Some constructive feedback about Unhindered Combatant change.

[Cynz.9437]

> @Zacchary.6183 said:

> > @Cynz.9437 said:

> > > > @Cynz.9437 said:

> > > > > @Zacchary.6183 said:

> > > > > > @AegisRunestone.8672 said:

> > > > > > @"Karl McLain.5604"

> > > > > > First, I'm grateful you responded to my post. I'm glad to hear that the team is at least reading these thoughts.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > As for question 1, because I don't play PvP or WvW often enough to understand the aspects of "counter-play," I'm going to assume, yes, this was for competitive reasons, which leads me to my next point:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > *I am very disappointed with the answer to question 2.* I see you have that rule, but I have counter to it; many traits and abilities, on their tooltips state: "This trait/ability is different per game mode." Yet, you refuse to split the trait due to functionality and due to preventing confusion, correct? The problem is, there's a bug when Daredevils and Trickery thieves dismount in any way shape or form as I linked in my Opening Post. Basically, I have only two endurance bars if I'm knocked off my mount, that's two dodges. The mob hits me with one of the three conditions: I have a choice--dodge and be down to one dodge for four seconds while fighting, or try to kite and survive. In high-end content, the latter choice usually ends in death. So, PvE Daredevils are already at a disadvantage due to a bug/functionality with mounts.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > With PvP and WvW, this isn't an issue because there are no mounts in those modes. Thus, PvE Daredevils are being punished for the sake of PvP and WvW balance. That is not right, nor proper balancing. The trait *should* be split via modes.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > And yes, while I was typing this, there was a patch, and I went in and tested my Daredevil, who also specs in Trickery; mounted, dismounted, had 2 endurance bars and 3 empty initiative slots. By negating the ability for a Daredevil to have 3 dodges via dismounting, you're crippling the PvE playzone. This is why I recommended removing the debuff from the trait.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Will the bug be fixed? I don't know. I don't expect it to as there are bugs that have been in the game for years and were never fixed. Even if you do fix the bug, I still recommend splitting the trait and noting that it is different per game mode on the tooltip. If a PvE player gets confused why they are getting Exhaustion in PvP, then it lies on them **not the dev team** to have read the traits properly.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Second, this is a Grandmaster Trait as others have pointed out. The Daredevil is being penalized for using the trait as specified. I have yet to see a trait on any class that penalizes them for speccing it, therefore why Daredevils singled out?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The point of Balance, if I've learned anything from playing Warcraft II, Starcraft, Warcraft III, Starcraft II, and WoW, is to make all parts of the game **equal and fair, but granting players different playstyles at which are all in the same playing field.** MMOs are very complex and much more difficult to balance, but from everything I've seen, traits/talents/etc. **never penalize the race/class being played.** In other words, the Unhindered Combatant nerf is not proper balance.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Third, *I am extremely disappointed by the fact my suggestions were ignored.* Instead, Karl, you have maintained you and the dev team will "watch Exhaustion's interactions with Unhindered Combatant and make adjustments as necessary." I feel like the devs are out of touch with the community. Necros have been bottom of the barrel since 2012, and they gained some buffs, a step in the right direction, but it seems it wasn't quite enough. This wouldn't be a big problem if we have to wait three months due to the PvP seasons to get balance patches. To be blunt, that is unfair to the community. We need patches not three months, not monthly, but, at the very most, bi-monthly. There's more to Guild Wars 2 than PvP leagues.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > There's also a massive lack of communication between the devs and the players. From what I've learned in life, communication is **necessary for solving problems.** If you don't communicate with us often enough, we cannot have a good solution, or even a solution at all.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Both the forums and reddit were livid when this patch change came out, the only reason you didn't see it is because of the Mount License controversy was much more explosive. But it happened. This is a major sign of how out of tune the devs are with the community; they don't listen. If something explodes, they hide and wait until it blows over. This happened with the NPE back in 2014. I became too complacent, but I'm still heavily against the gating of skills, and Personal Story which occurred with the NPE. Gaile, those three years ago said, that complaints about the NPE were the same person saying the same thing for the seventeenth time.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I countered her, as another player dissatisfied with the NPE by saying "sorry, to burst your bubble, but it isn't the same person. You need to learn to listen to feedback." The dev team still doesn't after 3 years. I would at least like to hear your thoughts on my suggestions and any others people provide. Then, I would begin to have even an inkling of belief that Anet actually listens.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Now, back to the trait; you felt Unhindered Combatant was too strong, and because it penalizes the daredevil for using it--a Grandmaster Trait even--I feel you took the wrong approach to balance it.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > In fact, my stance has always been "nerf sparingly, buff often." Nerfing anything into the ground makes something not fun to play. Nerfs are required at points, but if you continue to nerf things into the ground, then everyone will have an unplayable unenjoyable game. So, why not instead of nerfing Unhindered Combatant, giving a buff to the other classes to grant them a "counter-play" to this Grandmaster Trait instead of having a Trait penalize its own class?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I'm beginning to believe other players when they say "they nerf X trait to get us to play something else" because it looks that way, and your actions have not proven otherwise. Live by your manifesto: "play your way," not "play our way."

> > > > >

> > > > > Yes, but then if they don't do that, build diversity goes out the window especially when all anyone plays and will play is d/p. So if the real purpose was for players to play deadeye more, then good on them. The d/p meta needs to die so everything else can get balanced properly.

> > > >

> > > > You still assume they would balance anything if DP dies? Omg. Have you not learned ANYTHING from Anet balancing yet?

> > >

> > > If everyone keeps playing d/p and d/p keeps killing people, those people will kitten and anet will nerf based on the kitten. Yes, I learned a lot from anet balancing. :P

> > > And to answer your first question, yes I do. A vast majority of nerfs have been directed towards d/x and active defenses. The weaponset currently works on nothing but bads and squishies. The only thing that makes it popular is the autoattack damage and it's utilities, but otherwise it is a bad weaponset. And at this point, I don't think anything other than making every other set OP will get people off d/p simply because it has not changed for years and advocates are rabidly protective of it.

> > >

> > > On top of that, anet doesn't have the metrics to determine the state of other weaponsets because everyone plays d/p.

> >

> > D/P wasn't killing anyone in s1/s2. Your point is moot.

>

> Yet people still kitten about it and anet still nerfed it.

 

People complained about staff and dodges. Thief dodge capability and anything that enhances it got nerfed way more since HoT launch (i am sure, s/d thieves can sing about it). Why are non d/p thieves so obsessed with ruining set for other players is beyond me. We are hardly viable (if at all) atm in pvp, why do you want to delete the prof from pvp so badly? I personally do not believe that effectively deleting d/p would change anything (see s1/s2 as example) because the whole class balance is based on cries of people that don't even play the class. And those cries are usually about 1. dodge 2. stealth 3. high damage and not d/p in itself. And all those aspects will continue get hit to distract (and calm) masses from main problem of the game. Namely absurd level of powercreep.

Every spell nowadays is so overloaded, nearly instant, has short Cds, is AoE etc. Combat turned from controlled timing of the spells, resource management etc. to absolute madness and huge mess. I believe power d/d, p/p etc. would be way more viable if Anet actually pursued their old balancing politics from years ago (rewards vs effort) instead of stuffing every spell with everything possible for the sake of sales, like they do now.

For example, UC change does not piss me off as much as the fact that only thief elite got such treatment when every class should have gotten it.

[Jinks.2057]

I see Karl ran away from this thread never to return again.

 

I dunno could be the fact you can't defend providing counter play to UC in light of Scourges, Mirages, and Firebrands running amok now huh?

 

Feels like S1-S2 again tbh. I'll continue sitting out.

[Jana.6831]

> @Cynz.9437 said:

> Why are non d/p thieves so obsessed with ruining set for other players is beyond me. We are hardly viable (if at all) atm in pvp, why do you want to delete the prof from pvp so badly? I personally do not believe that effectively deleting d/p would change anything (see s1/s2 as example) because the whole class balance is based on cries of people that don't even play the class.

 

I tried to explain it to you a lot of times, and I'll try again: D/P as a set is too strong. It's that strong that it was the only set that survived after HoT, although DrD isn't even designed for D/P. D/P has got interrupts at will, they have ports at will and they've got stealth/blind at will. No other set has that. The cries to nerf thief are in fact cries to nerf D/P and that has almost always been the case. And thief, and even D/P, would be better had anet a close look at it and would understand that all changes since incl. the June 23th 2015 patch only favoured D/P. (With some exceptions, granted). D/P was the only set that could still sustain because it is incredibly strong. I don't hate D/P, nor do I want D/P to be gone, but it killed diversity regarding sets and playstyles for thief. If D/P were nerfed some of the nerfs regarding thief could be made undonw and you'd probably see other sets again (no idea if S/D is still a thing and how often rifle is played). That of course means that the massive clusterkitten of a mess that this game has become after the traitmerge and even more so after HoT has to be balanced as well.

The above is why I said that anet don't understand thief - they have absolutely no idea of the class nor what they're doing (with some recent exceptions, minus the cis nerf which made me quit the game).

[Luranni.9470]

I had little will to play GW2 due to the change of direction the game took and the apparent desire to make it as dumb as possible.

 

I still enjoyed a little lolaboot in WvW but unfortunately it's the same as after HoT - now PoF and this utterly nonsensical round of class changes have left me with zero will to play.

 

And here's why.... Not only (as stated several times by others) do the devs show very little understanding of how Thief (and other classes) perform in different gamemodes, but they are sooooooooooooooo slow and arrogant in their responses and "fixes" that when they do the usual and break something you know it's going to be -months- before any meaningful changes happen.

 

And guess what, when the changes finally arrive they are 70% tooltip fixes (seriously can you stop lumping those in with class balance to pad it out and post these on their own notes section instead) and what little adjustments actually happen generally make WvW worse, not better.

 

From what I can understand thieves are now the only class who's entire "dodge-specialist elite" can be effectively turned off. It's reveal all over again, rather than actually fixing stealth to be more reasonable, it gets handed out like candy to more classes and runes and then lolreveal buttons on top. Sure ok...

 

I'd just like to understand why Acro (3 dodges already, thankyouverymuch) was nerfed to give us Daredevil (the dodge specialist, lol), then Daredevil was nerfed to give us what, exactly? It's like "Don't worry about the acro nerf! Here's your epic Dodge Elite! Oh by the way... you are the only class whose dodges can be turned off for 4 seconds by condi spam, and we are buffing condi spam." Um.. thanks?

 

I did do some theorycrafting and attempted to play some WvW with Daredevil but... Lotus dodge is condi-filth so no thanks, I can't use Bound coz the stutter at the end and the out-of-sync animation/sound effect just drive me bonkers and UC is now a daft choice with all the casual cripple/immob/chill flying around.

 

As another poster said, I'm all for giving a HUGE nerf to ALL classes to get the powercreep back under control and just flat-out get rid of broken gimmick mechanics that do nothing but cause lag and boredom, but this specific change in a vacuum is just baffling and rude.

 

Thusly I will continue to be "meh" about GW2. Dare I say, I will MEH with extreme prejudice :P.

 

Thanks for reading, here's some

.

[Zacchary.6183]

> @Cynz.9437 said:

> > @Zacchary.6183 said:

> > > @Cynz.9437 said:

> > > > > @Cynz.9437 said:

> > > > > > @Zacchary.6183 said:

> > > > > > > @AegisRunestone.8672 said:

> > > > > > > @"Karl McLain.5604"

> > > > > > > First, I'm grateful you responded to my post. I'm glad to hear that the team is at least reading these thoughts.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > As for question 1, because I don't play PvP or WvW often enough to understand the aspects of "counter-play," I'm going to assume, yes, this was for competitive reasons, which leads me to my next point:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > *I am very disappointed with the answer to question 2.* I see you have that rule, but I have counter to it; many traits and abilities, on their tooltips state: "This trait/ability is different per game mode." Yet, you refuse to split the trait due to functionality and due to preventing confusion, correct? The problem is, there's a bug when Daredevils and Trickery thieves dismount in any way shape or form as I linked in my Opening Post. Basically, I have only two endurance bars if I'm knocked off my mount, that's two dodges. The mob hits me with one of the three conditions: I have a choice--dodge and be down to one dodge for four seconds while fighting, or try to kite and survive. In high-end content, the latter choice usually ends in death. So, PvE Daredevils are already at a disadvantage due to a bug/functionality with mounts.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > With PvP and WvW, this isn't an issue because there are no mounts in those modes. Thus, PvE Daredevils are being punished for the sake of PvP and WvW balance. That is not right, nor proper balancing. The trait *should* be split via modes.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > And yes, while I was typing this, there was a patch, and I went in and tested my Daredevil, who also specs in Trickery; mounted, dismounted, had 2 endurance bars and 3 empty initiative slots. By negating the ability for a Daredevil to have 3 dodges via dismounting, you're crippling the PvE playzone. This is why I recommended removing the debuff from the trait.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Will the bug be fixed? I don't know. I don't expect it to as there are bugs that have been in the game for years and were never fixed. Even if you do fix the bug, I still recommend splitting the trait and noting that it is different per game mode on the tooltip. If a PvE player gets confused why they are getting Exhaustion in PvP, then it lies on them **not the dev team** to have read the traits properly.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Second, this is a Grandmaster Trait as others have pointed out. The Daredevil is being penalized for using the trait as specified. I have yet to see a trait on any class that penalizes them for speccing it, therefore why Daredevils singled out?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > The point of Balance, if I've learned anything from playing Warcraft II, Starcraft, Warcraft III, Starcraft II, and WoW, is to make all parts of the game **equal and fair, but granting players different playstyles at which are all in the same playing field.** MMOs are very complex and much more difficult to balance, but from everything I've seen, traits/talents/etc. **never penalize the race/class being played.** In other words, the Unhindered Combatant nerf is not proper balance.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Third, *I am extremely disappointed by the fact my suggestions were ignored.* Instead, Karl, you have maintained you and the dev team will "watch Exhaustion's interactions with Unhindered Combatant and make adjustments as necessary." I feel like the devs are out of touch with the community. Necros have been bottom of the barrel since 2012, and they gained some buffs, a step in the right direction, but it seems it wasn't quite enough. This wouldn't be a big problem if we have to wait three months due to the PvP seasons to get balance patches. To be blunt, that is unfair to the community. We need patches not three months, not monthly, but, at the very most, bi-monthly. There's more to Guild Wars 2 than PvP leagues.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > There's also a massive lack of communication between the devs and the players. From what I've learned in life, communication is **necessary for solving problems.** If you don't communicate with us often enough, we cannot have a good solution, or even a solution at all.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Both the forums and reddit were livid when this patch change came out, the only reason you didn't see it is because of the Mount License controversy was much more explosive. But it happened. This is a major sign of how out of tune the devs are with the community; they don't listen. If something explodes, they hide and wait until it blows over. This happened with the NPE back in 2014. I became too complacent, but I'm still heavily against the gating of skills, and Personal Story which occurred with the NPE. Gaile, those three years ago said, that complaints about the NPE were the same person saying the same thing for the seventeenth time.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I countered her, as another player dissatisfied with the NPE by saying "sorry, to burst your bubble, but it isn't the same person. You need to learn to listen to feedback." The dev team still doesn't after 3 years. I would at least like to hear your thoughts on my suggestions and any others people provide. Then, I would begin to have even an inkling of belief that Anet actually listens.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Now, back to the trait; you felt Unhindered Combatant was too strong, and because it penalizes the daredevil for using it--a Grandmaster Trait even--I feel you took the wrong approach to balance it.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > In fact, my stance has always been "nerf sparingly, buff often." Nerfing anything into the ground makes something not fun to play. Nerfs are required at points, but if you continue to nerf things into the ground, then everyone will have an unplayable unenjoyable game. So, why not instead of nerfing Unhindered Combatant, giving a buff to the other classes to grant them a "counter-play" to this Grandmaster Trait instead of having a Trait penalize its own class?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I'm beginning to believe other players when they say "they nerf X trait to get us to play something else" because it looks that way, and your actions have not proven otherwise. Live by your manifesto: "play your way," not "play our way."

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Yes, but then if they don't do that, build diversity goes out the window especially when all anyone plays and will play is d/p. So if the real purpose was for players to play deadeye more, then good on them. The d/p meta needs to die so everything else can get balanced properly.

> > > > >

> > > > > You still assume they would balance anything if DP dies? Omg. Have you not learned ANYTHING from Anet balancing yet?

> > > >

> > > > If everyone keeps playing d/p and d/p keeps killing people, those people will kitten and anet will nerf based on the kitten. Yes, I learned a lot from anet balancing. :P

> > > > And to answer your first question, yes I do. A vast majority of nerfs have been directed towards d/x and active defenses. The weaponset currently works on nothing but bads and squishies. The only thing that makes it popular is the autoattack damage and it's utilities, but otherwise it is a bad weaponset. And at this point, I don't think anything other than making every other set OP will get people off d/p simply because it has not changed for years and advocates are rabidly protective of it.

> > > >

> > > > On top of that, anet doesn't have the metrics to determine the state of other weaponsets because everyone plays d/p.

> > >

> > > D/P wasn't killing anyone in s1/s2. Your point is moot.

> >

> > Yet people still kitten about it and anet still nerfed it.

>

> People complained about staff and dodges. Thief dodge capability and anything that enhances it got nerfed way more since HoT launch (i am sure, s/d thieves can sing about it). Why are non d/p thieves so obsessed with ruining set for other players is beyond me. We are hardly viable (if at all) atm in pvp, why do you want to delete the prof from pvp so badly? I personally do not believe that effectively deleting d/p would change anything (see s1/s2 as example) because the whole class balance is based on cries of people that don't even play the class. And those cries are usually about 1. dodge 2. stealth 3. high damage and not d/p in itself. And all those aspects will continue get hit to distract (and calm) masses from main problem of the game. Namely absurd level of powercreep.

> Every spell nowadays is so overloaded, nearly instant, has short Cds, is AoE etc. Combat turned from controlled timing of the spells, resource management etc. to absolute madness and huge mess. I believe power d/d, p/p etc. would be way more viable if Anet actually pursued their old balancing politics from years ago (rewards vs effort) instead of stuffing every spell with everything possible for the sake of sales, like they do now.

> For example, UC change does not kitten me off as much as the fact that only thief elite got such treatment when every class should have gotten it.

 

It's simple. So long as most players keep playing the same thing all the time, the profession will never have any build diversity.

[Vornollo.5182]

Nerfing D/P will just leave us without viable options for PvP and WvW.

To think that after such nerfs, other weapon sets would get buffed to a viable status is naïve at best.

They have been buffing other weapons, actually (largely S/x and Acro) but simply to no real effect. Not because they're terrible by design, but largely (not entirely, mind you!) because with the powercreep affecting the entire game, they have no place against other professions /classes/builds.

Sorry to burst your bubbles, but the fault isn't with D/P, it's with the entire direction that this game took.

 

Sorry for going off-topic. This thread is about Unhindered Combatant, nothing else. Maybe make a new thread if you wish to circlejerk about weapons.

[DeceiverX.8361]

> @"Karl McLain.5604" said:

> _1) What was the reasoning behind the change to Unhindered Combatant?_

> **"One important balance change in this update is the change to Unhindered Combatant. While thieves, and by extension daredevils, are intended to be slippery combatants, the escape potential for this trait was a little too high."**

> Unhindered Combatant has long been dominant in multiple game-types. It represents a longer distance movement option, condition-break, and swiftness generator. We like these things.

> The issue, however, is that there is almost no 'counter' play to the functionality... in that neither players nor designers have a way to whittle down the thief's defensive capabilities short of one-shotting them in a time where there are no evade frames occurring. We want the thief to remain incredibly mobile, but need to introduce some soft-counters so that there are methods to hinder the super-defensive nature of UC builds. We'll keep watch of Exhaustion's interactions with Unhindered Combatant and will adjust as necessary.

>

> _2) If it was meant for competitive changes, why do PvE Daredevils have to take the blow, too?_

> First off: As a rule we don't split skill and trait functionality changes ("functionality" being the keyword here). There are some things that we are okay with splitting such as damage, condition duration/stacks, resource cost, etc. However we don't want to make skills which apply different buffs or have different cast times or number of hits based on game mode. This rule is in place to preserve skill cohesion and prevent confusion when switching game modes. It's not a rule that we plan on changing.

>

> Secondarily: Its condition-removal is built-in and is inseparable from the dodge-mechanic so long as you have the trait equipped. It's feasibly possible to 'remove' the trait and return you to a 'normal' dodge, but consistency is also important in that your dodge button should pretty much always do the same thing.

>

> -SnB

 

And was this realization made before or after the release of a long-range-OHKO-teleport-stealth-sniper concept for the DE? Or the concept behind DH with massive damage in melee from traps and at range from the bow with range/projectile hate and damage immunities before it got nerfed massively? Or scrapper's entire meta trait setup just being entirely passive bonuses? Because "no-counterplay" is quite literally the entire premise of a huge number of the ideas that have recurred since the first set of elites.

 

More broadly, how about the massive immunity-and-cc-lock spam-fest we have?

 

Or the skill-less condi meta we have in the PvP formats where nobody can cleanse the condi bombs fast enough to hope to deal enough damage back to get a kill?

 

I respect keeping consistency in functionality - in fact, I'm against the entire notion of split balance because it makes balancing so much more difficult given the sheer number of things to then balance, and more confusing for players because their abilities can potentially differ so much when they step into a new format, but if there's something so problematic as to the point where it either totally dominates play or is useless not in its dominant state, it means that somewhere along the lines, the concepts behind the functionality of something failed; either the dominant ability/thing is a necessary consequence of some other weak area of design, or it is poorly-designed itself. I've called the Daredevil - mostly from UC and staff - "spammy" since it launched. The spec does definitely over-perform and definitely lacks a clear weakness as the core thief does. The problem is that nothing else in the game seems to have any defined weaknesses anymore. At least none substantial enough to beat via skilled play, rather than just crunching numbers while rotating abilities of some optimal build.

 

Years ago, a post was made about targeting "low-hanging fruit" fixes a few months after launch. This had some people worried, but most people wrote it off as justifiable given the nature of game launches and needing time to adapt to make major changes.

 

Save a very few select abilities which seem to get reworked too much, we've only ever see these kinds of changes come. Years have gone by with the same weapons in the meta, despite nerfs. So much rides on the conceptual layer and so much of it has been ignored. The UC change is no different; it's the byproduct of major systemic flaws that quite frankly need to be addressed. Because only when those get addressed would it make sense to nerf the no-to-low-counterplay effects that are completely taking over the game at the moment. But unless major strides are made here with deliberation of weaknesses and the value of certain approaches to any given arbitrary fight to ensure a fun and diverse game-state, heavy-handed changes like these aren't warranted when people can just reroll to whatever other FoTM/OP "must-have" option is out there. This kind of change results in a no-win scenario, because it forces a reduction in diversity. There's a ton of stuff out there with just as little counterplay with just as much potency requiring just as little skill. The people left are diehards who like the concept. And diehards who like the concept and want to be competitive? Well, let's just say they start looking elsewhere for entertainment. And this obviously doesn't benefit ANet no matter how you spin it.

 

It's getting to the point where it's becoming *obvious* - not even apparent, that the state of the game is becoming too intricate to balance by metrics/numerics alone and that there exist design notions which inhibit any real beneficial changes because any such changes otherwise result in something else to break. Most of these aren't even on the numerical level, and many aren't tied to one skill or individual profession; just that the entire basis of the game's integrity is moving away from its once-solid foundation.

 

The approach to balance I've seen over the past five years is best described as a house of cards; it can be free-standing and sturdy enough to support its load, and it needs to be at its base, but it's held back because rather than being held together by cohesion and strong joints to account for some degree of imperfection, it's held together by a constant offsetting of the load onto other pieces. This is only sustainable for so long, and as it gets bigger, it's knocked down increasingly-easier by the failure of perfect placement of one card. Small failures turn into big ones as the cards pile up, and due to a lack of cohesion, there's no way to make a switch in order to keep building it bigger, short of just rebuilding the whole thing.

[Shiyo.3578]

Was pretty unfun to fight and had zero counter play.

 

Oh, Karl already said that.

[Jana.6831]

> @Vornollo.5182 said:

> Nerfing D/P will just leave us without viable options for PvP and WvW.

> To think that after such nerfs, other weapon sets would get buffed to a viable status is naïve at best.

> They have been buffing other weapons, actually (largely S/x and Acro) but simply to no real effect. Not because they're terrible by design, but largely (not entirely, mind you!) because with the powercreep affecting the entire game, they have no place against other professions /classes/builds.

> Sorry to burst your bubbles, but the fault isn't with D/P, it's with the entire direction that this game took.

>

> Sorry for going off-topic. This thread is about Unhindered Combatant, nothing else. Maybe make a new thread if you wish to kitten about weapons.

 

The recent nerfs to thief which killed other sets were forced reveal (e.g). Can D/P bypass that? Yes, it can with SS, BP, AA, interrupts. The stealth attack cooldown (e.g). Can D/P bypass that? Yes, with SS, AA, BP and interrupts. Do you get where I'm getting at? D/P can still get all the favours of being in stealth, while they don't rely on it - they have been pigeonholed into one playstyle because of the changes but can still sustain because D/P is that strong. Yet the NERF cries won't stop and the people crying that don't get that they want one set to be nerfed and not thief the class. Yet thief the class gets nerfed over and over again while D/P still remains. UC is a problem for maybe D/P and S/D, but I guess it's less of a problem for D/P and hey, we're right at the topic again. I think you're naive if you think that "other sets just have to be buffed", but alas.

[Vornollo.5182]

> @Jana.6831 said:

> > @Vornollo.5182 said:

> > Nerfing D/P will just leave us without viable options for PvP and WvW.

> > To think that after such nerfs, other weapon sets would get buffed to a viable status is naïve at best.

> > They have been buffing other weapons, actually (largely S/x and Acro) but simply to no real effect. Not because they're terrible by design, but largely (not entirely, mind you!) because with the powercreep affecting the entire game, they have no place against other professions /classes/builds.

> > Sorry to burst your bubbles, but the fault isn't with D/P, it's with the entire direction that this game took.

> >

> > Sorry for going off-topic. This thread is about Unhindered Combatant, nothing else. Maybe make a new thread if you wish to kitten about weapons.

>

> The recent nerfs to thief which killed other sets were forced reveal (e.g). Can D/P bypass that? Yes, it can with SS, BP, AA, interrupts. The stealth attack cooldown (e.g). Can D/P bypass that? Yes, with SS, AA, BP and interrupts. Do you get where I'm getting at? D/P can still get all the favours of being in stealth, while they don't rely on it - they have been pigeonholed into one playstyle because of the changes but can still sustain because D/P is that strong. Yet the NERF cries won't stop and the people crying that don't get that they want one set to be nerfed and not thief the class. Yet thief the class gets nerfed over and over again while D/P still remains. UC is a problem for maybe D/P and S/D, but I guess it's less of a problem for D/P and hey, we're right at the topic again. I think you're naive if you think that "other sets just have to be buffed", but alas.

 

Considering the history of this forum and your activity on it I don't even know why I have to ask this...

What makes you think anything would get improved, after severe nerfs to D/P? Other sets still lack either the mobility, out-of-combat stealth stacking or both, not to mention the utility that D/P offers. Marauder S/D was actually making a decent comeback prior to the nerfs to Unhindered Combatant due to the other metabuilds blocking a lot and pumping out boons like candy. So long as there wasn't an enemy thief, you could easily pull it off even in "top tier". Its unblockable burst and boonsteal gave it the required utility and along with Dash, it could actually sustain some in order to actually make use of those utilities. D/P didn't hold it back in the slightest aside of situations where stealth stacking was required. Shadow Refuge doesn't quite cut it for stealth stacking anymore, as you might've noticed.

 

Crippling one set, playstyle, option, build or whatever you want to call it, does nothing but cripple it.

It doesn't magically make other options viable. No, jt simply removes a viable option.

 

Oh and you very well know not to expect any buffs to any other weapons if D/P gets nerfed. I know, which is why I didn't even bring it up. No, if a weaponset actually has something going for it, it'll get played when it's preferable or has something else that it excels at. Such as S/D briefly did until the Dash nerf hit its sustain very hard. It simply had something to offer that D/P didn't without having to make important sacrifices which would make it bad for high tier play.

Killing D/P still won't make our other sets viable, again, don't be that naïve. You've been here long enough and should know better than that.

 

EDIT:

So right, I'm suggesting flavour to be added to other sets..? Maybe..? Not exactly... If our other sets excelled at something, like Marauder S/D does/did with unblockable burst and boonsteal, you'd see more diversity.

Taking away what D/P excels at just leaves us with D/P as yet another bland and useless option.

Still off-topic though.

D/P didn't kill the upcoming S/D situational preference, UC's nerf did. We'll sadly never know if Marauder S/D could've been considered meta and preferable in certain matchups again.

[Jinks.2057]

> @Jana.6831 said:

> > @Vornollo.5182 said:

> > Nerfing D/P will just leave us without viable options for PvP and WvW.

> > To think that after such nerfs, other weapon sets would get buffed to a viable status is naïve at best.

> > They have been buffing other weapons, actually (largely S/x and Acro) but simply to no real effect. Not because they're terrible by design, but largely (not entirely, mind you!) because with the powercreep affecting the entire game, they have no place against other professions /classes/builds.

> > Sorry to burst your bubbles, but the fault isn't with D/P, it's with the entire direction that this game took.

> >

> > Sorry for going off-topic. This thread is about Unhindered Combatant, nothing else. Maybe make a new thread if you wish to kitten about weapons.

>

> The recent nerfs to thief which killed other sets were forced reveal (e.g). Can D/P bypass that? Yes, it can with SS, BP, AA, interrupts. The stealth attack cooldown (e.g). Can D/P bypass that? Yes, with SS, AA, BP and interrupts. Do you get where I'm getting at? D/P can still get all the favours of being in stealth, while they don't rely on it - they have been pigeonholed into one playstyle because of the changes but can still sustain because D/P is that strong. Yet the NERF cries won't stop and the people crying that don't get that they want one set to be nerfed and not thief the class. Yet thief the class gets nerfed over and over again while D/P still remains. UC is a problem for maybe D/P and S/D, but I guess it's less of a problem for D/P and hey, we're right at the topic again. I think you're naive if you think that "other sets just have to be buffed", but alas.

 

which skill on DP removes reveal? I'm confused? Which skill removes the CD on 1 while stealthed? Still confused.

 

a net is not going to nerf a weaponset and buff another.

 

No what'll happen is you will now have zero viable sets.

 

D/D is a LOW skill weapon set. What makes it not viable is the power creep of the game has passed it by. Not viable does not mean higher skill floor/ceiling.

 

I'm tired of reading about D/D enthusiasts complaining about other weapon sets. Do you think the rest of the game is asking for nerfs to thieves to affect everything but d/d?

 

Fuck no they are chanting NERF THIEF.

 

I play all weapon sets that thief has. I have used D/D and had great success with it. It was mind-numbingly skilless gameplay though. Funny thing is though most of the enthusiasts can't find their 3 key or understand when to use it lol.

 

You don't goto other class forums and read this type of bullshit either. Everyone here is thieves and everyone should focus on how to make thief as a whole better/balanced....not your pet weapon sets

[Urejt.5648]

very good nerf for the game. I hope dp gets nerfed more and anet buff rifle for thief and deadeye class.

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

I doubt people would complain is dash dodge was not 450 range, but normal dodge distance instead, but at the same there is no way they could fit the speed and time of dash into a 300 range dodge as it would make the evade frames a lot less, it was doomed from the release of hot, a lot of people said back in beta that dash was too good and will be get crys. Anyway, it is sad to see this nerf like this but anet has a habit of nerfing anything randomly and not just thives.

 

Also I agree on vorn. There has been an increase of acro s/d (core) thives and more deadeye's than before but this from a wvw pov, I doubt this helps the spvp players though where this nerf shouldn't of been touched in, especially how small the nodes are.

[Turk.5460]

> @Jinks.2057 said:

> > @Jana.6831 said:

> > > @Vornollo.5182 said:

> > > Nerfing D/P will just leave us without viable options for PvP and WvW.

> > > To think that after such nerfs, other weapon sets would get buffed to a viable status is naïve at best.

> > > They have been buffing other weapons, actually (largely S/x and Acro) but simply to no real effect. Not because they're terrible by design, but largely (not entirely, mind you!) because with the powercreep affecting the entire game, they have no place against other professions /classes/builds.

> > > Sorry to burst your bubbles, but the fault isn't with D/P, it's with the entire direction that this game took.

> > >

> > > Sorry for going off-topic. This thread is about Unhindered Combatant, nothing else. Maybe make a new thread if you wish to kitten about weapons.

> >

> > The recent nerfs to thief which killed other sets were forced reveal (e.g). Can D/P bypass that? Yes, it can with SS, BP, AA, interrupts. The stealth attack cooldown (e.g). Can D/P bypass that? Yes, with SS, AA, BP and interrupts. Do you get where I'm getting at? D/P can still get all the favours of being in stealth, while they don't rely on it - they have been pigeonholed into one playstyle because of the changes but can still sustain because D/P is that strong. Yet the NERF cries won't stop and the people crying that don't get that they want one set to be nerfed and not thief the class. Yet thief the class gets nerfed over and over again while D/P still remains. UC is a problem for maybe D/P and S/D, but I guess it's less of a problem for D/P and hey, we're right at the topic again. I think you're naive if you think that "other sets just have to be buffed", but alas.

 

> Funny thing is though most of the enthusiasts can't find their 3 key or understand when to use it lol.

 

Couldn't agree more. But the ones who post on the forums are the ones who championed the Signet 1HKO Thief like they were some sort of godly players for mashing all their signets then doing by far the *easiest* Thief combo there is (CnD, Steal, Backstab). These people are in the mindset that every little thing they build for has to be for the highest possible damage, they like those numbers! Sustained medium-pressure and damage mitigation are lost concepts for them, unfortunately. It's pretty, sad tbh.

[Maugetarr.6823]

> @Jinks.2057 said:

> > @Jana.6831 said:

> > > @Vornollo.5182 said:

> > > Nerfing D/P will just leave us without viable options for PvP and WvW.

> > > To think that after such nerfs, other weapon sets would get buffed to a viable status is naïve at best.

> > > They have been buffing other weapons, actually (largely S/x and Acro) but simply to no real effect. Not because they're terrible by design, but largely (not entirely, mind you!) because with the powercreep affecting the entire game, they have no place against other professions /classes/builds.

> > > Sorry to burst your bubbles, but the fault isn't with D/P, it's with the entire direction that this game took.

> > >

> > > Sorry for going off-topic. This thread is about Unhindered Combatant, nothing else. Maybe make a new thread if you wish to kitten about weapons.

> >

> > The recent nerfs to thief which killed other sets were forced reveal (e.g). Can D/P bypass that? Yes, it can with SS, BP, AA, interrupts. The stealth attack cooldown (e.g). Can D/P bypass that? Yes, with SS, AA, BP and interrupts. Do you get where I'm getting at? D/P can still get all the favours of being in stealth, while they don't rely on it - they have been pigeonholed into one playstyle because of the changes but can still sustain because D/P is that strong. Yet the NERF cries won't stop and the people crying that don't get that they want one set to be nerfed and not thief the class. Yet thief the class gets nerfed over and over again while D/P still remains. UC is a problem for maybe D/P and S/D, but I guess it's less of a problem for D/P and hey, we're right at the topic again. I think you're naive if you think that "other sets just have to be buffed", but alas.

>

> which skill on DP removes reveal? I'm confused? Which skill removes the CD on 1 while stealthed? Still confused.

>

> a net is not going to nerf a weaponset and buff another.

>

> No what'll happen is you will now have zero viable sets.

>

> D/D is a LOW skill weapon set. What makes it not viable is the power creep of the game has passed it by. Not viable does not mean higher skill floor/ceiling.

>

> I'm tired of reading about D/D enthusiasts complaining about other weapon sets. Do you think the rest of the game is asking for nerfs to thieves to affect everything but d/d?

>

> kitten no they are chanting NERF THIEF.

>

> I play all weapon sets that thief has. I have used D/D and had great success with it. It was mind-numbingly skilless gameplay though. Funny thing is though most of the enthusiasts can't find their 3 key or understand when to use it lol.

>

> You don't goto other class forums and read this type of kitten either. Everyone here is thieves and everyone should focus on how to make thief as a whole better/balanced....not your pet weapon sets

 

Well, Condi D/D is pretty low in terms of skill level, but Power D/D isn't since it lacks the utility of other weapon sets and #3 is pretty bad power damage. I'd still like them to make D/D a skill shot similar to warrior GS#3, raising the skill floor of condi D/D and increasing the utility of power D/D.

[Jinks.2057]

> @Maugetarr.6823 said:

> > @Jinks.2057 said:

> > > @Jana.6831 said:

> > > > @Vornollo.5182 said:

> > > > Nerfing D/P will just leave us without viable options for PvP and WvW.

> > > > To think that after such nerfs, other weapon sets would get buffed to a viable status is naïve at best.

> > > > They have been buffing other weapons, actually (largely S/x and Acro) but simply to no real effect. Not because they're terrible by design, but largely (not entirely, mind you!) because with the powercreep affecting the entire game, they have no place against other professions /classes/builds.

> > > > Sorry to burst your bubbles, but the fault isn't with D/P, it's with the entire direction that this game took.

> > > >

> > > > Sorry for going off-topic. This thread is about Unhindered Combatant, nothing else. Maybe make a new thread if you wish to kitten about weapons.

> > >

> > > The recent nerfs to thief which killed other sets were forced reveal (e.g). Can D/P bypass that? Yes, it can with SS, BP, AA, interrupts. The stealth attack cooldown (e.g). Can D/P bypass that? Yes, with SS, AA, BP and interrupts. Do you get where I'm getting at? D/P can still get all the favours of being in stealth, while they don't rely on it - they have been pigeonholed into one playstyle because of the changes but can still sustain because D/P is that strong. Yet the NERF cries won't stop and the people crying that don't get that they want one set to be nerfed and not thief the class. Yet thief the class gets nerfed over and over again while D/P still remains. UC is a problem for maybe D/P and S/D, but I guess it's less of a problem for D/P and hey, we're right at the topic again. I think you're naive if you think that "other sets just have to be buffed", but alas.

> >

> > which skill on DP removes reveal? I'm confused? Which skill removes the CD on 1 while stealthed? Still confused.

> >

> > a net is not going to nerf a weaponset and buff another.

> >

> > No what'll happen is you will now have zero viable sets.

> >

> > D/D is a LOW skill weapon set. What makes it not viable is the power creep of the game has passed it by. Not viable does not mean higher skill floor/ceiling.

> >

> > I'm tired of reading about D/D enthusiasts complaining about other weapon sets. Do you think the rest of the game is asking for nerfs to thieves to affect everything but d/d?

> >

> > kitten no they are chanting NERF THIEF.

> >

> > I play all weapon sets that thief has. I have used D/D and had great success with it. It was mind-numbingly skilless gameplay though. Funny thing is though most of the enthusiasts can't find their 3 key or understand when to use it lol.

> >

> > You don't goto other class forums and read this type of kitten either. Everyone here is thieves and everyone should focus on how to make thief as a whole better/balanced....not your pet weapon sets

>

> Well, Condi D/D is pretty low in terms of skill level, but Power D/D isn't since it lacks the utility of other weapon sets and #3 is pretty bad power damage. I'd still like them to make D/D a skill shot similar to warrior GS#3, raising the skill floor of condi D/D and increasing the utility of power D/D.

 

No Power D/D is low skill as well.

[DeceiverX.8361]

> @Turk.5460 said:

> > @Jinks.2057 said:

> > > @Jana.6831 said:

> > > > @Vornollo.5182 said:

> > > > Nerfing D/P will just leave us without viable options for PvP and WvW.

> > > > To think that after such nerfs, other weapon sets would get buffed to a viable status is naïve at best.

> > > > They have been buffing other weapons, actually (largely S/x and Acro) but simply to no real effect. Not because they're terrible by design, but largely (not entirely, mind you!) because with the powercreep affecting the entire game, they have no place against other professions /classes/builds.

> > > > Sorry to burst your bubbles, but the fault isn't with D/P, it's with the entire direction that this game took.

> > > >

> > > > Sorry for going off-topic. This thread is about Unhindered Combatant, nothing else. Maybe make a new thread if you wish to kitten about weapons.

> > >

> > > The recent nerfs to thief which killed other sets were forced reveal (e.g). Can D/P bypass that? Yes, it can with SS, BP, AA, interrupts. The stealth attack cooldown (e.g). Can D/P bypass that? Yes, with SS, AA, BP and interrupts. Do you get where I'm getting at? D/P can still get all the favours of being in stealth, while they don't rely on it - they have been pigeonholed into one playstyle because of the changes but can still sustain because D/P is that strong. Yet the NERF cries won't stop and the people crying that don't get that they want one set to be nerfed and not thief the class. Yet thief the class gets nerfed over and over again while D/P still remains. UC is a problem for maybe D/P and S/D, but I guess it's less of a problem for D/P and hey, we're right at the topic again. I think you're naive if you think that "other sets just have to be buffed", but alas.

>

> > Funny thing is though most of the enthusiasts can't find their 3 key or understand when to use it lol.

>

> Couldn't agree more. But the ones who post on the forums are the ones who championed the Signet 1HKO Thief like they were some sort of godly players for mashing all their signets then doing by far the *easiest* Thief combo there is (CnD, Steal, Backstab). These people are in the mindset that every little thing they build for has to be for the highest possible damage, they like those numbers! Sustained medium-pressure and damage mitigation are lost concepts for them, unfortunately. It's pretty, sad tbh.

 

I get that this is a quip at me because let's face it: I'm pretty much the only guy that played signets for so long. Though unfortunately, DB is the skill I used fourth-most on my D/D thief when I played it, after the AA, Infil Strike/Return, and Flanking/Larcenous. Yes those are S/D skills, and I know this because I did a breakdown with keymapping history. My figure here is around 83% of my casted abilities were S/D. You could pretty much ask anyone I regularly fought and they'd tell you I spent maybe 80% of my time in S/D as a glass cannon to negate incoming hits. You can keep up the narrative about me being some kind of lolgank montage youtuber, though. As soon as it comes from a D/P player like Aikijin, of course it's skilled play instead of just having fun and being good at an otherwise weak utility weapon/skill skill setup and playing/building smart.

 

The confusion comes from people who don't play against a lot of very-skilled players that understand D/D's wekanesses that because the kit is simple, it's easy to generate wins. This works to a point. The warrior was this way leading up to HoT, and it had little presence in anything but PvE. Only after insane buffs with Berserker's release to some core skills did the class start getting into "OP" territory again. Even still, simple kits, difficult execution when up against people who know how to fight it.

 

The best example is Sindrender's D/D gameplay video. His performance was... crude. I have nothing on the guy when it comes to D/P and knowing enemy skill timers. his play was good, but nothing exceptional. He won a lot of those fights because his enemies continued to fight as though trying to out-play a D/P thief, and they suffered huge losses as a consequence. He did as well as he did in the footage, despite being against people at the way top of the boards, because nobody knew how to deal with it because nobody that high up even researches it. Drop down a tier or two and players there can stomp all over the kit because they either see it enough to warrant playing into it, or don't play a level above such that they react accordingly rather than incorrectly trying to be proactive.

 

It's funny because some of these same thieves *cough* could fairly beat people in the top 100 as soon as they equipped D/P. Some of my guildmates/practice buddies are/were top 100. They'll be first to admit I know what I'm doing.

 

Buttonmash signets is indeed low-skill in gank scenarios. I've never said otherwise. But making the build actually work against skilled opponents or in outnumbered scenarios is quite different and way more difficult to pull off than just rotating stealth and/or dodges that a large portion of the DrD and D/P/Staff meta builds did until the recent nerfs.

 

It's not even about D/P thief any more, though. It's everything. D/D just can't exist in this game-state because at its best it's basically spam kit for condi play or a worse version of spellbreaker.

[Jinks.2057]

> @DeceiverX.8361 said:

> > @Turk.5460 said:

> > > @Jinks.2057 said:

> > > > @Jana.6831 said:

> > > > > @Vornollo.5182 said:

> > > > > Nerfing D/P will just leave us without viable options for PvP and WvW.

> > > > > To think that after such nerfs, other weapon sets would get buffed to a viable status is naïve at best.

> > > > > They have been buffing other weapons, actually (largely S/x and Acro) but simply to no real effect. Not because they're terrible by design, but largely (not entirely, mind you!) because with the powercreep affecting the entire game, they have no place against other professions /classes/builds.

> > > > > Sorry to burst your bubbles, but the fault isn't with D/P, it's with the entire direction that this game took.

> > > > >

> > > > > Sorry for going off-topic. This thread is about Unhindered Combatant, nothing else. Maybe make a new thread if you wish to kitten about weapons.

> > > >

> > > > The recent nerfs to thief which killed other sets were forced reveal (e.g). Can D/P bypass that? Yes, it can with SS, BP, AA, interrupts. The stealth attack cooldown (e.g). Can D/P bypass that? Yes, with SS, AA, BP and interrupts. Do you get where I'm getting at? D/P can still get all the favours of being in stealth, while they don't rely on it - they have been pigeonholed into one playstyle because of the changes but can still sustain because D/P is that strong. Yet the NERF cries won't stop and the people crying that don't get that they want one set to be nerfed and not thief the class. Yet thief the class gets nerfed over and over again while D/P still remains. UC is a problem for maybe D/P and S/D, but I guess it's less of a problem for D/P and hey, we're right at the topic again. I think you're naive if you think that "other sets just have to be buffed", but alas.

> >

> > > Funny thing is though most of the enthusiasts can't find their 3 key or understand when to use it lol.

> >

> > Couldn't agree more. But the ones who post on the forums are the ones who championed the Signet 1HKO Thief like they were some sort of godly players for mashing all their signets then doing by far the *easiest* Thief combo there is (CnD, Steal, Backstab). These people are in the mindset that every little thing they build for has to be for the highest possible damage, they like those numbers! Sustained medium-pressure and damage mitigation are lost concepts for them, unfortunately. It's pretty, sad tbh.

>

> I get that this is a quip at me because let's face it: I'm pretty much the only guy that played signets for so long. Though unfortunately, DB is the skill I used fourth-most on my D/D thief when I played it, after the AA, Infil Strike/Return, and Flanking/Larcenous. Yes those are S/D skills, and I know this because I did a breakdown with keymapping history. My figure here is around 83% of my casted abilities were S/D. You could pretty much ask anyone I regularly fought and they'd tell you I spent maybe 80% of my time in S/D as a glass cannon to negate incoming hits. You can keep up the narrative about me being some kind of lolgank montage youtuber, though. As soon as it comes from a D/P player like Aikijin, of course it's skilled play instead of just having fun and being good at an otherwise weak utility weapon/skill skill setup and playing/building smart.

>

> The confusion comes from people who don't play against a lot of very-skilled players that understand D/D's wekanesses that because the kit is simple, it's easy to generate wins. This works to a point. The warrior was this way leading up to HoT, and it had little presence in anything but PvE. Only after insane buffs with Berserker's release to some core skills did the class start getting into "OP" territory again. Even still, simple kits, difficult execution when up against people who know how to fight it.

>

> The best example is Sindrender's D/D gameplay video. His performance was... crude. I have nothing on the guy when it comes to D/P and knowing enemy skill timers. his play was good, but nothing exceptional. He won a lot of those fights because his enemies continued to fight as though trying to out-play a D/P thief, and they suffered huge losses as a consequence. He did as well as he did in the footage, despite being against people at the way top of the boards, because nobody knew how to deal with it because nobody that high up even researches it. Drop down a tier or two and players there can stomp all over the kit because they either see it enough to warrant playing into it, or don't play a level above such that they react accordingly rather than incorrectly trying to be proactive.

>

> It's funny because some of these same thieves *cough* could fairly beat people in the top 100 as soon as they equipped D/P. Some of my guildmates/practice buddies are/were top 100. They'll be first to admit I know what I'm doing.

>

> Buttonmash signets is indeed low-skill in gank scenarios. I've never said otherwise. But making the build actually work against skilled opponents or in outnumbered scenarios is quite different and way more difficult to pull off than just rotating stealth and/or dodges that a large portion of the DrD and D/P/Staff meta builds did until the recent nerfs.

>

> It's not even about D/P thief any more, though. It's everything. D/D just can't exist in this game-state because at its best it's basically spam kit for condi play or a worse version of spellbreaker.

 

I ran the signet d/d build a lot as well when I just wanted to laugh at numbers. I would then invite my victims to my party afterwards to rate their experience. I would snipe zerg drivers/etc.

 

Truth is the build is low skill. You wait for your opportunity and drop someone.

 

99% of the time people never even knew it was coming.

[omgdracula.6345]

Thief is sadly just that class that makes other players feel cheated when they lose in pvp. Stealth is unfair! Their damage is unfair! Their pulmonary impact is unfair(FYI it wasnt). Then S/D came about and we actually had a viable condi build in pvp and the community SCREAMED injustice! It gets nerfed.

 

But yet here we are with pretty much all other classes being able to crap out conditions like they are on a squatty potty, and our only counterplay got destroyed because it apparently had no counterplay.

 

Please Karl tell what other counterplay thieves have to condi spam.

 

 

[bluri.2653]

need full potential deadeye karl can u show us the way

[Sasajoe.1509]

> @omgdracula.6345 said:

> Thief is sadly just that class that makes other players feel cheated when they lose in pvp. Stealth is unfair! Their damage is unfair! Their pulmonary impact is unfair(FYI it wasnt). Then S/D came about and we actually had a viable condi build in pvp and the community SCREAMED injustice! It gets nerfed.

>

> But yet here we are with pretty much all other classes being able to crap out conditions like they are on a squatty potty, and our only counterplay got destroyed because it apparently had no counterplay.

>

> Please Karl tell what other counterplay thieves have to condi spam.

>

>

 

I'll tell you, run away, like every other class does (for example engi or mesmer do it when they meet a scourge :D, + thief has a better condi removal than either of those 2)

Even druids can't handle all the constant condi spam from a competent scourge, BUT that is ok since necros are VERY immobile while thief has the best mobility in game - I don't see a problem here.

 

And yeah... thief is a pretty cheap & easy class to play esp in wvw roaming, so I am kind of happy with the nerf (no other class is as forgiving as thief when you fuck up)

 

Now they should give thieves more combat durability while lowering their mobility & things will be even better.

[bluri.2653]

> @Sasajoe.1509 said:

> > @omgdracula.6345 said:

> > Thief is sadly just that class that makes other players feel cheated when they lose in pvp. Stealth is unfair! Their damage is unfair! Their pulmonary impact is unfair(FYI it wasnt). Then S/D came about and we actually had a viable condi build in pvp and the community SCREAMED injustice! It gets nerfed.

> >

> > But yet here we are with pretty much all other classes being able to crap out conditions like they are on a squatty potty, and our only counterplay got destroyed because it apparently had no counterplay.

> >

> > Please Karl tell what other counterplay thieves have to condi spam.

> >

> >

>

> I'll tell you, run away, like every other class does (for example engi or mesmer do it when they meet a scourge :D, + thief has a better condi removal than either of those 2)

> Even druids can't handle all the constant condi spam from a competent scourge, BUT that is ok since necros are VERY immobile while thief has the best mobility in game - I don't see a problem here.

>

> And yeah... thief is a pretty cheap & easy class to play esp in wvw roaming, so I am kind of happy with the nerf (no other class is as forgiving as thief when you kitten up)

>

> Now they should give thieves more combat durability while lowering their mobility & things will be even better.

 

Engi has more condi clear than thief and so do mirage with EM, thief has perhaps a higher "burst condi cleanse" than mirage but during a full game a mirage has more. And engi has by far the most of these 3 esp if u run like elixir c, even without it.

 

[Asur.9178]

> @bluri.2653 said:

> need full potential deadeye karl can u show us the way

 

I can show you full potential deadeye; hold my beer while I outplay people with my amazing deadeye stolen skills.

[Cynz.9437]

> @Asur.9178 said:

> > @bluri.2653 said:

> > need full potential deadeye karl can u show us the way

>

> I can show you full potential deadeye; hold my beer while I outplay people with my amazing deadeye stolen skills.

 

You, sir (assumption), owe me a drink i just spit on the table.

[omgdracula.6345]

> @Sasajoe.1509 said:

> I'll tell you, run away, like every other class does (for example engi or mesmer do it when they meet a scourge :D, + thief has a better condi removal than either of those 2)

> Even druids can't handle all the constant condi spam from a competent scourge, BUT that is ok since necros are VERY immobile while thief has the best mobility in game - I don't see a problem here.

>

> And yeah... thief is a pretty cheap & easy class to play esp in wvw roaming, so I am kind of happy with the nerf (no other class is as forgiving as thief when you kitten up)

>

> Now they should give thieves more combat durability while lowering their mobility & things will be even better.

 

Giving thief more combat durability defeats the purpose of the thief archetype. Thieves aren't brawlers. They are highly mobile and hit hard. Which is what D/P does and what unhindered combatant does.

 

I always find it funny that any game that has a thief class get super pissed when they get blown up quickly yet don't realize that is the whole basis of the archetype.

 

Making thief less mobile and more durable makes 0 sense.