Why can mesmers insta-down people?

[apharma.3741]

> @"EremiteAngel.9765" said:

> I mean...[what can go wrong right?](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/25400/damage-in-wvw-needs-nerf/p1 "https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/25400/damage-in-wvw-needs-nerf/p1")

 

It's worth looking at the damage log and realising what that mesmer is running and doing, the video links don't seem to work for me so I can't view that but from the log there's a big clue in the frozen burst that was absorbed. He is running the complete burst set up where you attack from stealth, mirror blade into mindwrack, mindstab and then swap weapons for hydromancy (maybe geo too) and blurred frenzy. If he messes it up the guy has 0 skill and will run, most likely will not be an issue for 90s as these types burn mass invis for the stealth engage.

 

I hate players like this, it is no skill and detracts from the people who are good with a power shatter build where they don't stealth engage because they're good enough to not need it, where they don't run mantra of distraction because they have the skill to not need it and don't run 2 mesmers same guild, same looks and everything to gank people.

 

On a side note about the damage spike bypassing thresholds for auto procs, it's actually far more vulnerable to that than many bursts from classes as it's a multihit combo. In the example from the quote, had he been a war with endure pain he'd have stopped taking damage after the first mind wrack hit. A druid would have auto weakness on the mesmer as soon as they were touched, engineer elixir S would have gone off on the 2nd mirror blade hit though he'd be effectively dead at that point as it's a 25% health threshold but still a chance to heal and stealth to recover. Just a shame necro only has auto DS on a bad line but you get my drift.

 

Anyway I said it before, all damage needs turning down as well as adjustments to healing, sustain and defences but we are firmly into power creep, every time they buff something underused it's creep.

[EremiteAngel.9765]

> @"K THEN.5162" said:

> > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said:

> > Thank you for sharing. I would like to clarify that this isn't a 'crusade' against you or mesmers in general.

> >

> > It is more the insane burst damage from stealth that I felt needs to be nerfed and as Deceiver pointed out, perhaps the biggest culprit is the lack of tells for such a huge setup.

> >

> > I consider myself to be pretty aware of my surroundings but I never saw you or any tells of you going invis when you caught me with the burst.

> >

> > Would you share how long you can stack invis with your build?

>

> Hi there! No need to worry about me feeling attacked, I understand that power mesmer can be quite frustrating to those on the receiving end. With the PU build, I can stack up to 12 seconds of undetected stealth using Mass Invisibility and Decoy and 16 1/2 when I decide to cast mesmer torch 4. This definitely gives me more than enough time to close in on unsuspecting players travelling in my general direction. In regards to dealing with the untelegraphed burst, I came up with 2 possible solutions that power mesmer mains would probably hate me for:

> 1. The clone spawns on the 3rd bounce of mirrorblade. If this was implemented, it would greatly lower the mesmer's instant burst while still maintaining it's total damage using the same rotation but stopping the 100-0 from stealth shenanigans.

> 2. When you start casting mirrorblade, it debuffs you with reveal, similar to death's judgement. This change, though appearing more bizarre on paper, would keep the same amount of burst damage on mesmer, however it gives your opponent some counterplay if they manage to spot the animation.

>

> Not gonna lie, if either of these changes were implemented, I would more than likely retire my build. However, I am quite passionate about this game and I care deeply about it's overall health in regards to balancing so I understand that certain builds must be eliminated for the sake of preserving build diversity.

>

> All the best with roaming!

>

 

To make things worse, the build the one shot mesmer uses is a PU build where he can stack up to 16 seconds of invis.

More than enough time to hide in a corner or tower and then going invis to close the gap on the enemy.

[K THEN.5162]

> @"apharma.3741" said:

> It's worth looking at the damage log and realising what that mesmer is running and doing, the video links don't seem to work for me so I can't view that but from the log there's a big clue in the frozen burst that was absorbed. He is running the complete burst set up where you attack from stealth, mirror blade into mindwrack, mindstab and then swap weapons for hydromancy (maybe geo too) and blurred frenzy. If he messes it up the guy has 0 skill and will run, most likely will not be an issue for 90s as these types burn mass invis for the stealth engage.

 

+1 for cleverly dissecting my build :P

 

[Thustlewhumber.7416]

I got hit from stealth yesterday and got insta-downed from 22k health. No chance to hit a button at all, just downed.

 

Working as intended.

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

The only thing I dislike about this is the mantra of disruption or what ever it's called (the stun) as it sometimes stuns me mid dodge. but the burst it self is very dodgable even from stealth.

[sephiroth.4217]

Currently running a Phantasm Chrono Shatter build, can down most people instantly but only if they weren't paying attention.

 

If people are paying attention and have any skills to use other than 1, the fight can go either way.

 

Thing about WvW now days, is no one is looking for a fight (maybe 4 snowflakes across 3 servers in a match up, on a good week), so 0-100 builds are the most effective way to kill someone before they stack up on defenses and run to the nearest tower.

 

 

[Corvus.2831]

> @"K THEN.5162" said:

> > @"Corvus.2831" said:

> > No one should be required to equip a specific ability to not be oneshot. You proven our point.

>

> Well my poor little muffin it seems you have 2 option:

> - You can either complain about your counterplay lacking build getting 1 shot by mesmers and demanding it gets nerfed in the next patch **3 months away**

> - Or you can run a specific trait that every class has access to (and is in the game at this current moment) that effectively deals with this sort of build ^_^

>

 

Im not going to become corrupt and play flavor of the month exploit. I want to play what i want to play, its the devs job to make it just as viable as anything else. Otherwise lets just not have that choice. Simple. And also no, not every class has tools to deal with everything and can win. if you sacrifice damage you cant win. if you sacrifice defenses to stand a chance you need a buff or everyone else needs a nerf.

[Strider Pj.2193]

> @"Corvus.2831" said:

> > @"K THEN.5162" said:

> > > @"Corvus.2831" said:

> > > No one should be required to equip a specific ability to not be oneshot. You proven our point.

> >

> > Well my poor little muffin it seems you have 2 option:

> > - You can either complain about your counterplay lacking build getting 1 shot by mesmers and demanding it gets nerfed in the next patch **3 months away**

> > - Or you can run a specific trait that every class has access to (and is in the game at this current moment) that effectively deals with this sort of build ^_^

> >

>

> Im not going to become corrupt and play flavor of the month exploit. I want to play what i want to play, its the devs job to make it just as viable as anything else. Otherwise lets just not have that choice. Simple. And also no, not every class has tools to deal with everything and can win. if you sacrifice damage you cant win. if you sacrifice defenses to stand a chance you need a buff or everyone else needs a nerf.

 

I don't disagree about playing the 'FOTM' build. But not being flexible is foolish as well. I tend to build to counter the meta. It's more fun and more challenging.

 

I also know that this game was never designed to be balanced in group sizes of less than 5.

 

Most of the original focus of skills was based on skill combos. I am quite comfortable when my room gets wrecked in a 2v2, or. 2v4, or a 1v1. I either tweak my build, or work to play differently.

 

Expecting there to be 1v1 balance is actually quite boring.

[coglin.1496]

> @"Corvus.2831" said:

> > @"coglin.1496" said:

> > > @"Corvus.2831" said:

> > > No one should be required to equip a specific ability to not be oneshot. You proven our point.

> >

> > Actually, if you are being "one shotted" you are either running a bad build or playing the build you are running badly. If you are not capable of not being killed by a single button press because of a skill issue, it is perfectly reasonable to utilize a skill, trait, or ability to defend yourself. Remember, your ability to die has as much to do with your skill level and build as it does with your opponents.

> >

> >

>

> You are using imbalance as excuse for imbalance. idiotism.

 

No, I am simply pointing out that I, and many others I play with, do not have this problem at all, yet you do. And the only thing different in those scenarios is you.

 

What is the mesmer using that is so effective against you, and how are they using it? List the skills, and process of how they are using them?

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

2 guys in my guild both hit with DJ a glass mesmer took 38k and a hybrid guardian with 3k armour took 26k and people are still qqing at mesmers

[MUDse.7623]

> @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:

> 2 guys in my guild both hit with DJ a glass mesmer took 38k and a hybrid guardian with 3k armour took 26k and people are still qqing at mesmers

 

both shots was me.

ingame your guild whispers me that i am a cheater cause those numbers are 'impossible' and here you want to claim those as a bigger issue then mesmer stuff ?

i sadly didnt record the shot on the guard but i will upload the mesmer one and update this post then.

so if i am a cheater, there is no point in putting those numbers up for debate - if i am not a cheater, why do i get whispers from your guild claiming so ?

 

oh and nice buffood choice, cause of that i cant onehot you with a backstab and every other engage would be stupid with my build against yours.

 

update:

as promised the mesmer shot

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aDVLsNyK1Y&feature=youtu.be

[Arlette.9684]

> @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:

> > 2 guys in my guild both hit with DJ a glass mesmer took 38k and a hybrid guardian with 3k armour took 26k and people are still qqing at mesmers

>

> both shots was me.

> ingame your guild whispers me that i am a cheater cause those numbers are 'impossible' and here you want to claim those as a bigger issue then mesmer stuff ?

> i sadly didnt record the shot on the guard but i will upload the mesmer one and update this post then.

> so if i am a cheater, there is no point in putting those numbers up for debate - if i am not a cheater, why do i get whispers from your guild claiming so ?

>

> oh and nice buffood choice, cause of that i cant onehot you with a backstab and every other engage would be stupid with my build against yours.

>

> update:

> as promised the mesmer shot

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aDVLsNyK1Y&feature=youtu.be

 

The fact that the mesmer was a sitting duck for as long as he was, makes that shot well deserved.

 

Cheers!

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

> @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:

> > 2 guys in my guild both hit with DJ a glass mesmer took 38k and a hybrid guardian with 3k armour took 26k and people are still qqing at mesmers

>

> both shots was me.

> ingame your guild whispers me that i am a cheater cause those numbers are 'impossible' and here you want to claim those as a bigger issue then mesmer stuff ?

> i sadly didnt record the shot on the guard but i will upload the mesmer one and update this post then.

> so if i am a cheater, there is no point in putting those numbers up for debate - if i am not a cheater, why do i get whispers from your guild claiming so ?

>

> oh and nice buffood choice, cause of that i cant onehot you with a backstab and every other engage would be stupid with my build against yours.

>

> update:

> as promised the mesmer shot

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aDVLsNyK1Y&feature=youtu.be

 

weird, because i am the thief you tried to gank a few times (got lucky with the BS wich i didnt expt. I pretty sure i landed an 8k combo hit on you at 1 point and you wasnt bought below 2/3's health so i thought you was running the valkry version and relying on hidden killer. interesting though, seen some high numbers not 38k lol

[MUDse.7623]

> @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:

> > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:

> > > 2 guys in my guild both hit with DJ a glass mesmer took 38k and a hybrid guardian with 3k armour took 26k and people are still qqing at mesmers

> >

> > both shots was me.

> > ingame your guild whispers me that i am a cheater cause those numbers are 'impossible' and here you want to claim those as a bigger issue then mesmer stuff ?

> > i sadly didnt record the shot on the guard but i will upload the mesmer one and update this post then.

> > so if i am a cheater, there is no point in putting those numbers up for debate - if i am not a cheater, why do i get whispers from your guild claiming so ?

> >

> > oh and nice buffood choice, cause of that i cant onehot you with a backstab and every other engage would be stupid with my build against yours.

> >

> > update:

> > as promised the mesmer shot

> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aDVLsNyK1Y&feature=youtu.be

>

> weird, because i am the thief you tried to gank a few times (got lucky with the BS wich i didnt expt. I pretty sure i landed an 8k combo hit on you and you wasnt bought below 2/3's health. intresting though,

 

right as said i wanst able to oneshot you with BS yet but i tried a few times. and the reason for this is you buffood as stated above - do you want some clips from other thieves who did take different food and therefor died?

in wich of the fights did you land that combo? on the day i shot you guard i was trying to gank you in your zerg and had pretty much all your zerg on me once out of stealth i barely escaped those and mostly was way below 2/3 - and i am pretty certain you didnt hit me there much or i would have died.

or are you talking about the two fights in the tower on reset? those i still got on record and you didnt hit me with a 8k combo there. the first attempt i did a failstab non crit front stab for ~2k so i disengage and second attempt you run away.

so still dont understand you point do you now think i am a cheater ? then why would you even mention those shots in this discussion - if not why should i care about you fialing your 8k combo -whatever that is. would be nice if you showed me your recording with me actually taking 8k dmg without dropping below 2/3 .

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

nah dude, was last MU vs the french, erm Thursday? between garri and bay just after the first time you downed me. combo was steal + flanking strike and an AA

 

cheater? ofc not...i doubt there is even such of a thing as a dps cheat... speed hack/fly hack sure, everyone knows that. i mention them, (mainly the 38k shot) because i have never seen that high before, people are complaining about stun mesmer burst but no 1 complains about this (i am not complaining neither, just saying)

[MUDse.7623]

if the DJ hits i do think it is stronger then mesmer burst as it easier bypasses procs. but in most cases it is easier avoided unless you trick your opponent so you ensure your out of their field of view and remove DJ tells. like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cy1UJIyp4Qk&feature=youtu.be

 

in most cases i use spotters shot before DJ so they are immobilized, guess that makes it similar to the common mesmer burst ? but still slower.

the thing with DJ is in a closed combat scenario like a duel, you wont let yourself get hit by a DJ. in everyday wvw the chances are alot higher you will get hit.

you dont need to be able to react fast as a stealth camper because the class wont let you, you only need patience to wait for the right moment and there are many such moments a little distraction or a movement skill that you need to cancel by weapon swaping to dodge is often enough if needed at all.

there were many complains about DJ but the thieves forum mainly says that rifle is really weak, has many tells, everyone can dodge it allways and if you cant your bad..

basically the forum considers a stealth sniper weak, if you die to one your even worse .. well i do many kills with it so am i good?

i think because stealth camping deadeye cannot be improved much with skill like you can with other thief builds and the fact that many think it is really weak leads to very few deadeyes around, while i do see alot of mesmer. more mesmers = more QQ. and the reaction is also different mesmers mainly say : but we do give up this and that, deadeye will only say: well you are bad if you die to this. it is easier to argue that mesmers dont give up enough, then asking for more tells on DJ because i seriously dont know what else to add - maybe target dodges automatically if they still got endurance :D but that would also be considered too strong as you could drain endurance.

 

i think the last discussion about DJ damage was active till shortly before last balance patch in the thieves forum and it will allways lead to : if you cant dodge , your bad - because deadeye with rifle is weak.

doesnt work for mesmer bursts it seems, i do think they are highly predictable and i can mostly avoid them with stealth anyway so they are just an annoyance if they appear in groups.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[johnnymiller.5968]

Twice yesterday a small group of 5 were downed by the same mesmer, the group included myself. The frustrating part was seeing red 0's appearing on screen when hitting the mesmer, yet one or two hits from the mesmer, 26k health gone, while the enemy players health bar practically did not move. How do you counter this?

[MUDse.7623]

> @"johnnymiller.5968" said:

> Twice yesterday a small group of 5 were downed by the same mesmer, the group included myself. The frustrating part was seeing red 0's appearing on screen when hitting the mesmer, yet one or two hits from the mesmer, 26k health gone, while the enemy players health bar practically did not move. How do you counter this?

 

if you are hitting the mesmer the numbers should not be red but white - maybe with a red splash in the background if they are critical. if you see red numbers those are hits to your own toon probably from the mesmer.

aside from that there is no way you hit a mesmer for 0 dmg maybe if you are a mesmer and your clones hit for 0 , but other then that mesmers do not have a skill like endure pain to my knowledge.

[Velran.1052]

I like how people are excusing deadeye by saying you should just dodge, When they can sustain perma stealth rather easily. There's literally nothing you can do to avoid it other than run away...

And no, Mesmers cannot one shot warriors, or anything with passive defences like endure pain/signet of stone. Its frankly amazing you people are still trying to make people believe its realistically doable.

The only real one shots are from deadeye and warrior, But hey warrior doesn't have perma stealth.

And pretty much every class can one shot other people if they build for it. This thread is pointless as kitten.

[DemonSeed.3528]

> @"Velran.1052" said:

> And no, Mesmers cannot one shot warriors

> And pretty much every class can one shot other people if they build for it.

?

 

[godofcows.2451]

You guys know what's embarassing? The class just went through a balance pass last patch.

[Yseron.8613]

Mesmers drink this:


 

[Arlette.9684]

> @"Yseron.8613" said:

> Mesmers drink this:

> 

>

 

I'm temped to drop a line out of "The Fluffy Movie" but I'll refrain as I'm sure some random hippie will find it antisemitic.

Instead I'll say "Blood of Noobs!"

[K THEN.5162]

> @"Arlette.9684" said:

> > @"Yseron.8613" said:

> > Mesmers drink this:

> > 

> >

>

> I'm temped to drop a line out of "The Fluffy Movie" but I'll refrain as I'm sure some random hippie will find it antisemitic.

> Instead I'll say "Blood of Noobs!"

 

Mesmers will have to watch their cholesterol, I'm sure the drink has high levels of salt

[Inoki.6048]

> @"Shirlias.8104" said:

> > @"Burnfall.9573" said:

> >

 

@ANet, if this is OK, then I don't know..... yet everyone complains about DEs that have a massive tell and can be countered in 90% of the instances.

Pure cancer.