KrHome.1920 Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 Spectral Armor + Shroud combo = knowing and using it is more important than ever before Some thoughts: - NCSY! + Shroud = a lot more unblockable damage in 5 seconds, this means Dragonhunters and Revenants are easier to kill - Thieves aren't even a softcounter anymore. Power Reaper shroud burst is devastating to Thieves (on top of that the new Plague Sending negates their soft cc) - Staff/LB-Druid fights are a lot more difficult now as your main damage source against them is Axe/Focus and not Shroud (for that matchup the patch was a 100% nerf to Reaper) So it depends on your matchup whether the changes were a buff or a nerf. But all in all I think Reaper is overnerfed - esp. in team fights. I would be fine with a 4% degeneration. 5% just feels wrong - even after about 5 hours of testing and duelling. Alternatively keep the 5% degen but change Shroud cooldown to 5 seconds for more flexiblity and better on demand defense. (I vote for the 5s cooldown) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldrick.8967 Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 > @KrHome.1920 said: > Spectral Armor + Shroud combo = knowing and using it is more important than ever before > > Some thoughts: > - NCSY! + Shroud = a lot more unblockable damage in 5 seconds, this means Dragonhunters and Revenants are easier to kill > - Thieves aren't even a softcounter anymore. Power Reaper shroud burst is devastating to Thieves (on top of that the new Plague Sending negates their soft cc) > - Staff/LB-Druid fights are a lot more difficult now as your main damage source against them is Axe/Focus and not Shroud (for that matchup the patch was a 100% nerf to Reaper) > > So it depends on your matchup whether the changes were a buff or a nerf. > > But all in all I think Reaper is overnerfed - esp. in team fights. I would be fine with a 4% degeneration. 5% just feels wrong - even after about 5 hours of testing and duelling. Alternatively keep the 5% degen but change Shroud cooldown to 5 seconds for more flexiblity and better on demand defense. (I vote for the 5s cooldown) And how exactly do you unload your shroud damage on any decent thief? As soon as you pop shroud he's gone, as soon as you exit shroud he's all over you and your shroud is now on cooldown... And all your examples are 1v1, where the real problem isn't. In group situations (ie wvw), the nerf is very, very hard. Have now changed build - basically grabbing everything that helps shroud and life force and can just about make it work as long as no one focuses me. As soon as someone starts aiming at you, shroud now drops so fast.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vitali.5039 Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 > @Baldrick.8967 said: > And how exactly do you unload your shroud damage on any decent thief? As soon as you pop shroud he's gone, as soon as you exit shroud he's all over you and your shroud is now on cooldown... How exactly we were unloading our shroud damage on any decent thief pre patch? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dceptaconroy.7928 Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 Wait for him to afk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Despond.2174 Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 It was too large of a gameplay change, regardless if its more DPS. Just like adding mini cast times on zerker skills, I'd rather DMG be adjusted to be better or worse, than GAMEPLAY changes. The feel of the build, the rotation is what draws me, having a long shroud was very versatile for reaper, our only real defense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
intox.6347 Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 > @Vitali.5039 said: > > @Baldrick.8967 said: > > And how exactly do you unload your shroud damage on any decent thief? As soon as you pop shroud he's gone, as soon as you exit shroud he's all over you and your shroud is now on cooldown... > > How exactly we were unloading our shroud damage on any decent thief pre patch? > > > To met power reaper roaming, u must be lucky af. All reapers was condi deathly chill... and they have proc ... so if thief jumped on you, go shroud and proc them... it was 50/50 to kill or die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vitali.5039 Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 > @intox.6347 said: > > @Vitali.5039 said: > > > @Baldrick.8967 said: > > > And how exactly do you unload your shroud damage on any decent thief? As soon as you pop shroud he's gone, as soon as you exit shroud he's all over you and your shroud is now on cooldown... > > > > How exactly we were unloading our shroud damage on any decent thief pre patch? > > > > > > > To met power reaper roaming, u must be lucky af. All reapers was condi deathly chill... and they have proc ... so if thief jumped on you, go shroud and proc them... it was 50/50 to kill or die. > Even power procs can deal damage, air/hydromancy/chilling nova/spiteful spirit/chill of death with 100% crit from death perception is a thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrHome.1920 Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 > @Baldrick.8967 said: > And how exactly do you unload your shroud damage on any decent thief? Shroud enter: - Spiteful Spirit - Air/Fire or Leeching/Hydromancy - Chilling Nova - Chill of Death - Weakening Shroud all instant autoprocs, at 100% crit rate - the damage potential on the typical marauder thief (19k health in WvW) is about 7 to 10k damage - pretty significant for one single button press with an instant effect >As soon as you pop shroud he's gone, as soon as you exit shroud he's all over you and your shroud is now on cooldown... Please learn the basics and pick tools to survive the cooldown! It's not that hard - well I am a former thief main (3k hours), guess that's the reason why thief rotations are no big deal for me. I usually know what they will do next, how much initiative they currently have and their remaining utility cooldowns. > And all your examples are 1v1, where the real problem isn't. In group situations (ie wvw), the nerf is very, very hard. Please read my posting before you answer! Thanks! I said exactly the same like you! > Have now changed build - basically grabbing everything that helps shroud and life force and can just about make it work as long as no one focuses me. As soon as someone starts aiming at you, shroud now drops so fast.... I switched from Axe/Focus + GS to Staff + GS for some reasons: - Speed of Shadows is awful now, so taking Staff Marks is no big deal - the need to deal as much long ranged damage and cc as possible before my target comes close, and when it comes close the buffed shroud compensates the low Staff damage - stay at distance as long as possible in team fights while still being able to hit and cc multiple targets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimon.7840 Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 > @kKagari.6804 said: > > @ilmau.9781 said: > > > @Plutocracy.9314 said: > > > > @ilmau.9781 said: > > > > Have you ever played WvW or pvp? > > > > > > scourge? > > > > Let's make it very clear, i preordered the expansion the day it was announced, did all the open weekends and unlocked the scourge the first 10 seconds the expansion was released and still i do not like it. I do preafear to play Reaper. Am i allowed to have personal feelings or do i have to play what ANET force me to play? > > > > Beacouse as it is now Anet turned Reaper to a totally unplayable class for WvW and PvP, and for what reason? To force ppl to play Scourge? > > > > > > > > > > Reaper is way more playable now in PvP. A lot of the changes emphasize the ability to counterattack once you enter shroud. > Entering shroud lets you: > * Corrupt boons better than before > * Transfer conditions > * Gain enhanced might > * Consume conditions > > This was no available to reapers before. I dont want necro to be a pvp class only! Wtf is this shit. The changes to power reaper are pretty nice, but now shroud got nerved even harder, and still we didnt get any invulnerability or any blocks or any improved movement like dodges from weapon skills. If u cant do it properly, just delete necro from game. That would be a better option Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilmau.9781 Posted November 9, 2017 Author Share Posted November 9, 2017 > @KrHome.1920 said: > > @Baldrick.8967 said: > > And how exactly do you unload your shroud damage on any decent thief? > Shroud enter: > - Spiteful Spirit > - Air/Fire or Leeching/Hydromancy > - Chilling Nova > - Chill of Death > - Weakening Shroud > > all instant autoprocs, at 100% crit rate - the damage potential on the typical marauder thief (19k health in WvW) is about 7 to 10k damage - pretty significant for one single button press with an instant effect > > >As soon as you pop shroud he's gone, as soon as you exit shroud he's all over you and your shroud is now on cooldown... > Please learn the basics and pick tools to survive the cooldown! It's not that hard - well I am a former thief main (3k hours), guess that's the reason why thief rotations are no big deal for me. I usually know what they will do next, how much initiative they currently have and their remaining utility cooldowns. > > > And all your examples are 1v1, where the real problem isn't. In group situations (ie wvw), the nerf is very, very hard. > Please read my posting before you answer! Thanks! I said exactly the same like you! > > > Have now changed build - basically grabbing everything that helps shroud and life force and can just about make it work as long as no one focuses me. As soon as someone starts aiming at you, shroud now drops so fast.... > I switched from Axe/Focus + GS to Staff + GS for some reasons: > - Speed of Shadows is awful now, so taking Staff Marks is no big deal > - the need to deal as much long ranged damage and cc as possible before my target comes close, and when it comes close the buffed shroud compensates the low Staff damage > - stay at distance as long as possible in team fights while still being able to hit and cc multiple targets > Cool story Bro!!! all those stuffs require you to be in melee range, which is basically not happening in WvW roaming, so roaming reaper is dead. In WvW zerg fights, which now thanks to the new uber Scourge are 100% Pirate Sheep meta you can not even think to get in melee range alive. In PvP you suffer kite now more than ever, like mobility were not an issue for Reaper already. in Raid nor reaper nor scourge damage are relevant, you won t find a group who takes you. How do you call this if not an epic fail ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrHome.1920 Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 > @ilmau.9781 said: > > @KrHome.1920 said: > > > @Baldrick.8967 said: > > > And how exactly do you unload your shroud damage on any decent thief? > > Shroud enter: > > - Spiteful Spirit > > - Air/Fire or Leeching/Hydromancy > > - Chilling Nova > > - Chill of Death > > - Weakening Shroud > > > > all instant autoprocs, at 100% crit rate - the damage potential on the typical marauder thief (19k health in WvW) is about 7 to 10k damage - pretty significant for one single button press with an instant effect > > > > >As soon as you pop shroud he's gone, as soon as you exit shroud he's all over you and your shroud is now on cooldown... > > Please learn the basics and pick tools to survive the cooldown! It's not that hard - well I am a former thief main (3k hours), guess that's the reason why thief rotations are no big deal for me. I usually know what they will do next, how much initiative they currently have and their remaining utility cooldowns. > > > > > And all your examples are 1v1, where the real problem isn't. In group situations (ie wvw), the nerf is very, very hard. > > Please read my posting before you answer! Thanks! I said exactly the same like you! > > > > > Have now changed build - basically grabbing everything that helps shroud and life force and can just about make it work as long as no one focuses me. As soon as someone starts aiming at you, shroud now drops so fast.... > > I switched from Axe/Focus + GS to Staff + GS for some reasons: > > - Speed of Shadows is awful now, so taking Staff Marks is no big deal > > - the need to deal as much long ranged damage and cc as possible before my target comes close, and when it comes close the buffed shroud compensates the low Staff damage > > - stay at distance as long as possible in team fights while still being able to hit and cc multiple targets > > > > Cool story Bro!!! all those stuffs require you to be in melee range, which is basically not happening in WvW roaming, so roaming reaper is dead. > In WvW zerg fights, which now thanks to the new uber Scourge are 100% Pirate Sheep meta you can not even think to get in melee range alive. > In PvP you suffer kite now more than ever, like mobility were not an issue for Reaper already. > in Raid nor reaper nor scourge damage are relevant, you won t find a group who takes you. > > How do you call this if not an epic fail ??? Okay I give up. This lack of reading comprehension is insane. It feels like discussing with 12 year old children or at least totally incompetent players, that don't even get the class basics. Keep up the whine while others adapt and improve! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Morbius.1759 Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 > @Obtena.7952 said: > Now hold on ... nothing that has changed PREVENTS you from playing a build you can make with the tools we have, just like before. "play how you want" does not mean YOU can tell Anet how they can change the game; that's a ridiculous way to think. If you can't adjust to find one you like to play as the game changes (rather frequently), you need to really rethink *how* you play this game. I beg to differ, i played power reaper minion master and now with the changes i cannot use death magic and keep my shroud up long enough to even get through the offensive cycle before running out of shroud. I have had to switch to a completely different build to be nearly as effective as i was before so yes i can still play effectively but not the way i want to play! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vitali.5039 Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 > @"Vlad Morbius.1759" said: > > @Obtena.7952 said: > > Now hold on ... nothing that has changed PREVENTS you from playing a build you can make with the tools we have, just like before. "play how you want" does not mean YOU can tell Anet how they can change the game; that's a ridiculous way to think. If you can't adjust to find one you like to play as the game changes (rather frequently), you need to really rethink *how* you play this game. > > I beg to differ, i played power reaper minion master and now with the changes i cannot use death magic and keep my shroud up long enough to even get through the offensive cycle before running out of shroud. I have had to switch to a completely different build to be nearly as effective as i was before so yes i can still play effectively but not the way i want to play! Spectral Armor e/o Locust Swarm helps in that regard, Reaper's Onslaught+Chilling Victory too. Even Reaper's Touch before Shroud isn't bad. * Reaper's Onslaught: to speed up the LF gain from Life Reap and recharge Shroud's CD * CD recharged: more damage reduction via Infusing Terror (better LF value) and prevent damage (Death's Charge/Terrify/Executioner's Scythe) * Better chill uptime to benefit from Chilling Nova, Chilling Victory and Cold Shoulder Those things don't require you to drop Death Magic, only a off hand/utility slot. If you'll post your build you can have some advice from us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZDragon.3046 Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 > @ilmau.9781 said: > > @Plutocracy.9314 said: > > > @ilmau.9781 said: > > > How exactly i am supposed to do damage if i can not stay alive????? > > > > dodge? > > > > here the genius of the week. Have you ever played WvW or pvp? Why the heck would you run reaper in WvW :'D Please stop In pvp Reaper is still playable if anything people are more worried about you now when you go into shroud than they ever have been. (get a good team perhaps?) Maybe stop trying to play tanky reaper that meta is gone adapt and enjoy the damage buffs like reaper has needed sense HoT release To the "How am i suppose to stay alive." Spectral armor > shroud For protection and duration as you are getting hit. Dont simply walk in and assume you will be a super tank actually try to plan your engagements properly :U Necro positioning and timing has always been super cirtical because of how necros get focused on so quickly. If you think you can go in and chill in shroud for 20 seconds and no one is going to mind you are wrong. Even with the old degeneration you would probably still die due to being focused the moment you went in if you get ganked by 3-4 people and they really want to stomp you into the floor before anyone else you are likely going to die regardless of the degen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crinn.7864 Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 > @ZDragon.3046 said: > In pvp Reaper is still playable if anything people are more worried about you now when you go into shroud than they ever have been. (get a good team perhaps?) > Maybe stop trying to play tanky reaper that meta is gone adapt and enjoy the damage buffs like reaper has needed sense HoT release Get out of silver. Reaper is too easy to counterpressure out of shroud., we can't brawl anymore which makes us useless. And before you say it's warranted given the damage increases to shroud, it's worth noting that our damage in shroud is no better than other brawler classes that aren't so easily counterpressured. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilmau.9781 Posted November 9, 2017 Author Share Posted November 9, 2017 > @ZDragon.3046 said: > > @ilmau.9781 said: > > > @Plutocracy.9314 said: > > > > @ilmau.9781 said: > > > > How exactly i am supposed to do damage if i can not stay alive????? > > > > > > dodge? > > > > > > > here the genius of the week. Have you ever played WvW or pvp? > > Why the heck would you run reaper in WvW :'D Please stop > In pvp Reaper is still playable if anything people are more worried about you now when you go into shroud than they ever have been. (get a good team perhaps?) > Maybe stop trying to play tanky reaper that meta is gone adapt and enjoy the damage buffs like reaper has needed sense HoT release > > To the "How am i suppose to stay alive." > Spectral armor > shroud > For protection and duration as you are getting hit. > Dont simply walk in and assume you will be a super tank actually try to plan your engagements properly :U Necro positioning and timing has always been super cirtical because of how necros get focused on so quickly. If you think you can go in and chill in shroud for 20 seconds and no one is going to mind you are wrong. Even with the old degeneration you would probably still die due to being focused the moment you went in if you get ganked by 3-4 people and they really want to stomp you into the floor before anyone else you are likely going to die regardless of the degen. yo, i do not know where you are playing but in tier 1-2 europe you get instantly melted the second you engage. Let s assume you have full life force and nothing in cooldown and you egange with Locust Swarm active and Spectral armor and go in Shourd still you can t last more than 2-3 seconds due to lack of stability / brekstuns who expose you to any CC and due to the amount of damage taken. You can easily drop 22k life force and 28k hp in less than 5 seconds. SO YES we do fucking need life force to stay alive, otherwise game is just stay one group in front of another and spam ranged attacks in front. Much much fun, can t wait to play this way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilmau.9781 Posted November 10, 2017 Author Share Posted November 10, 2017 > @Crinn.7864 said: > > @ZDragon.3046 said: > > In pvp Reaper is still playable if anything people are more worried about you now when you go into shroud than they ever have been. (get a good team perhaps?) > > Maybe stop trying to play tanky reaper that meta is gone adapt and enjoy the damage buffs like reaper has needed sense HoT release > > Get out of silver. > > Reaper is too easy to counterpressure out of shroud., we can't brawl anymore which makes us useless. And before you say it's warranted given the damage increases to shroud, it's worth noting that our damage in shroud is no better than other brawler classes that aren't so easily counterpressured. > > ppl do just do not understand that, and my concern is that if there is someone actually testing the changes or if they just try random stuffs and see what happens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted November 10, 2017 Share Posted November 10, 2017 > @"Vlad Morbius.1759" said: > > @Obtena.7952 said: > > Now hold on ... nothing that has changed PREVENTS you from playing a build you can make with the tools we have, just like before. "play how you want" does not mean YOU can tell Anet how they can change the game; that's a ridiculous way to think. If you can't adjust to find one you like to play as the game changes (rather frequently), you need to really rethink *how* you play this game. > > I beg to differ, i played power reaper minion master and now with the changes i cannot use death magic and keep my shroud up long enough to even get through the offensive cycle before running out of shroud. I have had to switch to a completely different build to be nearly as effective as i was before so yes i can still play effectively but not the way i want to play! That doesn't mean you can't play that build ... let's be VERY clear. There is a big difference in sensationalizing 'destroyed' builds and recognizing that you have to adapt your playstyle to the new changes. You camped RS for a full offensive cycle before ... and didn't have to think too much about it. Now, you do have to think about what skills your going to use because you can't faceroll them in a single shroud-length. That doesn't mean your build is 'destroyed' or 'unplayable'. it means you have to play it different ... i.e., you have to think about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crinn.7864 Posted November 10, 2017 Share Posted November 10, 2017 > @intox.6347 said: > > @Vitali.5039 said: > > > @Baldrick.8967 said: > > > And how exactly do you unload your shroud damage on any decent thief? As soon as you pop shroud he's gone, as soon as you exit shroud he's all over you and your shroud is now on cooldown... > > > > How exactly we were unloading our shroud damage on any decent thief pre patch? > > > > > > > To met power reaper roaming, u must be lucky af. All reapers was condi deathly chill... and they have proc ... so if thief jumped on you, go shroud and proc them... it was 50/50 to kill or die. > That's a bit niche though, as it only applies to WvW roaming. In sPvP you can't do that because Hydromancy and Geomancy Sigils don't exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilmau.9781 Posted November 10, 2017 Author Share Posted November 10, 2017 > @Crinn.7864 said: > > @intox.6347 said: > > > @Vitali.5039 said: > > > > @Baldrick.8967 said: > > > > And how exactly do you unload your shroud damage on any decent thief? As soon as you pop shroud he's gone, as soon as you exit shroud he's all over you and your shroud is now on cooldown... > > > > > > How exactly we were unloading our shroud damage on any decent thief pre patch? > > > > > > > > > > > To met power reaper roaming, u must be lucky af. All reapers was condi deathly chill... and they have proc ... so if thief jumped on you, go shroud and proc them... it was 50/50 to kill or die. > > > > That's a bit niche though, as it only applies to WvW roaming. In sPvP you can't do that because Hydromancy and Geomancy Sigils don't exist. ok, i agree there but indeed in WvW builds are more powerfull than pvp, i mean it also happens more often to have to fight 1vs2/3/4/5 so i think it is normal, no ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trueanimus.4085 Posted November 10, 2017 Share Posted November 10, 2017 tested this last night, the math checks out. Now with a full bar, i cant even get through all 5 skills on shroud before im drained and kicked out of shroud Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilmau.9781 Posted November 11, 2017 Author Share Posted November 11, 2017 > @trueanimus.4085 said: > tested this last night, the math checks out. Now with a full bar, i cant even get through all 5 skills on shroud before im drained and kicked out of shroud what game mode did you tested? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Funky.4861 Posted November 14, 2017 Share Posted November 14, 2017 I have no idea how u guys are running out of LF so quickly. We did our wing 1 and 2 raid clears last night. On glenna escort (i'm in the tower group) every time i went up i was able to use 3->5->4->flip 3->2->1->1->2 and usually exit shroud with some LF left. Ofc the mobs were pulled beforehand and my blinds from gs4 and well of darkness were active. I still took damage, i was still knocked about a bit, but i had no problem using all the skills before getting below 1/2 LF. Vipers reaper btw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slight.2763 Posted November 14, 2017 Share Posted November 14, 2017 Eh hem. Came back from a while to my necro, and loosing about 15 seconds in shroud was the exact first thing I noticed. Made me not play again for a week. Less shroud has made the fights for PoF personal storyline AWEFUL. FACET. OF. GD. GLINT. Something with the builds has gone HORRIBLY wrong when my Mirage can pick apart literally everything, and necro is struggling. Rebuilt Reaper, no good. Built Scourge condi and then pwr/pri/heal, no good. Somebody broke something, and they need to own up to it and fix it. I even understand if it did need to be toned down, but ALMOST HALF ??! Had to force people to attempt to build a working Scourge somehow I guess! Or increase the market on vitality gear even higher, for that matter =/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turk.5460 Posted November 15, 2017 Share Posted November 15, 2017 Reaper shroud should probably go back to 3% decay. I don't even play Power Reaper, but I can tell you by playing against one, it is pretty easy already to kite or avoid Reaper Shroud attacks on ...pretty much all my roaming professions. (Thief, War, Guard, Ranger, Engi) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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