[GC] Guild's opinion of PoF gold farming

[Djinn.9245]

> @"Nick Lentz.6982" said:

> > @Ashen.2907 said:

> >

> > > **TL;DR**:

> > > PoF cannot mechanically be profitable

> >

> > This is factually inaccurate. A complete falsehood actually. If I receive a drop in PoF and sell it, without spending coin in the process, then I have profited in PoF.

>

> That's...that's not how it works. I guess I should park all my characters at starter zone jp chests and profit from the phat loot of medallions. Fact.

>

Very true - while you can *make gold* from anything your character sells, that is not the same as making a profit. Unless you completely discount your time and think it is worthless.

[Djinn.9245]

> @jinfury.9504 said:

> > @Arzurag.7506 said:

> > > @"Silmar Alech.4305" said:

> > > In my opinion, there is nothing broken and nothing needs to be fixed. In fact, I assume it's the other way round: this all is probably intended and a fix to existing farming. Only my personal opinion.

> >

> > Some people seem to like farming simulator.^^

>

> And what will you do when you already finish admiring this new beautiful world ?! It's an mmo kitten you need all the dailes, farming and repeating content to keep people busy it's not a single player game... And eveything beside metas and material farm are getting boring fast cause you need something profitable to do and PoF offers nothing...

 

Well said.

[DakotaCoty.5721]

> @Hevoskuuri.3891 said:

> > @"Inculpatus cedo.9234" said:

> > Regardless, I'd not posted an opinion about any issue; just wondered who this CG was, and why they, more than any other poster on Reddit, needed their statement linked here, or why I should go out of my way to visit Reddit.

>

> No one specifically said their statement __needed__ to be linked here, or encouraged anyone to check Reddit for that matter.

>

> The CG is a very well-known Silverwastes farming guild in EU, and they have the experience of thousands of Silverwaste runs. Many players are interested in the data they provide, and their topic in Reddit spurred a big discussion. The OP decided to bring the same discussion here as well, for those who are interested in the subject but don't go to reddit. Many big Reddit topics have been recreated here in the past for that same reason, just like this one.

 

If I am personally posting from my account, I normally post the discussions within the forums / reddit and facebook groups so everyone can get involved if they don't use those platforms.

 

> @Djinn.9245 said:

> > @FrizzFreston.5290 said:

> > I don't think its needed for everything to be profitable. Its ofcourse needed for certain longterm goals, but PoF seems profitable enough to me.

> >

> > Then again the prospect that random treasure hunts should be fixed by making them not random seems like silliness to me. "Oh no its not profitable enough even when we use this obnoxious way of getting as much loot as possible. Make it so this obnoxious farm method actually works!" Seriously? How about making more fun content more rewarding rather than making the most boring way of playing the game rewarding.

> >

>

> I completely disagree. The fact is that there needs to be reasonable rewards for people to want to keep maps populated. That is why Silverwastes continues to be populated even though it is 3 years old.

>

> There is nothing wrong with people wanting decent rewards, and map Metas were specifically designed so player would continue to populate a map. The incentive to do the meta is the reward. Currently PoF metas are not done on a regular basis making collections difficult for players that have not done them yet.

 

Silverwastes was so perfectly designed purely by the circular design of the map and simply how easy it is to do events and gain rewards. I hope we see something like this for PoF or a future LW map.

 

> @Djinn.9245 said:

> > @"Nick Lentz.6982" said:

> > > @Ashen.2907 said:

> > >

> > > > **TL;DR**:

> > > > PoF cannot mechanically be profitable

> > >

> > > This is factually inaccurate. A complete falsehood actually. If I receive a drop in PoF and sell it, without spending coin in the process, then I have profited in PoF.

> >

> > That's...that's not how it works. I guess I should park all my characters at starter zone jp chests and profit from the phat loot of medallions. Fact.

> >

> Very true - while you can *make gold* from anything your character sells, that is not the same as making a profit. Unless you completely discount your time and think it is worthless.

 

I understand profit for anyone playing can be getting 1 copper, but in my post I should have been clearer - PoF is nowhere near as profitable as previous maps, that's what I meant to say. I guess some people on Reddit noticed this and made a comment about the choice of words I used.

[Ayrilana.1396]

> @DakotaCoty.5721 said:

> > @Ayrilana.1396 said:

> > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > > * **Silverwastes RIBA farming can generate 30-40g/hour** (based on previous work by CG & others). Requires particular methods and conversion of bandit crests to reach that amount

> >

> > Has the bolded been proven to be accurate?

> >

> > I only ask because there was a Reddit thread earlier in the year from a guild leader who regularly did the RIBA farm and claimed it to be around 20G/hr. Prices certainly haven’t increased since then. Players have a bad habit of not accounting for all of the time spent.

> >

> >

>

> https://www.facebook.com/notes/dakotacoty/cg-sw-riba-2800-gold-in-two-weeks/1582631455140649/

>

> There you go.

>

> Do note:

> The math is made on commander's efficiency, hasn't been majorly updated since PoF launched but we are planning to do that when our website goes live.

 

Thanks for the link. I’m still hesitant to believe that it’s that high but I’ll try it again post-PoF to see if there are any improvements.

 

I also have doubts about a single loop of the chest farm being completed in five minutes as I believe it to be closer to 8-10 min with mounts if very efficient. I also don’t think the chests respawn quick enough to allow more than two loops in that narrow of a timeframe when it’s normally done.

 

But again, I’m not going to make any final judgment until I’ve tried it myself. I just don’t want people to go into it thinking they’re going to be making that much but only come out with 20-25G/hr.

[Silmar Alech.4305]

> @DakotaCoty.5721 said:

> The entire philosophy of an MMO is to feel rewarded and farm content - if the content you're farming only nets you 10g an hour, over RIBA which is at 40g an hour, does that mean our community should be happy that we cannot farm PoF in its entirety?

 

You speak only for yourself. For me, farming is not my motivation to play a MMO. I never farmed for gold or material, and although I never farmed, all my characters have one or two full sets of ascended gear and I still have more money than enough. My money can be counted in thousands. I play MMOs to enjoy content together with other people. Not solo, but together. This is why I play GW2.

 

Loot is nice, but it does not drive my motivation for things to do in the game. I see it as a necessary game mechanic to provide the player with resources to buy equipment, nothing more. GW2 has so much loot to offer that it is not necessary to farm. You play the game and whenever something drops down or pops up, you grab it. It fills your inventory all by itself, then it fills your purse, and it's all you need. It's all automatic. As I said: this happened for me without me going to farm anything. I feel no need to run around in circles behind some commander tag all day long to grab additional loot. It's boring and I don't need the stuff. Farming gives no progress for my character and no progress for my player skill, it's just a treadmill that just leaves me older with a bit more stuff, but the same as before.

[FrizzFreston.5290]

> @Djinn.9245 said:

> > @FrizzFreston.5290 said:

> > I don't think its needed for everything to be profitable. Its ofcourse needed for certain longterm goals, but PoF seems profitable enough to me.

> >

> > Then again the prospect that random treasure hunts should be fixed by making them not random seems like silliness to me. "Oh no its not profitable enough even when we use this obnoxious way of getting as much loot as possible. Make it so this obnoxious farm method actually works!" Seriously? How about making more fun content more rewarding rather than making the most boring way of playing the game rewarding.

> >

>

> I completely disagree. The fact is that there needs to be reasonable rewards for people to want to keep maps populated. That is why Silverwastes continues to be populated even though it is 3 years old.

 

That I can agree with. Maybe I didn't make it clear. There needs to be a certain amount of profitability, but in no means does it need to rival on that point with silverwastes.

 

But I dont think that maps need to be populated merely on the premise of being really profitable. You might as well make a super easy farm where you get the most loot and people will work on their wealth there alone. And it won't matter what the content is. And then claim that that is making the maps popular or successful.

 

I want quality content, not quantity loot. That people are so easily manipulated into getting their loot as fast as possible is great, but changing content so that the next big thing is most profitable doesnt seem to me like a way that this game needs to head into. Instead unique rewards tied to the region is to me a great way of getting people to play content.

 

> Currently PoF metas are not done on a regular basis making collections difficult for players that have not done them yet.

 

HoT has several years of examples where people felt stuff was difficult to obtain due to players unable to use the LFG. PoF is no different. Players need to get better at making groups for these things and getting easy tag alongs where ever you go isnt necessary to be the status quo. Most metas really only need a max of 5 playes per event. And its beyond easy to get alot more than that.

[Razor.6392]

Supersede? If anything it should be just as profitable, not better lol.

[DakotaCoty.5721]

> @Razor.6392 said:

> Supersede? If anything it should be just as profitable, not better lol.

 

I'd be down for that. I'd also be down for Silverwastes getting a nerf so PoF could be better, so the flow of players move from SW to PoF, if you get me.

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

> @Hevoskuuri.3891 said:

> > @"Inculpatus cedo.9234" said:

> > Regardless, I'd not posted an opinion about any issue; just wondered who this CG was, and why they, more than any other poster on Reddit, needed their statement linked here, or why I should go out of my way to visit Reddit.

>

> No one specifically said their statement __needed__ to be linked here, or encouraged anyone to check Reddit for that matter.

>

> The CG is a very well-known Silverwastes farming guild in EU, and they have the experience of thousands of Silverwaste runs. Many players are interested in the data they provide, and their topic in Reddit spurred a big discussion. The OP decided to bring the same discussion here as well, for those who are interested in the subject but don't go to reddit. Many big Reddit topics have been recreated here in the past for that same reason, just like this one.

 

Then, perhaps they should have led with that information? It probably would have helped those unfamiliar with Reddit or EU Guilds to understand why the Guild's opinion was noteworthy. /shrug

[Tom Bombadil.6310]

The only thing i can agree on is that most meta events as well as bounties aren't as rewarding as e.g. silverwastes or HoT meta events. since i haven't participated in any kind of chest farm yet i can't really say anything about it.

Bounties:

* the scaling is great! if you have problems with it, divide into several smaller groups. you actually have to do mechanics and use your skills instead of just having other people do the hard part for you!

* not having to pick up each and every bounty is the best thing about it. with 6-10 people everyone can pick up a different bounty and you can do them one after another without having to return to the board to pick up the next one! suggesting to change that is counterproductive kitten!

[Djinn.9245]

> @FrizzFreston.5290 said:

> > @Djinn.9245 said:

> > > @FrizzFreston.5290 said:

> > > I don't think its needed for everything to be profitable. Its ofcourse needed for certain longterm goals, but PoF seems profitable enough to me.

> > >

> > > Then again the prospect that random treasure hunts should be fixed by making them not random seems like silliness to me. "Oh no its not profitable enough even when we use this obnoxious way of getting as much loot as possible. Make it so this obnoxious farm method actually works!" Seriously? How about making more fun content more rewarding rather than making the most boring way of playing the game rewarding.

> > >

> >

> > I completely disagree. The fact is that there needs to be reasonable rewards for people to want to keep maps populated. That is why Silverwastes continues to be populated even though it is 3 years old.

>

> That I can agree with. Maybe I didn't make it clear. There needs to be a certain amount of profitability, but in no means does it need to rival on that point with silverwastes.

 

I agree that it doesn't necessarily need to rival SW for profitability.

>

> But I dont think that maps need to be populated merely on the premise of being really profitable. You might as well make a super easy farm where you get the most loot and people will work on their wealth there alone. And it won't matter what the content is. And then claim that that is making the maps popular or successful.

>

> I want quality content, not quantity loot. That people are so easily manipulated into getting their loot as fast as possible is great, but changing content so that the next big thing is most profitable doesnt seem to me like a way that this game needs to head into. Instead unique rewards tied to the region is to me a great way of getting people to play content.

>

> > Currently PoF metas are not done on a regular basis making collections difficult for players that have not done them yet.

>

> HoT has several years of examples where people felt stuff was difficult to obtain due to players unable to use the LFG. PoF is no different. Players need to get better at making groups for these things and getting easy tag alongs where ever you go isnt necessary to be the status quo. Most metas really only need a max of 5 playes per event. And its beyond easy to get alot more than that.

 

It's not a matter of getting a group - why does a group want to do any content if they are not personally looking to fill a collection? For the loot. There is certain content in GW2 that gets done regularly and that content almost exclusively has loot that the players see as worth the time to do the content.

[YoukiNeko.6047]

> @Djinn.9245 said:

> > @FrizzFreston.5290 said:

> > > @Djinn.9245 said:

> > > > @FrizzFreston.5290 said:

> > > > I don't think its needed for everything to be profitable. Its ofcourse needed for certain longterm goals, but PoF seems profitable enough to me.

> > > >

> > > > Then again the prospect that random treasure hunts should be fixed by making them not random seems like silliness to me. "Oh no its not profitable enough even when we use this obnoxious way of getting as much loot as possible. Make it so this obnoxious farm method actually works!" Seriously? How about making more fun content more rewarding rather than making the most boring way of playing the game rewarding.

> > > >

> > >

> > > I completely disagree. The fact is that there needs to be reasonable rewards for people to want to keep maps populated. That is why Silverwastes continues to be populated even though it is 3 years old.

> >

> > That I can agree with. Maybe I didn't make it clear. There needs to be a certain amount of profitability, but in no means does it need to rival on that point with silverwastes.

>

> I agree that it doesn't necessarily need to rival SW for profitability.

> >

> > But I dont think that maps need to be populated merely on the premise of being really profitable. You might as well make a super easy farm where you get the most loot and people will work on their wealth there alone. And it won't matter what the content is. And then claim that that is making the maps popular or successful.

> >

> > I want quality content, not quantity loot. That people are so easily manipulated into getting their loot as fast as possible is great, but changing content so that the next big thing is most profitable doesnt seem to me like a way that this game needs to head into. Instead unique rewards tied to the region is to me a great way of getting people to play content.

> >

> > > Currently PoF metas are not done on a regular basis making collections difficult for players that have not done them yet.

> >

> > HoT has several years of examples where people felt stuff was difficult to obtain due to players unable to use the LFG. PoF is no different. Players need to get better at making groups for these things and getting easy tag alongs where ever you go isnt necessary to be the status quo. Most metas really only need a max of 5 playes per event. And its beyond easy to get alot more than that.

>

> It's not a matter of getting a group - why does a group want to do any content if they are not personally looking to fill a collection? For the loot. There is certain content in GW2 that gets done regularly and that content almost exclusively has loot that the players see as worth the time to do the content.

 

Well I don't do soutsun survival for the loot, or the Tixx tower defense, or the Mad King Clock tower. So maybe a group would like to do a content if it was fun and not for the loot?

[Ashen.2907]

> @Harper.4173 said:

> > @Ashen.2907 said:

> > > @"Nick Lentz.6982" said:

> > > > @Ashen.2907 said:

> > > >

> > > > > **TL;DR**:

> > > > > PoF cannot mechanically be profitable

> > > >

> > > > This is factually inaccurate. A complete falsehood actually. If I receive a drop in PoF and sell it, without spending coin in the process, then I have profited in PoF.

> > >

> > > That's...that's not how it works. I guess I should park all my characters at starter zone jp chests and profit from the phat loot of medallions. Fact.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > That is exactly how it works.

> >

> > Now, of course other forms of play may be MORE profitable than starter zone JP rewards or PoF, but that doesn't mean that those game elements are not profitable.

>

> I think you know exactly what they meant with what they said and are just trying to appear more clever by splitting hairs.

>

 

Not splitting hairs. Just countering a false claim as I might when someone claims that a certain build or profession is not viable (in general).

 

I agree that the reward structure for PoF could use a second look, just as I agree that some builds/weapons/professions underperform compared to others...but that does not mean that it is impossible to profit playing PoF or that all but the top builds are non-viable.

 

 

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

Regarding farming numbers: It apparently doesn't go without saying:

> there's no such thing as "accurate gold per hour rates".

All any researcher can do is to try to figure out how much _they_ can make. The most useful posts include detailed descriptions of the techniques used, in a manner that allows us to replicate across different farms.

 

That allows us to compare g/hr benchmarks, i.e. the most important criterion in deciding on a farm.

(There are other considerations: how long can we stomach each farm, are they fun, can we be as efficient in monetizing loot or are we too impatient?)

 

In effect, _Grind Coven_ does for farming what _Quantify_ does for speedclearing builds:

* They test techniques for optimizing loot drops and monetizing loot & currency.

* They practice getting consistent results from particular farms.

* Just as QT's benchmarks vary depending on the rest of your squad, CG's results depend heavily on the players in map, your person ability to monetize, and how accurately you follow their guide.

 

No "gold per hour" estimate is ever going to be "proven" accurate, because mileage will vary. The idea is to use the numbers from optimizers to benchmark the best possible and compare to how well you can replicate it.

 

****

> > > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > > > * **Silverwastes RIBA farming can generate 30-40g/hour** (based on previous work by CG & others). Requires particular methods and conversion of bandit crests to reach that amount

 

> > > @Ayrilana.1396 said:

> > > Has the bolded been proven to be accurate?

 

In the sense that [CG] can obtain those numbers? Yes. Can I obtain those numbers? Almost for sure not (I can't focus-farm for the length of time required).

(besides when have you known me to post numbers without researching? I meant to include the reddit link. Sorry about leaving it out)

 

> > @DakotaCoty.5721 said:

> > https://www.facebook.com/notes/dakotacoty/cg-sw-riba-2800-gold-in-two-weeks/1582631455140649/

 

> > > @Ayrilana.1396 said:

> Thanks for the link. I’m still hesitant to believe that it’s that high but I’ll try it again post-PoF to see if there are any improvements.

 

Again, [CG] isn't showing what **you** are going to make. They have demonstrated the best case and compared it to the best case for the known PoF farms. Your mileage is going to vary.

 

The point of including the 30-40g number is that CG obtained that and compared to their best numbers from various PoF farms. If they can't obtain 30-40g, then I think it's a fair statement of fact that PoF farms are less profitable (regardless of whether your earnings or mine hit their optimum).

 

****

tl;dr what [CG] is saying that, all things being equal, their techniques can generate a lot more gold per hour from Silverwastes than any PoF farm.

 

(That just means PoF is less profitable, not "unprofitable". And that might... or might not be good for the game that is less profitable.)

[Ashen.2907]

> @Erasculio.2914 said:

> > @Harper.4173 said:

> > The statement applies to the majority of players and is an accurate portrayal of MMO players and their motivations. It certainly applies to the majority of GW2's player base.

>

> Faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaalse.

>

> Honestly, it's kinda amusing to see that you assume you and your opinions represent something between the totally and the majority, or that you know what most players think. Really helps to put in context the old title of this topic, "a statement from GC".

>

> As Vayne would say, that's just your opinion. It's meaningless considering you have no way of proving it.

 

To be fair, it would be more appropriate for you to argue that he needs to support his claim with facts rather than claim that his position is false. By stating that his position is false you place yourself in a position of having made a statement of fact without providing evidence to support it.

[Ashen.2907]

> @Djinn.9245 said:

> > @"Nick Lentz.6982" said:

> > > @Ashen.2907 said:

> > >

> > > > **TL;DR**:

> > > > PoF cannot mechanically be profitable

> > >

> > > This is factually inaccurate. A complete falsehood actually. If I receive a drop in PoF and sell it, without spending coin in the process, then I have profited in PoF.

> >

> > That's...that's not how it works. I guess I should park all my characters at starter zone jp chests and profit from the phat loot of medallions. Fact.

> >

> Very true - while you can *make gold* from anything your character sells, that is not the same as making a profit. Unless you completely discount your time and think it is worthless.

 

Personal value of time spent is sufficiently subjective that you would be hard pressed to use it in determination of profit. The time has been allocated to playing a game, a non-revenue generating (for most gamers) proposition. I cant speak for others, but no farm in this game is profitable if the comparison is to how much money I could have generated by instead working an extra shift.

 

So, yes PoF is profitable, just insufficiently so to compete with the top farms in the game. Personally I would like to see the expansion get a bit of a reward overhaul.

[IndigoSundown.5419]

> @"Silmar Alech.4305" said:

> In my opinion, there is nothing broken and nothing needs to be fixed. In fact, I assume it's the other way round: this all is probably intended and a fix to existing farming. Only my personal opinion.

 

There's one issue with this statement. If ANet's intent was to introduce content that "fixes" farming issues, failing to fix those issues in earlier content just means people ignore the new content in favor of the old.

[DakotaCoty.5721]

> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> Regarding farming numbers: It apparently doesn't go without saying:

> > there's no such thing as "accurate gold per hour rates".

> All any researcher can do is to try to figure out how much _they_ can make. The most useful posts include detailed descriptions of the techniques used, in a manner that allows us to replicate across different farms.

>

> That allows us to compare g/hr benchmarks, i.e. the most important criterion in deciding on a farm.

> (There are other considerations: how long can we stomach each farm, are they fun, can we be as efficient in monetizing loot or are we too impatient?)

>

> In effect, _Grind Coven_ does for farming what _Quantify_ does for speedclearing builds:

> * They test techniques for optimizing loot drops and monetizing loot & currency.

> * They practice getting consistent results from particular farms.

> * Just as QT's benchmarks vary depending on the rest of your squad, CG's results depend heavily on the players in map, your person ability to monetize, and how accurately you follow their guide.

>

> No "gold per hour" estimate is ever going to be "proven" accurate, because mileage will vary. The idea is to use the numbers from optimizers to benchmark the best possible and compare to how well you can replicate it.

>

> ****

> > > > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > > > > * **Silverwastes RIBA farming can generate 30-40g/hour** (based on previous work by CG & others). Requires particular methods and conversion of bandit crests to reach that amount

>

> > > > @Ayrilana.1396 said:

> > > > Has the bolded been proven to be accurate?

>

> In the sense that [CG] can obtain those numbers? Yes. Can I obtain those numbers? Almost for sure not (I can't focus-farm for the length of time required).

> (besides when have you known me to post numbers without researching? I meant to include the reddit link. Sorry about leaving it out)

>

> > > @DakotaCoty.5721 said:

> > > https://www.facebook.com/notes/dakotacoty/cg-sw-riba-2800-gold-in-two-weeks/1582631455140649/

>

> > > > @Ayrilana.1396 said:

> > Thanks for the link. I’m still hesitant to believe that it’s that high but I’ll try it again post-PoF to see if there are any improvements.

>

> Again, [CG] isn't showing what **you** are going to make. They have demonstrated the best case and compared it to the best case for the known PoF farms. Your mileage is going to vary.

>

> The point of including the 30-40g number is that CG obtained that and compared to their best numbers from various PoF farms. If they can't obtain 30-40g, then I think it's a fair statement of fact that PoF farms are less profitable (regardless of whether your earnings or mine hit their optimum).

>

> ****

> tl;dr what [CG] is saying that, all things being equal, their techniques can generate a lot more gold per hour from Silverwastes than any PoF farm.

>

> (That just means PoF is less profitable, not "unprofitable". And that might... or might not be good for the game that is less profitable.)

 

I agree with what you are saying entirely - it is impossible to give 100% accuracy on any research that involves RNG upon RNG with variables - and definitely something we will be adding to our website, amongst other points raised here.

 

For us, we personally did runs, collected hours of researched and determined that PoF was simply not profitable compared to RIBA or even remotely close by the numbers that we can pull; this being said, not everyone enjoys RIBA, but, there has been shared concerns on the forums, reddit and in-game about the loot rewards from PoF itself and being basically 'meh' as the consensus would have you.

 

There are always going to be people that find little niche spots to farm 60g/h until it gets fixed or until the market gets flooded, but we're not about finding those types of farming since that would entail mass-exclusion (it wouldn't be feasible to have 50 man squad on a mob farming spot).

 

-----

Our website will actively keep our data uploaded once we go public with it and then people can see in full detail or in TL;DR posts about why we stay in Silverwastes but on the flip side, so desperately want to leave Silverwastes - some people suggested a flat-out-nerf to Silverwastes to bring it down to 15g/h like mentioned PoF farms, but harsh mutilation of a farming spot with no substitute would actually destroy my community, because we'd be so upset over the "what we could've had".

 

This has also been seen in communities that did AB multiloot farming - communities destroyed because they had no other focus, outside of AB multi there was RIBA, but, without RIBA there is nothing left to farm except F40.

 

`And I really want to stress: I didn't mention my guild because we're acting better than anyone, I mentioned our community because we communicate with each other to see what information we gather, the best farming methods and whether or not something is under-tuned, I am not one voice.`

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

I hope it's clear that I'm a big fan of you & your guild's efforts to figure out strategies, test them, document methodologies, and publish results. That allows all of us to compare farms and decide for ourselves which works best (I like to trade off gold/hour for stuff that keeps me entertained longer; others prefer to get the most gold, regardless of any other factors). I think it's every bit as valuable to farming as QT is for raiding efficiency, as DT is for fractal efficiency, and as some who post about market efficiency.

 

I do, however, prefer it when y'all separate out "benchmarks" from "suggestions for ANet" and from discussions about "what makes a good farm" or "how important are high gold/hour farms to this game". Those three topics are each worth their own thread, especially since the first is strictly empirical, the last is strictly theoretical, and the middle is about practical ideas that you think would benefit the game. (As much as I disagree with the specifics, I can appreciate the thought behind them and the desire to keep the community vibrant).

[starlinvf.1358]

> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> Regarding farming numbers: It apparently doesn't go without saying:

> > there's no such thing as "accurate gold per hour rates".

> All any researcher can do is to try to figure out how much _they_ can make. The most useful posts include detailed descriptions of the techniques used, in a manner that allows us to replicate across different farms.

>

> That allows us to compare g/hr benchmarks, i.e. the most important criterion in deciding on a farm.

> (There are other considerations: how long can we stomach each farm, are they fun, can we be as efficient in monetizing loot or are we too impatient?)

>

> In effect, _Grind Coven_ does for farming what _Quantify_ does for speedclearing builds:

> * They test techniques for optimizing loot drops and monetizing loot & currency.

> * They practice getting consistent results from particular farms.

> * Just as QT's benchmarks vary depending on the rest of your squad, CG's results depend heavily on the players in map, your person ability to monetize, and how accurately you follow their guide.

>

> No "gold per hour" estimate is ever going to be "proven" accurate, because mileage will vary. The idea is to use the numbers from optimizers to benchmark the best possible and compare to how well you can replicate it.

>

> ****

> > > > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > > > > * **Silverwastes RIBA farming can generate 30-40g/hour** (based on previous work by CG & others). Requires particular methods and conversion of bandit crests to reach that amount

>

> > > > @Ayrilana.1396 said:

> > > > Has the bolded been proven to be accurate?

>

> In the sense that [CG] can obtain those numbers? Yes. Can I obtain those numbers? Almost for sure not (I can't focus-farm for the length of time required).

> (besides when have you known me to post numbers without researching? I meant to include the reddit link. Sorry about leaving it out)

>

> > > @DakotaCoty.5721 said:

> > > https://www.facebook.com/notes/dakotacoty/cg-sw-riba-2800-gold-in-two-weeks/1582631455140649/

>

> > > > @Ayrilana.1396 said:

> > Thanks for the link. I’m still hesitant to believe that it’s that high but I’ll try it again post-PoF to see if there are any improvements.

>

> Again, [CG] isn't showing what **you** are going to make. They have demonstrated the best case and compared it to the best case for the known PoF farms. Your mileage is going to vary.

>

> The point of including the 30-40g number is that CG obtained that and compared to their best numbers from various PoF farms. If they can't obtain 30-40g, then I think it's a fair statement of fact that PoF farms are less profitable (regardless of whether your earnings or mine hit their optimum).

>

> ****

> tl;dr what [CG] is saying that, all things being equal, their techniques can generate a lot more gold per hour from Silverwastes than any PoF farm.

>

> (That just means PoF is less profitable, not "unprofitable". And that might... or might not be good for the game that is less profitable.)

 

 

That brings up something I don't think has gotten enough attention so far..... Why does the player base have such a significant, universal need for liquid gold? I'm asking this because Raids are a specifically odd outlier in a lot of these gold efficiency benchmarks, as it has the lowest liquid gold output for its effort cost, but also has the most accessible/low cost gear. Prior to legendary armor, what was the main incentive to do Raids from a reward perspective?

 

So the question being raised is "What do we need so much gold for"? Second to that is how historically every reward system that offered cheaper (as in gold) ascended gear got absolutely flooded with players, until the effort cost became apparent.

[Harper.4173]

> @YoukiNeko.6047 said:

> > @Harper.4173 said:

> > > @Erasculio.2914 said:

> > > > @Harper.4173 said:

> > > > The statement applies to the majority of players and is an accurate portrayal of MMO players and their motivations. It certainly applies to the majority of GW2's player base.

> > >

> > > Faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaalse.

> > >

> > > Honestly, it's kinda amusing to see that you assume you and your opinions represent something between the totally and the majority, or that you know what most players think. Really helps to put in context the old title of this topic, "a statement from GC".

> > >

> > > As Vayne would say, that's just your opinion. It's meaningless considering you have no way of proving it.

> >

> > I have no means of proving it? Do you even play the same game I do?

> > What happened when dungeon rewards were bad? Most GW2 players only ran the one dungeon that was profitable to run (COF P1). When rewards were buffed nearly all dungeons were run. When those buffs were taken away and rewards were bad again dungeons were abandoned by the community.

> > Reward driven.

> > There are a million other examples too. I've been playing GW2 non-stop since release - and I've seen the community move and shift towards profitable endeavors and away from non-profitable ones during that period. You writing "you have no way of proving it" doesn't actually mean I have no way of proving it.

> >

> > My statements are true, you're just upset that things are so.

> >

>

> But they buffed the dungeons again. Yet few clear them regularly.

> There is the possibility that people are already tired of 5 years old content?

>

> P.S. I never did run CoF P1 when it was profitable because after the first clear it was sooooooooooo boring to do it again. So I mostly cleared it once a day or once a week.

 

They buffed the dungeons again but - to prove my point - not to the point that would make them better farm-wise than other, easier to execute farms. Dungeons - although considered trivial by veterans actually require quite a bit of effort - and if the content gives the same rewards as other types of content - that's easier to do - people won't come back.

That's why dungeons are no longer in. They require more effort for the same payoff.

Yes - there's content burnout as well - but look at it this way - fractals aren't new and people run them regularly.

SW is old as hell and right now there are more people in SW than most PoF maps.

[Harper.4173]

> @Erasculio.2914 said:

> > @Harper.4173 said:

> > What happened when dungeon rewards were bad? Most GW2 players only ran the one dungeon that was profitable to run (COF P1).

>

> Faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaalse.

>

> Do you have any way of proving that "most GW2 players" even used to play in dungeons?

>

> See, again, you are taking your experience and assuming most players think like you do and feel like you do. Saying "most people do X" or "most people think Y" is very meaningless when you have zero data about what people actually do or do not do. I could very well say that all your points are completely worthless because "most GW2 players" don't play in dungeons and "most GW2 players" don't farm in the Silverwastes; your only counter argument would be pretty much repeating your assumptions that you represent what the majority thinks. It would be a very empty discussion, considering neither me or you know what the majority does or does not do.

>

> I actually thought you were in the OP's guild. It's a very similar line of thinking.

>

>

 

Considering for a long time it was the only end-game content - yes. It was THE content to do at one point and most players did it. Poorly, infrequently, but most players did it. And the data is in the game itself - if you bothered to play it. Do you play GW2 or just the forums?

I'm not in the OP's guild - but I appreciate their efforts. You have also failed to address any of my other points - mainly because you can't.

[Erasculio.2914]

> @Harper.4173 said:

> Considering for a long time it was the only end-game content - yes. It was THE content to do at one point and most players did it. Poorly, infrequently, but most players did it. And the data is in the game itself - if you bothered to play it.

 

Faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaalse.

 

Where is your proof? Where is the number of players Guild Wars 2 has, with the number of players who played through the dungeons, showing how a statistically significant majority of players actually went through them?

 

See, you have no proof. "The data is in the game itself" - hah, that's the emptiest statement I have ever seen.

 

 

[Ayrilana.1396]

> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> Regarding farming numbers: It apparently doesn't go without saying:

> > there's no such thing as "accurate gold per hour rates".

> All any researcher can do is to try to figure out how much _they_ can make. The most useful posts include detailed descriptions of the techniques used, in a manner that allows us to replicate across different farms.

>

> That allows us to compare g/hr benchmarks, i.e. the most important criterion in deciding on a farm.

> (There are other considerations: how long can we stomach each farm, are they fun, can we be as efficient in monetizing loot or are we too impatient?)

>

> In effect, _Grind Coven_ does for farming what _Quantify_ does for speedclearing builds:

> * They test techniques for optimizing loot drops and monetizing loot & currency.

> * They practice getting consistent results from particular farms.

> * Just as QT's benchmarks vary depending on the rest of your squad, CG's results depend heavily on the players in map, your person ability to monetize, and how accurately you follow their guide.

>

> No "gold per hour" estimate is ever going to be "proven" accurate, because mileage will vary. The idea is to use the numbers from optimizers to benchmark the best possible and compare to how well you can replicate it.

>

> ****

> > > > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > > > > * **Silverwastes RIBA farming can generate 30-40g/hour** (based on previous work by CG & others). Requires particular methods and conversion of bandit crests to reach that amount

>

> > > > @Ayrilana.1396 said:

> > > > Has the bolded been proven to be accurate?

>

> In the sense that [CG] can obtain those numbers? Yes. Can I obtain those numbers? Almost for sure not (I can't focus-farm for the length of time required).

> (besides when have you known me to post numbers without researching? I meant to include the reddit link. Sorry about leaving it out)

>

> > > @DakotaCoty.5721 said:

> > > https://www.facebook.com/notes/dakotacoty/cg-sw-riba-2800-gold-in-two-weeks/1582631455140649/

>

> > > > @Ayrilana.1396 said:

> > Thanks for the link. I’m still hesitant to believe that it’s that high but I’ll try it again post-PoF to see if there are any improvements.

>

> Again, [CG] isn't showing what **you** are going to make. They have demonstrated the best case and compared it to the best case for the known PoF farms. Your mileage is going to vary.

>

> The point of including the 30-40g number is that CG obtained that and compared to their best numbers from various PoF farms. If they can't obtain 30-40g, then I think it's a fair statement of fact that PoF farms are less profitable (regardless of whether your earnings or mine hit their optimum).

>

> ****

> tl;dr what [CG] is saying that, all things being equal, their techniques can generate a lot more gold per hour from Silverwastes than any PoF farm.

>

> (That just means PoF is less profitable, not "unprofitable". And that might... or might not be good for the game that is less profitable.)

 

I was skeptical because the reasons for the large jump was unrealistic in being able to be the core contributing factors. Their website lists the primary reasons for the increase to be because of mounts and crafting toxic focusing crystals. I just ran the chest farm route in about 4.5 min without opening any chests. I doubt they can do it in 5 min with opening chests. It's probably closer to 8-10 minutes. Despite what their facebook says, mounts do not increase dig speed. Being able to use items on mounts is no different than using them while running from location to location. Pristine toxic spores are required for the crystals and I don't recall those dropping on that map. That's half the crafting cost with crystalline dust being the other. Since you're opening the bags on a character well below level 68, I don't see them getting enough rares to get ectos to salvage into dust.

 

They also are not accounting for current prices which I mentioned before. On that chart they have, they have 3,873 cured rugged leather squares being sold for 448G accounting for the tax. That means that the squares had a price of 13.71 silver at the time the chart was made. They're selling for 9.95 silver now. The other items I randomly picked also had lower prices. I suggest that they take that chart and recalculate all of the numbers with the current costs.

 

I'm not saying that it's a bad farm but just that their numbers appear to be incorrect. While SW may still be more profitable than PoF, the actual difference that they're stating appears to be misleading. I just don't want this to be used to persuade players from doing potential future PoF meta farms or even saying that a potential PoF meta farm could be worse when in fact it's the opposite.

[Forum Moderator.2781]

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