[Discussion]Revamp (not update) or limit Dungeons, because they deter new players.

[YoukiNeko.6047]

> @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > @serialkicker.5274 said:

> > > @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > > > @serialkicker.5274 said:

> > > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > > > > I didn't read your thread but I'm pretty sure Anet will do nothing about dungeons ever again.

> > > >

> > > > I'm pretty sure raids and mounts weren't planned for the game either, yet we have them now, because people wanted them.

> > >

> > > Dungeons are already in game and failed as a concept. Just like esports. Both are not coming back.

> >

> > Why did they fail? Because you said so? Because you didn't like them? They were played by a large amount of people for quite some time. They weren't updated, so that's why they ended up in bad state, especially after first elite specs. If they got attention fractals or raids get, they would get popular again.

>

> I am one of biggest dungeon fans in this game.

>

> > @YoukiNeko.6047 said:

> > > @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > > > @serialkicker.5274 said:

> > > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > > > > I didn't read your thread but I'm pretty sure Anet will do nothing about dungeons ever again.

> > > >

> > > > I'm pretty sure raids and mounts weren't planned for the game either, yet we have them now, because people wanted them.

> > >

> > > Dungeons are already in game and failed as a concept. Just like esports. Both are not coming back.

> >

> > How can you be so sure?

>

> They barely release any raids or fractals. They have no resources to create anything that's not a gemstore skin.

>

>

 

You never know. But yeah most likely they will never do anything about the dungeons.

[serialkicker.5274]

> @Cyninja.2954 said:

> > @Lipzipper.3160 said:

> > I know I know, you've heard it before.

> >

> > "Update dungeons ANET kitten, kitten¤"#% ! etc..

> >

> > No!

> >

> > Don't update dungeons, revamp them.

> >

>

> Tomato tomaato.

>

> I get it, you want to disarm people who are about to rush in and scream and not take the topic seriously, stating something like this does none of that. This is basic presentation stuff, if you are aware that people have heard it before, don't make them hear it again. The fact that you rephrase the term update to revamp shows you know how a thesaurus works, it hardly creates the groundbreaking difference in thematic approach which would be needed.

>

> > @Lipzipper.3160 said:

> > - I want dungeons to be valid and for them to have a reason to exist in the game for players who have unlocked all skins.

>

> You have not yet shown that dungeons are not valid. As far as I can tell they are good gold per hour, provide an abundance of unique skins as well as end game runes and sigils (rune of nightmare for some condi builds as an example). I'd call that pretty valid. What you wanted to say was:"You want dungeons to get run by the community as often as they got used to run in the past."

>

> > @Lipzipper.3160 said:

> > - I want rng ADDED "note that", to the dungeons by allowing dungeon gear to drop from bosses ALONGSIDE the currency and vendors. (Low drop % obviously.)

>

> More rng, I'm sure people will get right on that idea of supporting this. Wasn't one of your approaches dungeons were supposed to provide incentive for people with all the skins? What you should have said is, you want increased dungeons rewards to make the content more enticing. As is, not needed, dungeons are rewarding enough.

>

> > @Lipzipper.3160 said:

> > - I do NOT suggest new dungeons to be added. (the 8 dungeons from vanilla is enough as pillar content.)

>

> Great, because they won't. This also divides the audience which you are intending to reach even further. You are now down to people who do not feel new dungeons are needed, yet feel the need that old dungeons require a complete revamp. That's going very niche imo.

>

> I'm going to address the rest of your points simply by saying:

>

> Yes, 5+ year old content which has no work seen on it will feel dated and not be up to par with current quality of the game.

>

> Yes, dungeons could get a complete revamp/rework to bring them up to speed.

>

> No, this is not so easy and would require massive developer hours as well as new design and implementation of rewards and a reward structure.

>

> Yes, new players are left out to dry as far as dungeons are concerned. If this is to big an issue, make dungeon story lines all level 80. It's not as though a big part of the player base runs them at sub 80 anyway.

>

> Any type of work done on dungeons is competing with work which could be done on other parts of the game. As such, the cost-benefit analysis disfavors change to dungeons just as it disfavors a redesign of Living World Season 1 (something a lot of players would love to see reintroduced into the game). So it won't happen.

 

"Makes gold = it's valid" *facepalm*

[Rezzet.3614]

As far as dungeons go i suggest two paths asides from story an average dificulty path and a punishing path with reduced waypoints and respawning enemies with some of them fractal effects , add a second set of dungeon gear that requires tokens earned from hard path

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

ANet isn't going to spend any energy changing dungeons except to fix exploits or completely game-breaking bugs, not if they want to keep working on fractals (which they do).

 

> @Lipzipper.3160 said:

> Don't update dungeons, revamp them.

 

> Delete the paths, and replace them with a SINGLE "path" per dungeon that is balanced in reward and challenge.

 

ANet has released 16 fractals since November 12, 2012, that's a rate of one every 3.75 months. If you count only the new ones since the first set (and include revamps), that's 10 in the same period, a rate of one every 6 months. Gutting each dungeon and replacing its 3 explorable paths with a single new path would take at least 2.5 years (but probably would take closer to 4 years), during which time, we'd have no new fractals. And, at the end, things would be less replayable than they are now.

 

Or we can wait for ANet to release 9 more fractals (including the one next week), which is likely to take another 3-4 years (unless ANet starts speeding up the release of new instances). At that point, our attitudes with be very, very different.

[maddoctor.2738]

I see zero point in doing such a massive revamp on dungeons.

a) The dungeon crowd will complain anyway, they want new dungeons and not revamps, just take a look at fractals, they got massive revamps, yet people only count "3 new Fractals in 2 years"

b) Old dungeons cannot be monetized, there is zero reason to buy an expansion to play dungeons (especially at their normal levels), no need to use elite specs, no need to get ascended gear and so on. Anet won't get more sales by revamping old dungeons

c) Dungeons were created with the oldest possible toolset. The team that created and used it is gone. This means that a revamp isn't possible without allocating more resources than creating new dungeons altogether

d) If it requires such massive changes to "fix" them, why not make new dungeons instead?

 

Someday Arenanet will realize that Fractals cannot be monetized, as you do not need to buy an expansion to play them. Maybe you'll need to buy one of the two expansions in order to get the Core Tyria mastery abilities that work in Fractals and that's it. But if you don't do T4s, you don't need the latest meta elite specs, you don't need the extra agony, therefore you can play Fractals as a free player just fine.

On the other hand, dungeons with an expansion theme? You will be required to buy the expansion to play those. Plus Fractals require extra time to be added due to the reward system, adding new dungeons would be much easier, so it's a clear win-win situation.

[Haishao.6851]

Anet once removed a dungeon path and made it into a longer fractal. It became one of the least popular dungeon path in the game and they disbanded the dungeon team as a result.

 

 

[Meiko Isamura.6352]

Pre HoT there was an active dungeon community that wanted new dungeons. Fractals existed then too but there was a much more active dungeon community that is now dead because Anet decided to not make new dungeons with the expansions. Anet has been making new fractals its true and made changes to them, but the fractal community was never as large or as active as the dungeon one was, same with raids. Its Anet's game so they make it how they want, but looking at how dead the game is becoming maybe it was a mistake to not continue to keep existing communities in the game alive instead of trying to push players into content that Anet wants them to do. I think WvW community can relate on some level. You can say what you want about the dungeon meta and tactics, but to be a good dungeon runner you had to know your class. You had to know your different weapon skills for fields, blasts, and movement and burst dps rotation. You had to be able to quickly swap weapons and traits, and move as a team, it was a lot of precision to do. These skills are now mostly dead in the game and many players don't know much of their class. Nothing I'm saying hasn't been already said before both before and after HoT. If Anet wants to revamp the mostly dead dungeon community then make new dungeons. I agree with the OP that dungeons should give players warnings about the level requirements for them, cause they are very difficult at their "suggested" level. I don't think that anything else they suggested is a good idea. Its simple, make new dungeons or just keep doing what you are doing Anet if you like how your game is going the last 2-3 years.

[nosleepdemon.1368]

I didn't read your post OP, I was gonna, but it's long. Look, in short anything a dungeon can do, fractals can do better. They are just a way more convenient and fun way to do the whole dungeon thing. Plus they have a reward structure already setup, and a neat little tier system that enables reuse of the same levels with just a few tweaks to their mechanics. Dungeons are way too 2012.

[YoukiNeko.6047]

> @nosleepdemon.1368 said:

> I didn't read your post OP, I was gonna, but it's long. Look, in short anything a dungeon can do, fractals can do better. They are just a way more convenient and fun way to do the whole dungeon thing. Plus they have a reward structure already setup, and a neat little tier system that enables reuse of the same levels with just a few tweaks to their mechanics. Dungeons are way too 2012.

 

For me dungeons have better story, interesting monsters and are fun overall. Fractals are single dungeon encounters. Some of them are fun, most meh.

[zealex.9410]

"Skipping... It's maybe THE worst gameplay in Guild Wars 2. " And theres goes any thumbs up you may had from me up until that point. And any point afterwards for that matter...

[serialkicker.5274]

> @zealex.9410 said:

> "Skipping... It's maybe THE worst gameplay in Guild Wars 2. " And theres goes any thumbs up you may had from me up until that point. And any point afterwards for that matter...

 

So, stealth and run to the final chest is gameplay for you? You heard that Anet? Just make a long corridor, fill them with mobs and put chest at the end. People want to run, Anet! No need to waste your money and time for anything meaningful.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @serialkicker.5274 said:

> > @zealex.9410 said:

> > "Skipping... It's maybe THE worst gameplay in Guild Wars 2. " And theres goes any thumbs up you may had from me up until that point. And any point afterwards for that matter...

>

> So, stealth and run to the final chest is gameplay for you? You heard that Anet? Just make a long corridor, fill them with mobs and put chest at the end. People want to run, Anet! No need to waste your money and time for anything meaningful.

 

Skipping can be challenge itself. Some places in dungeons are clearly a "run through" part. E.g. AC P1 tunnel after gathering scepters.

[serialkicker.5274]

> @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > @serialkicker.5274 said:

> > > @zealex.9410 said:

> > > "Skipping... It's maybe THE worst gameplay in Guild Wars 2. " And theres goes any thumbs up you may had from me up until that point. And any point afterwards for that matter...

> >

> > So, stealth and run to the final chest is gameplay for you? You heard that Anet? Just make a long corridor, fill them with mobs and put chest at the end. People want to run, Anet! No need to waste your money and time for anything meaningful.

>

> Skipping can be challenge itself.

Sorry, but this is the worst joke I've heard this week.

[Lipzipper.3160]

> @YoukiNeko.6047 said:

> I would really enjoy if ANet change the combat so support and tank roles can be more useful, but without dropping entirely in the holy trinity.

> Example: A boss have hard hitting almost insta KO AOE attack, but if you taunt him and then use block/evade then the attack will only target you. Now if you are missing a character with evade your party can try to evade/block or if a healing spec is there heal the damage after the attack.

> This way we have more interesting mechanics and options instead of stack in the corner and fire all your skills as fast as possible.

 

This seems a little too advanced for dungeons I think but in raids heck yeah! Simply making taunt work on target with breakbars would make realtime dmg negation tanking much more viable. If you see the boss charging for a singletarget spell you could f.ex use taunt, soak the dmg and save that member. Even though aoe Aegis works just as well, its just not that cool hehe..

 

 

[Lipzipper.3160]

> @Oglaf.1074 said:

> I've said it before, and I'll say it again:

>

> What they need to do is add an Ascended tier of rewards to dungeons (with a relative higher cost in tokens, of course).

>

> There, now people would have an incentive to run dungeons.

 

Its not that people arent running them, because they are. The dungeons are really bugged with many events that just break sometimes, like bosses not spawning, doors not opening etc. One of the reasons i proposed the single path per dungeon is because i suspect that all those paths ended up bugging each other, but dont take my word for it.

[Haishao.6851]

> @serialkicker.5274 said:

> > @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > > @serialkicker.5274 said:

> > > > @zealex.9410 said:

> > > > "Skipping... It's maybe THE worst gameplay in Guild Wars 2. " And theres goes any thumbs up you may had from me up until that point. And any point afterwards for that matter...

> > >

> > > So, stealth and run to the final chest is gameplay for you? You heard that Anet? Just make a long corridor, fill them with mobs and put chest at the end. People want to run, Anet! No need to waste your money and time for anything meaningful.

> >

> > Skipping can be challenge itself.

> Sorry, but this is the worst joke I've heard this week.

 

And yet, there are tons of people unable to do it.

 

 

[Lipzipper.3160]

> @"Kal Spiro.9745" said:

> So your proposal is to remove content. Each path is sufficiently unique from other paths to be a different dungeon. You want to remove paths so each dungeon is one thing, and you don't want to add new dungeons. This means you want to make what is currently three different yet similar things into only one thing. This means you're trying to make dungeons more grindy because instead of doing something different when you run it three times, you would just be doing the same thing over and over ad nauseum.

>

> I really can't get past that, and since you don't address it at all the whole proposal sounds like garbage to me.

 

You are right I should have adressed this, but I do adress it indirectly by proposing that dungeon-gear drop from the actual dungeon in addition to tokens and their respective vendors. Also, if you already have all the gear from all the dungeons and you're still doing them that means you are enjoying the content. We have fractals for daily farm and casual gameplay (gameplay that does not require a long sitting.)

[Lipzipper.3160]

> @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> I didn't read your thread but I'm pretty sure Anet will do nothing about dungeons ever again.

 

Heres me hoping :*

[Lipzipper.3160]

> @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > @serialkicker.5274 said:

> > > @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > > I didn't read your thread but I'm pretty sure Anet will do nothing about dungeons ever again.

> >

> > I'm pretty sure raids and mounts weren't planned for the game either, yet we have them now, because people wanted them.

>

> Dungeons are already in game and failed as a concept. Just like esports. Both are not coming back.

 

Well, I do not wish for more dungeons, I just want the content we already have in-game be acceptably not hurting the game by fooling new players to believe the dungeon quality represent the general Guild Wars 2 quality, which it doesn't anymore.

 

Most people do not research and read about every part of the game, and they shouldnt have to either. Its a videogame, its supposed to be fun and enjoyable, not be a study. We have raids for the more hungry players, which can even be cleared in full green armor. Why? because raids promote skill and thought rather than gear dependency and useless NPC almost without any mechanics just big numbers.

[Lipzipper.3160]

> @Cyninja.2954 said:

> I get it, you want to disarm people who are about to rush in and scream and not take the topic seriously, stating something like this does none of that. This is basic presentation stuff, if you are aware that people have heard it before, don't make them hear it again. The fact that you rephrase the term update to revamp shows you know how a thesaurus works, it hardly creates the groundbreaking difference in thematic approach which would be needed.

 

----- Update to revamp is not a rephrase as my opinion is to DELETE every single event inside the dungeon maps. I only suggested keeping the maps because of the unnecessary work that building new ones bring. I do not know what a thesaurus is, ill google it.

 

> > @Lipzipper.3160 said:

> > - I want dungeons to be valid and for them to have a reason to exist in the game for players who have unlocked all skins.

 

-------- I agree with you, and I will admit this is one of my first arguments that I popped in without any real evidence. You are right and I should have read and thought about it more clearly before posting.

 

> You have not yet shown that dungeons are not valid. As far as I can tell they are good gold per hour, provide an abundance of unique skins as well as end game runes and sigils (rune of nightmare for some condi builds as an example). I'd call that pretty valid. What you wanted to say was:"You want dungeons to get run by the community as often as they got used to run in the past."

 

--------- Ive seen this in another post also; no, I do not. This post is a concern for the health of the game and as others have pointed out on this thread is that there actually are alot of poeple running the dungeons, which is also my experience.

>

> > @Lipzipper.3160 said:

> > - I want rng ADDED "note that", to the dungeons by allowing dungeon gear to drop from bosses ALONGSIDE the currency and vendors. (Low drop % obviously.)

>

> More rng, I'm sure people will get right on that idea of supporting this. Wasn't one of your approaches dungeons were supposed to provide incentive for people with all the skins? What you should have said is, you want increased dungeons rewards to make the content more enticing. As is, not needed, dungeons are rewarding enough.

 

-------- I proposed adding additional rng alongside the currency and loot because I also suggested reducing all the dungeons to one path each. This would cut the content considerably, but it's of my opinion that the quality is at such a low rate that it has no value as gameplay in the modern game.

>

> > @Lipzipper.3160 said:

> > - I do NOT suggest new dungeons to be added. (the 8 dungeons from vanilla is enough as pillar content.)

 

> Great, because they won't. This also divides the audience which you are intending to reach even further. You are now down to people who do not feel new dungeons are needed, yet feel the need that old dungeons require a complete revamp. That's going very niche imo.

 

------- I am not trying to cater to anyone, simply raise concern for the negative impact the dungeons have for leaving such a bad first impression on many players first group experience.

>

> I'm going to address the rest of your points simply by saying:

>

> Yes, 5+ year old content which has no work seen on it will feel dated and not be up to par with current quality of the game.

 

------- Obviously. I dont think that content was good even then though. When I bought Gw2 in 2013 I leveled to 80 and quit the game because of it.

I picked up the game anew in 2014 to check things out.

 

> Yes, dungeons could get a complete revamp/rework to bring them up to speed.

 

---------- Agree, but not with a rework as lack for a better phrase "you can't polish a turd"

 

> No, this is not so easy and would require massive developer hours as well as new design and implementation of rewards and a reward structure.

 

------ I never claimed this to be a simple endeavour, I am also willing to sacrifice end game development for a time for the long term benefit of the game.

>

> Yes, new players are left out to dry as far as dungeons are concerned. If this is to big an issue, make dungeon story lines all level 80. It's not as though a big part of the player base runs them at sub 80 anyway.

------ I already suggested this, as a simpler solution.

>

> Any type of work done on dungeons is competing with work which could be done on other parts of the game. As such, the cost-benefit analysis disfavors change to dungeons just as it disfavors a redesign of Living World Season 1 (something a lot of players would love to see reintroduced into the game). So it won't happen.'

 

--- I am biased here, I consider Gw2s best part to be its combat and its worst to be storytelling (especially some dialogue that has me cringe, but anyway.) I understand the want and respect it. I do think that revamping the dungeons would benefit the game more because people do play it regularly though.

If they announced LW1 tomorrow you wouldnt hear any complaints from me.

 

-- Thank you for a detailed and serious post, we both obviously wish the game good.

 

[Lipzipper.3160]

> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> ANet isn't going to spend any energy changing dungeons except to fix exploits or completely game-breaking bugs, not if they want to keep working on fractals (which they do).

>

> > @Lipzipper.3160 said:

> > Don't update dungeons, revamp them.

>

> > Delete the paths, and replace them with a SINGLE "path" per dungeon that is balanced in reward and challenge.

>

> ANet has released 16 fractals since November 12, 2012, that's a rate of one every 3.75 months. If you count only the new ones since the first set (and include revamps), that's 10 in the same period, a rate of one every 6 months. Gutting each dungeon and replacing its 3 explorable paths with a single new path would take at least 2.5 years (but probably would take closer to 4 years), during which time, we'd have no new fractals. And, at the end, things would be less replayable than they are now.

>

> Or we can wait for ANet to release 9 more fractals (including the one next week), which is likely to take another 3-4 years (unless ANet starts speeding up the release of new instances). At that point, our attitudes with be very, very different.

 

I also enjoy new content, a simple solution that I suggested is to make all dungeons be lvl 80 req for the benefit of the game, but that alone would not make such an ordeal to write a post about now would it ;)

[Lipzipper.3160]

> @maddoctor.2738 said:

> I see zero point in doing such a massive revamp on dungeons.

> a) The dungeon crowd will complain anyway, they want new dungeons and not revamps, just take a look at fractals, they got massive revamps, yet people only count "3 new Fractals in 2 years"

> b) Old dungeons cannot be monetized, there is zero reason to buy an expansion to play dungeons (especially at their normal levels), no need to use elite specs, no need to get ascended gear and so on. Anet won't get more sales by revamping old dungeons

> c) Dungeons were created with the oldest possible toolset. The team that created and used it is gone. This means that a revamp isn't possible without allocating more resources than creating new dungeons altogether

> d) If it requires such massive changes to "fix" them, why not make new dungeons instead?

>

> Someday Arenanet will realize that Fractals cannot be monetized, as you do not need to buy an expansion to play them. Maybe you'll need to buy one of the two expansions in order to get the Core Tyria mastery abilities that work in Fractals and that's it. But if you don't do T4s, you don't need the latest meta elite specs, you don't need the extra agony, therefore you can play Fractals as a free player just fine.

> On the other hand, dungeons with an expansion theme? You will be required to buy the expansion to play those. Plus Fractals require extra time to be added due to the reward system, adding new dungeons would be much easier, so it's a clear win-win situation.

 

I never wanted Anet to fix the dungeons. The dungeons themself are the instances (maps), all of the events inside can be replaced, same map, different content.

Everytime Anet recieves more money it makes me happy, and I do believe that the current dungeons are making anet lose money because new player quit before they have the opportunity to play the good content. That money is spent on development, which has been really noticable in the modern quality of the game.

[Lipzipper.3160]

> @"Meiko Isamura.6352" said:

> Pre HoT there was an active dungeon community that wanted new dungeons. Fractals existed then too but there was a much more active dungeon community that is now dead because Anet decided to not make new dungeons with the expansions. Anet has been making new fractals its true and made changes to them, but the fractal community was never as large or as active as the dungeon one was, same with raids. Its Anet's game so they make it how they want, but looking at how dead the game is becoming maybe it was a mistake to not continue to keep existing communities in the game alive instead of trying to push players into content that Anet wants them to do. I think WvW community can relate on some level. You can say what you want about the dungeon meta and tactics, but to be a good dungeon runner you had to know your class. You had to know your different weapon skills for fields, blasts, and movement and burst dps rotation. You had to be able to quickly swap weapons and traits, and move as a team, it was a lot of precision to do. These skills are now mostly dead in the game and many players don't know much of their class. Nothing I'm saying hasn't been already said before both before and after HoT. If Anet wants to revamp the mostly dead dungeon community then make new dungeons. I agree with the OP that dungeons should give players warnings about the level requirements for them, cause they are very difficult at their "suggested" level. I don't think that anything else they suggested is a good idea. Its simple, make new dungeons or just keep doing what you are doing Anet if you like how your game is going the last 2-3 years.

 

Simplified my opinion is that the dungeons are at such a low quality it deter players away from the game before they even get to experience the good content. The type of gameplay you mention can as I said be fun if everyone is in on it, but it should not be required to have to read up on guides how to defeat the dungeon. Most wipes in dungeons atm is caused by experienced players trying to force new players throught the very as you said precise gameplay, which is stale, repetetive and unimprovising IMO.

[Lipzipper.3160]

> @nosleepdemon.1368 said:

> I didn't read your post OP, I was gonna, but it's long. Look, in short anything a dungeon can do, fractals can do better. They are just a way more convenient and fun way to do the whole dungeon thing. Plus they have a reward structure already setup, and a neat little tier system that enables reuse of the same levels with just a few tweaks to their mechanics. Dungeons are way too 2012.

 

<3 I wrote about this in my post. Fractals are, and have always been the way to go onward and thats what I want. The dungeons hurt the game with their horrible quality and deter players from trying out fractals in the first place imo

[Lipzipper.3160]

> @zealex.9410 said:

> "Skipping... It's maybe THE worst gameplay in Guild Wars 2. " And theres goes any thumbs up you may had from me up until that point. And any point afterwards for that matter...

 

It is horrble, and seeing 30k achievment players with 250 mastery points flaming 100 achiev players for not knowing how to makes me really sad and it hurts the game.

When i talk gameplay I talk combat, if I was unclear. I understand why we skip, I just want us to not have a desire to and that requires a change to the game.