Fun or Ordeal?

[Coulter.2315]

> @Ohoni.6057 said:

> > @TexZero.7910 said:

> > > @Ohoni.6057 said:

> > > > @TexZero.7910 said:

> > > > Stun Breakers - Tool tip on the skill

> > > > Condi Cleanse - Tool tip on the skill

> > > > Interrupts - Literally on the skill again

> > > > Combo Fields (and their potential common interactions) - Literally on the skill, and real world gameplay

> > > > Breakbars - HoT act 1 with the cavalier and the NPC who yells at you to stun it or get out of the way.

> > >

> > >

> > > Your answers sort of prove my point. The tooltips for abilities sometimes vaguely describe what they do, and that may be good enough for you or me, but the game never actually *explains* to the player, either explicitly or implicitly, when and how these abilities are best used. Players are expected to figure this all out themselves. You might know that an ability *is* a stunbreak or *can* interrupt, but you have to figure out the best ways to apply them.

> > >

> > > > Also, if you're complaining about story and jump chapters you've got what was coming to you. That again isnt on the game.

> > >

> > > Of course it is, when they are sold separately. Players who buy only PoF have to be treated as new players, and retaught options that they may have missed in HoT. It's like how each new sequel in a franchise still needs to explain to players how to use the basic functions of the game.

> >

> > Oh dear lord.....

> >

> > We're going to insist that people don't have a grasp of whatever mother tongue they have the game in and expect it to be a game issue now, seriously ?

> > The "GAME" doesnt need to tell you when to use any skill, the combat isn't so rigid as to require it. You can quite literally go through the game however you want without once needing to know each specific combo-field, cc or even utility skill. This isn't a Quick Time game and to treat it like such is just pandering to the wrong crowd with the wrong argument.

>

> Again, clearly this is entirely outside of how you experience a game, and you are incapable of empathizing with anyone different than yourself, and that's ok. You don't have to. You don't have to understand why other players might need these things, just accept as a fact that they *do,* and then step out of their way.

 

You're claiming the game should be balanced and designed around people who cannot/do not read. The result of this is to remove every single element of challenge or complexity. If you want to consume media which does not require reading or challenge then try some movies.

[Genesis.5169]

I feel like one of these thread happen once a week, when some one who decides not to learn the game comes on the forums and complains that he sucks because he refuses to learn the game.

 

THIS IS THE EASIEST MMO IN THE MARKET...

 

Geez any easier the game may aswell be a movie.

[Seera.5916]

> @Ohoni.6057 said:

> > @TexZero.7910 said:

> > > @Ohoni.6057 said:

> > > Yes, but what you describe there is *character* progression, and I think it's reasonable that level 80 content should be scaled for level 80 characters, but if you're going to require a certain level of *human skill growth* fro a player then you need to do a better job of training those skills than to simply fail players who don't acquire them. Nintendo games have historically done an exceptional job at this, designing content to encourage gradual skill progression and to clue players in to their full range of options, rather than just chucking them into the fire pit and seeing what they do about it.

> >

> >

> > Gonna need a real example of this. I've yet to see a mechanic not explain in any story content so prove it.

>

> . . .

>

> I'm not really sure what the answer you're looking for would even look like, you're asking me to prove a negative, "point to where there is a lack of something." Well I mean the best I could ever possibly do there is to say "everywhere," I suppose. I'll ask you the opposite question, where in this game's content does it explain to the player how and when to use:

>

> Evade (this one I'll give you, there's a mission for it in all starting zones)

> Stun Breakers

> Condi Cleanse

> Interrupts

> Combo Fields (and their potential common interactions)

> Breakbars

>

> Also, it's fair to factor into your answers that some players will play PoF without owning HoT, so any examples within HoT content is only half a solution.

>

> I do think that "Q" abilities were fairly well explained during season 3, but I actually don't recall them ever being explained in PoF, but they may have been.

 

Funny, while I was never explicitly taught about these or even read the tooltips for these, I didn't find any of the story missions too difficult based on a mechanics aspect once I got better at my elementalist (my first character was an elementalist, and most of my troubles happened right on top of the game's launch). I've found some parts to be too difficult for me and where I am with learning, but nothing due to mechanics not having been taught to me. It's all because I make bad mistakes on bosses that take me and my build too long to defeat.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @TexZero.7910 said:

>I'm perfectly able to empathize with people who genuinely have troubles with the game and express a desire to LEARN from and UNDERSTAND their mistakes.

 

That's completely agreeing with what I said. You're incapable of empathizing with people who are *different* with yourself. And again, that's ok, you are who you are, nothing you can do about that. I can't reasonably have any discussion with you on this topic because you're incapable of recognizing the opposing side's position. It would be like debating color schemes with someone who cannot differentiate red and green.

 

>Notice the difference between what your goal does, kills the community and the interactive part of the Game and contrast that to having various sites, guides, guilds and a playerbase to interact and game with.

 

Nothing I've said has anything to do with the negative consequences you describe.

 

> @Nilkemia.8507 said:

> You could also add emotes/roleplay (grey text) to this. Granted, it's not really necessary save for at least one heart quest and one or two events I know of, but as far as I'm aware, the game never even indicates these exist, or how many there are or how to use them.

 

True. I watched some video of someone attempting Lunatic Inquisition for the first time, and it was not pretty.

 

> @Harper.4173 said:

> There has to be challenge in order to have accomplishment. If you want to eliminate challenge and failure might as well make GW2 a movie. Wanting to provide a fun experience is a good goal - but you can't really make it so easy that nobody fails - otherwise the concept of an INTERACTIVE game that provides a challenge is mute.

 

Challenge is relative. What's challenging to you might be purgatory for someone else. What's "way too easy" for you might be a reasonable level of challenge for someone else. That's why I believe setting the default experience at a level you would probably find uncomfortably easy, and then if a player like yourself wanted a more difficult challenge, he would have ways to tune up that difficulty to a level he was more engaged by. That way, BOTH players can enjoy the game.

 

 

[Ashen.2907]

> @Ohoni.6057 said:

> > @TexZero.7910 said:

> > > @Ohoni.6057 said:

> > > > @Harper.4173 said:

> > > > Here's a new concept - not everyone's a winner.

> > >

> > > Fun concept, not at all relevant here. This is a game, there's no benefit to them kittening off any more customers than they have to. They want to provide a fun experience to everyone, even the ones who "aren't a winner."

> > >

> > >

> >

> > No but what they said, that you've conveniently ignored is entirely relevant. A game is an interactive medium that relies on people executing upon set interactions. Even the most basic of games Snake adheres tot his and guess what ? There's not multiple modes for that, it' has a baseline difficulty (much like GW2) that expands upon itself the longer you play.

> >

> > It's almost like if you're still unable in stories at this point in the games life, it's not the game. Maybe just maybe instead of being that guy who tries to childproof literally everything until the game is nothing but an plug and play slideshow you should advocate people actually LEARNING.

>

> I advocate people playing how they'd like to play, not shoehorning them into how *I'd* want them to play.

 

They are already able to play how they want to play.

 

Of course some approaches to play will be less successful at overcoming challenges than others. I like to roleplay. Shouting at the bad guys that Ive got you covered, while aiming an arrow at them will not lead to success in a fight. Deciding that a character should, conceptually, be able to defeat foes with his bare hands, while wearing only his underwear (in a Tarzan tribute) will probably mean failing an attempt to solo a world boss.

 

Any game requires some degree of adaptation on the part of the player to the rules and realities of the game.

[Genesis.5169]

> @Ohoni.6057 said:

> > @TexZero.7910 said:

> >I'm perfectly able to empathize with people who genuinely have troubles with the game and express a desire to LEARN from and UNDERSTAND their mistakes.

>

> That's completely agreeing with what I said. You're incapable of empathizing with people who are *different* with yourself. And again, that's ok, you are who you are, nothing you can do about that. I can't reasonably have any discussion with you on this topic because you're incapable of recognizing the opposing side's position. It would be like debating color schemes with someone who cannot differentiate red and green.

>

> >Notice the difference between what your goal does, kills the community and the interactive part of the Game and contrast that to having various sites, guides, guilds and a playerbase to interact and game with.

>

> Nothing I've said has anything to do with the negative consequences you describe.

>

> > @Nilkemia.8507 said:

> > You could also add emotes/roleplay (grey text) to this. Granted, it's not really necessary save for at least one heart quest and one or two events I know of, but as far as I'm aware, the game never even indicates these exist, or how many there are or how to use them.

>

> True. I watched some video of someone attempting Lunatic Inquisition for the first time, and it was not pretty.

>

> > @Harper.4173 said:

> > There has to be challenge in order to have accomplishment. If you want to eliminate challenge and failure might as well make GW2 a movie. Wanting to provide a fun experience is a good goal - but you can't really make it so easy that nobody fails - otherwise the concept of an INTERACTIVE game that provides a challenge is mute.

>

> Challenge is relative. What's challenging to you might be purgatory for someone else. What's "way too easy" for you might be a reasonable level of challenge for someone else. That's why I believe setting the default experience at a level you would probably find uncomfortably easy, and then if a player like yourself wanted a more difficult challenge, he would have ways to tune up that difficulty to a level he was more engaged by. That way, BOTH players can enjoy the game.

>

>

 

Only if the guy who does the harder content gets more stuff. Because if he doesn't most player would just do the easy content get everything then quit. All you would have left are the incompetent people playing your game. And now you have an entire dev staff that has the balance the game around people who don't know how to play it.

 

Man.....if anything this game is too easy, PoF is a reflection of that this is why is a ghost town, One it was super easy anyone who was competent got there gryphon and everyone from pof in like 2weeks, and everyone else a little later on and pof is mostly a dead zone now. That suggestion would make the entire game PoF in a year or 2.

[Ayakaru.6583]

> @Nemmar.8491 said:

> Seriously, i read you first sentence and almost spilled my drink.

>

> I don't mean offense, but you don't know what you are talking about. WoW is a lot easier than GW2. It's not even a contest, especially when you take into account DBM/Bigwigs, weak auras and UI customization. Mythic WoW raids are about as hard as a world boss in this game.

>

> In the questing and open world everything falls over in about 3 hits.

>

> This game most definitely doesn't pander to WoW players who are used to faceroll and get everything in one convenient NPC. GW2 is literally the opposite. Not that its for the best though.

 

Are you sure? Last time I checked gw2 is almost trivial. Even gods die like butter beneath a warm knife. I think the problem is that the pact commander is mow actually stronger than any god or dragon, just by swinging a greatsword.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @Genesis.5169 said:

> Only if the guy who does the harder content gets more stuff. Because if he doesn't most player would just do the easy content get everything then quit.

 

Hey, that's his business, I'm not going to tell him how to play. Still, plenty of content in the game already has challenge motes, and apparently some people do them. To each their own.

 

 

 

 

[Genesis.5169]

> @Ohoni.6057 said:

> > @Genesis.5169 said:

> > Only if the guy who does the harder content gets more stuff. Because if he doesn't most player would just do the easy content get everything then quit.

>

> Hey, that's his business, I'm not going to tell him how to play. Still, plenty of content in the game already has challenge motes, and apparently some people do them. To each their own.

>

>

>

>

 

And they give more stuff which is why people do them.

[Harper.4173]

> @Ohoni.6057 said:

 

> > @Harper.4173 said:

> > There has to be challenge in order to have accomplishment. If you want to eliminate challenge and failure might as well make GW2 a movie. Wanting to provide a fun experience is a good goal - but you can't really make it so easy that nobody fails - otherwise the concept of an INTERACTIVE game that provides a challenge is mute.

>

> Challenge is relative. What's challenging to you might be purgatory for someone else. What's "way too easy" for you might be a reasonable level of challenge for someone else. That's why I believe setting the default experience at a level you would probably find uncomfortably easy, and then if a player like yourself wanted a more difficult challenge, he would have ways to tune up that difficulty to a level he was more engaged by. That way, BOTH players can enjoy the game.

>

>

That's all fair and true - but what makes you think your solution is the right one?

Why not the other way around? Set the default experience at a level I'd find difficult and then if a player unlike myself wants an easier go he can lower the bar for himself. Why not do it this way? That way both players can enjoy the game.

 

[Ohoni.6057]

> @Harper.4173 said:

> > @Ohoni.6057 said:

>

> > > @Harper.4173 said:

> > > There has to be challenge in order to have accomplishment. If you want to eliminate challenge and failure might as well make GW2 a movie. Wanting to provide a fun experience is a good goal - but you can't really make it so easy that nobody fails - otherwise the concept of an INTERACTIVE game that provides a challenge is mute.

> >

> > Challenge is relative. What's challenging to you might be purgatory for someone else. What's "way too easy" for you might be a reasonable level of challenge for someone else. That's why I believe setting the default experience at a level you would probably find uncomfortably easy, and then if a player like yourself wanted a more difficult challenge, he would have ways to tune up that difficulty to a level he was more engaged by. That way, BOTH players can enjoy the game.

> >

> >

> That's all fair and true - but what makes you think your solution is the right one?

> Why not the other way around? Set the default experience at a level I'd find difficult and then if a player unlike myself wants an easier go he can lower the bar for himself. Why not do it this way? That way both players can enjoy the game.

>

 

That'd work fine too.

[IndigoSundown.5419]

> @Nemmar.8491 said:

> > @"Teofa Tsavo.9863" said:

> > > @IndigoSundown.5419 said:

> > > If there is a problem, it's that MMO's try to disguise their story elements as single player RPG's. Single player games tend to have difficulty sliders, which allow them to appeal to a wider range of player skill and desires. The MMO version is the ability to do story with other people. The problem with that is that since the MMO story is emulating the SPRPG, this generates an expectation on the part of players that they ought to be able to solo the story. RPG's are essentially selling power fantasies. Nothing puts a damper on power fantasies faster than needing other people to get through what is expected to be solo content.

> > >

> > > I don't think there's much of a cure for that. The underpinnings needed to allow for elective scaling are just not there. Maybe it would be possible to put in an option to select for number of players, then allow scaling to handle the difficulty adjustment. I don't think, though, that ANet has the time to retrofit that system for all existing story steps. Whether they could do it going forward or not, I cannot comment on.

> > >

> > > That said, GW2 story has several things I think are poor design.

> > >

> > > 1) The aforementioned penalty box in Hearts and Minds is the most egregious example. Whoever came up with that one was not in any way considering whether it was going to be fun for the player who made a mistake.

> > > 2) GW2 mobs in general tend to have very limited tactic "suites." This means that they tend to repeat the same tactics over and over and over. When at least one of those tactics is annoying, this results in highly annoying fights. Say one of those moves is a CC. If that's coming every few seconds, the CD's on stun breaks, stability, and avoidance (block, dodge, etc.) are too long, meaning the fight (against a mob that has a lot of health) leaves an aftertaste of annoyance rather than enjoyment.

> > > 3) Large pattern AoE is way too prevalent. Whether this adds difficulty or not, it certainly adds annoyance.

> > > 4) There are occasional PoV issues due to walls, getting trapped in morphing infrastructure, etc.

> > > 5) (This may well be a personal peeve.) There is too much reliance on gimmick mechanics. A little of this might be OK, but I would greatly prefer that crap be largely confined to raids and fractals.

> >

> > Absolutely spot on. I've always felt that directed path, instanced storylines were a thin veneer for inserting a single player game. Cause consoles and the obligatory " I am the ONE"

>

> That is a simplification that is simply untrue.

> Single player content in mmo's is important for those with time restraints.

>

> For example, the game that did what you want, FFXI would be completely not worth playing unless you got a couple of hours. Just the process of finding a group to level and getting to the area took you ages. And, because everything is too strong to solo, you end up having to simply stand still and camp a spot while a puller gets a mob for your group to kill.

> It's repetitive and boring. You are fooling yourself if you think that is better.

>

> There is nothing wrong with having SP and MP content. It's the way it should be. All the story content is soloable by every class, you just need to dodge and take some defensive skills if necessary + knowing what your abilities do.

 

I agree with you that having both is necessary. That said, nothing I (or Teofa) said advocated eliminating SP elements from MMO's. What I was talking about was why people expect to solo story content and complain if they find they cannot. So, I'm not sure how your response applies to what I posted.

[Kalibri.5861]

> @Ohoni.6057 said:

> > @Kalibri.5861 said:

> > I only challenge 'lowest common denominator' because if you try to balance against that then you'll constantly be chasing it. Truly though, I'd be surprised if your numbers weren't broadly reflective of current story instance completion statistics. Eater of Souls and end boss fights might be an anomaly.

>

> Possibly true, but then those anomalies can be hard walls in some cases. Smoothing them out is important too. Again though, I saw "lowest common denominator" on the assumption that we're all taking the thought experiment seriously, that we aren't looking to play reductio ad absurdum on it, so it doesn't "literally" mean the lowest possible state, but rather "the lowest state that a reasonable amount of well-meaning players could genuinely find themselves in."

 

Yes, I understand. But I suspect you'd eventually end up chasing the falling bar of gameplay straight to the bottom of the fun barrel. There has to be a certain degree of challenge, and I really think we're in the right place. Someone will always complain, but the story just isn't hard, man. Players have every tool they need to be able to solo story content if they care to consider their situation. I mean, the guy's playing an elementalist - one of the most capable classes in the game.

 

At some point, you have to ask people to try. Wilful ignorance gets you nowhere. Again, I don't like it, but I'd accept a difficulty slider if it reduced rewards.

[Mahou.3924]

> @Kalibri.5861 said:

> > @Ohoni.6057 said:

> > > @Kalibri.5861 said:

> > > I only challenge 'lowest common denominator' because if you try to balance against that then you'll constantly be chasing it. Truly though, I'd be surprised if your numbers weren't broadly reflective of current story instance completion statistics. Eater of Souls and end boss fights might be an anomaly.

> >

> > Possibly true, but then those anomalies can be hard walls in some cases. Smoothing them out is important too. Again though, I saw "lowest common denominator" on the assumption that we're all taking the thought experiment seriously, that we aren't looking to play reductio ad absurdum on it, so it doesn't "literally" mean the lowest possible state, but rather "the lowest state that a reasonable amount of well-meaning players could genuinely find themselves in."

>

> Yes, I understand. But I suspect you'd eventually end up chasing the falling bar of gameplay straight to the bottom of the fun barrel. There has to be a certain degree of challenge, and I really think we're in the right place. Someone will always complain, but the story just isn't hard, man. Players have every tool they need to be able to solo story content if they care to consider their situation. **I mean, the guy's playing an elementalist - one of the most capable classes in the game.**

>

> At some point, you have to ask people to try. Wilful ignorance gets you nowhere. Again, I don't like it, but I'd accept a difficulty slider if it reduced rewards.

 

Most capable if you know what to do. I can't get in terms with my Ele. I've completed, for example, Hearts and Minds with all but three characters (for different reasons), but my Elementalist is still causing problems. Heck, I managed to wriggle my way through with an (Condi) FT Engineer and a Condi DD (both are classes I usually am bad with, mind you), but it just won't work for my poor little Elementalist. Don't get me wrong, though; I'm completely aware that this is a player (skill) issue. But in this case, the "one of the most capable classes in the game" could not help my (lazy) unskilled self.

[Ellisande.5218]

> @Kalibri.5861 said:

> > @Ohoni.6057 said:

> > > @TexZero.7910 said:

> > > > @Ohoni.6057 said:

> > > > > @TexZero.7910 said:

> > > > > > @Ohoni.6057 said:

> > > > > > > @Harper.4173 said:

> > > > > > > Here's a new concept - not everyone's a winner.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Fun concept, not at all relevant here. This is a game, there's no benefit to them kittening off any more customers than they have to. They want to provide a fun experience to everyone, even the ones who "aren't a winner."

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > No but what they said, that you've conveniently ignored is entirely relevant. A game is an interactive medium that relies on people executing upon set interactions. Even the most basic of games Snake adheres tot his and guess what ? There's not multiple modes for that, it' has a baseline difficulty (much like GW2) that expands upon itself the longer you play.

> > > > >

> > > > > It's almost like if you're still unable in stories at this point in the games life, it's not the game. Maybe just maybe instead of being that guy who tries to childproof literally everything until the game is nothing but an plug and play slideshow you should advocate people actually LEARNING.

> > > >

> > > > I advocate people playing how they'd like to play, not shoehorning them into how *I'd* want them to play.

> > >

> > > No, you advocate literally watering down content to the lowest possible denominator and have said as much in this very thread.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Yes, same thing. Keep in mind that I also advocate allowing *options* for players to increase difficulty that *want* that experience, but yes, the lowest available denomination for should be for the lowest common denominator.

>

> The lowest common denominator is to load into a map and literally not do anything. You don't balance difficulty against the lowest common denominator. The game should be challenging, and at some point, there has to be a place for 'get good'. Finding the difficulty balance is hard in an MMO, but I wouldn't be entirely against a difficulty slider for instances if the rewards were tempered accordingly. I don't actually like the idea, but I also know that some players simply don't want to be challenged.

 

That isn't the lowest common denominator. That is just someone whose interest in the game has waned to the point where even the thought of doing something turns them off. You see this happen a lot with people who are burned out from grinding.

 

The lowest common denominator would be those with the least skill, not those with a negative motivation to play.

 

What a game should be is an extremely subjective opinion that changes from person to person, from day to day and from hour to hour. Sometimes you want the game to be X, sometimes Y, sometimes Z. Having the game ALWAYS be one thing is a recipe for disaster as players will burn out. Having constant high challenge isn't fun, having everything worth getting be behind an unnecessary difficulty wall isn't fun. Having no challenge all the time isn't fun either (for some). There has to be a mix of content offering differing levels of challenge rather than a balance and that content all has to offer equally desirable rewards irregardless of the challenge. People have very limited attention spans and having things always be the same bores them or burns them out. This is why MMOs see large declines in players after a few weeks or months after launch of the game itself or after the launch of a major content update.

 

If you are a person who says that they want challenge but then turns around and says, "I wouldn't be entirely against a difficulty slider for instances if the rewards were tempered accordingly" then I know you are straight up lying. If you really wanted challenge then the challenge WOULD be the reward for you because the challenge is the thing you are claiming you want.

[pah.4931]

GW2 only issue (in this regard) is that its difficulty is all over the place., without warning and without much information as to what the hell just happened when things get hard. Many times, encounters are huge cluster-eff-words and then you die... sometimes there are big red angry circles on the ground but other times there aren't. Some story instances are complete jokes and others are very difficult (again without warning and without much help on WHY you are failing).

 

Players are conditioned to a relaxing, laid-back experience and then all of a sudden it's hard as balls. It's not a great experience. It's not really a l2p or get gud issue ... it's how the difficulty varies so wildly in the same "modes" that gets hard. You never really know when you're going to faceroll or get rolled.

[Kalibri.5861]

> @Ellisande.5218 said:

> > @Kalibri.5861 said:

> > > @Ohoni.6057 said:

> > > > @TexZero.7910 said:

> > > > > @Ohoni.6057 said:

> > > > > > @TexZero.7910 said:

> > > > > > > @Ohoni.6057 said:

> > > > > > > > @Harper.4173 said:

> > > > > > > > Here's a new concept - not everyone's a winner.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Fun concept, not at all relevant here. This is a game, there's no benefit to them kittening off any more customers than they have to. They want to provide a fun experience to everyone, even the ones who "aren't a winner."

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > No but what they said, that you've conveniently ignored is entirely relevant. A game is an interactive medium that relies on people executing upon set interactions. Even the most basic of games Snake adheres tot his and guess what ? There's not multiple modes for that, it' has a baseline difficulty (much like GW2) that expands upon itself the longer you play.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > It's almost like if you're still unable in stories at this point in the games life, it's not the game. Maybe just maybe instead of being that guy who tries to childproof literally everything until the game is nothing but an plug and play slideshow you should advocate people actually LEARNING.

> > > > >

> > > > > I advocate people playing how they'd like to play, not shoehorning them into how *I'd* want them to play.

> > > >

> > > > No, you advocate literally watering down content to the lowest possible denominator and have said as much in this very thread.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > Yes, same thing. Keep in mind that I also advocate allowing *options* for players to increase difficulty that *want* that experience, but yes, the lowest available denomination for should be for the lowest common denominator.

> >

> > The lowest common denominator is to load into a map and literally not do anything. You don't balance difficulty against the lowest common denominator. The game should be challenging, and at some point, there has to be a place for 'get good'. Finding the difficulty balance is hard in an MMO, but I wouldn't be entirely against a difficulty slider for instances if the rewards were tempered accordingly. I don't actually like the idea, but I also know that some players simply don't want to be challenged.

>

> That isn't the lowest common denominator. That is just someone whose interest in the game has waned to the point where even the thought of doing something turns them off. You see this happen a lot with people who are burned out from grinding.

>

> The lowest common denominator would be those with the least skill, not those with a negative motivation to play.

>

> What a game should be is an extremely subjective opinion that changes from person to person, from day to day and from hour to hour. Sometimes you want the game to be X, sometimes Y, sometimes Z. Having the game ALWAYS be one thing is a recipe for disaster as players will burn out. Having constant high challenge isn't fun, having everything worth getting be behind an unnecessary difficulty wall isn't fun. Having no challenge all the time isn't fun either (for some). There has to be a mix of content offering differing levels of challenge rather than a balance and that content all has to offer equally desirable rewards irregardless of the challenge. People have very limited attention spans and having things always be the same bores them or burns them out. This is why MMOs see large declines in players after a few weeks or months after launch of the game itself or after the launch of a major content update.

>

> If you are a person who says that they want challenge but then turns around and says, "I wouldn't be entirely against a difficulty slider for instances if the rewards were tempered accordingly" then I know you are straight up lying. If you really wanted challenge then the challenge WOULD be the reward for you because the challenge is the thing you are claiming you want.

 

Uhhh, okay, for some reason you seem to think I'm implying all content should require the same level of skill, which is not what I think and not what I said. I'm specifically referring to story instance content. My point is that if you try to balance for the 'lowest common denominator', you're going to be chasing the gameplay into the ground because there's always going to be someone who complains about it being too hard. We're entertaining this thread as if it's a very common issue. Ohoni mentioned average completion rates he'd like to see story content balanced around, and I'd be surprised if we weren't already there. If so, this is kinda moot.

 

The slider thing was not my idea. My point was that if someone wanted to vary their difficulty, then whatever, but they shouldn't get the same rewards as someone who does more difficult work. This is a fundamental rewards concept and I'm not sure why you're arguing with it. Challenge may be satisfying in its own way, but in the context of an RPG, it is not a reward. Your false equivalency is ridiculous, and you shouldn't call people liars just because you don't understand or agree with them.

[Hypnowulf.7403]

I wanted to bump this as it's been banging around in the back of my head.

 

There are problems I have with Guild Wars 2 (such as certain races being narratively stunted and having too little agency), but the biggest was that it simply wasn't fun to play. It was too grindy, and required too much min-maxing to get something even workable. I started playing ESO and it was like night and day, it plays like ArenaNet promised but it's not GW2.

 

I think GW2 is in a place where it's just not fun for a lot of casual players. That's why I bounced off of it. I feel they're going to lose more and more casuals that way.

[Zaklex.6308]

> @"Healix.5819" said:

> > @Coulter.2315 said:

> > Look what happened with the Eater of Souls, people had absolutely no clue they should interupt the drain cast, just awful levels of game literacy which need improved.

>

> ArenaNet doesn't actually want to teach people. If they did, that boss would have paused for 10 seconds with a break bar, a background NPC would have commented on it, and if you failed, you would have been instantly downed. As it originally was, you had 1s to break it and the drain could kill you within seconds. Increasing the difficulty isn't going to teach the majority of players, they'll simply stop playing when it's no longer fun.

 

Um, it's to bad you can't replay that story instance as it originally was...because you were told what to do to defeat the Eater of Souls, in both text and verbal, you just had to pay attention, but most players are to lazy to do so, therefore it got nerfed instead.

[battledrone.8315]

> @"pah.4931" said:

> GW2 only issue (in this regard) is that its difficulty is all over the place., without warning and without much information as to what the hell just happened when things get hard. Many times, encounters are huge cluster-eff-words and then you die... sometimes there are big red angry circles on the ground but other times there aren't. Some story instances are complete jokes and others are very difficult (again without warning and without much help on WHY you are failing).

>

> Players are conditioned to a relaxing, laid-back experience and then all of a sudden it's hard as balls. It's not a great experience. It's not really a l2p or get gud issue ... it's how the difficulty varies so wildly in the same "modes" that gets hard. You never really know when you're going to faceroll or get rolled.

 

yep, i have NEVER played an mmo , where the difficulty is so inconsistent

add in the variables of player skill and class, and you have a volatile mix

[costepj.5120]

 

> @"Hypnowulf.7403" said:

> I wanted to bump this as it's been banging around in the back of my head.

>

> There are problems I have with Guild Wars 2 (such as certain races being narratively stunted and having too little agency), but the biggest was that it simply wasn't fun to play. It was too grindy, and required too much min-maxing to get something even workable. I started playing ESO and it was like night and day, it plays like ArenaNet promised but it's not GW2.

>

> I think GW2 is in a place where it's just not fun for a lot of casual players. That's why I bounced off of it. I feel they're going to lose more and more casuals that way.

 

I have played thousands of hours in GW2 without doing anything I consider grinding or min/maxing. None of my characters follow any discernible build, but I have fun playing them all.

 

[Maulclaw.4365]

Star Wars: The Old Republic has three major settings for its instances: Story, Veteran, and Master.

 

Story is a breeze, it allows the players to complete each major quest with little to no issues, giving them time to breathe and let the story flow. Veteran is when things get hard. Not only does it provide the players with a challenge, it also opens a new door for achievements and tricky mechanics. Master pretty much almost treats it like a dungeon at that point.

 

I think Guild Wars 2 could benefit from a system similar to this. If they have the tech to revamp the Personal Story and remove crucial animations from our characters, they could surely tweak story instances to fit into most players' wishes.

[juhani.5361]

> @"RandomWolf.3986" said:

> Star Wars: The Old Republic has three major settings for its instances: Story, Veteran, and Master.

>

> Story is a breeze, it allows the players to complete each major quest with little to no issues, giving them time to breathe and let the story flow. Veteran is when things get hard. Not only does it provide the players with a challenge, it also opens a new door for achievements and tricky mechanics. Master pretty much almost treats it like a dungeon at that point.

>

> I think Guild Wars 2 could benefit from a system similar to this. If they have the tech to revamp the Personal Story and remove crucial animations from our characters, they could surely tweak story instances to fit into most players' wishes.

 

I have to say, despite all of KOTFEET's problems, the difficulty settings were one of the best things to happen to SWTOR. I'd love to see something like this implemented with story instances in GW2. I don't usually play story for rewards, so a lesser award for completing an instance/episode wouldn't mean much to me one way or the other if I wanted to play easy mode. And it's not like the rewards are that spectacular anyway.

 

The other thing that SWTOR did well with FEET was to include repair/vendor droids everywhere, so if you did somehow die, you could repair your armor within the instance and keep going without risk. The first part of PoF, I thought GW2 had done something similar. I'd never been so ecstatic-- finally!-- to see a repair bench right after the Herald fight. I was hoping it was a new feature, but instead it was a one-off because Anet had recycled the raptor village assets :p

 

> @"pah.4931" said:

> GW2 only issue (in this regard) is that its difficulty is all over the place., without warning and without much information as to what the hell just happened when things get hard. Many times, encounters are huge cluster-eff-words and then you die... sometimes there are big red angry circles on the ground but other times there aren't. Some story instances are complete jokes and others are very difficult (again without warning and without much help on WHY you are failing).

>

> Players are conditioned to a relaxing, laid-back experience and then all of a sudden it's hard as balls. It's not a great experience. It's not really a l2p or get gud issue ... it's how the difficulty varies so wildly in the same "modes" that gets hard. You never really know when you're going to faceroll or get rolled.

 

Yep, this is another big problem. Not to mention that in several gimmick boss fights, the timing gets tighter and tighter until it's near impossible if you're carpal tunnel-y and have reflexes of lead like yours truly. The crystal thingie in Glint's Lair was probably the most egregious example. I'd gone through three (?) four (?) iterations of the mechanic, only to get stumped on the last time after time after time. Took me about five minutes to get the thing down when it was at 2% health because my reflexes suck.

 

And another thing that frankly makes story instances so frustrating is the horrible pacing and length. It's the same problem that plagues SWTOR's later content as well. You've got adrenaline adrenaline adrenaline for a long time followed by long scenes of dialog dialog dialog that launch you right into another boss battle. So you don't actually get a chance to take a mental break and reset your inner zen. TBH, I found the Eater of Souls fight dead easy, but it felt like an ordeal because it came at the end of yet another endless adrenaline/endless rambling cycle. I mean, I'd been swatted all around an arena for days getting trash talked by Big B. Then I had, what, forty minutes of dialog and scenes recounting stuff I already knew that I had to pursue by following a blurry glowbird in a dark area beset by tons of other eyebending glowies. By the time I had to fight the thing, I was exhausted.

 

Then the final two instances of the Warhound thingie and the final Big B thing came back to back after tons of annoying adrenaline involving mounts. I didn't even get a chance to collect the bouncy chest things in the corner before I was launched into another ordeal. The first attempt with Big B, I was naked while the chest and mastery points boinged in the corner of my screen like a mocking Jack Russell terrier. I'd already used all my repair cannisters in other PoF instances. I kept getting insta-killed by that stupid gimmick on the last phase of the fight because the timing was so tight. I gave up. I tried again months later after remapping every last key and skill, only to find myself too exhausted from travelling across the brandstorm parts of Vabbi and killing the multiple veteran djinns guarding the green instance marker to finish the fight. I still haven't killed Big B. All because the pacing and the structure of the environments is so unfriendly and action action action.

 

None of this is fun for me. And the story isn't good enough to make me put up with it anyway. I put up with KOTFEET's problems because the story overall was engaging enough to deal with the terrible parts. I'm running a fourth alt through Secret World Legends right now, despite loathing Last Train to Cairo, Mean Streets, and Manticore Floor 25 of the Orochi Tower with the passion of a thousand burning suns because the story is excellent. I've run Dawn of the Morninglight twice despite its hideous gameplay because the story's well written.

[yann.1946]

It is quite a difficult problem to tackle.

 

On one hand you want you're players to get better so you have a more engaged audience. What use is a combat system if it doesn't get used.

 

On the other you might bother people away.

 

It might probably be the best to have some automated difficulty slider. Altough this would probably be to hard to implement