Please Ban Scourge From PVP

[maddoctor.2738]

> @Titan.3472 said:

> I just rerolled a scourge to test in pvp : F2 F4 Heal kitten this class is IWIN button everywhere... carried by a totaly broken game balance looool

 

Last season I was at about Gold 2 because I didn't play in the previous ones. Then I decided to roll a Necromancer. My experience with Necromancer is a nearly zero, only used mine to complete some hard jumping puzzles using Spectral Walk. So, I went to pvp and spec Scourge to give it a try.

Went to Platinum 2 without any effort, my rotation was simple, go next to point, press F1 to apply shade on point, roll head on F keys, spam Staff skills. I didn't even bother to read what the Scourge skills did, I was spamming the F keys like crazy.

Result was always me first in damage (no surprise) most kills and so on. Then at around Platinum 2 I stopped because I started losing and rolling my head on the F keys, and staff skill spamming, wasn't enough anymore. Since my experience of Necromancer, and Scourge, was zero before that point, I couldn't go higher because to go above you need some skill and knowledge, so I gave up on Scourge at that point. That was in the previous season when Scourge was even more OP than it is now, but it still is a valid story.

[verskore.4312]

> @Cyczer.7834 said:

> Lets try to understand problem here properly. I believe problem is not just fighting scourge on a 1 v 1, but the skill set of scourge limits your movement in general aswell and that mostly favors scourge > any other class and I believe thats highly uncompetitive.

>

> I dont think any good player knowing their rotations and can time their dodges has any problem fighting scourges in 1 v 1. ( I can kill scourges with DH power guard at gold 3 ). Homewer pvp is not just fighting eachother , it also includes captures that generates points. That being said, scourge aoes are "LARGER" than those capture points . ( Except for mid points in some maps). This means any scourge that is capable of pressing keys can actually force you out of your captured points to decap it, simply because most classes cannot handle fighting scourges in their pulsing aoes due to lack of cleanse which is highly competitive because you dont have a counterplay to it with most builds. Basically if you risk standing in aoe to prevent decap, you will most likely end up losing the fight against necro and furthermore will lose the point aswell, on the other hand if you chose not to fight necro, they'll just drop aoes on the field and guarantee and decap . If you dont wanna bother them at all, its a lost point aswell.

>

>

> If a class can force me out of the point I try to defend without a major trouble I'D say that isnt healthy.

 

THIS, this is exactly what the problem is with scourge.

I normally main necro in pvp but the fact that it's just so ridiculously op and EASY (just smash all buttons and see people melt) to play makes it sooo boring!

The fact that scourge just can force anyone off point just by putting all of his aoe on the ground is ridiculous!

 

If you focus them they die quite fast but the problem is in numbers, if you fight a team with 2 scourges who know what they're doing, well then you're screwed, the aoe condifest is just way too strong, and add another condi mirage in the game and well,... I actually have no words for it. It AMAZES me that Anet hasn't nerfed scourge yet, they don't have to hammer them into the ground but my god, how it is at this moment, it's completely ridiculous!

[Swadow.6213]

Lets also ban Mesmer, Revenant, Guardian, Elementalist, Warrior, Thief, Ranger and Engineer from Fractals and raids.

 

On a serious note, the issue is really that conditions deal their damage too quickly and that burning is just way out of line with rest of conditions. Burning is the most damaging "skill" in sPvP even if you have 32% condition damage reduction. What they really should do is reduce all condition damage by 50% per second and increase the duration by 100%, and after that reduce the burning damage by additional 50%(total of 75%) to bring it somewhat in line with rest of damage conditions. Also all things that apply burning should be looked at and reduce the amount of burning capable of being put out due to it being unconditionally better damaging condition than the rest even when conditions are met. This would also reduce the sustain of Scourge due to not having such massive healing from Parasitic Contagion

 

The big issue currently in sPvP really is not the Scourge, it is the amount of burning it is capable of putting out due to having Dhuumfire and a Firebrand support behind it. Firebrand is the major culprit behind the PoF condi bombs, due to it giving everyone access to burning. Firebrand needs some serious tuning down on the Burn and Boon application front in order to bring some resemblence of balance back. Mirage also needs to be fixed and the massive confusion spike removed, >20 stacks of confusion instantenously is not okay.

[Deihnyx.6318]

> @Cyczer.7834 said:

> Lets try to understand problem here properly. I believe problem is not just fighting scourge on a 1 v 1, but the skill set of scourge limits your movement in general aswell and that mostly favors scourge > any other class and I believe thats highly uncompetitive.

>

> I dont think any good player knowing their rotations and can time their dodges has any problem fighting scourges in 1 v 1. ( I can kill scourges with DH power guard at gold 3 ). Homewer pvp is not just fighting eachother , it also includes captures that generates points. That being said, scourge aoes are "LARGER" than those capture points . ( Except for mid points in some maps). This means any scourge that is capable of pressing keys can actually force you out of your captured points to decap it, simply because most classes cannot handle fighting scourges in their pulsing aoes due to lack of cleanse which is highly competitive because you dont have a counterplay to it with most builds. Basically if you risk standing in aoe to prevent decap, you will most likely end up losing the fight against necro and furthermore will lose the point aswell, on the other hand if you chose not to fight necro, they'll just drop aoes on the field and guarantee and decap . If you dont wanna bother them at all, its a lost point aswell.

>

>

> If a class can force me out of the point I try to defend without a major trouble I'D say that isnt healthy.

 

This is the issue I have with scourge.

Scourge as it isn't an issue but the fact that you can't keep a point because of their aoes (not if you don't want "that guy" in the group yelling STAY ON POINT at you) is a bit ridiculous.

 

In general the game relies way too much on aoes, it's even worse in WvW.

[Flauvious.6195]

> @Nightshade.2570 said:

> Scourge has no stability, if you get away from us, we can not catch you, if you hit us with cc we will fall down over and over. We have one skill which may or may not be on the utility bar that gives us stability. So if your mele, start a cc chain if your distance just hit us from far away we will be dead by the time we get to you. You need to understand that necro would be worthless without its current skills and in fact wiped out of pvp and wvw. Then you will all just be complaining about other overpowered classes that have no counter anymore. Such as firebrand, mirage ect...

 

Ok, let me just charge up a powerful melee range cc- oh, nvm, I got feared mid cast by an insta cast scourge skill. Now I'm perma crippled and the scourge has walked a few feet away. Oh, now I'm dead because every condi in the game was stacked on me in 2 seconds flat.

[Crinn.7864]

> @Griever.8150 said:

> Ban Firebrand and see what happens to Scourges.

 

The meta will change to tempest + scourge.

 

 

[Velimere.7685]

> @"jihm.2315" said:

> people hated the dragon hunter so arena net created the scourge, 250 conditions per second cause they are pro

 

Maybe we'll get Scourgehunter next xpac?

[Seraph.2845]

OP, can't beat them join them? ;)

[Velimere.7685]

> @"Seraph.2845" said:

> OP, can't beat them join them? ;)

 

Matches would get pretty boring if everybody was playing Scourge. :p

[Vag.5682]

What it should be banned is whine posts like this without solid feedback.

 

your obviously clueless.

 

for starters scourges are the most pathetic class when solo , zero mobility low survivability no blocks , evade, stealth or anything and gets counter played from any mobile range class. After barriers nerfs and last patch it looses to anyone 1vs1 and none wants them in pve.

 

Scourge is great in groups with support babysit but the same can be said with warriors , mesmers , theifs and so on. Scourghe become better due to more consistend ae dmg and debuffing.

 

Scourge main role is to debuff boons so maybe start using less of them or use some godamn clearance than running midnless , glass cannon pve builds in pvp without a single support.

 

Nerfing them leaves them with absolute nothing unless you heavily buff their solo department. Also scourges is the only class that holds pvp from been mesmers thiefs 1 shot kill fest.

 

Only players who have problems without scourges are bad ones in random bronze silver pvp

[Seraph.2845]

> @"Velimere.7685" said:

> > @"Seraph.2845" said:

> > OP, can't beat them join them? ;)

>

> Matches would get pretty boring if everybody was playing Scourge. :p

 

> @"Velimere.7685" said:

> > @"Seraph.2845" said:

> > OP, can't beat them join them? ;)

>

> Matches would get pretty boring if everybody was playing Scourge. :p

 

Had a match with 3 necros in my team including myself. We certainly won that match, coupled with thief that went pew pew in my team. The cringey moment came when one of the necro said 'ez' at the end of the match.

 

I stopped playing for the night lol

[Master Ketsu.4569]

> @"Crinn.7864" said:

> > @IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII.4836 said:

> > > @Hooglese.4860 said:

> >

> > > This isn't true. The higher the rank you are, the harder scourge is to beat. At low ranks people faceroll scourge, but don't know the game so they lose regardless due to bad rotations.

> >

> > The higher rank you are, the more you know that scourage is easy to beat, because you're a better player... You wouldn't have gotten there if you just gave up like every-other gold monkey complaining about scourages' low skill floor.

>

> Scourge is a stronger at high rank. Because at high rank, the scourges actually know how to kite, do fear chains, and land ghastly breach combos. Not to mention at high rank people will peel for the scourge.

>

>

 

The big issue with scourge at high level of play has to do with cast times and animations. Because scourge doesn't have any, the usual "abuse dodges and blocks" tactic doesn't work against a decent player that is using scourge. You can't realistically dodge or block an instant cast unless it is being used by a player who is just spamming their skills on recharge. This makes them extremely frustrating since scourges losing has to do with the scourge making a mistake rather than you playing well.

 

The instant casts are also completely unfair from a class balance perspective. Every other PoF spec does not have instant casts on their biggest hitters.

-Holosmith: All of the PF abilities have obvious animations. 5 hits like a truck but is balanced by being very easy to see and evade before smashes down.

-Warrior: FC has obvious animation and has a half second window where you can still dodge it even if you do accidentally hit it.

-Deadeye: Giant obvious red circle appears on you just before the combo hits. Also plays a distinct audio clip just in case you're blind.

-Weaver: Obvious animations. Obvious animations everywhere.

-Firebrand: Not really a damage dealer, but major defensive skills have aoe markings so you know what they used.

-Renegade: LOL

-Mirage: You have to actually do stuff to take most of the damage. Playing defensively against a mirage makes it hard for them to kill you. Don't hit chaos armor.

-Soulbeast: Doesn't really have that high of damage and it ramps so you can just dodge/block in the middle of it. Doesn't have a meta build anyways.

 

And then there is scourge. Giant aoe boon corrupt on a 5s CD that instagibs everything around it. Zero cast time. Animation plays after it hits.

 

I see all these scourge players with the excuse "but this one time a warrior / engie / revenant beat me so scourge isn't OP!". Wrong. They beat you because you screwed up and gave them an opening. If your instant cast skill got dodged or blocked, it's because you were mindlessly spamming it instead of using it at the right moment like an actual good Necro player does.

 

If you think scourge is balanced, you don't know how to play it.

[Daishi.6027]

Tbh I much prefer scourge spreading cancer on points and people dying than bunkers and bruisers that live forever.

 

Scourges are a pain but they die fairly easily to range and focus fire; they probably wouldn’t be an issue if barrier wasn’t changed. The bigger issue is because there are to many ways to peel or support them, or how just stacking them is beneficial. It’s _kind of_ a similar situation as DH during HoT.

 

The nature of barrier now delays the way you engage them, and that’s a problem in a game where time and uncontested points are a big deal. Condi in general is also a little strong right now, so it makes it worse, but despite how annoying it is, I think it’s actually healthier for conquest.

[Rodzynald.5897]

> @"Crinn.7864" said:

> > @Malediktus.9250 said:

> > > @Miaz.8521 said:

> > > ban entire hot and pof from ranked

> > Yes, make ranked games core specs only, leave HoT and PoF specs for hotjoin

>

> So basically you want to ban everything but thief, ele, guardian, and warrior.

>

> There is a much larger imbalance between core specs than there is between elite specs.

>

 

Seriously? Explain those imbalances please.

[Avigrus.2871]

> @"Deihnyx.6318" said:

> > @Cyczer.7834 said:

> > Lets try to understand problem here properly. I believe problem is not just fighting scourge on a 1 v 1, but the skill set of scourge limits your movement in general aswell and that mostly favors scourge > any other class and I believe thats highly uncompetitive.

> >

> > I dont think any good player knowing their rotations and can time their dodges has any problem fighting scourges in 1 v 1. ( I can kill scourges with DH power guard at gold 3 ). Homewer pvp is not just fighting eachother , it also includes captures that generates points. That being said, scourge aoes are "LARGER" than those capture points . ( Except for mid points in some maps). This means any scourge that is capable of pressing keys can actually force you out of your captured points to decap it, simply because most classes cannot handle fighting scourges in their pulsing aoes due to lack of cleanse which is highly competitive because you dont have a counterplay to it with most builds. Basically if you risk standing in aoe to prevent decap, you will most likely end up losing the fight against necro and furthermore will lose the point aswell, on the other hand if you chose not to fight necro, they'll just drop aoes on the field and guarantee and decap . If you dont wanna bother them at all, its a lost point aswell.

> >

> >

> > If a class can force me out of the point I try to defend without a major trouble I'D say that isnt healthy.

>

> This is the issue I have with scourge.

> Scourge as it isn't an issue but the fact that you can't keep a point because of their aoes (not if you don't want "that guy" in the group yelling STAY ON POINT at you) is a bit ridiculous.

>

> In general the game relies way too much on aoes, it's even worse in WvW.

 

I feel when Scourge was designed, the PvP team were not consulted.

 

The whole shade covers entire point concept shouldn't have made it past the design phase.

 

The either need to;

1. Re-design the whole spec

or

2. Nerf it into uselessness

 

I believe A-net will take the later option, so they had better undo the Reaper nerfs from last patch.

[Aeolus.3615]

Just expect a new scourge on the next expantion and every elite trait will spam resistance and some on passives probably Rev lol

More aoe spam, more condi to get condi easier to stack, more boon stacking, but way way more resistance.

 

Doubt Anet will ever do something about balance rather than, keep adding broken counters to broken stacking, it works on paper.. not so much when aplyed into the game.

[Flauvious.6195]

> @"Velimere.7685" said:

> > @"Seraph.2845" said:

> > OP, can't beat them join them? ;)

>

> Matches would get pretty boring if everybody was playing Scourge. :p

 

So how they are now

[malisivo.5264]

Not a heavy PVP player, but dueled with a guildie maining Scourge for a good three hours or so, both in an empty hotjoin and in the FFA arena in the PVP lobby. Just did so for fun... At first. The way he was traited made him impossible to defeat, no matter what build I tried on him. He was defeated only when another Scourge entered the arena.

 

I understand that as a ranger, regardless of whether I used core, druid, or soulbeast, I was at a major disadvantage. I couldn't clear his condis quickly enough or kite away for that matter. At any given time, I had multiple stacks of ten condis on me. Ten! (I took the time to count because I couldn't kite regardless, lol.)

 

Slight rant aside, I do know now why there's an uproar about Scourges. And there needs to be a Nerf. I don't play Necro, so I can't specify, but let's at least make PVP enjoyable again.

[Mouse.7382]

Idk....it is what it is, however, I do not find them difficult at even Legend. Before a match starts, IF opposing team had 2 necros, I swap to either druid/SB or DE thief....kill them EASY the entire match (longer on druid).

 

Now, ppl have said "I'm a warrior, I don't got range." All I can say to that is every class has weaknesses...move to another point/assist elsewhere.

[Tenrai Senshi.2017]

Perhaps it's best not to encourage the developers into taking shortcuts for fixing problems. Unless, of course, you want to set a precedent for more cut corners in the future. Hell, next thing you know, instead of fixing bugs that hamper certain features of the game, they'll simply just remove the features altogether.

[Vag.5682]

> @"malisivo.5264" said:

> Not a heavy PVP player, but dueled with a guildie maining Scourge for a good three hours or so, both in an empty hotjoin and in the FFA arena in the PVP lobby. Just did so for fun... At first. The way he was traited made him impossible to defeat, no matter what build I tried on him. He was defeated only when another Scourge entered the arena.

>

> I understand that as a ranger, regardless of whether I used core, druid, or soulbeast, I was at a major disadvantage. I couldn't clear his condis quickly enough or kite away for that matter. At any given time, I had multiple stacks of ten condis on me. Ten! (I took the time to count because I couldn't kite regardless, lol.)

>

> Slight rant aside, I do know now why there's an uproar about Scourges. And there needs to be a Nerf. I don't play Necro, so I can't specify, but let's at least make PVP enjoyable again.

Ypu must be the only ranger in this world who loose form a scourge.

 

his range is 1200 , yours is 1500 but you cant kite ...

 

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/8762/theorycraft-what-ranger-build-would-counter-scourge-in-spvp

 

well here some who can

 

 

 

 

 

> @"Titan.3472" said:

> I just rerolled a scourge to test in pvp : F2 F4 Heal kitten this class is IWIN button everywhere... carried by a totaly broken game balance looool

 

Your trolling good thing devs don't look in general forums or they don't care.

 

f2 is a 2k barrier every 5 second and f4 a 5k barrier every 15.

 

almost every nerf scourge is full of bs claims not backed up by any actual info or proof

 

[malisivo.5264]

> @"Vag.5682" said:

 

> Ypu must be the only ranger in this world who loose form a scourge.

>

> his range is 1200 , yours is 1500 but you cant kite ...

>

> https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/8762/theorycraft-what-ranger-build-would-counter-scourge-in-spvp

>

> well here some who can

Thanks, but I don't enjoy being a pew-pew ranger. And we dueled in the free-for-all arena in the lobby, so 1500 range was out of the question. Like I said, we played for fun, but the condi spam is indeed annoying to say the least. If it doesn't bother you in the slightest, no need to shame others for at least trying find solutions to a growing issue. I was looking for a loophole with him, did my best to stay away from Druid meta because I'm not a fan of the meta game, but came up short because I couldn't kite after clearing his condis. With his F1-5 abilities, my friend has an armor buff (or is it? I don't remember, lol) that converts damage into health. So, the only one who defeated him was a Scourge who outspammed him. >.<

 

[mulzi.8273]

Most of a scourges condi damage come from corrupting boons. I know people hate to change their uber builds, but if you tweak your traits so your build does not auto-create boons, the scourge will have nothing to corrupt, and wont be able to put all those condis on you. I laugh when i see an ele, rev, etc come at me with 7+ boons on them. Do they not realize that once those 7 boons are corrupted, thats 7 condis on them? And if they didnt have those 7 boons, the best i can do is put torment on them (and a weak cover condi)? The smart ones can face tank me if they don't have boons I can corrupt, that's were the ultimate condi pressure comes from.

 

the issue is when folks coordinate with a scourge, like FB, and people spend time pounding on the FB leaving the scourge free to create havoc. That, and some folks share boons with others, which indirectly kills them when a scourge is around.

[Ganathar.4956]

> @"mulzi.8273" said:

> Most of a scourges condi damage come from corrupting boons. I know people hate to change their uber builds, but if you tweak your traits so your build does not auto-create boons, the scourge will have nothing to corrupt, and wont be able to put all those condis on you. I laugh when i see an ele, rev, etc come at me with 7+ boons on them. Do they not realize that once those 7 boons are corrupted, thats 7 condis on them? And if they didnt have those 7 boons, the best i can do is put torment on them (and a weak cover condi)? The smart ones can face tank me if they don't have boons I can corrupt, that's were the ultimate condi pressure comes from.

>

> the issue is when folks coordinate with a scourge, like FB, and people spend time pounding on the FB leaving the scourge free to create havoc. That, and some folks share boons with others, which indirectly kills them when a scourge is around.

 

It's funny how you specifically mention rev and ele. They are considered the most useless PvP classes for a reason you know. It's because scourge defines the meta. Every team has at least 1 scourge. Don't laugh at gimped classes that have no good options against your scourge please.

[Crinn.7864]

> @"mulzi.8273" said:

> Most of a scourges condi damage come from corrupting boons.

 

This is completely false.