Sykper.6583 Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 Mai Trin was a complete 'rework' and that was of the similar vein to what you are suggesting. It's a rework both semantically and in reality. And regardless of what you like to call it, it still takes raid dev time that could be used for new stuff. Plus we've already gotten through why making a rewardless story mode is bad. No one would repeat it, thus it is wasted content. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrubySzymek.1362 Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 > @Sykper.6583 said: > Mai Trin was a complete 'rework' and that was of the similar vein to what you are suggesting. > > It's a rework both semantically and in reality. And regardless of what you like to call it, it still takes raid dev time that could be used for new stuff. > > Plus we've already gotten through why making a rewardless story mode is bad. No one would repeat it, thus it is wasted content. So is mastery system and devs still make them. There is no reason not to implement another "wasted" content because it already exists in game and people are happy with it :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pax.3548 Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 Currently I'm not a raid player simply because I don't have much free time to fully dedicate to that, Still I want to get into it at some point. But what makes this painful to me is that without a party of 10, I can't get inside that part of the underwold, can't travel around, watch the place or even try my luck alone like back in gw1 with heroes, I need ppl to nod to the idea of having me to get inside and... well I can't see that happening. Though it is logical it gets locked behind raid content, as back in gw1 underworld was the equivalent of a gw2 raid, but still :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > @Miellyn.6847 said: > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > > @Alehin.3746 said: > > > > MMOInks was right. We need the infantile mode for raids. RIDE THE CLOUDS, MY FELLOW CAREBEARS! YEEEEHAAAWWWW > > > > > > If it didn't give any rewards it would remove nothing from raiding minority :) > > > > > > After all, this is not prestigous content :) > > > > Except development time and longer release cycles. > > You don't know this :) If it didnt give rewards it would be dead on arival. Come on this is the case with everything in this game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > @maddoctor.2738 said: > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > It's not a complet rework. It's changing numbers. It's definitely easier than you make it out to be. Legendary armor is a proven waste of time and resources though :) > > > > Changing numbers won't work, if you played the encounters you'd know :) > > Less HP, no enrage timer, smaller damage numbers, longer damage / mechanic fail windows. It's all numbers and it's enough to make it into story instance, still group instance, but without rewards and no pressure :) That's a lot of development time right there :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flog.3485 Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > @maddoctor.2738 said: > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > It's not a complet rework. It's changing numbers. It's definitely easier than you make it out to be. Legendary armor is a proven waste of time and resources though :) > > > > Changing numbers won't work, if you played the encounters you'd know :) > > Less HP, no enrage timer, smaller damage numbers, longer damage / mechanic fail windows. It's all numbers and it's enough to make it into story instance, still group instance, but without rewards and no pressure :) Kitten this. I prefer to have living story updates every 3 months with some festivals in-between. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxwelgm.4315 Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 > @maddoctor.2738 said: > > @maxwelgm.4315 said: > > See post above, in GW1 you could run with guildies on a completely whacky (insofar as it's self-made and tailored for the survival of your specific party) build and still come out victorious > > You can do this in GW2 as well. You know what the problem is when you compare GW2 with GW1 in this manner? You compare pugs in GW2 with your run with guildies in GW1. Guild runs with weird builds can succeed in GW2 Raids as much as guild runs in GW1 did. > This is true, I am skewed by my experience from playing with guildies during GW1. But I'm not sure this would be the same in guild runs in GW2 either. Out of 10 squads of average players how many of them do you think would even try a boss without Chrono/Druid/Tempest? My point stands that every "tailoring for survival and properly clearing" here is going to lead to the _same_ builds with no big differences whatsoever. And I'm actually ok with this, it's not a complaint from me, just want people to realize that it _is_ going to remain like this, no matter what the Raid team does. There are no 2 ways to play Chrono and help your team, there are no 2 ways to play Druid and still help your team, and most classes have really only 1 or 2 paths you can take to actually make a difference inside of Raid content. This is OK and even though it sounds like criticism, it isn't. People just gotta realize/admit it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azoqu.8917 Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > @sigur.9453 said: > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > > @Miellyn.6847 said: > > > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > > > > @Alehin.3746 said: > > > > > > MMOInks was right. We need the infantile mode for raids. RIDE THE CLOUDS, MY FELLOW CAREBEARS! YEEEEHAAAWWWW > > > > > > > > > > If it didn't give any rewards it would remove nothing from raiding minority :) > > > > > > > > > > After all, this is not prestigous content :) > > > > > > > > Except development time and longer release cycles. > > > > > > You don't know this :) > > > > A complete rework will of course take devtime. Most likly done by the raid team. So we can be pretty sure it will. > > It's not a complet rework. It's changing numbers. It's definitely easier than you make it out to be. Legendary armor is a proven waste of time and resources though :) I'd love to see Rainbow road in easy mode with just number tweeks. The number of people that would just get sucked off the road and fall to their deaths would be way to funny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sykper.6583 Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > So is mastery system and devs still make them. There is no reason not to implement another "wasted" content because it already exists in game and people are happy with it :) I mean it's nice to deflect and all but we're here to discuss raids not your dislike towards the Mastery System. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 > @Sykper.6583 said: > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > So is mastery system and devs still make them. There is no reason not to implement another "wasted" content because it already exists in game and people are happy with it :) > > I mean it's nice to deflect and all but we're here to discuss raids not your dislike towards the Mastery System. Idk id rather have the mastery system rather than pay an npc to unlock me infinite gliding and or longer jump on raptor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sykper.6583 Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 Oh I'm not arguing against the Mastery System, I'm for what it's allowed us players to do. It's just a bit out of scope of this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewaterguy.4796 Posted December 1, 2017 Share Posted December 1, 2017 This has been brought up multiple times and its always shouted down by the so-called "Raiding Community" with condescending "Git Gud" crap, sad to say because of Arenanet refusing to even consider the idea it will likely never happen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewaterguy.4796 Posted December 1, 2017 Share Posted December 1, 2017 > @Blaeys.3102 said: > You are definitely not the only player that feels that way. A few of us made it very clear when they put the Saul D'Alessio storyline in the last raid wing that they had crossed a line. Based on some comments one of the writers made shortly after, I think they understood why that was a bad idea. We can only hope that message got through to the decision makers. > > While I would love (and have advocated loudly for many times) a story mode of some kind, the raid team leader indicated just after PoF that it isn't currently part of the plan. While I still believe they will eventually have to reverse that decision to keep raids alive long term, for now, that is something we just have to live with. > > So, what we should see next week is a hardmode raid with little to no story or heavy lore tie-ins. Any story that would be of interest to the greater GW2 community (whether it is part of the dragon or elder god story arcs or not) should be told outside of raids for the foreseeable future. Oh look! Its the underworld, a huge part of GW's lore...I don't think they learned their lesson, not as bad as the last one but still, pretty annoying considering all the "hints" recently Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miellyn.6847 Posted December 1, 2017 Share Posted December 1, 2017 > @thewaterguy.4796 said: > > @Blaeys.3102 said: > > You are definitely not the only player that feels that way. A few of us made it very clear when they put the Saul D'Alessio storyline in the last raid wing that they had crossed a line. Based on some comments one of the writers made shortly after, I think they understood why that was a bad idea. We can only hope that message got through to the decision makers. > > > > While I would love (and have advocated loudly for many times) a story mode of some kind, the raid team leader indicated just after PoF that it isn't currently part of the plan. While I still believe they will eventually have to reverse that decision to keep raids alive long term, for now, that is something we just have to live with. > > > > So, what we should see next week is a hardmode raid with little to no story or heavy lore tie-ins. Any story that would be of interest to the greater GW2 community (whether it is part of the dragon or elder god story arcs or not) should be told outside of raids for the foreseeable future. > > Oh look! Its the underworld, a huge part of GW's lore...I don't think they learned their lesson, not as bad as the last one but still, pretty annoying considering all the "hints" recently The Underworld was an elite area in GW1 and is an elite area in GW2, no lesson they could have learned there. The Gods have left Tyria and the realm of gods no longer have any relevance. The story is completly irrelevant in GW2 and the underworld was never a huge part lorewise to begin with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torolan.5816 Posted December 1, 2017 Share Posted December 1, 2017 I am satisfied with the books you find in the open world regarding some raid boss mobs who broke away from the white mantle to resurect Lazarus. I have no need to confront said drunkyards in person as someone called them here. The whole Saul story was pretty out of the left field though and I did not find much reference to it in the open world. Or maybe I did just miss it? So if Anet gives hints or retells the story somewhere in the game, I am satisfied with it. Not happy, but satisfied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vinceman.4572 Posted December 1, 2017 Share Posted December 1, 2017 > @thewaterguy.4796 said: > This has been brought up multiple times and its always shouted down by the so-called "Raiding Community" with condescending "Git Gud" crap, sad to say because of Arenanet refusing to even consider the idea it will likely never happen If people really need to "git gud" to be successful in Escort I can only imagine who was/is responsible for clearing the temple of Balthazar in Straits of Devastation, the successful rotation part of Dragon's Stand, Chak Gerent and many other events in GW2. Of course there are harder encounters in raids but you didn't start with quantum physics in primary school either... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoomborg.9462 Posted December 1, 2017 Share Posted December 1, 2017 As long as the story is irrelevant to the main one there is no problem as that is the policy anet try to maintain. I dont see how underworld raid impacts the main GW2 story in any way.... Yes some people suffer from nostalgia syndrome but that's their own problem. As for story mode. The raid team's responsibility is to provide as much quality content and as often as possible. Considering the raid developer team is pretty small there is no way, i repeat NO WAY they can create a new story mode for all wings (which people are only gonna play once and then forget it exists) without delaying the development of new raid content or bug fixing which is what they should be doing. This is not a raid-centric game with huge resources and staff dedicated to raids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrubySzymek.1362 Posted December 1, 2017 Share Posted December 1, 2017 > @Sykper.6583 said: > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > So is mastery system and devs still make them. There is no reason not to implement another "wasted" content because it already exists in game and people are happy with it :) > > I mean it's nice to deflect and all but we're here to discuss raids not your dislike towards the Mastery System. It's not deflection. It's a proof that your idea of wasted content is wrong :) > @maddoctor.2738 said: > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > @maddoctor.2738 said: > > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > > It's not a complet rework. It's changing numbers. It's definitely easier than you make it out to be. Legendary armor is a proven waste of time and resources though :) > > > > > > Changing numbers won't work, if you played the encounters you'd know :) > > > > Less HP, no enrage timer, smaller damage numbers, longer damage / mechanic fail windows. It's all numbers and it's enough to make it into story instance, still group instance, but without rewards and no pressure :) > > That's a lot of development time right there :) You don't know this :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted December 1, 2017 Share Posted December 1, 2017 > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > You don't know this :) Balance in the game also requires some number tweaks yet here we are :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sykper.6583 Posted December 1, 2017 Share Posted December 1, 2017 > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > I mean it's nice to deflect and all but we're here to discuss raids not your dislike towards the Mastery System. > > It's not deflection. It's a proof that your idea of wasted content is wrong :) > Your argument is that a Story Mode wouldn't be Wasted Content. I argued that it was given the basic parameters you wanted such as zero rewards and "simple" adjustments, and that it would be better for the devs to continue developing more raids. In a Herculean leap of logic you then decided to say that because the Mastery System is a waste of development resources (which is your own opinion and not one shared so far by anyone who has posted here yet) therefore the devs should be accustomed to creating content that is inevitably a waste of time. - You never counter-argued my point about why Story Mode might not be a waste of dev resources, you could have even suggested an alternative prospect not yet said on these forums but choose to deviate about some other part of the game. - You effectively conceded in your logic that a story mode raid **was a waste of dev resouces** since in your view the Mastery System exists it shouldn't be above Arenanet to waste their time doing story raids. It's a bold strategy but saying we should do story mode raids and acknowledging they are going to be a waste of time is likely not going to win you Arenanet's approval. I get that you really hate raiding, I get that you are frustrated or perhaps even angry that another GW1 iconic area is behind something you perceive as impossible to get into. That's fair and I hope at some point in the future you have the good fortune of joining a group of friends or strangers whom you are compatible with and actually go through all of these raids and enjoy yourself. But understand that there are going to be several folks who hold the newest raid wing as a respectable homage to the old UW, and are very excited to see it come back as it has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrubySzymek.1362 Posted December 1, 2017 Share Posted December 1, 2017 > @maddoctor.2738 said: > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > You don't know this :) > > Balance in the game also requires some number tweaks yet here we are :) The fact that balance is so slow is the matter of arbitrary decision, not a matter of time or skill :) > @Sykper.6583 said: > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > I mean it's nice to deflect and all but we're here to discuss raids not your dislike towards the Mastery System. > > > > It's not deflection. It's a proof that your idea of wasted content is wrong :) > > > > Your argument is that a Story Mode wouldn't be Wasted Content. > I argued that it was given the basic parameters you wanted such as zero rewards and "simple" adjustments, and that it would be better for the devs to continue developing more raids. > > In a Herculean leap of logic you then decided to say that because the Mastery System is a waste of development resources (which is your own opinion and not one shared so far by anyone who has posted here yet) therefore the devs should be accustomed to creating content that is inevitably a waste of time. > > - You never counter-argued my point about why Story Mode might not be a waste of dev resources, you could have even suggested an alternative prospect not yet said on these forums but choose to deviate about some other part of the game. > - You effectively conceded in your logic that a story mode raid **was a waste of dev resouces** since in your view the Mastery System exists it shouldn't be above Arenanet to waste their time doing story raids. It's a bold strategy but saying we should do story mode raids and acknowledging they are going to be a waste of time is likely not going to win you Arenanet's approval. > > I get that you really hate raiding, I get that you are frustrated or perhaps even angry that another GW1 iconic area is behind something you perceive as impossible to get into. That's fair and I hope at some point in the future you have the good fortune of joining a group of friends or strangers whom you are compatible with and actually go through all of these raids and enjoy yourself. But understand that there are going to be several folks who hold the newest raid wing as a respectable homage to the old UW, and are very excited to see it come back as it has. Don't make it personal or you make yourself look incompetent :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted December 1, 2017 Share Posted December 1, 2017 > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > The fact that balance is so slow is the matter of arbitrary decision, not a matter of time or skill :) > I hope you are joking about this and not serious. The decision to release fewer balance patches doesn't affect how long it takes to implement said patches in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vinceman.4572 Posted December 1, 2017 Share Posted December 1, 2017 > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > Don't make it personal or you make yourself look incompetent :) Well, he is more logical than personal but hey, you are not the one trying to discuss properly and using arguments. Just your own thoughts. In Germany we call this "Eigentor"! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharJC.8365 Posted December 1, 2017 Share Posted December 1, 2017 After reading so many pages of thoughts and criticism I have simply come to one conclusion, and I have to agree. A mode for all, either in adding in a mode for easier play or making all the classes viable in some way, though, I do believe all classes are viable, its just the 1% that need to stroke that e-peen and follow some persons meta as if Moses came and delivered it to them. Personally, as a owner of a company, I would much rather "attempt" to at least appease the greater whole, then the 1% that may or may not stick around. Making a mode that welcomes new people and people with disabilities, such as deafness which in turn limits the use of TS and Discord, (guilty), would in my opinion make for a much larger audience and an overall greater experience for both new and old players alike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sykper.6583 Posted December 1, 2017 Share Posted December 1, 2017 > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > Don't make it personal or you make yourself look incompetent :) http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/000/993/875/084.png Uh ok. I mean, if you consider my post 'personal' I'm not sure how to respond other than it wasn't? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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