Feanor.2358 Posted September 14, 2017 Share Posted September 14, 2017 > @Rennie.6750 said: > > @meeflak.9714 said: > > > @Rennie.6750 said: > > > > @meeflak.9714 said: > > > > Arenanet had stated from the start what they plan to do with raids. They were made to give the community something challenging and engaging to enjoy. It has been said that they don't want to take time to make different tiers because it will take away from thier time they have to design new engaging raid content. Why do you expect them to cater to your requests? Why do they have to take time away from development of new mechanics, for those that want to play it? Your asking them to put a stop on their goals to cater to you > > > > > > > > > > > > Do raider's have to run fractals .. no... Do they if they want to experience the lore ? Or get ad infinitum? Yes > > > > > > > > Do raider's have to play PvP? No . Do they have to if they want Ascension ? Yes > > > > > > > > Do raider's have to play WvW? No. Do they have to if they want the the armor and back piece? Yes > > > > > > > > Does the community have to raid? No . Do they if they want to experience the lore and get legendary armor ? Yes. > > > > > > > > No one Is forced to do anything in this game. If a player wants something from a certain aspect of the game. It's their responsibility to seek it out... I'll never play WvW again I'm sure. Imnot upset I'll never get their specific skins. Those players put the into that game mode to receive it's payouts. That's all raids ask of you . If you want to be included. Then include yourself, but don't expect arenanet to cater to you because you don't want to go through with getting into the content the way it was designed > > > > > > > > > > > > Edit: why do I get so many thumbs down for explaining it the way I see it.. I'm sorry if you don't like my stance, we disagree, sure. But don't you think it's best to just see the magic In raids and give them a shot the way arenanet intended it? > > > > > > Oh yeah why should they cater to people who pay their wages and keep the publisher happy with a steady revenue! How dare they requesting their money's worth! > > > > > > The thing is, raids are expensive content to develop, yet the raiding population in games never exceeds 2-3% for the highest difficulties. It's often in the 1-2% in fact, so everyone is funding this farce and nobody gets to play it except a few chosen ones > > > > *No one gets to play it except the people that want to play it. ... Fixed. > > Then you should read this thread more carefully. There are many people willing to play raids, just not in their current format. Again they're paying for it so why would an arbitrary decisions like "muh vision for raidz" would be anything but an insult or some sort of mockery? No, in fact they aren't willing to play raids. If they were willing, they would. They are willing to get the rewards, but that's not the same thing. Also the payment argument is plain weak. I'm paying for this game as well and I'm not willing to touch PvP with a 10-foot pole. Does it mean ANet should just remove PvP from the game immediately? Or should they introduce "story mode" perhaps? Just because you're paying for the game doesn't mean ALL of its features should be catering to your own personal tastes. It's not possible and it's not necessary. I'm getting plenty of value for my money and so are the people who complain about their own choice not to play raids. As evidenced by the fact they are still around and play the game. And are invested enough in it to come on the forums and complain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lakemine.3014 Posted September 14, 2017 Share Posted September 14, 2017 > @Feanor.2358 said: > > @Rennie.6750 said: > > > @meeflak.9714 said: > > > > @Rennie.6750 said: > > > > > @meeflak.9714 said: > > > > > Arenanet had stated from the start what they plan to do with raids. They were made to give the community something challenging and engaging to enjoy. It has been said that they don't want to take time to make different tiers because it will take away from thier time they have to design new engaging raid content. Why do you expect them to cater to your requests? Why do they have to take time away from development of new mechanics, for those that want to play it? Your asking them to put a stop on their goals to cater to you > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do raider's have to run fractals .. no... Do they if they want to experience the lore ? Or get ad infinitum? Yes > > > > > > > > > > Do raider's have to play PvP? No . Do they have to if they want Ascension ? Yes > > > > > > > > > > Do raider's have to play WvW? No. Do they have to if they want the the armor and back piece? Yes > > > > > > > > > > Does the community have to raid? No . Do they if they want to experience the lore and get legendary armor ? Yes. > > > > > > > > > > No one Is forced to do anything in this game. If a player wants something from a certain aspect of the game. It's their responsibility to seek it out... I'll never play WvW again I'm sure. Imnot upset I'll never get their specific skins. Those players put the into that game mode to receive it's payouts. That's all raids ask of you . If you want to be included. Then include yourself, but don't expect arenanet to cater to you because you don't want to go through with getting into the content the way it was designed > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Edit: why do I get so many thumbs down for explaining it the way I see it.. I'm sorry if you don't like my stance, we disagree, sure. But don't you think it's best to just see the magic In raids and give them a shot the way arenanet intended it? > > > > > > > > Oh yeah why should they cater to people who pay their wages and keep the publisher happy with a steady revenue! How dare they requesting their money's worth! > > > > > > > > The thing is, raids are expensive content to develop, yet the raiding population in games never exceeds 2-3% for the highest difficulties. It's often in the 1-2% in fact, so everyone is funding this farce and nobody gets to play it except a few chosen ones > > > > > > *No one gets to play it except the people that want to play it. ... Fixed. > > > > Then you should read this thread more carefully. There are many people willing to play raids, just not in their current format. Again they're paying for it so why would an arbitrary decisions like "muh vision for raidz" would be anything but an insult or some sort of mockery? > > No, in fact they aren't willing to play raids. If they were willing, they would. They are willing to get the rewards, but that's not the same thing. > > Also the payment argument is plain weak. I'm paying for this game as well and I'm not willing to touch PvP with a 10-foot pole. Does it mean ANet should just remove PvP from the game immediately? Or should they introduce "story mode" perhaps? Just because you're paying for the game doesn't mean ALL of its features should be catering to your own personal tastes. It's not possible and it's not necessary. I'm getting plenty of value for my money and so are the people who complain about their own choice not to play raids. As evidenced by the fact they are still around and play the game. And are invested enough in it to come on the forums and complain. True.....but you can stink BEYOND in pvp and wvw and still get the same reward as elite players (mostly) just takes longer. Also, wvw and pvp don't really have any lore that has a effect on your personal storyline or any of the Living World storylines. (Unless you count the multiple dimensions theory) Also.....im very much glad this is a pay once and play forever game, wish SWTOR went that way...... and other games would as well. Plus just paying a xpac when it comes out over a sub per month? I love that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MandyPlays.9714 Posted September 14, 2017 Share Posted September 14, 2017 My GW2 experience is very character and story driven. I don't have any interest in reading other people's guides to make my character the most powerful, high stats, etc etc. It isn't fun. I just want to experience story and places naturally. I'm not really interested in the raid prizes, so a more accessible version of a raid that just let's you play and maybe tosses some XP my way would have been fine. I miss dungeons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FOX.3582 Posted September 14, 2017 Share Posted September 14, 2017 > @"Zoltar MacRoth.7146" said: > > @Nafets.1238 said: > > I reported this and ask a moderator to close it. It has been specified that no "EZ MODE" raids will come, but they are focusing on problems such as "how can I gather more people to do this content". > > You reported this...on what grounds exactly? Because he is a casual scrub and should not be able to ask such dumb questions of course! /Sarcasm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rennie.6750 Posted September 14, 2017 Share Posted September 14, 2017 > @Feanor.2358 said: > > @Rennie.6750 said: > > > @meeflak.9714 said: > > > > @Rennie.6750 said: > > > > > @meeflak.9714 said: > > > > > Arenanet had stated from the start what they plan to do with raids. They were made to give the community something challenging and engaging to enjoy. It has been said that they don't want to take time to make different tiers because it will take away from thier time they have to design new engaging raid content. Why do you expect them to cater to your requests? Why do they have to take time away from development of new mechanics, for those that want to play it? Your asking them to put a stop on their goals to cater to you > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do raider's have to run fractals .. no... Do they if they want to experience the lore ? Or get ad infinitum? Yes > > > > > > > > > > Do raider's have to play PvP? No . Do they have to if they want Ascension ? Yes > > > > > > > > > > Do raider's have to play WvW? No. Do they have to if they want the the armor and back piece? Yes > > > > > > > > > > Does the community have to raid? No . Do they if they want to experience the lore and get legendary armor ? Yes. > > > > > > > > > > No one Is forced to do anything in this game. If a player wants something from a certain aspect of the game. It's their responsibility to seek it out... I'll never play WvW again I'm sure. Imnot upset I'll never get their specific skins. Those players put the into that game mode to receive it's payouts. That's all raids ask of you . If you want to be included. Then include yourself, but don't expect arenanet to cater to you because you don't want to go through with getting into the content the way it was designed > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Edit: why do I get so many thumbs down for explaining it the way I see it.. I'm sorry if you don't like my stance, we disagree, sure. But don't you think it's best to just see the magic In raids and give them a shot the way arenanet intended it? > > > > > > > > Oh yeah why should they cater to people who pay their wages and keep the publisher happy with a steady revenue! How dare they requesting their money's worth! > > > > > > > > The thing is, raids are expensive content to develop, yet the raiding population in games never exceeds 2-3% for the highest difficulties. It's often in the 1-2% in fact, so everyone is funding this farce and nobody gets to play it except a few chosen ones > > > > > > *No one gets to play it except the people that want to play it. ... Fixed. > > > > Then you should read this thread more carefully. There are many people willing to play raids, just not in their current format. Again they're paying for it so why would an arbitrary decisions like "muh vision for raidz" would be anything but an insult or some sort of mockery? > > No, in fact they aren't willing to play raids. If they were willing, they would. They are willing to get the rewards, but that's not the same thing. > > Also the payment argument is plain weak. I'm paying for this game as well and I'm not willing to touch PvP with a 10-foot pole. Does it mean ANet should just remove PvP from the game immediately? Or should they introduce "story mode" perhaps? Just because you're paying for the game doesn't mean ALL of its features should be catering to your own personal tastes. It's not possible and it's not necessary. I'm getting plenty of value for my money and so are the people who complain about their own choice not to play raids. As evidenced by the fact they are still around and play the game. And are invested enough in it to come on the forums and complain. There is no need for a story mode pvp, you can get all of the pvp rewards without ever killing another player at all and be the worst player in the world. But anyway this is a really moot argument. Not playing raids isn't a choice for many, it's a fact. The requirements are absurdly high; pvp lets you queue with a lvl 3 character and you get the full experience/rewards from it. There's also an automated matchmaking which means that the lfg pvp groups have to deal with the people they get not their ideal party comp, that helps a lot making pvp much more accessible. Yes you will derp and fail initially but with time you'll learn and get better, because no party can say "no, you're not joining". On the other hand, raiding groups are too selective for most players to ever experience raids without begging guild members to teach you the thing. And if you're not in a guild, you're SOL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demeth.5816 Posted September 15, 2017 Share Posted September 15, 2017 > @Blaeys.3102 said: > While I do still love this game (have bought and intend to play PoF a lot), I have been "voting with my wallet" as I've seen others propose doing. I haven't brought it up before now because I don't believe for a second that losing the $50 or so a month I used to spend on gems has had a real financial impact on Anet. > > For me, it's about not wanting to personally support development in a direction I think is bad for the game (reasoning being split between poor raid direction and the utter disregard for large group activities like new guild missions). About a year and a half ago, I decided that if I wanted anything I wanted from the gem story, I would just use in game gold to purchase the gems for the foreseeable future. Again, it is more symbolic than about expecting any kind of reaction, but I think it is a valid response when you believe game direction has shifted into a destructive direction (which I believe it has). The game is finally rising and has no major issue anymore. You are overly dramatic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted September 15, 2017 Share Posted September 15, 2017 > @"Crystal Reid.2481" said: > New forum, so I'll jump in with a new post on this. > > We won't be adding a different difficulty tier at this time. Raids need to continue to remain the most challenging content in the game, and they aren't designed to be accessible by everyone from a skill perspective. Could they be more accessible from a "finding 9 other players to play with" side? Sure. That isn't always an easy problem to solve, and any solution would detract away from the team making more raid content. We'd love to get more content out to you guys faster really. > > I see a lot of comments about W4 difficulty, so I'll add some notes on that as well. Balance came in later than expected since we had far more bosses and content to test than usual. Are we totally happy with how balance turned out? Yes and no. The Mursaat Overseer base difficulty is too easy, but we were very happy with the CM difficulty. For the next release we'd like to get difficulty tuned more back in line with Spirit Vale. However, some of that original difficulty and magic is hard to re-capture. You never forget your first raid boss kill. May this dead horse finally rest. Also it's intersting to hear how the difficulty for wing 4 came to be. The going theory was that raids were to be made easier with challenge modes for more difficulty. Personally I'm fine with either, but have said in the past that I don't think easier raids will automatically solve the grouping problem. We need a LFG tool revamp more for that, but that is getting off topic. Thanks for the respons Crystal Reid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blaeys.3102 Posted September 15, 2017 Author Share Posted September 15, 2017 > @Cyninja.2954 said: > May this dead horse finally rest. Except it is far from a dead horse. No matter what your opinion on this topic, it is still an active discussion. This thread has been viewed more than 16 times more than the next highest in this subforum and more than 100 times more than the vast majority of threads in any part of this forum. If it isn't the most viewed thread in the new forums, it has to be pretty close. So, you can disagree with the idea of a story mode (and express why all you want), but the conversation itself is obviously still of interest to a lot of people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexZero.7910 Posted September 15, 2017 Share Posted September 15, 2017 > @Blaeys.3102 said: > So, you can disagree with the idea of a story mode (and express why all you want), but the conversation itself is obviously still of interest to a lot of people. Sorry forgot to turn off reload every. It's a good add-on normally but apparently just like dps meters people can use information the wrong way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted September 15, 2017 Share Posted September 15, 2017 > @setdog.1592 said: > > @"Crystal Reid.2481" said: > > New forum, so I'll jump in with a new post on this. > > > > We won't be adding a different difficulty tier at this time. Raids need to continue to remain the most challenging content in the game, and they aren't designed to be accessible by everyone from a skill perspective. Could they be more accessible from a "finding 9 other players to play with" side? Sure. That isn't always an easy problem to solve, and any solution would detract away from the team making more raid content. We'd love to get more content out to you guys faster really. > > > > I see a lot of comments about W4 difficulty, so I'll add some notes on that as well. Balance came in later than expected since we had far more bosses and content to test than usual. Are we totally happy with how balance turned out? Yes and no. The Mursaat Overseer base difficulty is too easy, but we were very happy with the CM difficulty. For the next release we'd like to get difficulty tuned more back in line with Spirit Vale. However, some of that original difficulty and magic is hard to re-capture. You never forget your first raid boss kill. > > i enjoy this game alot and lately ive been getting more and more interesting in doing fractals, then i learned about Challenge Mote fractals I was thinking, "gee i really need to finish my ascended gear so I can do these "Challenge Mode" level 100 Fractals > > I went online to check out a guide and found a video of a Guardian soloing a F100 challenge mote > > Cant tell you how much i feel that just screams "Broken Game", > > whats the challenge if "group content" can be soloed? Link the vid pls id like to see it. Also u can solo raids it means that one either the bosses are broken in a way or 2 rhat the player is just really good. In 100cm's case id say its the second. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted September 15, 2017 Share Posted September 15, 2017 > @TexZero.7910 said: > > @Blaeys.3102 said: > > So, you can disagree with the idea of a story mode (and express why all you want), but the conversation itself is obviously still of interest to a lot of people. > > Sorry forgot to turn off reload every. It's a good add-on normally but apparently just like dps meters people can use information the wrong way. > Btw neither does wow nor ff14 have a story mode and neither does Wildstar. I dont see why gw2 should have 1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted September 15, 2017 Share Posted September 15, 2017 > @Blaeys.3102 said: > > @Cyninja.2954 said: > > May this dead horse finally rest. > > > Except it is far from a dead horse. No matter what your opinion on this topic, it is still an active discussion. This thread has been viewed more than 16 times more than the next highest in this subforum and more than 100 times more than the vast majority of threads in any part of this forum. If it isn't the most viewed thread in the new forums, it has to be pretty close. > > So, you can disagree with the idea of a story mode (and express why all you want), but the conversation itself is obviously still of interest to a lot of people. It is a dead horse by the mere fact that you have an official arenanet response that they are not intending to offer easy mode raids in this very thread (first page even), which is in line with what they have said in the past. Period. Now don't get me wrong, I honestly don't care how you waste your time and how often you bring this topic up trying to push your agenda (worst case for you, you might eventually get infracted for bringing up the same topic over and over). This doesn't change the fact that this ship has sailed or more exact, it was never docked to begin with since arenanet never intended to offer easy mode raids. The fact that they even intend to increase raid difficulty back to wing 1 levels shows exactly where they are on raid difficulty and what they are aiming for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Illconceived Was Na.9781 Posted September 15, 2017 Share Posted September 15, 2017 > @cubed.2853 said: > > @"Crystal Reid.2481" said: > > Raids need to continue to remain the most challenging content in the game, and they aren't designed to be accessible by everyone from a skill perspective. > > it's really sad that you think so... Why is it "sad"? Raids were specifically introduced in the game for this very reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted September 15, 2017 Share Posted September 15, 2017 > @Rennie.6750 said: > > @Feanor.2358 said: > > > @Rennie.6750 said: > > > > @meeflak.9714 said: > > > > > @Rennie.6750 said: > > > > > > @meeflak.9714 said: > > > > > > Arenanet had stated from the start what they plan to do with raids. They were made to give the community something challenging and engaging to enjoy. It has been said that they don't want to take time to make different tiers because it will take away from thier time they have to design new engaging raid content. Why do you expect them to cater to your requests? Why do they have to take time away from development of new mechanics, for those that want to play it? Your asking them to put a stop on their goals to cater to you > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do raider's have to run fractals .. no... Do they if they want to experience the lore ? Or get ad infinitum? Yes > > > > > > > > > > > > Do raider's have to play PvP? No . Do they have to if they want Ascension ? Yes > > > > > > > > > > > > Do raider's have to play WvW? No. Do they have to if they want the the armor and back piece? Yes > > > > > > > > > > > > Does the community have to raid? No . Do they if they want to experience the lore and get legendary armor ? Yes. > > > > > > > > > > > > No one Is forced to do anything in this game. If a player wants something from a certain aspect of the game. It's their responsibility to seek it out... I'll never play WvW again I'm sure. Imnot upset I'll never get their specific skins. Those players put the into that game mode to receive it's payouts. That's all raids ask of you . If you want to be included. Then include yourself, but don't expect arenanet to cater to you because you don't want to go through with getting into the content the way it was designed > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Edit: why do I get so many thumbs down for explaining it the way I see it.. I'm sorry if you don't like my stance, we disagree, sure. But don't you think it's best to just see the magic In raids and give them a shot the way arenanet intended it? > > > > > > > > > > Oh yeah why should they cater to people who pay their wages and keep the publisher happy with a steady revenue! How dare they requesting their money's worth! > > > > > > > > > > The thing is, raids are expensive content to develop, yet the raiding population in games never exceeds 2-3% for the highest difficulties. It's often in the 1-2% in fact, so everyone is funding this farce and nobody gets to play it except a few chosen ones > > > > > > > > *No one gets to play it except the people that want to play it. ... Fixed. > > > > > > Then you should read this thread more carefully. There are many people willing to play raids, just not in their current format. Again they're paying for it so why would an arbitrary decisions like "muh vision for raidz" would be anything but an insult or some sort of mockery? > > > > No, in fact they aren't willing to play raids. If they were willing, they would. They are willing to get the rewards, but that's not the same thing. > > > > Also the payment argument is plain weak. I'm paying for this game as well and I'm not willing to touch PvP with a 10-foot pole. Does it mean ANet should just remove PvP from the game immediately? Or should they introduce "story mode" perhaps? Just because you're paying for the game doesn't mean ALL of its features should be catering to your own personal tastes. It's not possible and it's not necessary. I'm getting plenty of value for my money and so are the people who complain about their own choice not to play raids. As evidenced by the fact they are still around and play the game. And are invested enough in it to come on the forums and complain. > > There is no need for a story mode pvp, you can get all of the pvp rewards without ever killing another player at all and be the worst player in the world. But anyway this is a really moot argument. Not playing raids isn't a choice for many, it's a fact. The requirements are absurdly high; pvp lets you queue with a lvl 3 character and you get the full experience/rewards from it. There's also an automated matchmaking which means that the lfg pvp groups have to deal with the people they get not their ideal party comp, that helps a lot making pvp much more accessible. Yes you will kitten and fail initially but with time you'll learn and get better, because no party can say "no, you're not joining". On the other hand, raiding groups are too selective for most players to ever experience raids without begging guild members to teach you the thing. And if you're not in a guild, you're SOL. You're even *starting* your reply with talk about rewards. Like I said, it's not the same thing. The complaining people aren't concerned about playing the content, they're concerned about getting the rewards. And they're using the payment as an argument? Appalling. And no, it *is* a choice. Each and every one of us has the very same option to click on the party interface, create a raid squad and enter the instance. What you can't do as easily is get the rewards. But let me tell you a secret - it wasn't easy for us active raiders either. I was in the same situation, however I *was* willing to raid. So I did. I sought guilds, I trained and I sucked. Then I kept training and I sucked less. Then I began pugging and eventually I found my place in a guild static. Everyone can do it. It doesn't take any special skill. It only takes time and effort. And whether or not you want to invest them in raiding is a choice which is entirely up to you. Both answers are equally valid. Complaining about the answer you gave isn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel.4581 Posted September 15, 2017 Share Posted September 15, 2017 Dont know if it's been suggested before, but what about a Easy Mode Mote? Taking it WILL stop all Asc drops, all Li drops and Shards from raids until next reset - account wide. What you get for that is: no Enrage timer, 10%dmg increase and 10% dmg reduction on the entire team. To me it sounds like a fair tradeoff, if ppl want to do raid instance for the story :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fatalyz.7168 Posted September 15, 2017 Share Posted September 15, 2017 > @Angel.4581 said: > Dont know if it's been suggested before, but what about a Easy Mode Mote? Taking it WILL stop all Asc drops, all Li drops and Shards from raids until next reset - account wide. What you get for that is: no Enrage timer, 10%dmg increase and 10% dmg reduction on the entire team. To me it sounds like a fair tradeoff, if ppl want to do raid instance for the story :) Pretty sure that has been suggested multiple times. However, from Crystal (one of the Raid devs): "We won't be adding a different difficulty tier at this time. Raids need to continue to remain the most challenging content in the game, and they aren't designed to be accessible by everyone from a skill perspective." They won't be adding a different difficulty tier at this time, and by not being designed to be accessible by everyone, from a skill perspective. That pretty much means no easy mote, because that would make it more accessible from a skill perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joji.7934 Posted September 15, 2017 Share Posted September 15, 2017 > @zoomborg.9462 said: > > @Feanor.2358 said: > > > @Zefiris.8297 said: > > > > @Feanor.2358 said: > > > > The simple answer is: it's not cost-effective. An "easy/story mode" raid would have no replayability whatsoever. Let alone multiple difficulty tiers. They will serve to only be "accessed" once by some curious players who will never go back to them. It is simply not worth the effort. > > > > > > Actually, other MMOs have proven this to be wrong: This approach is most cost effective, because it achieves multiple things at once. > > > 1. It gets people into raiding, letting them actually try the content and see if they like it (which many do) > > > 2. It gets people to practice the mechanics, leading to the average person trying a raid to be better at it > > > 3. It keeps people engaged, because there is more content to do with friends, which is *the* reason for a MMO to have retention > > > > > > This is why the most successful MMOs do use such easier modes. It's not because these games have nicer designers, it's just because it's a more effective use of development time. > > > > 1. No it doesn't. I've seen many people show interest in raiding and lose it quickly. It was never a difficulty problem, it was commitment. Having to make arrangements ahead of time and having to stick with them for the sake of a game - that's what makes people not become raiders, most of everything. You might argue PUGs exist, but pugging wastes a lot more time in setting up a group, both at the start and when somebody leaves. It's your free time and you're trying to have some fun. Waiting is nobody's idea of fun, so people give up on that, too. > > > > 2. No it doesn't. Tuned-down mechanics can only teach you bad habits. > > > > 3. No it doesn't, see (1). > > > > > > Easier modes on other MMOS never really trained players.Instead the players just stayed at a low difficulty level and literally "farmed" raids as there is nothing else to do in most MMO's apart from raiding. If VG was nerfed so that green circles dont down players when exploding then u would have the bad habit of completely ignoring them. Same with Sabetha flamewall or Matthias Sacrifice or Deimos mind crush etc etc. The only way people get better either in a game or in RL is try to do something much more difficult than your current skillset and improve with commitment. This is the only way to train. > Most players in GW2 do T4 daylies every single day. Yet as soon as they hop into 99cm,100cm they die all over the place. Why is that? Because only by playing the cms do u actually train for cms. T4 fractals dont prepare u for that. Same with raids, if u wanna train u need to find/create a training group instead of hoping Anet will give a cookie. > > I completely agree with feanor. There is some truth to this, but not entirely correct. T4's is a great place to hone your player skills: Dodging, How to DPS (you will care about this if you raid), break bars, stacking for heals/boons, learning your class and class synergies, etc.. For example, I've ran Arah hundreds of times before HoT, transitioning to raids was EZPZ; and fractals were a joke. And before I could do Arah efficiently, I had to run the other dungeons to get to that skill level to do Arah. But the other aspect is correct, doing T4 dailies doesn't qualify for killing raid bosses. Progressing on raid bosses and putting in 50+ will though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted September 15, 2017 Share Posted September 15, 2017 > @Joji.7934 said: > > @zoomborg.9462 said: > > > @Feanor.2358 said: > > > > @Zefiris.8297 said: > > > > > @Feanor.2358 said: > > > > > The simple answer is: it's not cost-effective. An "easy/story mode" raid would have no replayability whatsoever. Let alone multiple difficulty tiers. They will serve to only be "accessed" once by some curious players who will never go back to them. It is simply not worth the effort. > > > > > > > > Actually, other MMOs have proven this to be wrong: This approach is most cost effective, because it achieves multiple things at once. > > > > 1. It gets people into raiding, letting them actually try the content and see if they like it (which many do) > > > > 2. It gets people to practice the mechanics, leading to the average person trying a raid to be better at it > > > > 3. It keeps people engaged, because there is more content to do with friends, which is *the* reason for a MMO to have retention > > > > > > > > This is why the most successful MMOs do use such easier modes. It's not because these games have nicer designers, it's just because it's a more effective use of development time. > > > > > > 1. No it doesn't. I've seen many people show interest in raiding and lose it quickly. It was never a difficulty problem, it was commitment. Having to make arrangements ahead of time and having to stick with them for the sake of a game - that's what makes people not become raiders, most of everything. You might argue PUGs exist, but pugging wastes a lot more time in setting up a group, both at the start and when somebody leaves. It's your free time and you're trying to have some fun. Waiting is nobody's idea of fun, so people give up on that, too. > > > > > > 2. No it doesn't. Tuned-down mechanics can only teach you bad habits. > > > > > > 3. No it doesn't, see (1). > > > > > > > > > > Easier modes on other MMOS never really trained players.Instead the players just stayed at a low difficulty level and literally "farmed" raids as there is nothing else to do in most MMO's apart from raiding. If VG was nerfed so that green circles dont down players when exploding then u would have the bad habit of completely ignoring them. Same with Sabetha flamewall or Matthias Sacrifice or Deimos mind crush etc etc. The only way people get better either in a game or in RL is try to do something much more difficult than your current skillset and improve with commitment. This is the only way to train. > > Most players in GW2 do T4 daylies every single day. Yet as soon as they hop into 99cm,100cm they die all over the place. Why is that? Because only by playing the cms do u actually train for cms. T4 fractals dont prepare u for that. Same with raids, if u wanna train u need to find/create a training group instead of hoping Anet will give a cookie. > > > > I completely agree with feanor. > > There is some truth to this, but not entirely correct. > T4's is a great place to hone your player skills: Dodging, How to DPS (you will care about this if you raid), break bars, stacking for heals/boons, learning your class and class synergies, etc.. T4s can only teach you basics. In general, every content only pushes your skill as far as it's own difficulty. Then you stop having an incentive to improve and you don't improve any more. But you can pick bad habits, no problem. For instance you can become too happy on the dodge button (I've been that). Similarly, T4s won't really teach you how to dps. You don't need to pull off high numbers. Sure, it makes things smoother and easier, but you can manage just fine without practising rotations. I've been that, too. The thing is, these bad habits are not a problem in the easy content because you pull it off anyway. They only become a problem once move to more challenging one. Raiding pushed my skills so much further. It's not boasting, I don't think of myself as a very good player. I'm decent, but I'm nowhere near the standards of qT or SC. It's just facts. Fractals didn't prepare me for raiding. Only actual raiding did. Maybe fractal CMs could work as a stepping stone. But the average t4 daily pug player will have just the same struggles on CMs as on actual raids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rennie.6750 Posted September 15, 2017 Share Posted September 15, 2017 > @Feanor.2358 said: > > @Rennie.6750 said: > > > @Feanor.2358 said: > > > > @Rennie.6750 said: > > > > > @meeflak.9714 said: > > > > > > @Rennie.6750 said: > > > > > > > @meeflak.9714 said: > > > > > > > Arenanet had stated from the start what they plan to do with raids. They were made to give the community something challenging and engaging to enjoy. It has been said that they don't want to take time to make different tiers because it will take away from thier time they have to design new engaging raid content. Why do you expect them to cater to your requests? Why do they have to take time away from development of new mechanics, for those that want to play it? Your asking them to put a stop on their goals to cater to you > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do raider's have to run fractals .. no... Do they if they want to experience the lore ? Or get ad infinitum? Yes > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do raider's have to play PvP? No . Do they have to if they want Ascension ? Yes > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do raider's have to play WvW? No. Do they have to if they want the the armor and back piece? Yes > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Does the community have to raid? No . Do they if they want to experience the lore and get legendary armor ? Yes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No one Is forced to do anything in this game. If a player wants something from a certain aspect of the game. It's their responsibility to seek it out... I'll never play WvW again I'm sure. Imnot upset I'll never get their specific skins. Those players put the into that game mode to receive it's payouts. That's all raids ask of you . If you want to be included. Then include yourself, but don't expect arenanet to cater to you because you don't want to go through with getting into the content the way it was designed > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Edit: why do I get so many thumbs down for explaining it the way I see it.. I'm sorry if you don't like my stance, we disagree, sure. But don't you think it's best to just see the magic In raids and give them a shot the way arenanet intended it? > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh yeah why should they cater to people who pay their wages and keep the publisher happy with a steady revenue! How dare they requesting their money's worth! > > > > > > > > > > > > The thing is, raids are expensive content to develop, yet the raiding population in games never exceeds 2-3% for the highest difficulties. It's often in the 1-2% in fact, so everyone is funding this farce and nobody gets to play it except a few chosen ones > > > > > > > > > > *No one gets to play it except the people that want to play it. ... Fixed. > > > > > > > > Then you should read this thread more carefully. There are many people willing to play raids, just not in their current format. Again they're paying for it so why would an arbitrary decisions like "muh vision for raidz" would be anything but an insult or some sort of mockery? > > > > > > No, in fact they aren't willing to play raids. If they were willing, they would. They are willing to get the rewards, but that's not the same thing. > > > > > > Also the payment argument is plain weak. I'm paying for this game as well and I'm not willing to touch PvP with a 10-foot pole. Does it mean ANet should just remove PvP from the game immediately? Or should they introduce "story mode" perhaps? Just because you're paying for the game doesn't mean ALL of its features should be catering to your own personal tastes. It's not possible and it's not necessary. I'm getting plenty of value for my money and so are the people who complain about their own choice not to play raids. As evidenced by the fact they are still around and play the game. And are invested enough in it to come on the forums and complain. > > > > There is no need for a story mode pvp, you can get all of the pvp rewards without ever killing another player at all and be the worst player in the world. But anyway this is a really moot argument. Not playing raids isn't a choice for many, it's a fact. The requirements are absurdly high; pvp lets you queue with a lvl 3 character and you get the full experience/rewards from it. There's also an automated matchmaking which means that the lfg pvp groups have to deal with the people they get not their ideal party comp, that helps a lot making pvp much more accessible. Yes you will kitten and fail initially but with time you'll learn and get better, because no party can say "no, you're not joining". On the other hand, raiding groups are too selective for most players to ever experience raids without begging guild members to teach you the thing. And if you're not in a guild, you're SOL. > > You're even *starting* your reply with talk about rewards. Like I said, it's not the same thing. The complaining people aren't concerned about playing the content, they're concerned about getting the rewards. And they're using the payment as an argument? Appalling. > > And no, it *is* a choice. Each and every one of us has the very same option to click on the party interface, create a raid squad and enter the instance. What you can't do as easily is get the rewards. But let me tell you a secret - it wasn't easy for us active raiders either. I was in the same situation, however I *was* willing to raid. So I did. I sought guilds, I trained and I sucked. Then I kept training and I sucked less. Then I began pugging and eventually I found my place in a guild static. Everyone can do it. It doesn't take any special skill. It only takes time and effort. And whether or not you want to invest them in raiding is a choice which is entirely up to you. Both answers are equally valid. Complaining about the answer you gave isn't. Well it's simple, any content without meaningful rewards will not be played. Look, if it's easier to get stuff in open world content than in possible easy raids then adding easier raids won't solve any of the current issues and nobody will play them more than once for the scenery/experience. There needs to be some progression system, but the early steps HAVE to be rewarding, something that Anet's current team doesn't understand at all. Look at early fractals, rewards feel like an insult, when the original team got it perfectly, with dungeon tokens in abundance and easily obtained decent but not BiS gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted September 16, 2017 Share Posted September 16, 2017 > @Rennie.6750 said: > > @Feanor.2358 said: > > > @Rennie.6750 said: > > > > @Feanor.2358 said: > > > > > @Rennie.6750 said: > > > > > > @meeflak.9714 said: > > > > > > > @Rennie.6750 said: > > > > > > > > @meeflak.9714 said: > > > > > > > > Arenanet had stated from the start what they plan to do with raids. They were made to give the community something challenging and engaging to enjoy. It has been said that they don't want to take time to make different tiers because it will take away from thier time they have to design new engaging raid content. Why do you expect them to cater to your requests? Why do they have to take time away from development of new mechanics, for those that want to play it? Your asking them to put a stop on their goals to cater to you > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do raider's have to run fractals .. no... Do they if they want to experience the lore ? Or get ad infinitum? Yes > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do raider's have to play PvP? No . Do they have to if they want Ascension ? Yes > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do raider's have to play WvW? No. Do they have to if they want the the armor and back piece? Yes > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Does the community have to raid? No . Do they if they want to experience the lore and get legendary armor ? Yes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No one Is forced to do anything in this game. If a player wants something from a certain aspect of the game. It's their responsibility to seek it out... I'll never play WvW again I'm sure. Imnot upset I'll never get their specific skins. Those players put the into that game mode to receive it's payouts. That's all raids ask of you . If you want to be included. Then include yourself, but don't expect arenanet to cater to you because you don't want to go through with getting into the content the way it was designed > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Edit: why do I get so many thumbs down for explaining it the way I see it.. I'm sorry if you don't like my stance, we disagree, sure. But don't you think it's best to just see the magic In raids and give them a shot the way arenanet intended it? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh yeah why should they cater to people who pay their wages and keep the publisher happy with a steady revenue! How dare they requesting their money's worth! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The thing is, raids are expensive content to develop, yet the raiding population in games never exceeds 2-3% for the highest difficulties. It's often in the 1-2% in fact, so everyone is funding this farce and nobody gets to play it except a few chosen ones > > > > > > > > > > > > *No one gets to play it except the people that want to play it. ... Fixed. > > > > > > > > > > Then you should read this thread more carefully. There are many people willing to play raids, just not in their current format. Again they're paying for it so why would an arbitrary decisions like "muh vision for raidz" would be anything but an insult or some sort of mockery? > > > > > > > > No, in fact they aren't willing to play raids. If they were willing, they would. They are willing to get the rewards, but that's not the same thing. > > > > > > > > Also the payment argument is plain weak. I'm paying for this game as well and I'm not willing to touch PvP with a 10-foot pole. Does it mean ANet should just remove PvP from the game immediately? Or should they introduce "story mode" perhaps? Just because you're paying for the game doesn't mean ALL of its features should be catering to your own personal tastes. It's not possible and it's not necessary. I'm getting plenty of value for my money and so are the people who complain about their own choice not to play raids. As evidenced by the fact they are still around and play the game. And are invested enough in it to come on the forums and complain. > > > > > > There is no need for a story mode pvp, you can get all of the pvp rewards without ever killing another player at all and be the worst player in the world. But anyway this is a really moot argument. Not playing raids isn't a choice for many, it's a fact. The requirements are absurdly high; pvp lets you queue with a lvl 3 character and you get the full experience/rewards from it. There's also an automated matchmaking which means that the lfg pvp groups have to deal with the people they get not their ideal party comp, that helps a lot making pvp much more accessible. Yes you will kitten and fail initially but with time you'll learn and get better, because no party can say "no, you're not joining". On the other hand, raiding groups are too selective for most players to ever experience raids without begging guild members to teach you the thing. And if you're not in a guild, you're SOL. > > > > You're even *starting* your reply with talk about rewards. Like I said, it's not the same thing. The complaining people aren't concerned about playing the content, they're concerned about getting the rewards. And they're using the payment as an argument? Appalling. > > > > And no, it *is* a choice. Each and every one of us has the very same option to click on the party interface, create a raid squad and enter the instance. What you can't do as easily is get the rewards. But let me tell you a secret - it wasn't easy for us active raiders either. I was in the same situation, however I *was* willing to raid. So I did. I sought guilds, I trained and I sucked. Then I kept training and I sucked less. Then I began pugging and eventually I found my place in a guild static. Everyone can do it. It doesn't take any special skill. It only takes time and effort. And whether or not you want to invest them in raiding is a choice which is entirely up to you. Both answers are equally valid. Complaining about the answer you gave isn't. > > Well it's simple, any content without meaningful rewards will not be played. Look, if it's easier to get stuff in open world content than in possible easy raids then adding easier raids won't solve any of the current issues and nobody will play them more than once for the scenery/experience. There needs to be some progression system, but the early steps HAVE to be rewarding, something that Anet's current team doesn't understand at all. Look at early fractals, rewards feel like an insult, when the original team got it perfectly, with dungeon tokens in abundance and easily obtained decent but not BiS gear. Adding easier raids won't solve any "issues" in any case. If anything, what you have in mind will only create actual issues, like making their original, intended difficulty meaningless. Why would you risk failing if you could slack and get the rewards anyway in less time? Mind you, you're not asking for some symbolic rewards here, you feel insulted by the fact you don't get in the faceroll low-tier fractals rewards comparable to the higher tiers. You don't want to enjoy content, you want to get every reward the game has to offer with as little effort as possible. You shouldn't. It would make the game boring very, very fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solstace.2514 Posted September 16, 2017 Share Posted September 16, 2017 I disagree with a lot of what you post. Raids are such a small portion of the game and are not required or needed to play or enjoy any aspect of gw2. They were designed as a way of delivering much needed challenging content to the end game. Like anything in this world, it will not please everybody. As for builds, you can play whatever build you want. People like meta builds because they are efficient and designed to beat boss encounters. But if you don't like them, find a group of like minded individuals and plug away. It's not anets job to force people to play in groups. Raids really aren't that hard. They just don't deliver the instant gratification some players are accustomed to. They require effort, dedication and skill. But that's what makes them so fun because they are a challenge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted September 17, 2017 Share Posted September 17, 2017 > @Feanor.2358 said: > > @Joji.7934 said: > > > @zoomborg.9462 said: > > > > @Feanor.2358 said: > > > > > @Zefiris.8297 said: > > > > > > @Feanor.2358 said: > > > > > > The simple answer is: it's not cost-effective. An "easy/story mode" raid would have no replayability whatsoever. Let alone multiple difficulty tiers. They will serve to only be "accessed" once by some curious players who will never go back to them. It is simply not worth the effort. > > > > > > > > > > Actually, other MMOs have proven this to be wrong: This approach is most cost effective, because it achieves multiple things at once. > > > > > 1. It gets people into raiding, letting them actually try the content and see if they like it (which many do) > > > > > 2. It gets people to practice the mechanics, leading to the average person trying a raid to be better at it > > > > > 3. It keeps people engaged, because there is more content to do with friends, which is *the* reason for a MMO to have retention > > > > > > > > > > This is why the most successful MMOs do use such easier modes. It's not because these games have nicer designers, it's just because it's a more effective use of development time. > > > > > > > > 1. No it doesn't. I've seen many people show interest in raiding and lose it quickly. It was never a difficulty problem, it was commitment. Having to make arrangements ahead of time and having to stick with them for the sake of a game - that's what makes people not become raiders, most of everything. You might argue PUGs exist, but pugging wastes a lot more time in setting up a group, both at the start and when somebody leaves. It's your free time and you're trying to have some fun. Waiting is nobody's idea of fun, so people give up on that, too. > > > > > > > > 2. No it doesn't. Tuned-down mechanics can only teach you bad habits. > > > > > > > > 3. No it doesn't, see (1). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Easier modes on other MMOS never really trained players.Instead the players just stayed at a low difficulty level and literally "farmed" raids as there is nothing else to do in most MMO's apart from raiding. If VG was nerfed so that green circles dont down players when exploding then u would have the bad habit of completely ignoring them. Same with Sabetha flamewall or Matthias Sacrifice or Deimos mind crush etc etc. The only way people get better either in a game or in RL is try to do something much more difficult than your current skillset and improve with commitment. This is the only way to train. > > > Most players in GW2 do T4 daylies every single day. Yet as soon as they hop into 99cm,100cm they die all over the place. Why is that? Because only by playing the cms do u actually train for cms. T4 fractals dont prepare u for that. Same with raids, if u wanna train u need to find/create a training group instead of hoping Anet will give a cookie. > > > > > > I completely agree with feanor. > > > > There is some truth to this, but not entirely correct. > > T4's is a great place to hone your player skills: Dodging, How to DPS (you will care about this if you raid), break bars, stacking for heals/boons, learning your class and class synergies, etc.. > > T4s can only teach you basics. In general, every content only pushes your skill as far as it's own difficulty. Then you stop having an incentive to improve and you don't improve any more. But you can pick bad habits, no problem. For instance you can become too happy on the dodge button (I've been that). Similarly, T4s won't really teach you how to dps. You don't need to pull off high numbers. Sure, it makes things smoother and easier, but you can manage just fine without practising rotations. I've been that, too. The thing is, these bad habits are not a problem in the easy content because you pull it off anyway. They only become a problem once move to more challenging one. Raiding pushed my skills so much further. It's not boasting, I don't think of myself as a very good player. I'm decent, but I'm nowhere near the standards of qT or SC. It's just facts. Fractals didn't prepare me for raiding. Only actual raiding did. Maybe fractal CMs could work as a stepping stone. But the average t4 daily pug player will have just the same struggles on CMs as on actual raids. Tl;dr t4s should really just be t3s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaraGreen.2345 Posted September 17, 2017 Share Posted September 17, 2017 I would have have liked to see slightly easier raid difficulty so players can get the story and lore and enjoy encounters in random lfg setting. I do not think any main story should be gated so over 70 percent or more of the player base will never view it really a design flaw on a nets part. If you wanna keep a hard raid difficulty that's fine. I would rather elitist stay in it and avoid normal players. Better yet give the elitist their own server most of the population wants nothing to do with them. As we have seen in wow and other mmos elitism bring toxicity and destroys a games community by spreading its plague upon other game modes that same elitism is why most of us play gw2 instead of other toxic mmos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoomborg.9462 Posted September 17, 2017 Share Posted September 17, 2017 > @SaraGreen.2345 said: > I would have have liked to see slightly easier raid difficulty so players can get the story and lore and enjoy encounters in random lfg setting. > I do not think any main story should be gated so over 70 percent or more of the player base will never view it really a design flaw on a nets part. > > If you wanna keep a hard raid difficulty that's fine. I would rather elitist stay in it and avoid normal players. > Better yet give the elitist their own server most of the population wants nothing to do with them. > > As we have seen in wow and other mmos elitism bring toxicity and destroys a games community by spreading its plague upon other game modes that same elitism is why most of us play gw2 instead of other toxic mmos. > So...anyone who can clear a raid is an elitist? I mean pretty much anyone who tries, casual or not can clear raids at this point, they just don't wanna try. Raids arent that hard, just people blowing it out of proportion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fatalyz.7168 Posted September 17, 2017 Share Posted September 17, 2017 > @SaraGreen.2345 said: > I would have have liked to see slightly easier raid difficulty so players can get the story and lore and enjoy encounters in random lfg setting. > I do not think any main story should be gated so over 70 percent or more of the player base will never view it really a design flaw on a nets part. I agree with you, main story should not be gated. However, raids in this game are side story's (meaning that they are not telling the story of the PC). There are some places where NPC's will reference that you were in the Raid, if you completed the content, but if you haven't, it won't reference you, the PC, being there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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