Mirage and Holosmith damage is over the top.

[Swagg.9236]

> @Doam.8305 said:

> Mirage is fine ... More or less DPS is all their really good for and if you remove that then their completely pointless.

 

That's every class in PvP and PvE, though. It's worth it to draw some lines. When every class has a self-heal along with bunch of built-in, easy-access, or no-sacrifice options which provide perfect damage negation, the only thing left to ramp up is DPS. You can't scale perfect damage negation; it's always set to 100%. Even WvW follows this *exact* same principle; the only difference there is that there is no cap on player team numbers, so people can throw in a bunch of healbots without sacrificing blob DPS.

 

What about Reaper? The only thing any necro can do is DPS and yet it's effectively removed from meta PvE comps. Spellbreaker does nothing but DPS; it's effectiveness at doing so hasn't been compromised. The only thing that changed was it's ability to be invulnerable to incoming effects. Everything is DPS in GW2; there are simply a lot of DPS options that are just far more unfair/overtuned than others. GW2 likes to remove the responsibilities of risk, timing, and positioning from players, but some classes just have a lot easier than others for no justifiable reason. Flavor is not a metric by which one should balance function.

[Swagg.9236]

> @Nubu.6148 said:

> Holo isnt over the top , mirage is .... i play both specs .

 

Permanent stability through the use of a 5-8k AoE on a super-low cooldown is not balanced. Change that trait to do something other than grant passive stability on Corona Burst, and Holosmith becomes tolerable.

[Jeknar.6184]

> @Swagg.9236 said:

> > @Nubu.6148 said:

> > Holo isnt over the top , mirage is .... i play both specs .

>

> Permanent stability through the use of a 5-8k AoE on a super-low cooldown is not balanced. Change that trait to do something other than grant passive stability on Corona Burst, and Holosmith becomes tolerable.

 

Yeah, let's kill the only viable stability of a Melee spec and it will become totally fine... After all, that's why Power Reapers are meta, amirite?

[Unholy Pillager.3791]

> @Grebcol.5984 said:

> > @Jeknar.6184 said:

> > > @Grebcol.5984 said:

> > > The Balance is a joke right now

> > >

> > > 

> > >

> >

> > 14k Overheat? What are you? A full Glass Thief?

>

> No

 

I think the relevant questions are still, "what _were_ you playing, and _why didn't you cleanse the twenty stacks of vulnerability that you had to have had on you?_"

 

> @Swagg.9236 said:

> > @Nubu.6148 said:

> > Holo isnt over the top , mirage is .... i play both specs .

>

> Permanent stability through the use of a 5-8k AoE on a super-low cooldown is not balanced. Change that trait to do something other than grant passive stability on Corona Burst, and Holosmith becomes tolerable.

 

It lasts for the first ten seconds or so of a fight. Once the heat gets too high, they lose almost all of their burst damage as well as all of their stability. Seems a fair trade off for the massive self-damage potential, squishiness, and the fact that all of their heavy damage is short range, apart from an elite with a sixty second cooldown.

[Ithilwen.1529]

> @Solori.6025 said:

> So...instead of trying to nerf individual classes?

> Why not just cut off the head of the snake and nerf the ability to do burst conditions

> or spam 5-7 conditions at a time? (or in the case of FB 10-15 stacks of a single condition in a second)

>

> Wouldnt that take care of 80% of the issues people have with conditions?

 

I would also basically put conditions out of the game and necro and Mesmer with them.

[Ithilwen.1529]

 

There's this weird idea that if one loses to a Mesmer then the class must be OP. The reality is that the class has suffered through years of being "trash tier." In addition every "good" trick in the Mesmer's quiver has been given away. Resistance, Alacrity, Portal, Moa, Confusion even Phantasms... all given away in an effort to limit Mesmers.

I return the "advice" I have so often been given: "Learn to play."

[Malediktus.9250]

> @Ithilwen.1529 said:

>

> There's this weird idea that if one loses to a Mesmer then the class must be OP. The reality is that the class has suffered through years of being "trash tier." In addition every "good" trick in the Mesmer's quiver has been given away. Resistance, Alacrity, Portal, Moa, Confusion even Phantasms... all given away in an effort to limit Mesmers.

> I return the "advice" I have so often been given: "Learn to play."

Mesmer was always god tier due to the high mobility, moa and portals.

[Chaith.8256]

> @Grebcol.5984 said:

> The Balance is a joke right now

>

> 

>

 

> @Ithilwen.1529 said:

> The reality is that the class has suffered through years of being "trash tier."

 

There was never a trash tier Mesmer, only trash tier players. Mesmer was optional until 2015 but still represented in every major competition, pre-HoT too

[Jeknar.6184]

> @Ithilwen.1529 said:

>

> There's this weird idea that if one loses to a Mesmer then the class must be OP. The reality is that the class has suffered through years of being "trash tier." In addition every "good" trick in the Mesmer's quiver has been given away. Resistance, Alacrity, Portal, Moa, Confusion even Phantasms... all given away in an effort to limit Mesmers.

> I return the "advice" I have so often been given: "Learn to play."

 

Resistance (prior even becoming a boon) was first introduced by Warrior as Berserker Stance (though it was only self) it's not a "Mesmer Trick"

Confusion was also very prominent on Engineer since launch so it also isn't a "Mesmer Trick"

Alacrity was given to Ventari revenants in a atempt to make them relevant and chrono less mandatory, yet nobody will take a Ventari rev over a chrono for the alacrity.

The Moa was added to Elixir X as a much weaker for of the 10s Signet Mesmer had back then. Still it was rare to even see a engineer pick Elixir X instead of Crate (and then Stealth Gyros when Scrapper came around) due it not being a reliable elite skill.

And comparing the Mesmer Portal and Phantasms to Sand Swell and the Renegade Warband is just low... Mesmer portal have 5000 range oposed to the 900 range Sand swell. HOW CAN YOU EVEN COMPARE THAT? And the renegade skills are meant to be a long lasting AoE ground. I'm sure the NPCs were added to add some counter play to them (a weakness Renegade don't even need since it sucks tbh).

[Unholy Pillager.3791]

> @Ithilwen.1529 said:

>

> There's this weird idea that if one loses to a Mesmer then the class must be OP. The reality is that the class has suffered through years of being "trash tier." In addition every "good" trick in the Mesmer's quiver has been given away. Resistance, Alacrity, Portal, Moa, Confusion even Phantasms... all given away in an effort to limit Mesmers.

> I return the "advice" I have so often been given: "Learn to play."

 

Resistance was never mesmer's in the first place. It was for revenants because they had little to no cleanse. Nobody else gets a mesmer-style (i.e. cross the entire map instantly) portal. Scourge port is like 900 range or something, which means that it cannot be used in place of mesmer portal. Alacrity being given away is no different than resistance and fear being no longer exclusively reventant and necromancer only, respectively. Nobody else gets phantasms (seriously, where did you get that idea?), confusion was never mesmer only (off the top of my head, engineers have had it on pry bar since launch, and rangers have had reef drake since well before HoT). There is not, despite your ravings, some sinister conspiracy against mesmers. Giving mesmer toys away isn't some unprecedented thing; every profession has had mecahnics like that given to other professions. Hell, ranger pets were given away as a rune effect (superior rune of the pirate). That would be like having runes that make and shatter clones, for the record, something which does not exist. Mesmers have far less room to complain than certain other professions (ranger being a noteworthy example).

[musu.9205]

> @Chaith.8256 said:

> > @Grebcol.5984 said:

> > The Balance is a joke right now

> >

> > 

> >

>

> > @Ithilwen.1529 said:

> > The reality is that the class has suffered through years of being "trash tier."

>

> There was never a trash tier Mesmer, only trash tier players. Mesmer was optional until 2015 but still represented in every major competition, pre-HoT too

 

i won't say mes was trash tier , but pre spec rework before hot , only few played mesmer in EU teams ,for a longest time mesmer got destroyed by thief (both d/p and s/d ) so easily that helesth needs a thief to babysit him . and it was portal which carried too hard (power shatter wasn't strong 1v1 in most meta it was good to spike bunker since boon removal and HS for sustain dmg) don't forge that portal was neutralized by cele meta .and TCG lost tournament vs team without mesmer . in the worst time helesth was pretty much the only mes that did something useful to team hence his claim "mes isn't viable , helseth is ". even players like Supcutie are forced to play spirit ranger.

and it is all talking about top teams which can make most use of portal .It is safe to say that rest of mesmer were struggling (at best). the representation really means little for the mesmer balance .

but the person you replied to is ithilwen who defended bunker chrono ,pu and clone death trait (which isn't even useful in any meta builds) lol , so whatever he believed wasn't reality anyway .

[ZhouX.8742]

> @Elxdark.9702 said:

> holo just need a nerf on the might stacking potential, they do a lot of damage mostly because they can stack and maintain 25 stacks of might easily most of the time.

>

> mirage is busted, it wasn't used at all because spellbreaker deleted it and now with the nerf to sb mirage is your 1v1 king that also has the mobility of a thief.

 

Except mirage beats spellbreaker on point before the patch... Kronos played some of the best warriors in game on point duels and won all of them. Condi mirage has always been good... Just overshadowed because people like spellbreaker/scourge over it.

 

Holosmith can be countered many ways and serves such a specific role in PvP it would be hard to nerf them honestly , they do damage BECAUSE of their might - if you take away the might , then you leave them with no incentive on going into heat other than to get stability - which destroys the whole purpose of PF. This is partly why boon stripping destroys holo since it takes away their damage pressure.

 

It's a high reward high risk spec but since they toned down Spellbreaker you can see them performing better just because of that.

[Brandon.8294]

> @Ithilwen.1529 said:

>

> There's this weird idea that if one loses to a Mesmer then the class must be OP. The reality is that the class has suffered through years of being "trash tier." In addition every "good" trick in the Mesmer's quiver has been given away. Resistance, Alacrity, Portal, Moa, Confusion even Phantasms... all given away in an effort to limit Mesmers.

> I return the "advice" I have so often been given: "Learn to play."

 

You're so insightful. You must be so good at this game.

[Ithilwen.1529]

> @"Unholy Pillager.3791" said:

> > @Ithilwen.1529 said:

> >

> > There's this weird idea that if one loses to a Mesmer then the class must be OP. The reality is that the class has suffered through years of being "trash tier." In addition every "good" trick in the Mesmer's quiver has been given away. Resistance, Alacrity, Portal, Moa, Confusion even Phantasms... all given away in an effort to limit Mesmers.

> > I return the "advice" I have so often been given: "Learn to play."

>

> Resistance was never mesmer's in the first place. It was for revenants because they had little to no cleanse. Nobody else gets a mesmer-style (i.e. cross the entire map instantly) portal. Scourge port is like 900 range or something, which means that it cannot be used in place of mesmer portal. Alacrity being given away is no different than resistance and fear being no longer exclusively reventant and necromancer only, respectively. Nobody else gets phantasms (seriously, where did you get that idea?), confusion was never mesmer only (off the top of my head, engineers have had it on pry bar since launch, and rangers have had reef drake since well before HoT). There is not, despite your ravings, some sinister conspiracy against mesmers. Giving mesmer toys away isn't some unprecedented thing; every profession has had mecahnics like that given to other professions. Hell, ranger pets were given away as a rune effect (superior rune of the pirate). That would be like having runes that make and shatter clones, for the record, something which does not exist. Mesmers have far less room to complain than certain other professions (ranger being a noteworthy exam

 

Thieve's guild is the thief equivalent of Phantasms.. *and they attack significantly better too.*

 

**Yes, resistance came out with Mesmer in HoT.** You can trait Temporal Enchanter to use it with glamour magic. This was heavily touted at the time. Sadly, Glamours are second tier at best in pvp.

 

Moa on Mesmer, once our signature move, has not only been given to Engi.. but it has been nerfed so hard on Mesmer that it is most commonly used by engineers from what I've seen.

 

Sand Swell has half the cool down of Portal and it converts boons to torment.

 

As to Mesmers not having room to complain.. constant heavy nerfs.. close to 3 years of being acknowledged trash tier after the big glamour nerf.

 

*I got called a cheat for playing "mirage" the other day while I was playing a core Mesmer.* There is a carefully supported mythology that Mesmer is somehow OP.

[Unholy Pillager.3791]

> @Ithilwen.1529 said:

> > @"Unholy Pillager.3791" said:

> > > @Ithilwen.1529 said:

> > >

> > > There's this weird idea that if one loses to a Mesmer then the class must be OP. The reality is that the class has suffered through years of being "trash tier." In addition every "good" trick in the Mesmer's quiver has been given away. Resistance, Alacrity, Portal, Moa, Confusion even Phantasms... all given away in an effort to limit Mesmers.

> > > I return the "advice" I have so often been given: "Learn to play."

> >

> > Resistance was never mesmer's in the first place. It was for revenants because they had little to no cleanse. Nobody else gets a mesmer-style (i.e. cross the entire map instantly) portal. Scourge port is like 900 range or something, which means that it cannot be used in place of mesmer portal. Alacrity being given away is no different than resistance and fear being no longer exclusively reventant and necromancer only, respectively. Nobody else gets phantasms (seriously, where did you get that idea?), confusion was never mesmer only (off the top of my head, engineers have had it on pry bar since launch, and rangers have had reef drake since well before HoT). There is not, despite your ravings, some sinister conspiracy against mesmers. Giving mesmer toys away isn't some unprecedented thing; every profession has had mecahnics like that given to other professions. Hell, ranger pets were given away as a rune effect (superior rune of the pirate). That would be like having runes that make and shatter clones, for the record, something which does not exist. Mesmers have far less room to complain than certain other professions (ranger being a noteworthy exam

>

> Thieve's guild is the thief equivalent of Phantasms.. *and they attack significantly better too.*

 

30 seconds out of 180. It's an elite skill. And that's still nothing compared to rune of the pirate, plus it's not exactly a new thing; thieves have always had that.

 

>

> **Yes, resistance came out with Mesmer in HoT.** You can trait Temporal Enchanter to use it with glamour magic. This was heavily touted at the time. Sadly, Glamours are second tier at best in pvp.

 

Are you seriously deluded enough to think that resistance should be mesmer only? When warriors got resistance on healing signet at the same time, and revenants got it as soon as they came out to offset their lack of cleanse?

 

>

> Moa on Mesmer, once our signature move, has not only been given to Engi.. but it has been nerfed so hard on Mesmer that it is most commonly used by engineers from what I've seen.

 

I've seen it used more on chronomancer, personally. Scrappers usually use stealth gyro, holosmiths don't have moa at all, and nobody really plays core engineer anymore in PvP.

 

>

> Sand Swell has half the cool down of Portal and it converts boons to torment.

 

It also has _less than one fifth of the range_. You can barely move from one side of a point to the other; it _cannot_ fill portal's role.

 

>

> As to Mesmers not having room to complain.. constant heavy nerfs.. close to 3 years of being acknowledged trash tier after the big glamour nerf.

>

> *I got called a cheat for playing "mirage" the other day while I was playing a core Mesmer.* There is a carefully supported mythology that Mesmer is somehow OP.

 

...and rangers were in the meta for pretty much the first time ever only after HoT came out. Mirage is among the strongest specs in the game; currently acknowledged to be better than any engineer, elementalist, revenant, thief, or ranger spec.

 

Why should I feel any sympathy for you, when you intentionally play poor quality builds then whine about your profession needing buffs? Mesmer doesn't need buffs; _you need to use better builds_. The profession is just fine, your real problem is staring back at you in the mirror.

[Ithilwen.1529]

> @"Unholy Pillager.3791" said:

 

> Why should I feel any sympathy for you, when you intentionally play poor quality builds then whine about your profession needing buffs? Mesmer doesn't need buffs; _you need to use better builds_. The profession is just fine, your real problem is staring back at you in the mirror.

 

I spoke of Thieves' Guild to make the point that even Phantasms are not truly unique to Mesmer. I could have mentioned others.

 

When Chronomancer was introduced, one of the specialization perks was resistance if memory serves. *Yes, I do think that each profession ought to have something unique. In the case of Mesmer, My class brings nothing to the table that another class cannot replicate to some extent.* Resistance was shared out and severely nerfed on Mesmer because it was allegedly OP. Then Warrior got resistance in spades.

 

Speaking of Warrior, The punishment mechanic of Clone Death was removed. A dev recently said, in my presence, that it "created a toxic environment." Yet, SB Full Counter is essentially the same effect. You get punished for auto attacking or mindlessly pounding away.

 

Portal really has two roles. If you watch some of the early videos and read the pre release book, you'll notice that ANET promoted it as a longer range Blink. Set down two portals and cycle between them as an evasion tactic. *Now, I have never in 5 years had a team coordinate with me and use a portal to team advantage.* So that role is largely illusory. **Sand swell actually does a significantly better job as an evasion. It also inflicts conditions as it does. Again, it's on half the cool down.**

 

Your comment on Rangers is inaccurate. Petting Zoo Ranger, Machine gun Longbow ranger, Spirit ranger.

 

I dispute your comment on Mirage. The specialization is close to reasonable as a PvP spec. Bugs aside, it probably punches a bit under it's weight. We'll see when the damage bug is fixed. **That's where we come back to the point of this thread. Mesmer has been stripped of literally every unique aspect. It doesn't need to be underpowered in addition.**

 

I play a build I like. This is a game for pleasure. If I wanted absolute competition I'd play a video game with fixed classes. **What separates GW2 from hundreds of other games is that the player can make choices rather than being slotted to one possible build.** Remove that and GW2 would lose much of it's appeal.

 

 

~edit~ It could also be argued that Sand Swell is equivalent to the Mirage elite, Jaunt.

 

[Chaith.8256]

 

> I spoke of Thieves' Guild to make the point that even Phantasms are not truly unique to Mesmer. I could have mentioned others.

>

> When Chronomancer was introduced, one of the specialization perks was resistance if memory serves. *Yes, I do think that each profession ought to have something unique. In the case of Mesmer, My class brings nothing to the table that another class cannot replicate to some extent.* Resistance was shared out and severely nerfed on Mesmer because it was allegedly OP. Then Warrior got resistance in spades.

 

Confusion, A.I, (Phantasms), resistance, Mesmer did not do these before other professions.. They're more of a game wide mechanic. You're digging a 2km deep hole searching for reasons why the entire Mesmer profession is obsolete but if you just resurfaced once and a while you'd see it's been in a must have spot since 2015.

 

[Jeknar.6184]

Jokes aside, I think we are arguing with a Delusioned Mesmer.

[Cynz.9437]

I don't think Holo is that broken (in big picture of things), mirage is miles stronger, imo. Should they be nerfed? Well anyone who knows me, knows i would love everything gets nerfed that was added with HoT/PoF. EQUIVALENTLY.

[Forgotten by Jana.7819]

People anet doesn't care about what you say , tell me when they did anything about what actual players said when ? We should learn by now . They just dont care .

[Cynz.9437]

> @"Forgotten by Jana.7819" said:

> People anet doesn't care about what you say , tell me when they did anything about what actual players said when ? We should learn by now . They just dont care .

 

Actually they do. When some low ranked guard was crying about aegis being broken by backstab, Anet went and added CD on **ALL** stealth attacks for thieves and effectively CD on AA as well, for "good measure".

[Loop.8106]

> @Cynz.9437 said:

> > @"Forgotten by Jana.7819" said:

> > People anet doesn't care about what you say , tell me when they did anything about what actual players said when ? We should learn by now . They just dont care .

>

> Actually they do. When some low ranked guard was crying about aegis being broken by backstab, Anet went and added CD on **ALL** stealth attacks for thieves and effectively CD on AA as well, for "good measure".

 

And added an unblockable aspect to basilisk Vernon at the same time to counteract aegis. The issue was not the aegis. Get your facts straight son.

 

The reasoning for the CD was so that it couldn't be spammed vs stealthed targets.

[atreyu.9624]

You know what? I would rather see any class be op, any class but goddamnit Houdini wannabes and their bullshit purple stuff.

[Razor.6392]

> @Loop.8106 said:

> > @Cynz.9437 said:

> > > @"Forgotten by Jana.7819" said:

> > > People anet doesn't care about what you say , tell me when they did anything about what actual players said when ? We should learn by now . They just dont care .

> >

> > Actually they do. When some low ranked guard was crying about aegis being broken by backstab, Anet went and added CD on **ALL** stealth attacks for thieves and effectively CD on AA as well, for "good measure".

>

> And added an unblockable aspect to basilisk Vernon at the same time to counteract aegis. The issue was not the aegis. Get your facts straight son.

>

> The reasoning for the CD was so that it couldn't be spammed vs stealthed targets.

 

...That was not in the same patch

[Ithilwen.1529]

> @atreyu.9624 said:

> You know what? I would rather see any class be op, any class but kitten Houdini wannabes and their kitten purple stuff.

 

There's honesty for you.