Unhindered Combatant vs Elusive Mind

[Crinn.7864]

> @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

> > @Crinn.7864 said:

> > > @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

> > > They should make EM, if a Mesmer breaks stun using EM they are unable to Sun break for 4 seconds.

> >

> > That would be as meaningful as the change to Unhindered Combatant.

> >

> > Actually no, it would mean even less than the UC change, because it not like you ever going to be using stunbreaks within 4 seconds of each other. The UC change at least had a handful of extreme edge cases where it meant something.

>

> Haha being locked out of all Stunbreaks for 4 seconds isn’t meaningful? Oh that’s great in this CC Spam Joke of a game.

 

You will not be using multiple stunbreaks within 4 seconds, because

 

1) nobody in this game, not even Bandit's Defense thieves have enough stunbreaks to afford using one every 4 seconds.

2) the amount of cc that actually has a long enough duration to warrant stunbreaking is actually negligible. (you don't waste stunbreaks on half second dazes) The only CC that warrants stunbreaking is longer duration hard CCs.

3) It's worth noting that some defensives can be used while stunned without having to stunbreak. Mesmer's Distortion is a prime example.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

> @Crinn.7864 said:

> > @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

> > > @Crinn.7864 said:

> > > > @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

> > > > They should make EM, if a Mesmer breaks stun using EM they are unable to Sun break for 4 seconds.

> > >

> > > That would be as meaningful as the change to Unhindered Combatant.

> > >

> > > Actually no, it would mean even less than the UC change, because it not like you ever going to be using stunbreaks within 4 seconds of each other. The UC change at least had a handful of extreme edge cases where it meant something.

> >

> > Haha being locked out of all Stunbreaks for 4 seconds isn’t meaningful? Oh that’s great in this CC Spam Joke of a game.

>

> You will not be using multiple stunbreaks within 4 seconds, because

>

> 1) nobody in this game, not even Bandit's Defense thieves have enough stunbreaks to afford using one every 4 seconds.

> 2) the amount of cc that actually has a long enough duration to warrant stunbreaking is actually negligible. (you don't waste stunbreaks on half second dazes) The only CC that warrants stunbreaking is longer duration hard CCs.

> 3) It's worth noting that some defensives can be used while stunned without having to stunbreak. Mesmer's Distortion is a prime example.

 

Fine if you think that isn’t substantial then lock them out of all shatters for 4 seconds, let’s spread the punishment wealth no double standards, but I already know why you wouldn’t realize being locked out of all Stun breaks for that time is consequential.

[apharma.3741]

I know you’re angry at the change to UC but nobody in this thread as far as I know was remotely happy with the UC change. There may be differing opinions on just how strong UC was but most agreed the change implemented wasn’t good, it would be more constructive if you drop this eye for an eye attitude just because your favourite class was nerfed.

[Zenith.7301]

> @BeepBoopBop.5403 said:

> Is it just me or does Elusive Mind need the same treatment that Unhindered Combatant got? Stunbreak on dodge combined with sword ambush is kinda more powerful...

 

Elusive mind on a class with no endurance regen outside 50% uptime vigor procs and who needs to use one of those two endurance bars, not three, to do damage at all since msot of the damage is tied to ambush unlike daredevil whose majority of damage is from autoattacks.

 

Unhindered Combatant also gives a free dash on top of perma swiftness and condi clear.

[OriOri.8724]

I agree with you now that an ICD would not be a good choice. But I still think that stunbreak on dodge is too powerful for a trait. It only seems reasonable because everything has been powercreeped to hell with HoT and PoF. Still though, at the very least the condi cleanse needs to be moved to a different trait.

[Vasdamas Anklast.1607]

Yeah and all of that for such a slippery class like mesmer.

[bart.3687]

> @OriOri.8724 said:

> I agree with you now that an ICD would not be a good choice. But I still think that stunbreak on dodge is too powerful for a trait. It only seems reasonable because everything has been powercreeped to hell with HoT and PoF. Still though, at the very least the condi cleanse needs to be moved to a different trait.

 

As I've discussed with someone in mesmer forum some time ago, I'd move EM's condi removal to Renewing Oasis (basically replace RO's current incoming condi duration reduction with condi removal).

 

Tbh, I think that EM should be removed. It's a boring GM and it's difficult to balance. Mirage still has an advantage as it can dodge while being CC'ed, so I don't see a reason to further improve it with a stun break. Removing this trait would create a window for some more interesting GM, possibly one that could improve Power builds.

[apharma.3741]

> @OriOri.8724 said:

> I agree with you now that an ICD would not be a good choice. But I still think that stunbreak on dodge is too powerful for a trait. It only seems reasonable because everything has been powercreeped to hell with HoT and PoF. Still though, at the very least the condi cleanse needs to be moved to a different trait.

 

See above from Zenith, there’s a world of difference between mesmer endurance regen and DD. DD gets it back from steal as a minor, has a signet that restores 2 dodges, a heal that has one of the most misleading cast times in the game that also restores 1.5 bars as well as having 50% vigor uptime from a very commonly taken trait in a very commonly used line. Thief also has a full trait line to not only gaining vigor but restoring it to nearly pre HoT values where it was undoubtedly DD that got a majority of vigor regen nerfed over the past 2 years.

 

As I say, make the change and see how it goes, endurance regen in PvP (even though someone mentioned WvW this is the PvP forum they chose to post in) has been nerfed all across the board too. Energy sigils are only half a dodge, there’s no food and only adventure runes provide a dodge when you use your heal which has its own risks to use to gain a dodge if at full health.

[Vitali.5039]

> @OriOri.8724 said:

> Elusive mind needs to be addressed. You guys are welcome to give your input as to how it should be addressed, because last I checked there isn't a consensus in the mesmer forums as to the best way to deal with it, but we do agree that it needs to be addressed.

 

Gain Stability and remove conditions for every illusion you have in the world on successful dodge

Condition removed per illusion: 1

Stability per illusion: 1

Stability: 2 sec

 

 

[BeepBoopBop.5403]

> @Vitali.5039 said:

> > @OriOri.8724 said:

> > Elusive mind needs to be addressed. You guys are welcome to give your input as to how it should be addressed, because last I checked there isn't a consensus in the mesmer forums as to the best way to deal with it, but we do agree that it needs to be addressed.

>

> Gain Stability and remove conditions for every illusion you have in the world on successful dodge

> Condition removed per illusion: 1

> Stability per illusion: 1

> Stability: 2 sec

>

>

 

Yeah no thanks, one stack of stability on dodge was OP enough on old scrapper and rev that they got nerfed. No way that version of EM would fly.

[Razor.6392]

**Unhindered combatant**

 

Ignores movement impairing conditions by dodging.

-10% damage

Permanent swiftness

_Nerfed hard by introducing a completely new mechanic designed exclusively to deprive the thief of endurance regen_

 

Anet: How do we step it up from here?

 

**Elusive Mind**

 

Ignores HARD CC by dodging

_Also_ clears a condition

No icd

Grant permanent vigor uptime in said traitline (something that not even daredevil had)

 

Me: 4Head

[BeepBoopBop.5403]

> @Razor.6392 said:

> **Unhindered combatant**

>

> Ignores movement impairing conditions by dodging.

> -10% damage

> Permanent swiftness

> _Nerfed hard by introducing a completely new mechanic designed exclusively to deprive the thief of endurance regen_

>

> Anet: How do we step it up from here?

>

> **Elusive Mind**

>

> Ignores HARD CC by dodging

> _Also_ clears a condition

> No icd

> Grant permanent vigor uptime in said traitline (something that not even daredevil had)

>

> Me: 4Head

 

Forgot superspeed on dodge! But the superspeed for mirage seems to exist to offset the mobility loss from their dodge not rolling them forward.

[OriOri.8724]

> @Razor.6392 said:

> **Unhindered combatant**

>

> Ignores movement impairing conditions by dodging.

> -10% damage

> Permanent swiftness

> _Nerfed hard by introducing a completely new mechanic designed exclusively to deprive the thief of endurance regen_

>

> Anet: How do we step it up from here?

>

> **Elusive Mind**

>

> Ignores HARD CC by dodging

> _Also_ clears a condition

> No icd

> Grant permanent vigor uptime in said traitline (something that not even daredevil had)

>

> Me: 4Head

 

Where in the mirage trailine do we get permanent vigor uptime?

[BeepBoopBop.5403]

> @OriOri.8724 said:

> > @Razor.6392 said:

> > **Unhindered combatant**

> >

> > Ignores movement impairing conditions by dodging.

> > -10% damage

> > Permanent swiftness

> > _Nerfed hard by introducing a completely new mechanic designed exclusively to deprive the thief of endurance regen_

> >

> > Anet: How do we step it up from here?

> >

> > **Elusive Mind**

> >

> > Ignores HARD CC by dodging

> > _Also_ clears a condition

> > No icd

> > Grant permanent vigor uptime in said traitline (something that not even daredevil had)

> >

> > Me: 4Head

>

> Where in the mirage trailine do we get permanent vigor uptime?

 

It's not permanent but IMO it's more uptime than non-acro trickery thief.

[Chaith.8256]

My suggestion was always to grant the condition removal only when activating the dodge roll to break a disable, increase condition removal to two.

 

Being able to dodge while CC'd is still a thing without EM, sprinkling steady condition removal without a condition to get that seems a bit odd...

 

 

[Lalainnia.3598]

> @BeepBoopBop.5403 said:

> > @OriOri.8724 said:

> > > @Razor.6392 said:

> > > **Unhindered combatant**

> > >

> > > Ignores movement impairing conditions by dodging.

> > > -10% damage

> > > Permanent swiftness

> > > _Nerfed hard by introducing a completely new mechanic designed exclusively to deprive the thief of endurance regen_

> > >

> > > Anet: How do we step it up from here?

> > >

> > > **Elusive Mind**

> > >

> > > Ignores HARD CC by dodging

> > > _Also_ clears a condition

> > > No icd

> > > Grant permanent vigor uptime in said traitline (something that not even daredevil had)

> > >

> > > Me: 4Head

> >

> > Where in the mirage trailine do we get permanent vigor uptime?

>

> It's not permanent but IMO it's more uptime than non-acro trickery thief.

 

There are only 2 things that grant vigor that come from mirage one being https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Nomad%27s_Endurance and the other being https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/False_Oasis which is a heal skill. Baseline mesmer has access to vigor from an adept trait in dueling https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Critical_Infusion and if taken they have another vigor trait in a chaos grand master after using cry of frustration shatter https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bountiful_Disillusionment.

 

Also not sure what thief in there right mind wouldn't take trickery.

[BeepBoopBop.5403]

> @OriOri.8724 said:

> > @Razor.6392 said:

> > **Unhindered combatant**

> >

> > Ignores movement impairing conditions by dodging.

> > -10% damage

> > Permanent swiftness

> > _Nerfed hard by introducing a completely new mechanic designed exclusively to deprive the thief of endurance regen_

> >

> > Anet: How do we step it up from here?

> >

> > **Elusive Mind**

> >

> > Ignores HARD CC by dodging

> > _Also_ clears a condition

> > No icd

> > Grant permanent vigor uptime in said traitline (something that not even daredevil had)

> >

> > Me: 4Head

>

> Where in the mirage trailine do we get permanent vigor uptime?

 

It's not permanent but IMO it's more uptime than non-acro trickery thief.> @Lalainnia.3598 said:

> > @BeepBoopBop.5403 said:

> > > @OriOri.8724 said:

> > > > @Razor.6392 said:

> > > > **Unhindered combatant**

> > > >

> > > > Ignores movement impairing conditions by dodging.

> > > > -10% damage

> > > > Permanent swiftness

> > > > _Nerfed hard by introducing a completely new mechanic designed exclusively to deprive the thief of endurance regen_

> > > >

> > > > Anet: How do we step it up from here?

> > > >

> > > > **Elusive Mind**

> > > >

> > > > Ignores HARD CC by dodging

> > > > _Also_ clears a condition

> > > > No icd

> > > > Grant permanent vigor uptime in said traitline (something that not even daredevil had)

> > > >

> > > > Me: 4Head

> > >

> > > Where in the mirage trailine do we get permanent vigor uptime?

> >

> > It's not permanent but IMO it's more uptime than non-acro trickery thief.

>

> There are only 2 things that grant vigor that come from mirage one being https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Nomad%27s_Endurance and the other being https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/False_Oasis which is a heal skill. Baseline mesmer has access to vigor from an adept trait in dueling https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Critical_Infusion and if taken they have another vigor trait in a chaos grand master after using cry of frustration shatter https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bountiful_Disillusionment.

>

> Also not sure what thief in there right mind wouldn't take trickery.

 

Trickery thief only has bountiful theft for vigor for 50% potential uptime.

 

Idk what you were trying to prove by listing all mesmer sources of vigor.

 

I only mentioned trickery because I wanted to specifically highlight thief's source of vigor.

[Cynz.9437]

> @Lalainnia.3598 said:

> > @BeepBoopBop.5403 said:

> > > @OriOri.8724 said:

> > > > @Razor.6392 said:

> > > > **Unhindered combatant**

> > > >

> > > > Ignores movement impairing conditions by dodging.

> > > > -10% damage

> > > > Permanent swiftness

> > > > _Nerfed hard by introducing a completely new mechanic designed exclusively to deprive the thief of endurance regen_

> > > >

> > > > Anet: How do we step it up from here?

> > > >

> > > > **Elusive Mind**

> > > >

> > > > Ignores HARD CC by dodging

> > > > _Also_ clears a condition

> > > > No icd

> > > > Grant permanent vigor uptime in said traitline (something that not even daredevil had)

> > > >

> > > > Me: 4Head

> > >

> > > Where in the mirage trailine do we get permanent vigor uptime?

> >

> > It's not permanent but IMO it's more uptime than non-acro trickery thief.

>

> There are only 2 things that grant vigor that come from mirage one being https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Nomad%27s_Endurance and the other being https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/False_Oasis which is a heal skill. Baseline mesmer has access to vigor from an adept trait in dueling https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Critical_Infusion and if taken they have another vigor trait in a chaos grand master after using cry of frustration shatter https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bountiful_Disillusionment.

>

> Also not sure what thief in there right mind wouldn't take trickery.

 

Did you even read what he wrote?

[apharma.3741]

> @BeepBoopBop.5403 said:

> > @OriOri.8724 said:

> > > @Razor.6392 said:

> > > **Unhindered combatant**

> > >

> > > Ignores movement impairing conditions by dodging.

> > > -10% damage

> > > Permanent swiftness

> > > _Nerfed hard by introducing a completely new mechanic designed exclusively to deprive the thief of endurance regen_

> > >

> > > Anet: How do we step it up from here?

> > >

> > > **Elusive Mind**

> > >

> > > Ignores HARD CC by dodging

> > > _Also_ clears a condition

> > > No icd

> > > Grant permanent vigor uptime in said traitline (something that not even daredevil had)

> > >

> > > Me: 4Head

> >

> > Where in the mirage trailine do we get permanent vigor uptime?

>

> It's not permanent but IMO it's more uptime than non-acro trickery thief.

 

3s on shatter, on MW that’s 25% uptime if using it off CD. You can get more by shattering CoF but that’s on a 25s base CD so what we can say is every 25s roughly you get about 12s of vigor, this is worth 2.5% endurance regeneration rate (base is 5%/s and vigor is +50%) that’s 2.5 endurance each second for a total of 30 in that 25s cycle. That is shattering off CD as soon as it’s up.

 

Endurance thief gives back 25 endurance every 30s baseline so while you are correct that this does allow for higher regen than non acro thief it isn’t correct for a non acro trickery thief which gets a base cool down reduction to 25.5s and usually goes slight of hand to 21s. That’s 25 endurance given back every 21s which for all intent the same as mirage as the actual difference is 0.02 endurance regained per second over the cycle.

 

Now you could pick illusions which reduces shatter cool downs which would allow for 30 endurance regen in about 21s using MW three times and cry of frustration once but I think the point has been made that while it is technically more it’s not by a lot. Even then steal has almost no downside to being used as soon as possible while mirage would not use shatters off CD. A more realistic duration would be 9s vigor over 21s or 25s where it would be 22.5 endurance back during those 9s of vigor however long a CD it ends up on.

 

As also mentioned mesmer has no other source of endurance regain as a chunk of endurance being restored outside of vigor, energy sigils and adventure runes which are all mostly available to all class except necro because necros hate boons. Thief has signet of agility, the 2nd part of its dagger auto, an auto prod in acro, got channel vigor with DD, a staff trait and can trait to regain endurance on physical skills.

 

Put simply this comparison done in a vacuum is pointless as there’s far more to it than simply comparing 2 traits especially as each is affected by commonly taken traits, one is also a boon and one is a flat endurance regen while we also have to consider the availability of endurance regen options open to each and their cost vs benefit to each.

[BeepBoopBop.5403]

> @apharma.3741 said:

> > @BeepBoopBop.5403 said:

> > > @OriOri.8724 said:

> > > > @Razor.6392 said:

> > > > **Unhindered combatant**

> > > >

> > > > Ignores movement impairing conditions by dodging.

> > > > -10% damage

> > > > Permanent swiftness

> > > > _Nerfed hard by introducing a completely new mechanic designed exclusively to deprive the thief of endurance regen_

> > > >

> > > > Anet: How do we step it up from here?

> > > >

> > > > **Elusive Mind**

> > > >

> > > > Ignores HARD CC by dodging

> > > > _Also_ clears a condition

> > > > No icd

> > > > Grant permanent vigor uptime in said traitline (something that not even daredevil had)

> > > >

> > > > Me: 4Head

> > >

> > > Where in the mirage trailine do we get permanent vigor uptime?

> >

> > It's not permanent but IMO it's more uptime than non-acro trickery thief.

>

> 3s on shatter, on MW that’s 25% uptime if using it off CD. You can get more by shattering CoF but that’s on a 25s base CD so what we can say is every 25s roughly you get about 12s of vigor, this is worth 2.5% endurance regeneration rate (base is 5%/s and vigor is +50%) that’s 2.5 endurance each second for a total of 30 in that 25s cycle. That is shattering off CD as soon as it’s up.

>

> Endurance thief gives back 25 endurance every 30s baseline so while you are correct that this does allow for higher regen than non acro thief it isn’t correct for a non acro trickery thief which gets a base cool down reduction to 25.5s and usually goes slight of hand to 21s. That’s 25 endurance given back every 21s which for all intent the same as mirage as the actual difference is 0.02 endurance regained per second over the cycle.

>

> Now you could pick illusions which reduces shatter cool downs which would allow for 30 endurance regen in about 21s using MW three times and cry of frustration once but I think the point has been made that while it is technically more it’s not by a lot. Even then steal has almost no downside to being used as soon as possible while mirage would not use shatters off CD. A more realistic duration would be 9s vigor over 21s or 25s where it would be 22.5 endurance back during those 9s of vigor however long a CD it ends up on.

>

> As also mentioned mesmer has no other source of endurance regain as a chunk of endurance being restored outside of vigor, energy sigils and adventure runes which are all mostly available to all class except necro because necros hate boons. Thief has signet of agility, the 2nd part of its dagger auto, an auto prod in acro, got channel vigor with DD, a staff trait and can trait to regain endurance on physical skills.

>

> Put simply this comparison done in a vacuum is pointless as there’s far more to it than simply comparing 2 traits especially as each is affected by commonly taken traits, one is also a boon and one is a flat endurance regen while we also have to consider the availability of endurance regen options open to each and their cost vs benefit to each.

 

It's a good thing that we were discussing vigor uptime and not total endurance regen.

 

Mesmers man, everyone's just out to get them huh.

[apharma.3741]

> @BeepBoopBop.5403 said:

> > @apharma.3741 said:

> > > @BeepBoopBop.5403 said:

> > > > @OriOri.8724 said:

> > > > > @Razor.6392 said:

> > > > > **Unhindered combatant**

> > > > >

> > > > > Ignores movement impairing conditions by dodging.

> > > > > -10% damage

> > > > > Permanent swiftness

> > > > > _Nerfed hard by introducing a completely new mechanic designed exclusively to deprive the thief of endurance regen_

> > > > >

> > > > > Anet: How do we step it up from here?

> > > > >

> > > > > **Elusive Mind**

> > > > >

> > > > > Ignores HARD CC by dodging

> > > > > _Also_ clears a condition

> > > > > No icd

> > > > > Grant permanent vigor uptime in said traitline (something that not even daredevil had)

> > > > >

> > > > > Me: 4Head

> > > >

> > > > Where in the mirage trailine do we get permanent vigor uptime?

> > >

> > > It's not permanent but IMO it's more uptime than non-acro trickery thief.

> >

> > 3s on shatter, on MW that’s 25% uptime if using it off CD. You can get more by shattering CoF but that’s on a 25s base CD so what we can say is every 25s roughly you get about 12s of vigor, this is worth 2.5% endurance regeneration rate (base is 5%/s and vigor is +50%) that’s 2.5 endurance each second for a total of 30 in that 25s cycle. That is shattering off CD as soon as it’s up.

> >

> > Endurance thief gives back 25 endurance every 30s baseline so while you are correct that this does allow for higher regen than non acro thief it isn’t correct for a non acro trickery thief which gets a base cool down reduction to 25.5s and usually goes slight of hand to 21s. That’s 25 endurance given back every 21s which for all intent the same as mirage as the actual difference is 0.02 endurance regained per second over the cycle.

> >

> > Now you could pick illusions which reduces shatter cool downs which would allow for 30 endurance regen in about 21s using MW three times and cry of frustration once but I think the point has been made that while it is technically more it’s not by a lot. Even then steal has almost no downside to being used as soon as possible while mirage would not use shatters off CD. A more realistic duration would be 9s vigor over 21s or 25s where it would be 22.5 endurance back during those 9s of vigor however long a CD it ends up on.

> >

> > As also mentioned mesmer has no other source of endurance regain as a chunk of endurance being restored outside of vigor, energy sigils and adventure runes which are all mostly available to all class except necro because necros hate boons. Thief has signet of agility, the 2nd part of its dagger auto, an auto prod in acro, got channel vigor with DD, a staff trait and can trait to regain endurance on physical skills.

> >

> > Put simply this comparison done in a vacuum is pointless as there’s far more to it than simply comparing 2 traits especially as each is affected by commonly taken traits, one is also a boon and one is a flat endurance regen while we also have to consider the availability of endurance regen options open to each and their cost vs benefit to each.

>

> It's a good thing that we were discussing vigor uptime and not total endurance regen.

>

> Mesmers man, everyone's just out to get them huh.

 

Take bountiful theft in trickery, which you yourself said in a non acro trickery build and you get 10s vigor on a 21s CD. This is exactly equal to the vigor uptime of 3 shatters being done in the same time frame. Therefore, you’re wrong even by just talking about vigor uptime in trickery, I really would think a thief main would have known that.

[Cynz.9437]

> @apharma.3741 said:

> > @BeepBoopBop.5403 said:

> > > @apharma.3741 said:

> > > > @BeepBoopBop.5403 said:

> > > > > @OriOri.8724 said:

> > > > > > @Razor.6392 said:

> > > > > > **Unhindered combatant**

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Ignores movement impairing conditions by dodging.

> > > > > > -10% damage

> > > > > > Permanent swiftness

> > > > > > _Nerfed hard by introducing a completely new mechanic designed exclusively to deprive the thief of endurance regen_

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Anet: How do we step it up from here?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > **Elusive Mind**

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Ignores HARD CC by dodging

> > > > > > _Also_ clears a condition

> > > > > > No icd

> > > > > > Grant permanent vigor uptime in said traitline (something that not even daredevil had)

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Me: 4Head

> > > > >

> > > > > Where in the mirage trailine do we get permanent vigor uptime?

> > > >

> > > > It's not permanent but IMO it's more uptime than non-acro trickery thief.

> > >

> > > 3s on shatter, on MW that’s 25% uptime if using it off CD. You can get more by shattering CoF but that’s on a 25s base CD so what we can say is every 25s roughly you get about 12s of vigor, this is worth 2.5% endurance regeneration rate (base is 5%/s and vigor is +50%) that’s 2.5 endurance each second for a total of 30 in that 25s cycle. That is shattering off CD as soon as it’s up.

> > >

> > > Endurance thief gives back 25 endurance every 30s baseline so while you are correct that this does allow for higher regen than non acro thief it isn’t correct for a non acro trickery thief which gets a base cool down reduction to 25.5s and usually goes slight of hand to 21s. That’s 25 endurance given back every 21s which for all intent the same as mirage as the actual difference is 0.02 endurance regained per second over the cycle.

> > >

> > > Now you could pick illusions which reduces shatter cool downs which would allow for 30 endurance regen in about 21s using MW three times and cry of frustration once but I think the point has been made that while it is technically more it’s not by a lot. Even then steal has almost no downside to being used as soon as possible while mirage would not use shatters off CD. A more realistic duration would be 9s vigor over 21s or 25s where it would be 22.5 endurance back during those 9s of vigor however long a CD it ends up on.

> > >

> > > As also mentioned mesmer has no other source of endurance regain as a chunk of endurance being restored outside of vigor, energy sigils and adventure runes which are all mostly available to all class except necro because necros hate boons. Thief has signet of agility, the 2nd part of its dagger auto, an auto prod in acro, got channel vigor with DD, a staff trait and can trait to regain endurance on physical skills.

> > >

> > > Put simply this comparison done in a vacuum is pointless as there’s far more to it than simply comparing 2 traits especially as each is affected by commonly taken traits, one is also a boon and one is a flat endurance regen while we also have to consider the availability of endurance regen options open to each and their cost vs benefit to each.

> >

> > It's a good thing that we were discussing vigor uptime and not total endurance regen.

> >

> > Mesmers man, everyone's just out to get them huh.

>

> Take bountiful theft in trickery, which you yourself said in a non acro trickery build and you get *10s vigor on a 21s CD.* This is exactly equal to the vigor uptime of 3 shatters being done in the same time frame. Therefore, you’re wrong even by just talking about vigor uptime in trickery, I really would think a thief main would have known that.

 

...assuming steal actually lands and you use steal off-CD.

[BeepBoopBop.5403]

> @Cynz.9437 said:

> > @apharma.3741 said:

> > > @BeepBoopBop.5403 said:

> > > > @apharma.3741 said:

> > > > > @BeepBoopBop.5403 said:

> > > > > > @OriOri.8724 said:

> > > > > > > @Razor.6392 said:

> > > > > > > **Unhindered combatant**

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Ignores movement impairing conditions by dodging.

> > > > > > > -10% damage

> > > > > > > Permanent swiftness

> > > > > > > _Nerfed hard by introducing a completely new mechanic designed exclusively to deprive the thief of endurance regen_

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Anet: How do we step it up from here?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > **Elusive Mind**

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Ignores HARD CC by dodging

> > > > > > > _Also_ clears a condition

> > > > > > > No icd

> > > > > > > Grant permanent vigor uptime in said traitline (something that not even daredevil had)

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Me: 4Head

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Where in the mirage trailine do we get permanent vigor uptime?

> > > > >

> > > > > It's not permanent but IMO it's more uptime than non-acro trickery thief.

> > > >

> > > > 3s on shatter, on MW that’s 25% uptime if using it off CD. You can get more by shattering CoF but that’s on a 25s base CD so what we can say is every 25s roughly you get about 12s of vigor, this is worth 2.5% endurance regeneration rate (base is 5%/s and vigor is +50%) that’s 2.5 endurance each second for a total of 30 in that 25s cycle. That is shattering off CD as soon as it’s up.

> > > >

> > > > Endurance thief gives back 25 endurance every 30s baseline so while you are correct that this does allow for higher regen than non acro thief it isn’t correct for a non acro trickery thief which gets a base cool down reduction to 25.5s and usually goes slight of hand to 21s. That’s 25 endurance given back every 21s which for all intent the same as mirage as the actual difference is 0.02 endurance regained per second over the cycle.

> > > >

> > > > Now you could pick illusions which reduces shatter cool downs which would allow for 30 endurance regen in about 21s using MW three times and cry of frustration once but I think the point has been made that while it is technically more it’s not by a lot. Even then steal has almost no downside to being used as soon as possible while mirage would not use shatters off CD. A more realistic duration would be 9s vigor over 21s or 25s where it would be 22.5 endurance back during those 9s of vigor however long a CD it ends up on.

> > > >

> > > > As also mentioned mesmer has no other source of endurance regain as a chunk of endurance being restored outside of vigor, energy sigils and adventure runes which are all mostly available to all class except necro because necros hate boons. Thief has signet of agility, the 2nd part of its dagger auto, an auto prod in acro, got channel vigor with DD, a staff trait and can trait to regain endurance on physical skills.

> > > >

> > > > Put simply this comparison done in a vacuum is pointless as there’s far more to it than simply comparing 2 traits especially as each is affected by commonly taken traits, one is also a boon and one is a flat endurance regen while we also have to consider the availability of endurance regen options open to each and their cost vs benefit to each.

> > >

> > > It's a good thing that we were discussing vigor uptime and not total endurance regen.

> > >

> > > Mesmers man, everyone's just out to get them huh.

> >

> > Take bountiful theft in trickery, which you yourself said in a non acro trickery build and you get *10s vigor on a 21s CD.* This is exactly equal to the vigor uptime of 3 shatters being done in the same time frame. Therefore, you’re wrong even by just talking about vigor uptime in trickery, I really would think a thief main would have known that.

>

> ...assuming steal actually lands and you use steal off-CD.

 

Can mirage only get vigor if the shatter hits pls

[BeepBoopBop.5403]

> @apharma.3741 said:

> > @BeepBoopBop.5403 said:

> > > @apharma.3741 said:

> > > > @BeepBoopBop.5403 said:

> > > > > @OriOri.8724 said:

> > > > > > @Razor.6392 said:

> > > > > > **Unhindered combatant**

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Ignores movement impairing conditions by dodging.

> > > > > > -10% damage

> > > > > > Permanent swiftness

> > > > > > _Nerfed hard by introducing a completely new mechanic designed exclusively to deprive the thief of endurance regen_

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Anet: How do we step it up from here?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > **Elusive Mind**

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Ignores HARD CC by dodging

> > > > > > _Also_ clears a condition

> > > > > > No icd

> > > > > > Grant permanent vigor uptime in said traitline (something that not even daredevil had)

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Me: 4Head

> > > > >

> > > > > Where in the mirage trailine do we get permanent vigor uptime?

> > > >

> > > > It's not permanent but IMO it's more uptime than non-acro trickery thief.

> > >

> > > 3s on shatter, on MW that’s 25% uptime if using it off CD. You can get more by shattering CoF but that’s on a 25s base CD so what we can say is every 25s roughly you get about 12s of vigor, this is worth 2.5% endurance regeneration rate (base is 5%/s and vigor is +50%) that’s 2.5 endurance each second for a total of 30 in that 25s cycle. That is shattering off CD as soon as it’s up.

> > >

> > > Endurance thief gives back 25 endurance every 30s baseline so while you are correct that this does allow for higher regen than non acro thief it isn’t correct for a non acro trickery thief which gets a base cool down reduction to 25.5s and usually goes slight of hand to 21s. That’s 25 endurance given back every 21s which for all intent the same as mirage as the actual difference is 0.02 endurance regained per second over the cycle.

> > >

> > > Now you could pick illusions which reduces shatter cool downs which would allow for 30 endurance regen in about 21s using MW three times and cry of frustration once but I think the point has been made that while it is technically more it’s not by a lot. Even then steal has almost no downside to being used as soon as possible while mirage would not use shatters off CD. A more realistic duration would be 9s vigor over 21s or 25s where it would be 22.5 endurance back during those 9s of vigor however long a CD it ends up on.

> > >

> > > As also mentioned mesmer has no other source of endurance regain as a chunk of endurance being restored outside of vigor, energy sigils and adventure runes which are all mostly available to all class except necro because necros hate boons. Thief has signet of agility, the 2nd part of its dagger auto, an auto prod in acro, got channel vigor with DD, a staff trait and can trait to regain endurance on physical skills.

> > >

> > > Put simply this comparison done in a vacuum is pointless as there’s far more to it than simply comparing 2 traits especially as each is affected by commonly taken traits, one is also a boon and one is a flat endurance regen while we also have to consider the availability of endurance regen options open to each and their cost vs benefit to each.

> >

> > It's a good thing that we were discussing vigor uptime and not total endurance regen.

> >

> > Mesmers man, everyone's just out to get them huh.

>

> Take bountiful theft in trickery, which you yourself said in a non acro trickery build and you get 10s vigor on a 21s CD. This is exactly equal to the vigor uptime of 3 shatters being done in the same time frame. Therefore, you’re wrong even by just talking about vigor uptime in trickery, I really would think a thief main would have known that.

 

But I'm a rev main look at my sick avatar

[apharma.3741]

> @Cynz.9437 said:

> > @apharma.3741 said:

> > > @BeepBoopBop.5403 said:

> > > > @apharma.3741 said:

> > > > > @BeepBoopBop.5403 said:

> > > > > > @OriOri.8724 said:

> > > > > > > @Razor.6392 said:

> > > > > > > **Unhindered combatant**

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Ignores movement impairing conditions by dodging.

> > > > > > > -10% damage

> > > > > > > Permanent swiftness

> > > > > > > _Nerfed hard by introducing a completely new mechanic designed exclusively to deprive the thief of endurance regen_

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Anet: How do we step it up from here?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > **Elusive Mind**

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Ignores HARD CC by dodging

> > > > > > > _Also_ clears a condition

> > > > > > > No icd

> > > > > > > Grant permanent vigor uptime in said traitline (something that not even daredevil had)

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Me: 4Head

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Where in the mirage trailine do we get permanent vigor uptime?

> > > > >

> > > > > It's not permanent but IMO it's more uptime than non-acro trickery thief.

> > > >

> > > > 3s on shatter, on MW that’s 25% uptime if using it off CD. You can get more by shattering CoF but that’s on a 25s base CD so what we can say is every 25s roughly you get about 12s of vigor, this is worth 2.5% endurance regeneration rate (base is 5%/s and vigor is +50%) that’s 2.5 endurance each second for a total of 30 in that 25s cycle. That is shattering off CD as soon as it’s up.

> > > >

> > > > Endurance thief gives back 25 endurance every 30s baseline so while you are correct that this does allow for higher regen than non acro thief it isn’t correct for a non acro trickery thief which gets a base cool down reduction to 25.5s and usually goes slight of hand to 21s. That’s 25 endurance given back every 21s which for all intent the same as mirage as the actual difference is 0.02 endurance regained per second over the cycle.

> > > >

> > > > Now you could pick illusions which reduces shatter cool downs which would allow for 30 endurance regen in about 21s using MW three times and cry of frustration once but I think the point has been made that while it is technically more it’s not by a lot. Even then steal has almost no downside to being used as soon as possible while mirage would not use shatters off CD. A more realistic duration would be 9s vigor over 21s or 25s where it would be 22.5 endurance back during those 9s of vigor however long a CD it ends up on.

> > > >

> > > > As also mentioned mesmer has no other source of endurance regain as a chunk of endurance being restored outside of vigor, energy sigils and adventure runes which are all mostly available to all class except necro because necros hate boons. Thief has signet of agility, the 2nd part of its dagger auto, an auto prod in acro, got channel vigor with DD, a staff trait and can trait to regain endurance on physical skills.

> > > >

> > > > Put simply this comparison done in a vacuum is pointless as there’s far more to it than simply comparing 2 traits especially as each is affected by commonly taken traits, one is also a boon and one is a flat endurance regen while we also have to consider the availability of endurance regen options open to each and their cost vs benefit to each.

> > >

> > > It's a good thing that we were discussing vigor uptime and not total endurance regen.

> > >

> > > Mesmers man, everyone's just out to get them huh.

> >

> > Take bountiful theft in trickery, which you yourself said in a non acro trickery build and you get *10s vigor on a 21s CD.* This is exactly equal to the vigor uptime of 3 shatters being done in the same time frame. Therefore, you’re wrong even by just talking about vigor uptime in trickery, I really would think a thief main would have known that.

>

> ...assuming steal actually lands and you use steal off-CD.

 

I dunno what to say if you can’t land an instant cast ability with 1200 range and 0 tell and as mentioned there’s almost no downside to using it off cool down, but then we are also assuming a rate of shattering, we could quite arbitrarily say the mesmer isn’t shattering as it’s phantasm build so shatters every 20s or so.