Let's brainstorm on solutions to the population issue

[Genesis.5169]

> @"Reaper Alim.4176" said:

> > @Vagrant.7206 said:

> > > @Genesis.5169 said:

> > > Pvp is dead because this game has gone from average difficulty to casual to hyper casual. PvP is never a casual place therefore people who want it now and are used to OW facerolling will not pvp. It's not about HoT elites or power creep the vast majority of the game doesn't even know what that is. Just the same as it is in pve with raids the community is unwilling to learn and thus either neglected the content or they lobby for its removal because they choose not to spend the time to learn.

> >

> > I never understood why some people insist that elites will bring people to play. The raiding community is small. The "elite" community is always small. Neither of them inherently attracts more people to the table. While the game should be balanced for the upper echelons of play, core gameplay should be simple and easy to grasp.

>

> Core gameplay has never been more simpler to grasp then it is now. Scourge, Spellbreaker, Mirage, and Firebrand are clear examples of this. In the past you would have to evaluate your opponent actions. Currently you do not. You only have to worry about dealing as much burst damage via power or condi as fast a possible. It's all rotation based and not strategic based. That why you have bots and macros doing very well in the top 100.

 

No, i think you have it wrong, it think its a reflection of the playbases overall skill.

This game does nothing to teach you any nuanced tactics whatsoever unless you seek it out in pvp raiding wvw (solo) or fotm (cm). We have players who do not know what a break bar is in pvp, what stun breakers are that don't know what class matches are so they can't anticipate that necro bomb. The issue is a large issue of how the entire game difficulty curve is.

 

If 90% of your game is catered for easy mode stuff 90% of your player base will be adapted to easy mode stuff.

[flog.3485]

The PvP side of the game pretty much just need a 5v5 only queues game mode where people can learn their class and role in a true team environment. Solo/duo in ranked will never cut it imo so it should become solo only.

 

Unranked is the perfect place for these 5v5 only queues. That way, people can provide a more insightful feedback on what the balance should be because they will have a full picture of what is actually going on in the games without the inevitable problems that ranked games have with non-suitable teammates, afkers, cheaters and every other issues that I can't think of off the top of my head.

 

The other benefit would also be a place where people can get better and prepare themselves for future AT tournaments.

[Lordrosicky.5813]

It is a PvE game. All the power creep and passive class design is designed firstly for pve. This means none of the classes are fun to fight against because in pve that doesnt matter. This game will never be a popular pvp game and if you think it will then you are deluded. There is nothing they can do.

 

The issues are design issues and not balance issues. It is a huge difference. Also they still never put back in the tanky amulets lol. The 20 dudes who did "esports" and the 200 people who watched and cared about that stuff didnt like the tanky amulets so they removed any diversity from the rest of the game by removing them. Very funny!

[Reikou.7068]

PvP should have the highest POTENTIAL rewards in the game.

[Vagrant.7206]

> @Lordrosicky.5813 said:

> It is a PvE game. All the power creep and passive class design is designed firstly for pve. This means none of the classes are fun to fight against because in pve that doesnt matter. This game will never be a popular pvp game and if you think it will then you are deluded. There is nothing they can do.

 

If it is designed solely for PvE though, the balance sure doesn't seem to suggest it. I mean, take a look at scrapper and spellbreaker. Both are pretty bad in PvE, and their design seems solely intended for PvP.

 

[lightningz.1465]

For question no.1: more regular balance patch, and its ok when season still running. It's good thing because people will get excited and try new stuffs after the balance patch, so it can maintain the current pvp community to stay in the game

 

For question no.2: give end of season pvp exclusive reward based on the division achieved by end of season. For example if reach plat 3 people can get full pvp armor while gold 2 only head and glove armor. With this, it can attract more people (pve'rs), and give enough reason to try hard until end of season. With current reward of only a title, people doesn't have enough reason to tryhard especially when they know they wont achieve top 250.

[Lordrosicky.5813]

> @Vagrant.7206 said:

> > @Lordrosicky.5813 said:

> > It is a PvE game. All the power creep and passive class design is designed firstly for pve. This means none of the classes are fun to fight against because in pve that doesnt matter. This game will never be a popular pvp game and if you think it will then you are deluded. There is nothing they can do.

>

> If it is designed solely for PvE though, the balance sure doesn't seem to suggest it. I mean, take a look at scrapper and spellbreaker. Both are pretty bad in PvE, and their design seems solely intended for PvP.

>

 

The centre piece of pvp design is counterplay. GW2 has none and hasn't had any since the trait merge patch.

[Faux Play.6104]

> @Lordrosicky.5813 said:

> It is a PvE game. All the power creep and passive class design is designed firstly for pve. This means none of the classes are fun to fight against because in pve that doesnt matter. This game will never be a popular pvp game and if you think it will then you are deluded. There is nothing they can do.

>

> The issues are design issues and not balance issues. It is a huge difference. Also they still never put back in the tanky amulets lol. The 20 dudes who did "esports" and the 200 people who watched and cared about that stuff didnt like the tanky amulets so they removed any diversity from the rest of the game by removing them. Very funny!

 

I personally didn't think having every game go to the time limit was fun. I was neither a pro nor someone that payed much attention to it.

[messiah.1908]

few problem which will always be. there are ppl who always be disappointed by any change.

 

assume we have every 2 weeks new patch still some ppl will hate the nerf on their new easy mode class. and will have to adjust during the season.

 

so my suggestion are:

 

more easy visibility on our record and track of progress of our mmr ad other mmr. to see ingame which tier i fight with and against and also their mmr.

 

more visibility which class are popular every week and which amulet. this will give the community an idea what is happening. and which class or build gonna be adjusted soon.

 

ppl with higher MMR which duaQ with low tier like 500 less will consider teachers if they choose too. thus will benefit them with more gold, unique tag etc... in unranked.

this will give new ppl the ability to learn the game.

 

ingame voice chat. will improve the communication.

 

build diversity. really enable each class to adjust each role. bunker, healer, dmg

 

enable core build to be more effective and par with elite ones. the main difference will be the elite will enable to fill more roles.

 

newcomers will have to attend more unranked fights before able to get into ranked.

 

give new points in ranked even if you lost.

 

 

 

 

[Aeolus.3615]

Balance pve towards pvp combat.... tune mobs for that, its actually the pve that is hurting the other gamemodes.

 

More metas would apear probably, more freedom on play style, rather than 1 suboptimal gimmicks meta.

 

That would probably put more players into the pve and pvp as well.

[verskore.4312]

I know how to start, maybe Anet could start using their brains and adjust (not saying nerf) the classes that are ridiculously ez and op atm? (yes im looking at you scourge)

Pretty much everybody in my guild has given up on pvp just cus of the cancerous condifest it is!

[maddoctor.2738]

> So two questions raise:

> 1. How can we increase the pool of PvP-players by attracting GW2-players?

> 2. How can we increase the pool of PvP-players by attracting non-GW2-players?

 

Both have a simple answer: remove PoF elite specs from the game. The game just before PoF dropped was at its most balanced state since forever. Not perfect by any means but at least not what we got now. This will help with your questions in the following way:

 

1) GW2 players won't leave the game when they fight against specs that are not fun to play against

2) New players will play the free version and see that they are competitive in some way and not get obliterated, at the moment the game is clear P2W for free and core (and HoT) players.

[Exciton.8942]

1. More PvP mode than just conquest. It doesn't even need to be competitive. But needs to be much simpler than stronghold.

 

2. More frequent balance update. Reduce power creep. PoF brings in 9 new elite specs. In principle, it should help improve diversity. However, due to another round of powercreep. It reduced diversity as a result.

[BurrTheKing.8571]

We need massive power reduction across the board to make PvP interesting again.

 

1. Too many traits are "must have" because the alternatives are flat out weak. In some cases the weaker options need buffs, but in many cases the strongest option needs a nerf.

2. There are a ton of boring traits that do nothing but increase stats. As an aside, Necro actually has a ton of cool traits but they never get used because the alternatives are too damn good.

3. Balance patches are too infrequent. I'm fine with mid season changes, just test the changes on unranked for a week first if that's technically possible. Or have a test browser.

4. Consider a PvP only F2P browser. Couple this with a reward system redesign that focuses on cosmetics. Allow purchases of skins from the gem store obviously. You could leave the current reward tracks for everyone else.

5. No more 5 second decaps, and larger points to increase visibility. In addition, make the capture system like Battlefield where the team with more players on point starts to slowly capture it. This makes bunkers less powerful because they can't contest a 2v1 forever. They'll still be able to be powerful in 1v1s especially if they have enough time to actually get to the point and defend. This will also place more importance on team fights. Pushing far at the start will be a bad choice in most situations because unless your team gets a early stomp they'll lose the point due to being outnumbered.

[Lordrosicky.5813]

> @"Faux Play.6104" said:

> > @Lordrosicky.5813 said:

> > It is a PvE game. All the power creep and passive class design is designed firstly for pve. This means none of the classes are fun to fight against because in pve that doesnt matter. This game will never be a popular pvp game and if you think it will then you are deluded. There is nothing they can do.

> >

> > The issues are design issues and not balance issues. It is a huge difference. Also they still never put back in the tanky amulets lol. The 20 dudes who did "esports" and the 200 people who watched and cared about that stuff didnt like the tanky amulets so they removed any diversity from the rest of the game by removing them. Very funny!

>

> I personally didn't think having every game go to the time limit was fun. I was neither a pro nor someone that payed much attention to it.

 

Well removing entire play styles/possible builds because their class design is so horrendous that it lead to such gameplay is just a lazy fix that doesnt actually fix anything. The reality is that the original devs made a game where there was a ton of give and take in building your character. That is a staple in almost EVERY successful pvp game. The new devs just threw all that great design out of the window and allowed every build to do everything. They merged 3 traits into 1 and let you take even more traits. It meant there is a huge power creep and that resulted in a total fail of a game that is now dead in pvp.

 

Many people, including me, warned them that this would happen. Anet ignored it but now they must know we were right when they look at the awful population this game currently has.

[Lordrosicky.5813]

> @verskore.4312 said:

> I know how to start, maybe Anet could start using their brains and adjust (not saying nerf) the classes that are ridiculously ez and op atm? (yes im looking at you scourge)

> Pretty much everybody in my guild has given up on pvp just cus of the cancerous condifest it is!

 

Not going to happen. To fix the lameness and power creep in all classes would require a complete trait overhaul which will never happen because of PvE. That is why anybody tryharding or caring about a pvp element of a pve game is deluded.

 

If anyone here wants to do serious pvp then why are you playing gw2? That is the real question.

[witcher.3197]

Idk, crazy thought: maybe balance the game around people smarter than a chair? :) Anet could hire outside help as well if that's too high level for them.

[Josre.5924]

> @Aeolus.3615 said:

> Balance pve towards pvp combat.... tune mobs for that, its actually the pve that is hurting the other gamemodes.

>

> More metas would apear probably, more freedom on play style, rather than 1 suboptimal gimmicks meta.

>

> That would probably put more players into the pve and pvp as well.

 

Yup, thats how Gw1 was initially and for the first couple years. The PvE mobs all used skills from the same skill-pool as player classes, and many of their builds resembled player builds (and groups of mobs were often made with their builds working together as players would). And balance patches would impact both modes, so the PvE players and PvP players would both notice and be annoyed by something that was under or overperforming, because they'd be using it and be fighting against it.

 

Not many people seem to remember any of this...not sure how many players are left from those days and I'm sure much of the dev team has turned over and has different ideas possibly without even appreciating the history of the game they are working on.

 

Anyway, the balance could be many times better, in every mode.

[Abazigal.3679]

I'm going to say what i said in the other thread : there should be a better progression or learning curve in order to help " noobs " get better, and this goes from tournaments plays where they're going to face teams they do not face normally..

The problem is that most of the time they get facerolled 500-50 and are out of the tournament within a few minutes. How is this supposed to be motivating ?

[Namless.4028]

When were talking about a population issue more gamemodes wont help, because they would split the pvp community.

Also a 5 man only queue wouldnt help since it also would split the community and therefore cause more imbalanced matches.

Id like a small message in chat when a daylie at is about to start.

[Griever.8150]

Honestly, you guys can complain about balance, matchmaking, power creep or whatever else you have absolutely no control over forever and it won't help the game.

 

Even if Anet would miraculously fix all that people would whine about something else. Just look at the Matchmaking conundrum, people say they want longer queues now to improve match quality, but amusingly enough in other games i played people kept asking the devs to take measures to shorten queue times at the higher end just so the top players could actually play the game, so its rather easy to imagine how that would go here when people start getting bored of sitting around in 1hour queues.

 

Bottom line, what makes or break a game is its community, and the higher you go on the ladder the more unbearable this one is. Its just one massive ego-fueled shitshow and one of the biggest problem come from the top.

 

I'm a fairly new player, which makes me to a lot of you guys a "bot", a "monkey" or a "retard". Its that simple. I can't count the time i got harassed or insulted just for playing the game, even in fucking unranked. Don't get me wrong, i have a thick skin, i really couldn't give 2 shits about this but at the same time you have to remember this is a game, most people do this to unwind or pass time. Is it really totally unimaginable that most people don't care about putting up with this? At least within my friends and guildies, that's always what comes first as to why they don't play sPvP anymore.

 

Then i decide to tune in on twitch and watch some of you guys, that's one way to learn right? I'm again greeted with endless rants about how everyone on their team (except that one occasional guy who's part of "the gang") and everyone on the other team is, again, a "bot", a "monkey", a "retard" and so on and so forth. Have you guys ever watched some of your own vods? How aren't you cringing at this? I know i am.

 

Sadly, this is 2017. Twitch is how you promote a game, build a community. I don't like it either, but its how it works now and that puts some responsibility on the people who do it. You become the face of this game's community.

 

How can you grow a game's population when you effectively turn off any potential (non-masochistic) newcomers right off the bat?

 

 

 

 

[rwolf.9571]

2v2s or 3v3s modes

Current state of 5v5 is total rng these days.

[Rezzet.3614]

Low player base is a reaction of the game punishing players for not playing a specific build and specific profession ,not everyone wants to reach high ranking in games some just want to be able to play the profession they love which is impossible with the current lack of balance.

[Synonymity.3680]

WARNING WALL OF TEXT INCOMING

Your care for pvp is very touching, but its all in vain. Trying to reinvigorate this game mode as it stands now won't mean a thing because all the newer players will leave almost immediately because this game mode is damaged beyond repair. For pvp to have a chance as a successful game mode, we'd need to address a few things before we can consider the possibility of trying to appeal this game mode to newer players.

1. Balance needs to happen often. I'll use season 7 (June 13, 2017 - August 8, 2017) and the first half of 8 to explain this one (August 22, 2017 - September 22, 2017, pre PoF). For these two seasons, the two dominant builds were condi s/d thieves and ventari revenants. If you wanted to reach the higher ranks, these two builds basically guaranteed to get you there, even if you were a mediocre player. Keep in mind that each season is about two months and there is a period of two weeks in between each between season. Everyone complained about how ridiculously brain dead and overpowered these two builds were, yet we didn't get a balance patch until PoF dropped, in which these two builds were gutted and replaced with even more op builds. In a more current example, PoF dropped two months ago, yet the same 4-5 classes that were considered unbelievably op then are almost just as strong now. Simply put, the meta becomes stagnant with the same few builds manhandling every other type of build for months at a time.

2. Balance needs to have thought logic behind it. Weapon skills, utilities, and traits need to be split from their wvw and pve counterparts. Also there has to be some reasoning as to how some abilities can be abused. An example of this is ventari revs getting buffed with Hardened Foundation (August 08, 2017 patch notes: "This trait has been reworked and now grants up to 120 Toughness, converting 7% of your Toughness into Healing Power."). I bring this example up because there was no consideration for how a buff like this would affect pvp, ventari revs were already unbelievably hard to kill before, but this kinda tipped them over the line.

3. The reporting system would actually have to mean something. I feel like this is underrated, but its important. Right now, I feel like its just there for decoration, but it really serves no real purpose. Toxic players that constantly insult and bm other people can do so without consequence because they know that if they're reported, they won't get punished. If we want to maintain a strong pvp community that people look forward to playing with, then we have to do away with the toxicity by punishing them appropriately, be it through a temporary mute, dishonor, ban, idc (could you block them? Sure. But while they might not bother you anymore, they're still everyone else's problem).

4. Known match manipulators and boosters should be punished if there is sufficient evidence. If its throwing a ranked match or even some high tiered players competing on some no name's account to win a monthly AT, these people should not be given a free pass to do whatever they want. If anet won't enforce the rules and take their own game seriously, why should the player base take it seriously as well?

5. Anet's consideration for pvp in general. This can range from not dropping an xpac in the middle of a ranked season to hosting a monthly AT two days after its dropped.

6. Communication. The pvp community is kept in the dark, we don't really hear a whole lot of feedback regarding some of our concerns. Rather than addressing some of the major issues that the player base feels, we're avoided altogether.

Anyways, its not like any one of these points are gonna be resolved in the foreseeable future, let alone all of them, so I wouldn't invest too much time and effort in pvp

tl;dr stop playing this bull doo-doo game mode and play something else, anet dismantled pvp beyond repair

[Ragion.2831]

We cannot do anything . Anet already screwed up from day 1 and this is the result. If i was to take a guess these are just a few things that caused this.

**Targeting Casuals**

They started the game targeting casuals which is a huge mistake. Someone please tell me what PC game has lasted long term targeting casual gamers. Buying legendary weapons with gold, No death penalty, being able to practically teleport everywhere with no cost. All this diminished the value of what players were doing and what items they had. There is no single item in this game that you can actually brag about having.

 

Consider Runescape, when i played, it had several items that had a lot of value in the game. Travelling was a chore but there were things you had to do inbetween cities. like improving your skills. Everything took so long that you could not farm 24/7 and stay sane. It literally could turn into a second life because of the length of time it took to do many things. Guild wars 2 went the direct opposite. You get to end game in a few weeks and then there wasnt much left for you to do except WvW and PvP

 

**Story writing**

Some people like the story but in my experience i would often literally begin to dose off on my keyboard trying to complete the story (5 years and I still dont have map completion). The writing was written for 10 year olds. While that in itself is not a bad thing, I'm pretty sure the audience is much much older than that. Most of the people i've met are college students, are married with kids or old enough to be married with kids. Also for a game that hinges on story the Zaitan fight was underwhelming.

 

**Class Balance**

This one has been beaten to death. Ive already said that the stats system has put Anet into more trouble than they realize. Its way too complicated. They could have done away with ferocity, condition damage, boon duration and condition duration. And had those effects in the traits or on the skills. It would have been much easier to balance if there wasnt any dedicated condi or power weapon instead all weapons were direct damage based but could do condi damage (maybe had one special weapon that did only condition damage). Some weapons could bleed on a couple of their skills, some could burn, some could poison etc. Basically everyone becomes hybrid.

 

Also the whole thing with making a class flavour of the month i dont understand. I dont even think they tested half the things they were doing.