which can make it even more difficult for lower DPS or useful classes to make it into a squad.

 

Eh it's not my request, it's part of the poll and I'm not fond of it either.

 

> Personally for me, I wouldn't mind either one being a thing. I love the Engineer class, and I love playing support builds. Whether the new elite spec is able to help with boons or provides new unique buffs, it would still have the makings for a decent support spec. Saying a new spec shouldn't exist simply because it "has been done and overdone" just seems silly considering we already have specs that cover the available roles in this game. By that logic, we don't need new elite specs at all, and everyone should just live with what we have already. That isn't the point of Elite Specs though. Elite Specs give us a new way to play a class that we already enjoy playing. It is honestly very refreshing and keeps the game interesting for some of us.

 

Well personally for me... I don't know. Engi is pretty much all I've done since the release across all game modes. The utility skills and the traits they're attached to are well separated from eachother and cover a lot of areas of gameplay, I'm very wary on what one wishes for because many wishes, like a control based spec would simply be made true by having turrets worth deploying. Ultimately I'd desire flavor to be first and then figure out the neat builds that can stem from said flavor, so... yeah, I haven't voted.

 

> Also, no idea what the derailing thing is about, I didn't say anything about that.

 

I had to repost the message because the original one was dusted from existence for being "off topic", the magic of the report button.

[Berryblossom.8921]

> @"Teratus.2859" said:

> Machine gun go Brrrrrr!!!!

 

you have a beautiful mind

[EdwinLi.1284]

I am curious what kind of Elite Spec Engineer may get if it is a Elite Spec that focus on manipulating Quantum