What If...

[Crossaber.8934]

If it happened 1.5 year ago, i will stay; it it happens today, i will quite. The more i played wvw, the more i prefer this game mode over others.

[Vasdamas Anklast.1607]

If they removed spvp and wvw, their office would be burnt to the ground.

 

 

JK ofc but who knows

[Svarty.8019]

> @STIHL.2489 said:

> would you really quit the game if they chose to remove WvW/PvP from the game to focus on more PvE related stuff.

Yes.

It's in the interests of Anet to keep all of their game-modes going for as long as possible and with as many people as possible. Not all will pay RL$ to play, but it's about percentages.

 

 

[FogLeg.9354]

> @STIHL.2489 said:

> Now, this is just a wondering. Theory Crafting the Worst case as it were.

> Above and beyond the people who enjoy WvW quitting the game, What is the worst that would happen to the overall game?

 

We don't know how many people play WvW, how many play PvP and how many play PvE endgame (dungeons, fractals, raids) and how many do not play any of these. Surely same players could enjoy all or multiple gamemodes too. Anet knows but does not publish any numbers, so we can guess.

 

Luckily the forum has different sections for WvW, PvP and PvE (raids). We assume there is fairly equal number of players posting in the forum about the gamemodes compared to overall number of players playing it.

 

WvW - 499 discussions - 9.9K comments

PvE - 220 discussions - 4.1K - comments

PvP - 810 discussions - 13.2K comments

 

Basically we can see that there is about twice the number of WvW players compared to PvE players, and twice the number of PvP players compared to WvW players. So PvP has most players and should be most successful gamemode. WvW is at second place and least players are interested about PvE endgame (dungeons, fractals, raids). Based on this, if some gamemode should be picked to be shut down, it should be PvE endgame (specially considering how much work it is to create new dungeons, fractals and raids, and how little work WvW requires).

[STIHL.2489]

> @FogLeg.9354 said:

> > @STIHL.2489 said:

> > Now, this is just a wondering. Theory Crafting the Worst case as it were.

> > Above and beyond the people who enjoy WvW quitting the game, What is the worst that would happen to the overall game?

>

> We don't know how many people play WvW, how many play PvP and how many play PvE endgame (dungeons, fractals, raids) and how many do not play any of these. Surely same players could enjoy all or multiple gamemodes too. Anet knows but does not publish any numbers, so we can guess.

>

> Luckily the forum has different sections for WvW, PvP and PvE (raids). We assume there is fairly equal number of players posting in the forum about the gamemodes compared to overall number of players playing it.

>

> WvW - 499 discussions - 9.9K comments

> PvE - 220 discussions - 4.1K - comments

> PvP - 810 discussions - 13.2K comments

>

> Basically we can see that there is about twice the number of WvW players compared to PvE players, and twice the number of PvP players compared to WvW players. So PvP has most players and should be most successful gamemode. WvW is at second place and least players are interested about PvE endgame (dungeons, fractals, raids). Based on this, if some gamemode should be picked to be shut down, it should be PvE endgame (specially considering how much work it is to create new dungeons, fractals and raids, and how little work WvW requires).

 

Humm good points about the numbers. Wonder why more is not not being done for PvP and WvW.

[GDchiaScrub.3241]

> @STIHL.2489 said:

> > @FogLeg.9354 said:

> > > @STIHL.2489 said:

> > > Now, this is just a wondering. Theory Crafting the Worst case as it were.

> > > Above and beyond the people who enjoy WvW quitting the game, What is the worst that would happen to the overall game?

> >

> > We don't know how many people play WvW, how many play PvP and how many play PvE endgame (dungeons, fractals, raids) and how many do not play any of these. Surely same players could enjoy all or multiple gamemodes too. Anet knows but does not publish any numbers, so we can guess.

> >

> > Luckily the forum has different sections for WvW, PvP and PvE (raids). We assume there is fairly equal number of players posting in the forum about the gamemodes compared to overall number of players playing it.

> >

> > WvW - 499 discussions - 9.9K comments

> > PvE - 220 discussions - 4.1K - comments

> > PvP - 810 discussions - 13.2K comments

> >

> > Basically we can see that there is about twice the number of WvW players compared to PvE players, and twice the number of PvP players compared to WvW players. So PvP has most players and should be most successful gamemode. WvW is at second place and least players are interested about PvE endgame (dungeons, fractals, raids). Based on this, if some gamemode should be picked to be shut down, it should be PvE endgame (specially considering how much work it is to create new dungeons, fractals and raids, and how little work WvW requires).

>

> Humm good points about the numbers. Wonder why more is not not being done for PvP and WvW.

 

This is a bad interpretation of those numbers. The only real thing you can say about this is that people "use the forums for pvp and wvw more than they do pve." This shouldn't be used to assume population or player interest in the game. If anything it'd be the opposite. People are more apt to use the forums to complain than they are to compliment. So if nothing bad is going on in one aspect of the game it's understandable if it receives less forum attention (due to lack of complaints).

[SkyShroud.2865]

> @Veprovina.4876 said:

> People would get bored and quit. Simple as that. There's only so much you can do in PvE and you need something like WvW or PvP to break the monotony. I don't want to be stuck doing "rotations" in Fractals or Raids, that's boring after a while. That's why WvW is there.

 

There are tons of people who can keep redoing dungeon, fotm and raid over and over again without getting bored so your argument is invalid.

Elsewhere people that actually do multiple contents are actually the minority.

[Aeolus.3615]

i only play WvW on this game, i cant stand the gw2 pve tho, worst pve i ever played.

 

Theres nothing to do on pve... no sense of adventure.

[Veprovina.4876]

> @GDchiaScrub.3241 said:

> > @STIHL.2489 said:

> > > @FogLeg.9354 said:

> > > > @STIHL.2489 said:

> > > > Now, this is just a wondering. Theory Crafting the Worst case as it were.

> > > > Above and beyond the people who enjoy WvW quitting the game, What is the worst that would happen to the overall game?

> > >

> > > We don't know how many people play WvW, how many play PvP and how many play PvE endgame (dungeons, fractals, raids) and how many do not play any of these. Surely same players could enjoy all or multiple gamemodes too. Anet knows but does not publish any numbers, so we can guess.

> > >

> > > Luckily the forum has different sections for WvW, PvP and PvE (raids). We assume there is fairly equal number of players posting in the forum about the gamemodes compared to overall number of players playing it.

> > >

> > > WvW - 499 discussions - 9.9K comments

> > > PvE - 220 discussions - 4.1K - comments

> > > PvP - 810 discussions - 13.2K comments

> > >

> > > Basically we can see that there is about twice the number of WvW players compared to PvE players, and twice the number of PvP players compared to WvW players. So PvP has most players and should be most successful gamemode. WvW is at second place and least players are interested about PvE endgame (dungeons, fractals, raids). Based on this, if some gamemode should be picked to be shut down, it should be PvE endgame (specially considering how much work it is to create new dungeons, fractals and raids, and how little work WvW requires).

> >

> > Humm good points about the numbers. Wonder why more is not not being done for PvP and WvW.

>

> This is a bad interpretation of those numbers. The only real thing you can say about this is that people "use the forums for pvp and wvw more than they do pve." This shouldn't be used to assume population or player interest in the game. If anything it'd be the opposite. People are more apt to use the forums to complain than they are to compliment. So if nothing bad is going on in one aspect of the game it's understandable if it receives less forum attention (due to lack of complaints).

 

Exactly my though. Those numbers could be interpreted more as who complains more and which game mode has it worst. So by that logic, PvP has the worst problems, WvW is in the middle and PvE is fine and people don't have any issues with it. Except even that is not entirely accurate interpretation since you could just say PvP has the most complainers (and if you've seen that forum, well, yeah), WvW has less and PvE has a small amount. And seeing as PvP and WvW are competitive game modes, of course that's going to be the case, someone is going to be salty over losing and it's not going to be their fault, i'ts Anet's fault for not balancing the classes and voila, a new topic on the forum is created.

 

So, @"FogLeg.9354" the forum numbers actually don't mean anything except how many people read and interact on the forums.

 

> @Aeolus.3615 said:

> i only play WvW on this game, i cant stand the gw2 pve tho, worst pve i ever played.

>

> Theres nothing to do on pve... no sense of adventure.

 

You mean you don't like memorizing keystrokes and turning yourself into a giant macro for raiding because the bosses never do anything different? :tongue:

[Malerian.8435]

I would quit. And a lot of others as well. WvW makes up a decent amount of the player base, as well as PvP. Take those two out and Gw2 would go down hill very fast. I rarely do any PvE anymore. WvW is what makes the game enjoyable to me.

[Crossaber.8934]

I will shut down RAID seriously, o no, i am kidding.......

 

[juno.1840]

> @STIHL.2489 said:

> Above and beyond the people who enjoy WvW quitting the game, What is the worst that would happen to the overall game?

 

You answered your own question.

 

[Jana.6831]

GW2 is a PvE only game. It'd be better to remove WvW as it's kind of false advertising :naughty:

[starlinvf.1358]

> @STIHL.2489 said:

> > @Veprovina.4876 said:

> > People would get bored and quit. Simple as that. There's only so much you can do in PvE and you need something like WvW or PvP to break the monotony. I don't want to be stuck doing "rotations" in Fractals or Raids, that's boring after a while. That's why WvW is there.

>

> This is how I feel as well, that WvW is the next step up from PvE, where the opponents are other players.

>

> But I often wonder, how much impact it would have on the game overall, if they simply removed the PvP aspect of it. I realize that some people would leave, that is a given, but, how much would it really affect or change the overall game of GW2.

 

I hypothesize its actually very significant, but the effects wouldn't be visible right away (if we forego the backlash for the sake of argument). For all the bitching people make about Gift of Battle being WvW only, getting people OUT of PvE from time to time is important. Especially considering PvE now has, by far, the most aggressive time gates and hoop jumping of the 3 modes, due to an ever increasing need to slow content consumption. We've known since WoW's second expansion, that the trend for MMO content consumption is going massively outstrip the rate at which it can be produced. That should be utterly shocking if you understand how big of a team Blizzard has assigned JUST to content creation for WoW. And just like WoW, their structured PvP (NOT open world PvP) is there for (and popular because) it helps break up the monotony, and temporarily shift focus away from the normal Grind. PvP there is not really harder, so much as its less predictable. But that uncertainty is tempered by long TTKs, and a very simple combat model that allows layers of strategies to be weaved in for each class.

 

 

The problem with GW2's sPvP is that its too sharp a contrast in tone, pace and intensity to acclimate PvE players into it. In fact, its very much akin to the difference between most shooter game's Single player and Multiplayer modes, and suffers from a lot of the same pacing quirks of fast paced shooter. When its functioning, WvW offers the highest diversity of useful roles in the game, and should allow support oriented players a real job that isn't hampered by stacking multiple roles (ie ChornoTank being the most overloaded job in Raids). I've played several large scale combined arms games dating as far back as the original Battlefield series, StarSeige Tribes, Planetside, and the descendants of what became known as the MMO Shooters; as well as various Arena game's take at the combined arms design (UT04 being one of the best examples with Station Assault and Onslaught modes). In early games, there was a distinct effort to fit some kind of Logistics system to either meter the use of force multipliers, or create a resource chain to add strategic depth to typically drawn out battles. The very inclusion of such systems creates multiple non-combat focused jobs, rewards coordinated efforts and map awareness, as well as fostering Communication between players.

 

Modern games struggle with this constantly, as many have adopted the idea of "decisive impact" in all levels of game play... the result of which leads to a lot of players feeling they've wasted time on side objectives, seeing as how they can be undone in less time then it takes to respond and save. WvW sees this every day with the PPT game being mostly focused on Commanders, with many larger guilds converting into Fight Guilds to see more action. How often do you see a large group roll through a tower, and then all but abandon it to a few people to tier it up? The Scout Job is also extremely passive, without much they can proactively do, given their vulnerability if they leave the tower/objective. WvW's population cap is supposed to be spread out more.... but its so inefficient on man power, and so much of the gameplay skewed toward Offense, that players with low combat ability have few options outside of running with the Zerg, or hoping no one jumps them while they're working sub-objectives. Yak running is probably one of the worst jobs in the game; as its boring if no one is targeting it, but takes a significant amount of people to escort if the enemy really wanted to shut it down. RPG players for some reason find this a balanced idea; but it actually lacks the kind of elements that make for a fun Ambush or Chase sequence. The real difference between Yaks and roaming, is how Yaks are not important "until they are".... which is why most people avoid escort, unless theres a bigger reason to tolerate the dip in personal XP.

 

Now compare that to Tribes 2, which takes place in a huge battle zone, has only 3 main objectives on each side, and not nearly enough players to cover it all. Each side at the start of the match immediately divides up into 3 major forces. Defense Force is the smallest, and task themselves with setting up and maintaining defense at their base. Siege Corps operate vehicles, run logistics, and bounce between offensive or defensive jobs, depending on what side of the map their on. Assault is the largest (picking up everyone who aren't needed for the other 2, or default if you're just looking for a fight). Defense has access to the most force multipliers, but all of those assets are static. Siege on Offense tears down Defense by attrition, but suppresses Enemy Assault when on Defense. They also have a secondary job setting up forward outposts for faster reinforcement (respawns) and resupply. Assault has the simplest objective (take the flag, or capture a point), but the most complicated strategy in practice. The other 2 groups are there to make that job either easier or harder, depending on direction, and aren't actually effective unless Assault can capitalize on it.

Now this sounds very much like WvW in design.... but a critical difference is how Support players are fit into this ecosystem. For reference, each player has access to 3 weights of Armor, a varied number of handheld weapons, and One Backpack utility. The Backpack is a major defining element in builds, because it actively shapes your function on the battlefield. Most carry Energy for the higher mobility it affords, but there are also Shield Generators (which reduces damage), Extended Ammo, Cloak, Sensor Jammer, Satchel Charge, and several Deployable Defenses, and the Repair Pack. The Repair kit is the Go-To for support players, because it allows them to Heal allies, Repair vehicles, and restore destroyed objectives. The heal rate is low, but keep in mind, this was before Auto regenerating health was a thing. Yet despite its low heal rate, its significantly faster then respawning, finding an inventory terminal, or hunting down health packs; healing them out of combat, so they can get back in faster. A few player could do nothing but run repair and light fire support, and be very satisfied with the impact they're having on the overall fight. But doing that doesn't prevent them from doing other things if needed, or switching roles if called for. They are the foundation of the assault; and the offensive oriented players are limited in run time without Support staving off attrition damage.

 

Fast forward to Tribes Ascend, which is modeled after Call of Duty's Arena combat design (complete with Kill Streak super attacks and Health Regen), mixed with Battlefield 3's mixed arms frame work. Looks good on paper..... but is basically just a high speed MW2 in practice. Kills happen pretty fast, the maps are tiny for the speeds of travel, and AOE got side lined by bullet weapons due to the latter's higher damage spiking capability. The regenerating health and low AOE damage resulted in a game flow that rewards weapons which can deal highly focused damage over a short period, and effectively nullified the value of Pressure damage outside of a 1v1 scenario. And if you think about it, MW2 was all about 1v1 firefights.... and is so heavily skewed toward it, that even COD's Objective based game modes are never played for the objectives. Tribe Ascend suffers the same problems, where most matches begin to devolve into firefights, unless the vast majority of players on the server are in agreement of wanting to play the objective. Engineers and Cloakers also get a ton of hate, because they don't 1v1 you face to face.

 

I know it looks like I'm getting off point, but this is all leading up to something important. These games are all PvP centered, but have all the hall marks of a well designed PvE encounter. Offensive players don't have natural sustain, which is what the Support roles are there to give them. However, when you expand it outside of a Group Comp, a Map-scale support role is eventually going to be represented as a logistics system. WvW's logistics system is just horrible..... players have almost no input into how it operates, and is the least rewarding in all aspects of WvW EXCEPT the PPT game. Siege play is also Disconnected from it, and our behavior with siege is opportunity driven. WvW Structures have a Chess like flow (Keeps -> Towers -> Camps -> Towers -> Keeps), and we just outright ignore it most of the time, unless it provides a spawn point, or gives us Supplies for siege. The problem is so Fundamental to WvW's design, that they'd have to redesign the framework from the ground up to fix. And that lack of intermediate jobs leaves PvE players nothing to easily slot into, and give them time to acclimate and gain confidence so they can start doing things which call for higher skill levels. Consider the path of least resistance at the moment is to kill some NPCs to gain participation, and tick down in spawn. What is the next step above that? Pretty much straight into zerg fights or roaming; both of which have incredibly high frequency of death, but low iteration rate for a learning curve. Even when a Raid wipes, its reasonably clear what happened, and can jump right back into it to try again. If you die in WvW, you have to walk back to the front (if its not worth the Commander's time regroup), and probably get picked off by roamers who specialize in 1v1 fights, while you're geared for the opposite.

 

So for all you TL;DR folks..... WvW and PvP should be a welcome change of pace from the PvE slog. Because if the trend of MMO life cycles have been any indication, PvE content is burning out at ever accelerating rates. And the Reward systems are no longer capable of propping it up using cheap tricks. POF is already facing player fatigue, and its barely been out 2 months. The same thing happened with HOT. And despite everyone's insistence, Raids did NOT capture enough people to make up the deficiency. And here we are again, depending on Raids to hold the PvE content together until the next expansion. Except this time, we have an even more casually oriented crowd, thats going into a sub-community thats even more demanding then WvW and PvP combined, and has shown to become increasingly callous once their recruiting frenzy is over. If that fails (again) PvE players now have 3 game modes they could be using to vent frustration, but won't because they find it too unwelcoming. They are then forced to stew in the short falls of the PvE reward system, and the constant frustration and lack of fulfillment pushing them toward an inevitable break point.

 

I run into this very problem every 2 months; and WvW is the only thing in-game that offers any sense of reprieve from the viscous cycle of bigger crafting projects. It also allows me to refocus my builds, and play with things I would never bother to otherwise. With the number of the MMOs out there, and their astoundingly short and gruesome life cycles, the very fact that GW2 had managed to come back from the dead is an Anomaly I don't think enough people appreciate the significance of. And while it can attest to the strengths of the combat system, it also attests to the fragile nature of its PvE content cycle. See, WvW is supposed to compliment Combat play, the way Exploration compliments world design. Its not intended to be the "Be all, end all" of that activity, but is a thing you do when the mood suits you. When your mood changes, you shift focus. This greatly extends the life span of content, because it lowers the intensity of fatigue and offers another outlet if players too are frustrated with something. Personally I quit HOT achievements 30% of the way through, after being brick walled twice on Mastery points. [it wasn't until LS3 (with its glut of excess point) that I decided to finish it up, and finally got to do most of the things the expansion offered outside of the Especs and AB Multimap.] In the interim, I was just farming Tyrian events for material to make legendary weapons..... until I got sick of it. I had WvW before, but always got frustrated with the match ups (and quit because of it). So I decided to revisit it again, and had a blast doing it. Eventually the match ups got sucky, and ended quitting again, because my server had basically given up for that rotation. PvE'd again, finish a Legendary weapon.... and then lost all motivation to do anything. I quit for half a year to play Planetside 2 again, and after getting frustrated with a bunch of things with that game's development, and I restarted GW2 again. Coming back with a fresh perspective reopened a lot of the game's elements, and I started to enjoy things in a way I hadn't since the game's initial launch. This was also the time Ember bay came out- and as I mentioned above, I revisited HOT content to finish off collections, and actually made progress on it.

But now, after POF, the same cycle is sinking again..... and the time line is almost uncanny. I've tried raids before. And while I like the fundamental idea of the mechanics and encounter design, I supremely dislike the attitude of the raid community, and their easy frustration with even minor mistakes. And this was with my guild, who are normally extremely mellow, getting 10.7 on the passive aggressive scale. I also take issue with much of the reward structure, because it actively promotes the exclusionary behavior (that people claimed wasn't going to happen) that makes breaking into a Comp team "after the fact" dependent on someone else quitting, or getting thrown out. And good luck trying to PUG for form a new Team. The effort to train new raiders diminished over time... and became more half assed, as people holding the training sessions were getting tired of doing it. I don't see POF Raids being any different. A flurry of recruitment when interests are at its highest, followed by a steady decay as teams settle in and become complacent. What little interest I have in POF raids is pretty much gone now, and WvW is currently the only thing keeping me here at the moment. Its only a matter of time before I simply don't login one day, be depressed for a week, and eventually move on. And for the record, I have made attempts to get into sPvP at the start of every season... and quickly remember why I stopped after a few games. Bronze hell is real, and I have not the skill or the latency needed to rise above it.

 

wow this turned into a long rant........ time for a sandwich

[Solori.6025]

> @STIHL.2489 said:

> Now, this is just a wondering. Theory Crafting the Worst case as it were.

>

> # What IF, they removed PvP/WvW from GW2?

> #

>

>

 

A Large portion of this games playerbase would leave and it wouldn't be brought back, overtime the game would bleed revenue much more than it already is.

 

[Jana.6831]

> @Aeolus.3615 said:

> i only play WvW on this game, i cant stand the gw2 pve tho, worst pve i ever played.

I like GW2 (open) PvE actually. Especially nifty with the downgrading of one's character as the other games I know are really boring when it comes to that "Wait, why didn't I get loot from this boss? Ah, ok because a high level came and one shotted him. Well alright, it's not as if I need the item I have a 3% chance of getting per kill to complete the current quest I'm on... :trollface: ".

PvE wise GW2 is really comfortable.

[Turk.5460]

> @STIHL.2489 said:

> And would you really quit the game if they chose to remove WvW/PvP from the game to focus on more PvE related stuff.

 

I would not quit. For the sole reason that my Charr is very pretty and I like looking at him.

[Tongku.5326]

> @STIHL.2489 said:

> Now, this is just a wondering. Theory Crafting the Worst case as it were.

>

> # What IF, they removed PvP/WvW from GW2?

> #

>

> Above and beyond the people who enjoy WvW quitting the game, What is the worst that would happen to the overall game?

>

> And would you really quit the game if they chose to remove WvW/PvP from the game to focus on more PvE related stuff.

 

Yea. I would. I have in the past when A-Net crapped out horribly in WVW, just came back when things picked up and it got people again. While I do play other game modes, or at least used to, gave up on SPVP entirely, its WVW that keeps me afloat. Not PVE, not SPVP.

[Reaper Alim.4176]

> @Turk.5460 said:

> > @STIHL.2489 said:

> > And would you really quit the game if they chose to remove WvW/PvP from the game to focus on more PvE related stuff.

>

> I would not quit. For the sole reason that my Charr is very pretty and I like looking at him.

 

This and the fact GW2 is a F2P that is below super casual, so 3 years of work is not invalidated by a DLC/Expansion. Thus allowing me to just log on for 30 to 45 minutes a week or two and still not be losing ground. This to me is really the only reason GW2 has not completely died.

[Aeolus.3615]

 

what Gw2 should be... 5years later and all we saw was power creep evolutions...

 

some mechanics i WOULD liked to see on gw2 other games, are starting to have it..... Ç_Ç sob

 

No one wants sum jecpacts on the glider and have a race map???

Having races in the main cities would be fun imo...

[Veprovina.4876]

> @Aeolus.3615 said:

>

>

> what Gw2 should be... 5years later and all we saw was power creep evolutions...

>

> some mechanics i WOULD liked to see on gw2 other games, are starting to have it..... Ç_Ç sob

>

> No one wants sum jecpacts on the glider and have a race map???

> Having races in the main cities would be fun imo...

 

Oh come on, you can't compare such an old engine and game to some game that hasn't yet been released and is built from the ground up to support those kinds of mechanics. And god forbid Anet should implement races in the main cities, all the F2P white knight defenders would throw a monumental hissy fit over F2P players not being able to participate in the races and having mounts shoved down their throats. Meanwhile, F2P players themselves don't care at all, but you bet the forums would be full of discussions started by PoF players on how this affects F2P players.

 

But +1 to races in major cities, i'd like that. :smile:

[Aeolus.3615]

@Veprovina.4876

Yeah i know, GW2 is actually a very good FORK from the gw1 engine, that is out of question, but GW2 turned out to get old way to fast, due how limited Anet has been envolving the game.

 

What im critcizing is the evolution ANet takes into the game, evolving by adding a "vertical power creep scale/boon spam/condi spam" on the new traitlines, actual gw2 mechanics look even less than some games on alphas or betas test..

They need to envolve the game "(world)" mechanics, not add gimicks to make players buy the next expantion like they are doing.

Anet already failled @ the pvp, and looks like they wan to fail at pve as well, it will get dull with the same redudancy of skill every expantion, wich is already happening.

The only refreshing thing on PoF was the pets...

 

About the races:

The races players could queue :< on a 5 to 8 man races... having players flyign and racing while ur on ther city help the enviroment to get more live and rich.

Anet could actually make one arena later for players race with the pets, or some sorta puzle race wiht usage of the pets... (i hate JP puzles lol)

 

EDIT: NCSOFT is remaking lineage as well.... Project TL ...

[ThunderPanda.1872]

> @starlinvf.1358 said:

> > @STIHL.2489 said:

> > > @Veprovina.4876 said:

> > > People would get bored and quit. Simple as that. There's only so much you can do in PvE and you need something like WvW or PvP to break the monotony. I don't want to be stuck doing "rotations" in Fractals or Raids, that's boring after a while. That's why WvW is there.

> >

> > This is how I feel as well, that WvW is the next step up from PvE, where the opponents are other players.

> >

> > But I often wonder, how much impact it would have on the game overall, if they simply removed the PvP aspect of it. I realize that some people would leave, that is a given, but, how much would it really affect or change the overall game of GW2.

>

> I hypothesize its actually very significant, but the effects wouldn't be visible right away (if we forego the backlash for the sake of argument). For all the kitten people make about Gift of Battle being WvW only, getting people OUT of PvE from time to time is important. Especially considering PvE now has, by far, the most aggressive time gates and hoop jumping of the 3 modes, due to an ever increasing need to slow content consumption. We've known since WoW's second expansion, that the trend for MMO content consumption is going massively outstrip the rate at which it can be produced. That should be utterly shocking if you understand how big of a team Blizzard has assigned JUST to content creation for WoW. And just like WoW, their structured PvP (NOT open world PvP) is there for (and popular because) it helps break up the monotony, and temporarily shift focus away from the normal Grind. PvP there is not really harder, so much as its less predictable. But that uncertainty is tempered by long TTKs, and a very simple combat model that allows layers of strategies to be weaved in for each class.

>

>

> The problem with GW2's sPvP is that its too sharp a contrast in tone, pace and intensity to acclimate PvE players into it. In fact, its very much akin to the difference between most shooter game's Single player and Multiplayer modes, and suffers from a lot of the same pacing quirks of fast paced shooter. When its functioning, WvW offers the highest diversity of useful roles in the game, and should allow support oriented players a real job that isn't hampered by stacking multiple roles (ie ChornoTank being the most overloaded job in Raids). I've played several large scale combined arms games dating as far back as the original Battlefield series, StarSeige Tribes, Planetside, and the descendants of what became known as the MMO Shooters; as well as various Arena game's take at the combined arms design (UT04 being one of the best examples with Station Assault and Onslaught modes). In early games, there was a distinct effort to fit some kind of Logistics system to either meter the use of force multipliers, or create a resource chain to add strategic depth to typically drawn out battles. The very inclusion of such systems creates multiple non-combat focused jobs, rewards coordinated efforts and map awareness, as well as fostering Communication between players.

>

> Modern games struggle with this constantly, as many have adopted the idea of "decisive impact" in all levels of game play... the result of which leads to a lot of players feeling they've wasted time on side objectives, seeing as how they can be undone in less time then it takes to respond and save. WvW sees this every day with the PPT game being mostly focused on Commanders, with many larger guilds converting into Fight Guilds to see more action. How often do you see a large group roll through a tower, and then all but abandon it to a few people to tier it up? The Scout Job is also extremely passive, without much they can proactively do, given their vulnerability if they leave the tower/objective. WvW's population cap is supposed to be spread out more.... but its so inefficient on man power, and so much of the gameplay skewed toward Offense, that players with low combat ability have few options outside of running with the Zerg, or hoping no one jumps them while they're working sub-objectives. Yak running is probably one of the worst jobs in the game; as its boring if no one is targeting it, but takes a significant amount of people to escort if the enemy really wanted to shut it down. RPG players for some reason find this a balanced idea; but it actually lacks the kind of elements that make for a fun Ambush or Chase sequence. The real difference between Yaks and roaming, is how Yaks are not important "until they are".... which is why most people avoid escort, unless theres a bigger reason to tolerate the dip in personal XP.

>

> Now compare that to Tribes 2, which takes place in a huge battle zone, has only 3 main objectives on each side, and not nearly enough players to cover it all. Each side at the start of the match immediately divides up into 3 major forces. Defense Force is the smallest, and task themselves with setting up and maintaining defense at their base. Siege Corps operate vehicles, run logistics, and bounce between offensive or defensive jobs, depending on what side of the map their on. Assault is the largest (picking up everyone who aren't needed for the other 2, or default if you're just looking for a fight). Defense has access to the most force multipliers, but all of those assets are static. Siege on Offense tears down Defense by attrition, but suppresses Enemy Assault when on Defense. They also have a secondary job setting up forward outposts for faster reinforcement (respawns) and resupply. Assault has the simplest objective (take the flag, or capture a point), but the most complicated strategy in practice. The other 2 groups are there to make that job either easier or harder, depending on direction, and aren't actually effective unless Assault can capitalize on it.

> Now this sounds very much like WvW in design.... but a critical difference is how Support players are fit into this ecosystem. For reference, each player has access to 3 weights of Armor, a varied number of handheld weapons, and One Backpack utility. The Backpack is a major defining element in builds, because it actively shapes your function on the battlefield. Most carry Energy for the higher mobility it affords, but there are also Shield Generators (which reduces damage), Extended Ammo, Cloak, Sensor Jammer, Satchel Charge, and several Deployable Defenses, and the Repair Pack. The Repair kit is the Go-To for support players, because it allows them to Heal allies, Repair vehicles, and restore destroyed objectives. The heal rate is low, but keep in mind, this was before Auto regenerating health was a thing. Yet despite its low heal rate, its significantly faster then respawning, finding an inventory terminal, or hunting down health packs; healing them out of combat, so they can get back in faster. A few player could do nothing but run repair and light fire support, and be very satisfied with the impact they're having on the overall fight. But doing that doesn't prevent them from doing other things if needed, or switching roles if called for. They are the foundation of the assault; and the offensive oriented players are limited in run time without Support staving off attrition damage.

>

> Fast forward to Tribes Ascend, which is modeled after Call of Duty's Arena combat design (complete with Kill Streak super attacks and Health Regen), mixed with Battlefield 3's mixed arms frame work. Looks good on paper..... but is basically just a high speed MW2 in practice. Kills happen pretty fast, the maps are tiny for the speeds of travel, and AOE got side lined by bullet weapons due to the latter's higher damage spiking capability. The regenerating health and low AOE damage resulted in a game flow that rewards weapons which can deal highly focused damage over a short period, and effectively nullified the value of Pressure damage outside of a 1v1 scenario. And if you think about it, MW2 was all about 1v1 firefights.... and is so heavily skewed toward it, that even COD's Objective based game modes are never played for the objectives. Tribe Ascend suffers the same problems, where most matches begin to devolve into firefights, unless the vast majority of players on the server are in agreement of wanting to play the objective. Engineers and Cloakers also get a ton of hate, because they don't 1v1 you face to face.

>

> I know it looks like I'm getting off point, but this is all leading up to something important. These games are all PvP centered, but have all the hall marks of a well designed PvE encounter. Offensive players don't have natural sustain, which is what the Support roles are there to give them. However, when you expand it outside of a Group Comp, a Map-scale support role is eventually going to be represented as a logistics system. WvW's logistics system is just horrible..... players have almost no input into how it operates, and is the least rewarding in all aspects of WvW EXCEPT the PPT game. Siege play is also Disconnected from it, and our behavior with siege is opportunity driven. WvW Structures have a Chess like flow (Keeps -> Towers -> Camps -> Towers -> Keeps), and we just outright ignore it most of the time, unless it provides a spawn point, or gives us Supplies for siege. The problem is so Fundamental to WvW's design, that they'd have to redesign the framework from the ground up to fix. And that lack of intermediate jobs leaves PvE players nothing to easily slot into, and give them time to acclimate and gain confidence so they can start doing things which call for higher skill levels. Consider the path of least resistance at the moment is to kill some NPCs to gain participation, and tick down in spawn. What is the next step above that? Pretty much straight into zerg fights or roaming; both of which have incredibly high frequency of death, but low iteration rate for a learning curve. Even when a Raid wipes, its reasonably clear what happened, and can jump right back into it to try again. If you die in WvW, you have to walk back to the front (if its not worth the Commander's time regroup), and probably get picked off by roamers who specialize in 1v1 fights, while you're geared for the opposite.

>

> So for all you TL;DR folks..... WvW and PvP should be a welcome change of pace from the PvE slog. Because if the trend of MMO life cycles have been any indication, PvE content is burning out at ever accelerating rates. And the Reward systems are no longer capable of propping it up using cheap tricks. POF is already facing player fatigue, and its barely been out 2 months. The same thing happened with HOT. And despite everyone's insistence, Raids did NOT capture enough people to make up the deficiency. And here we are again, depending on Raids to hold the PvE content together until the next expansion. Except this time, we have an even more casually oriented crowd, thats going into a sub-community thats even more demanding then WvW and PvP combined, and has shown to become increasingly callous once their recruiting frenzy is over. If that fails (again) PvE players now have 3 game modes they could be using to vent frustration, but won't because they find it too unwelcoming. They are then forced to stew in the short falls of the PvE reward system, and the constant frustration and lack of fulfillment pushing them toward an inevitable break point.

>

> I run into this very problem every 2 months; and WvW is the only thing in-game that offers any sense of reprieve from the viscous cycle of bigger crafting projects. It also allows me to refocus my builds, and play with things I would never bother to otherwise. With the number of the MMOs out there, and their astoundingly short and gruesome life cycles, the very fact that GW2 had managed to come back from the dead is an Anomaly I don't think enough people appreciate the significance of. And while it can attest to the strengths of the combat system, it also attests to the fragile nature of its PvE content cycle. See, WvW is supposed to compliment Combat play, the way Exploration compliments world design. Its not intended to be the "Be all, end all" of that activity, but is a thing you do when the mood suits you. When your mood changes, you shift focus. This greatly extends the life span of content, because it lowers the intensity of fatigue and offers another outlet if players too are frustrated with something. Personally I quit HOT achievements 30% of the way through, after being brick walled twice on Mastery points. [it wasn't until LS3 (with its glut of excess point) that I decided to finish it up, and finally got to do most of the things the expansion offered outside of the Especs and AB Multimap.] In the interim, I was just farming Tyrian events for material to make legendary weapons..... until I got sick of it. I had WvW before, but always got frustrated with the match ups (and quit because of it). So I decided to revisit it again, and had a blast doing it. Eventually the match ups got sucky, and ended quitting again, because my server had basically given up for that rotation. PvE'd again, finish a Legendary weapon.... and then lost all motivation to do anything. I quit for half a year to play Planetside 2 again, and after getting frustrated with a bunch of things with that game's development, and I restarted GW2 again. Coming back with a fresh perspective reopened a lot of the game's elements, and I started to enjoy things in a way I hadn't since the game's initial launch. This was also the time Ember bay came out- and as I mentioned above, I revisited HOT content to finish off collections, and actually made progress on it.

> But now, after POF, the same cycle is sinking again..... and the time line is almost uncanny. I've tried raids before. And while I like the fundamental idea of the mechanics and encounter design, I supremely dislike the attitude of the raid community, and their easy frustration with even minor mistakes. And this was with my guild, who are normally extremely mellow, getting 10.7 on the passive aggressive scale. I also take issue with much of the reward structure, because it actively promotes the exclusionary behavior (that people claimed wasn't going to happen) that makes breaking into a Comp team "after the fact" dependent on someone else quitting, or getting thrown out. And good luck trying to PUG for form a new Team. The effort to train new raiders diminished over time... and became more half assed, as people holding the training sessions were getting tired of doing it. I don't see POF Raids being any different. A flurry of recruitment when interests are at its highest, followed by a steady decay as teams settle in and become complacent. What little interest I have in POF raids is pretty much gone now, and WvW is currently the only thing keeping me here at the moment. Its only a matter of time before I simply don't login one day, be depressed for a week, and eventually move on. And for the record, I have made attempts to get into sPvP at the start of every season... and quickly remember why I stopped after a few games. Bronze hell is real, and I have not the skill or the latency needed to rise above it.

>

> wow this turned into a long rant........ time for a sandwich

 

I need a tldr

[Strider Pj.2193]

@"ThunderPanda.1872" there IS a TLDR in there.... :#

[Veprovina.4876]

> @"Strider Pj.2193" said:

> @"ThunderPanda.1872" there IS a TLDR in there.... :#

 

You know something's wrong when the TLDR is TLDR. :lol:

I read the whole thing though, some good points in there, worth a read.