Here's how I would nerf scourge:

[Avigrus.2871]

My concern is once Scourge is nerfed, we'll have no meta specs left....

 

They really overdid it on Reaper when they nerfed shroud up-time, whirls and bleeds.

[Vulf.3098]

I would rather them just remove sand savant from the game.

 

 

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

> @"Vulf.3098" said:

> I would rather them just remove sand savant from the game.

>

>

 

And replace with a Barrier-enhancing trait, I think. That gives us a real support Grandmaster trait and better fits the theme of the top line.

[dceptaconroy.7928]

Righto hows this. Nerf scourge Buff Power Reaper and Necro. Bring them all mid tier where everyone wants us and are easily managed. Allow people to enjoy their fave builds and reduce stress caused by adaptation. Cheers.

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"dceptaconroy.7928" said:

> Righto hows this. Nerf scourge Buff Power Reaper and Necro. Bring them all mid tier where everyone wants us and are easily managed. Allow people to enjoy their fave builds and reduce stress caused by adaptation. Cheers.

 

I'd refrain from saying "power" reaper if I were you. History prove that the more they buff "power" reaper, the more it feel like a nerf.

 

Let's just say: Nerf scourge, buff reaper survivability a bit and please bring the core necromancer death shroud up to date. Not that I would mind if they suddenly taught the golem how to swim or siple things like that...

 

There are so much things that feel wrong with the necromancer that I'd almost think that they designed the profession to feel wrong.

[Nimon.7840]

Thats how you would completly delete scourges from any pvp game mode. And since necro isnt very good in pve either you could also delete the class from the game.

 

Sorry. But the necro has two big weaknesses. Hes immobile as fu... and he doesnt have any real good defense.

 

And then you even want to nerv his offens capability? Wtf?!> @"reikken.4961" said:

> Instead of making shade skills explode the entire area with instant unreactable damage, the shade skills do a wave of damage that starts in the center and expands outward. And the speed the wave moves is the same regardless of shade size, so it takes a lot longer for it to reach the edge of a big Sand Savant shade. How fast it is is up for debate, but slow enough to be reactable on the outer area of Sand Savant. Delayed AoEs in MOBAs tend to be about 0.6-0.7s, so I was thinking 0.7-1.0 sec to reach the edge of the big shade.

>

> I like this because the main issue with scourge isn't the amount of damage (see: PvE) so much as how easy it is for the damage to land. This way is a nerf in a way that makes the class less faceroll. Comboing damage with disables or saving bursts for when your opponent is out of dodges or out of position is now more important, just like it is for every other class. And this way it's also a lot less dangerous to stand at the edge of the massive point-covering shade than it is to stand in the middle of it.

>

> As an added bonus, it's _much_ less of a nerf for the smaller shades, bringing some balance there, and it's not really a nerf at all for PvE (where scourge needs _buffs_ if anything)

>

> Oh also, I'd make the subsequent pulses of Desert Shroud beyond the first, visually _much_ smaller. because they are a lot less dangerous than anything else coming from the shades, and you don't want important stuff hidden by constant desert shroud pulses. And the AoE barrier and condi clear on skills 2 and 3 should probably still be instant.

 

Thats how you would completly delete scourges from any pvp game mode. And since necro isnt very good in pve either you could also delete the class from the game.

 

Sorry. But the necro has two big weaknesses. Hes immobile as fu... and he doesnt have any real good defense.

 

And then you even want to nerv his offens capability? Wtf?!

[Nimon.7840]

> @"ToPNoP.2493" said:

> I know this is a pvp post, but scourge is too strong in wvw also. really, nothing pre pof can beat it at the same skill level. and a scourge can walk past a firebrand and anhilate it with one ring attached to its body. Scourge is too easy to play and should be nerfed to support.

 

If a scourge can do that. The firebrand has to be afk

[Nimon.7840]

> @"Aeolus.3615" said:

> > @"ToPNoP.2493" said:

> > I know this is a pvp post, but scourge is too strong in wvw also. really, nothing pre pof can beat it at the same skill level. and a scourge can walk past a firebrand and anhilate it with one ring attached to its body. Scourge is too easy to play and should be nerfed to support.

>

> but game is all about dps, they will never nerf the scourge damage output capability, classes and elite traits are designed based on how a pve player should feel the class workign for him.

>

> I took this line from some Anet video where some dev's was telling how a class should behave and a player should feel it, i think was from pre HoT, so basicly during HoT presentation.

 

You want to tell me scourge is in a great spot from pve perspective?

 

Hes definetly not in the upper half of the dmg potential of all classes

[dceptaconroy.7928]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"dceptaconroy.7928" said:

> > Righto hows this. Nerf scourge Buff Power Reaper and Necro. Bring them all mid tier where everyone wants us and are easily managed. Allow people to enjoy their fave builds and reduce stress caused by adaptation. Cheers.

>

> I'd refrain from saying "power" reaper if I were you. History prove that the more they buff "power" reaper, the more it feel like a nerf.

>

> Let's just say: Nerf scourge, buff reaper survivability a bit and please bring the core necromancer death shroud up to date. Not that I would mind if they suddenly taught the golem how to swim or siple things like that...

>

> There are so much things that feel wrong with the necromancer that I'd almost think that they designed the profession to feel wrong.

 

You know what you're right i guess i was just daring them out of frustration.

[Vag.5682]

I haven't seen anyone using numbers just bs theorycrafitng.

 

Also from what I can see in top 100 rnaking scourge numbers are fairly balance unless someone has any other info to share.

 

On top of thaty scourge sucks in solo pvp and sucks in general pve.

 

No serious developer will balance with random low lvl pvp in mind which usually the whine threads are coming from

 

[vicious.5683]

People have been playing MMOs for years and still don't understand the concept of glass cannon.

[Crinn.7864]

> @"vicious.5683" said:

> People have been playing MMOs for years and still don't understand the concept of glass cannon.

 

Scourge isn't glass though.

[Meetshield.1756]

Crinn, there are 3 Game modes. Take your scourge hate to PVP forum where it belongs.

 

Scourge is a support class, any nerf's to damage will just make it a Support only class. in WvW its COR from Rev Hammers and Winds of D from Warriors that are the issue. In PVE I don't really know what if anything needs changing... I think Thief needs some buffs maybe? Anyway I just feel that there has been too much focus on PVP balance. Its time WvW balance gets a look.

[Meetshield.1756]

A simple fix for Scourge in ALL game modes might just be to have a lower Base Barrier value and a much Higher Healing Power coef on all barrier applications.

[Silv.9207]

Scourge is a glass cannon and for that can survive only if you're really good to use it. But 90% of the scourges you see in this game are glass cannon builds really easy to burst.

 

Looking to the actual scourge meta build, it's basicly a glass cannon. It have 560 of vitality but with his incredibly low amount of defensive skills (of every kind and also they're really bad anyway) can't survive to a burst anyway. The only way for a scourge to survive to a fight is win it, if the scourge can't win the fight can't not even survive to it. The main survavibility of the necro come from cripple and weakness, with some boon corruption to reduce a little the enemy strength. All the other defensive skills are more or less useless to seriously stop the enemy to kill you.

 

No mobility, bad defensive skills, defensive skills that don't scale based to the number of enemies, the damage is highly chained to the Fx skills, that Fx skills are immobile (still if the same skills also act from the necro itself), Fx skills grant both damage and defence to the necromancer and you have to chose if inflict damage or obtain defence and if the necro don't have enough LF can't inflict good damage and can't survive.

 

That build is really strong but can be heavly countered by a lot of classes and builds. The fact that you don't face only a single enemy but a full team is not so much important because that's the same for your opponent.

 

The only thing a necromancer have is it's AoE condition damage, if you remove it you remove the scourge from the game.

Nerf it to the medium tier will make it totally disappear, with no other effect than remove a class from the game.

 

There's different things to do than nerf it's damage, like nerf it's cripple spam and it's AoE area in different ways. That should be a good nerf to make it weaker enough to make medium players don't cry too much and good players able to fight it and fight with it at high levels.

 

At high levels in sPvP there's not so much scourges and they're not so insanely strong.

 

 

That was the same thing as the old DragonHunter. It had strong AoE damage with traps and huge point control. two of them was able to totally control a point, exactly as the scourge actually do. But at high levels against skilled players tha DH was mediocre, the same is for the scourge.

If you play scourge find someone that know how to fight you, expecially if use one of the different builds able to Counter you, there's no chance for you to win.

 

Scourge is really strong but have different counters that can kill it fast because the scourge don't have good defensive skills and can't flee because don't have mobility.

[Aeolus.3615]

> @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > @"Aeolus.3615" said:

> > > @"ToPNoP.2493" said:

> > > I know this is a pvp post, but scourge is too strong in wvw also. really, nothing pre pof can beat it at the same skill level. and a scourge can walk past a firebrand and anhilate it with one ring attached to its body. Scourge is too easy to play and should be nerfed to support.

> >

> > but game is all about dps, they will never nerf the scourge damage output capability, classes and elite traits are designed based on how a pve player should feel the class workign for him.

> >

> > I took this line from some Anet video where some dev's was telling how a class should behave and a player should feel it, i think was from pre HoT, so basicly during HoT presentation.

>

> You want to tell me scourge is in a great spot from pve perspective?

>

> Hes definetly not in the upper half of the dmg potential of all classes

 

That might means they want to make scourge stronger, but cant since it is already OP due how broken and bad designed the game mechanic are(boons and condi stacks spamway everywhere).

Reason why scourge is suposed to be a barrier batery has compensation for not being the top notch dps spammer.

[Nimon.7840]

> @"Aeolus.3615" said:

> > @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > > @"Aeolus.3615" said:

> > > > @"ToPNoP.2493" said:

> > > > I know this is a pvp post, but scourge is too strong in wvw also. really, nothing pre pof can beat it at the same skill level. and a scourge can walk past a firebrand and anhilate it with one ring attached to its body. Scourge is too easy to play and should be nerfed to support.

> > >

> > > but game is all about dps, they will never nerf the scourge damage output capability, classes and elite traits are designed based on how a pve player should feel the class workign for him.

> > >

> > > I took this line from some Anet video where some dev's was telling how a class should behave and a player should feel it, i think was from pre HoT, so basicly during HoT presentation.

> >

> > You want to tell me scourge is in a great spot from pve perspective?

> >

> > Hes definetly not in the upper half of the dmg potential of all classes

>

> That might means they want to make scourge stronger, but cant since it is already OP due how broken and bad designed the game mechanic are(boons and condi stacks spamway everywhere).

> Reason why scourge is suposed to be a barrier batery has compensation for not being the top notch dps spammer.

 

I would agree. If you could get at least to a 75% uptime on barrier. Well i didnt test it out since last patch doe.

 

With the first impression of pof i was pretty hyped bout the scourge. Then i saw all the problems it could cause. And i sadly was right.

 

I dont thinke we will ever be meta in pve. Maybe 2 weeks, then another nerf will come.

 

Same goes for 1v1s. Even reaper, that is a selfish class, isnt good enough for that.

 

Necro isnt supposed to be great for teamplay in pve. Its still the do everything solo class.

 

Id really love to see reaper more buffed. Esp. For wvw. Where you could give the necro aomething for needing to go ham and go with frontline

 

[Dadnir.5038]

For the necromancer to become meta in PvE, anet would need to focus on tools that are vastly less dangerous when used against players. The issue lie there.

 

Want the necro to be meta in PvE? Just give it a very simple traitline à la weaver and shroud skills that have mechanisms close to other professions mechanisms. No more focus on condition management, no more "extra" health point. Just plain and simple damage buff and common survivability skills with hopefully standard unique support for your teammate.

 

Ironically, what shackle the necromancer is it's uniqueness. All it's unique tools (boon corruption, condition management, life siphon, even minions) are what prevent him from reaching a meta state. If you want to make him meta you just have to make sure it's on it's way toward a more "classic" gameplay which is less treatening for PvP and suit PvE a lot more.

[JustDemons.4358]

nerfing the dmg is not the right way to balance scourge.. you would just kill the class... dmg was already tocuhed and toned down multpiple times.. when do ppl finally accept that u dont melee down a scourge... its like u want to kill a lb ranger with a melee weapon.. it wont work!

 

instead of tocuhing the shade mechanic change the most boon conversion to boon removal... so we dont get perma feared anymore when we have stab.

[Aeolus.3615]

> @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > @"Aeolus.3615" said:

> > > @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > > > @"Aeolus.3615" said:

> > > > > @"ToPNoP.2493" said:

> > > > > I know this is a pvp post, but scourge is too strong in wvw also. really, nothing pre pof can beat it at the same skill level. and a scourge can walk past a firebrand and anhilate it with one ring attached to its body. Scourge is too easy to play and should be nerfed to support.

> > > >

> > > > but game is all about dps, they will never nerf the scourge damage output capability, classes and elite traits are designed based on how a pve player should feel the class workign for him.

> > > >

> > > > I took this line from some Anet video where some dev's was telling how a class should behave and a player should feel it, i think was from pre HoT, so basicly during HoT presentation.

> > >

> > > You want to tell me scourge is in a great spot from pve perspective?

> > >

> > > Hes definetly not in the upper half of the dmg potential of all classes

> >

> > That might means they want to make scourge stronger, but cant since it is already OP due how broken and bad designed the game mechanic are(boons and condi stacks spamway everywhere).

> > Reason why scourge is suposed to be a barrier batery has compensation for not being the top notch dps spammer.

>

> I would agree. If you could get at least to a 75% uptime on barrier. Well i didnt test it out since last patch doe.

>

> With the first impression of pof i was pretty hyped bout the scourge. Then i saw all the problems it could cause. And i sadly was right.

>

> I dont thinke we will ever be meta in pve. Maybe 2 weeks, then another nerf will come.

>

> Same goes for 1v1s. Even reaper, that is a selfish class, isnt good enough for that.

>

> Necro isnt supposed to be great for teamplay in pve. Its still the do everything solo class.

>

> Id really love to see reaper more buffed. Esp. For wvw. Where you could give the necro aomething for needing to go ham and go with frontline

>

 

That was suposed to be what scourge is all about, but initially the sable 15K barrier massive grroup , and all the aoe stack and spam made Anet actually nerf / change barrier stacking.

It also ended not to be that cause in this game players need damage to be carried, damage is bad designed, since theres no classes with **decent** trade off mechanics, all need some sorta power creep and/or spam capability due how game is bad designed from core, reason offense > defense in everything.

 

What i dont understand is how a game designer like Anet could achieve somethign so lame with lack of depth classes to make players feeel strong rather than get actually good with the combat, that even bad games tend not to have so much of this.

Scourge ended being a DSP condi class in a way cause that is the ONLY thing this game was ment for.

IF Anet makes scourge what was suposed to be on barrier players cry cause they want to 1vs1 and be carried, if Anet nerf barrier and makes scourge condi spammer players cry cause game is bad deisgned.

Reaper is actually strong on offense, it doest look strong for many players due the game is spam based to cut the gap nbetween good and bad players.

 

The game has to much aoe and stacking stuff, this is what Anet needs to cut 1st and make more clever gameplay before they learn how to balance classes.

But since PVE first, America second.... expect this game to get lamer with each expac.

 

Anet is doing a awful job on this game and dev's should feel bad about it....

[NekoNoKoi.9137]

Let's go through scourge game mode by game mode.

 

**PvE**

Used to be 1st place on small hit box (just a tiny bit more dps - about 1k- than whatever 2nd place was). Anet's 'bug fix' promptly took scourge and binned it. There is not even a single meta necro build for PvE, nevermind scourge.

 

**PvP**

Here's the thing about scourge (and this can often be applied to almost all necro builds in general). It's a team fight class. You normally won't be pushing anywhere except mid, or wherever your firebrand carry is, because you have **almost no defence mechanisms whatsoever.** The current Metabattle gives you:

1. 1 stack of stab + stunbreak with Trail of Anguish

2. stunbreak and condi transfer with Plague Signet

3. Spectral Armour / Sand Swell gives either a stunbreak, protection and LF generation or a pretty slow and easily interrupted port.

And that's it. You no longer have a 2nd health bar and have barrier instead, which might keep you alive for 2-3 hits more. You rely almost entirely on your firebrand to keep you alive whilst you deal damage, unless you don't have one, in which case you make yourself as difficult a target as possible through positioning/kiting and hope the enemies die before you.

On the upside, scourge obviously has the potential to put out a lot of damage through AoE/single target corrupts and condi pressure. If the enemy for some reason decides to try and tank something like your elite or F5 then they'll take a lot of damage (and rightly so) However, this elite has a cooldown and so do scourge F skills (as well as a decent life force cost). It's disingenuous to suggest that scourge can maintain maximum pressure on a point and that they're permanently impossible to step on. Yes, you're probably going to die if you tank a full burst from a scourge, but that's like staying in a meteor shower or spellbreaker bubble and complaining you're dying.

That being said, I do think that some of the shade animations and the elite could definitely use some tweaking to make them more distinguishable, and to make the elite perhaps a bit more obvious. If you summon a shade and then use F2 or F3, they look the same (if i remember correctly) but the effect on the enemy is completely different.

 

**WvW**

Zerging: Meta as always. Not sure what else to say.

Roaming: Necro doesn't really excel in 1v1/1vX, and scourge is no different. You have almost no stab, so stomping or chain CC are an issue. As previously mentioned, you have almost no defence and arguably even less moveability than reaper (almost no swiftness without warhorn and you probably won't be running spectral walk, also no necrocopter), so unless you're able to portal up a cliff etc, you probably won't be getting away. That's not to say that it's impossible to escape on scourge ever, but classes like mesmer/warrior/thief/revenant generally won't have any trouble keeping up with you.

That being said, whilst fighting 1 scourge is generally pretty reasonable, trying to 1v2 them is a solid way to have a brain aneurysm, because if they're even semi-decent then nothing in this game can deal with that amount of corrupt :>

 

Overall, I don't think scourge needs any nerfs. It is, for all intents and purposes, a glass cannon which shines when teamed up with firebrand. The damage is offset by its lacklustre defence and has been nerfed already to be generally pretty reasonable (unless you decide to tank the elite etc, in which case _what were you expecting?_) It could do with some animation changes to make certain F skills and their effects more distinguishable, however.

[ToPNoP.2493]

Maybe it is just the thief build I play, but scourge seems very strong. If it is in roaming gear (*vipers), I can not fight it no matter the pilot. 8 condi's when I can only clear 3, and exhaustion shuts me down so dodge/kite becomes impossible. So I run, such is the life of thief. If a zerg has 2 fb (alternating f2 and f3), 2 scourge, and one rev/chrono in every team of 5, it will be unbeatable.

[Nimon.7840]

> @"ToPNoP.2493" said:

> Maybe it is just the thief build I play, but scourge seems very strong. If it is in roaming gear (*vipers), I can not fight it no matter the pilot. 8 condi's when I can only clear 3, and exhaustion shuts me down so dodge/kite becomes impossible. So I run, such is the life of thief. If a zerg has 2 fb (alternating f2 and f3), 2 scourge, and one rev/chrono in every team of 5, it will be unbeatable.

 

Go play deadeye. You will be killing every necro spec. You will have so many teleports, shadowsteps and invis, necro cant follow. Hes just an immobile piece of crap

[Zero.3871]

> @"ToPNoP.2493" said:

> Maybe it is just the thief build I play, but scourge seems very strong. If it is in roaming gear (*vipers), I can not fight it no matter the pilot. 8 condi's when I can only clear 3, and exhaustion shuts me down so dodge/kite becomes impossible. So I run, such is the life of thief. If a zerg has 2 fb (alternating f2 and f3), 2 scourge, and one rev/chrono in every team of 5, it will be unbeatable.

 

i am wondering because all people everytime argument with condi cleanse. there are way more options to counter condis. thief have nearly endless amount of dodges so for necros its really hard to hit a thief. you can negate 90% of scourge attacks by dodging. and if you get hitted by him ( happened rarely) than you can use your condi cleanse.

 

also with p/p thief you will delete every necro (scourge, too) from game. just spam unload or pistol 4 and you will automatically win...

[Sarrs.4831]

Cast time on Desert Shroud.

Maybe change the width buff Sand Savant gives you to only affect your shade, not you.

 

From a WvW perspective the issue is that Trailblazer's is so good. To counter that add runes and sigils that cleanse or send condis.