More “paths” to legendary gear...

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> That benefits no one.

>

>

They will give you new rewards to go for and keep you happy don't worry.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > That benefits no one.

> >

> >

> They will give you new rewards to go for and keep you happy don't worry.

 

But I'm still unhappy about not having Envoy armor, so clearly they've already failed at that.

[Evolute.6239]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Evolute.6239" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> >

> > >

> > > Yes, it's called "evolution."

> >

> > It's called pointless entitlement.

> >

>

> It can be both.

>

> > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > That's your opinion. I do have fun playing the game, but I have less fun than I could be because I can't meaningfully progress towards certain goals I have in the game. They could make the game *more* fun by providing those paths. I should not have to choose between "having less fun because I'm doing an activity I don't enjoy" or "having less fun because I can never get certain items I want."

> > >

> >

> > That's your opinion but it's unlikely to ever happen. Instead, they will add new rewards to go after with every release, to keep you with enough goals.

>

> But again, rewards are not fungible. The rewards people want are the rewards people want. It's not about them providing a sufficient "quantity" of rewards, if those rewards do not appeal to the people they are available to. You seem to not care what you get,. so long as it's difficult to get. Most people do not think that way. If you have a pool of players, and you offer two tracks, A and B, that each offer different rewards, some players will like both tracks and both rewards, some will like neither, but there will be plenty of people who prefer the activities of track A over B, and vice versa, and there's plenty of people who will prefer the reward that A offers over B's, and vice versa, and there's absolutely NO way to sync those two state up, there is guaranteed to be plenty of players who will not be able to earn their preferred reward through their preferred activity, and that means that their enjoyment of the game *will* be compromised.

>

> That benefits no one.

>

>

 

In an ideal world with endless resources, there would be an extreme amount of content and rewards for all game modes, playstyles, etc.

 

In reality there isn't and adding endgame rewards to three (usually) team-based roles that require specific goals to succeed is a good middleground for rewarding people who play the gamemodes that keep players interested.

 

I have zero issues if they added a legendary armor set that requires actual effort, takes about the same amount of time commitment as WvW and involves some open world PVE activities that need to be done (like specific events done, map completion across all zones, etc). But that's a lot of work for what would require them to artifically timegate or make it very grindy in order to continue making legendary armor prestige worthy. If someone has lego armor, I know they've done a lot of one game mode.

 

And towards that end, since it's the casual playerbase who might want this and doesnt enjoy raids, wvw, or spvp (which is like 75% of the endgame so I'm confused here) I'm not sure they would commit to a long legendary armor grind as well. It would be for such a small subset of players who wouldnt do those other gamemodes.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > That benefits no one.

> > >

> > >

> > They will give you new rewards to go for and keep you happy don't worry.

>

> But I'm still unhappy about not having Envoy armor, so clearly they've already failed at that.

 

Then they have to add rewards that you like so your unhappiness for not getting Envoy is lessened. At least as long as they add things for you, you won't leave the game, which is a win. Now if the time comes and you *only* want the Envoy armor then I don't know, tough choice then.

[STIHL.2489]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > That benefits no one.

> >

> >

> They will give you new rewards to go for and keep you happy don't worry.

 

How do you know?

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > That benefits no one.

> > >

> > >

> > They will give you new rewards to go for and keep you happy don't worry.

>

> How do you know?

 

How do I know that they will always add new rewards for players to go after??? I don't know, I think it's the logical thing for a game company to do.

[STIHL.2489]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > That benefits no one.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > They will give you new rewards to go for and keep you happy don't worry.

> >

> > How do you know?

>

> How do I know that they will always add new rewards for players to go after??? I don't know, I think it's the logical thing for a game company to do.

 

How do you know they will **keep us happy**?

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> How do you know they will **keep us happy**?

 

I don't know, if you weren't happy with their rewards already you'd have left. They must be doing something good with them to keep you here so I'm guessing their new ones will also be likable.

[STIHL.2489]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > How do you know they will **keep us happy**?

>

> I don't know, if you weren't happy with their rewards already you'd have left. They must be doing something good with them to keep you here so I'm guessing their new ones will also be likable.

 

Humm yah.. how may thousands of posts have we both read about people unhappy with the rewards.. that looks like a reading failure on your part there.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > How do you know they will **keep us happy**?

> >

> > I don't know, if you weren't happy with their rewards already you'd have left. They must be doing something good with them to keep you here so I'm guessing their new ones will also be likable.

>

> Humm yah.. how may thousands of posts have we both read about people unhappy with the rewards.. that looks like a reading failure on your part there.

 

What are they doing here then? :)

Unhappy in general maybe, but there is always something people like, otherwise they wouldn't be here anymore. And if they don't like any rewards then that's way beyond the legendary armors and the topic of this thread.

[STIHL.2489]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > How do you know they will **keep us happy**?

>

> I don't know, if you weren't happy with their rewards already you'd have left. They must be doing something good with them to keep you here so I'm guessing their new ones will also be likable.

 

But at least you admit you have no idea and are just guessing.. bad thing to do... very bad... and just because people have not jumped ship, flipped the bird and walked away.. does not mean they are happy, in fact, it's been proven that social motives are the number one reason among casuals to stay with an MMO. so they will, if they have a good social network.. keep playing long after the game has ceased to be fun for them.

 

You really should read the Topic about "do you trust Anet" or at the very least, watch the video.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> You really should read the Topic about "do you trust Anet" or at the very least, watch the video.

 

I already watched it :)

Doesn't really apply here.

[STIHL.2489]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > You really should read the Topic about "do you trust Anet" or at the very least, watch the video.

>

> I already watched it :)

> Doesn't really apply here.

 

It does.. but.. sure.. lets go with that... Not worth it to fight you at this point.

[Ahlen.7591]

> @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > @Cerberus.4315 said:

> > > @TexZero.7910 said:

> > > Gonna go with no.

> > > The current system is fine and there's no reason to change it to placate the OW only crowd.

> >

> > owpve has got to out number all other game modes together 10 to 1, without those players u wouldn't hav a game within 3 months

>

> and if everyone in said modes had legendary armor its prestige and wow factor would be 0. Thus it needs to be in modes where people have to actually put forth a dedicated effort to attain it.

>

> Sorry you don't like that, but im sure if you group with the 10 other people to the 1 that already raids, you can get through it.

 

lol, how do you even know if someone has legendary armor? The skins are ugly as hell so everyone just re-skins it.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Evolute.6239" said:

> In an ideal world with endless resources, there would be an extreme amount of content and rewards for all game modes, playstyles, etc.

 

Again, **it is not about quantity.** It is not about *"enough."* If you offer me a hundred rewards that I don't particularly care about, while withholding one reward that I *do* care about, then that is not a "fair trade-off."

 

So it has absolutely nothing to do with "an ideal world with endless resources," I'm not asking them to create any more rewards than they already offer. All I'm asking is that they provide different ways of acquiring the *existing* rewards.

 

>If someone has lego armor, I know they've done a lot of one game mode.

 

And that might change, but it's OK for that to change. The value in you "knowing that they've done a lot of one game mode" is outweighed by the value in that person having the armor skin he wanted to have. *His* interests in this case are more important than yours are, because we're talking about what *he* has.

 

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> Then they have to add rewards that you like so your unhappiness for not getting Envoy is lessened. At least as long as they add things for you, you won't leave the game, which is a win. Now if the time comes and you *only* want the Envoy armor then I don't know, tough choice then.

 

Again though, piling up a bunch of other new rewards to make up for one existing reward being unavailable is an inefficient and ineffective process, when it would just be far simpler to make the existing armor more accessible.

[STIHL.2489]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Evolute.6239" said:

> > In an ideal world with endless resources, there would be an extreme amount of content and rewards for all game modes, playstyles, etc.

>

> Again, **it is not about quantity.** It is not about *"enough."* If you offer me a hundred rewards that I don't particularly care about, while withholding one reward that I *do* care about, then that is not a "fair trade-off."

>

 

They will pretend not to understand this.. until you take something away from them.

[Linken.6345]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > @"Evolute.6239" said:

> > > In an ideal world with endless resources, there would be an extreme amount of content and rewards for all game modes, playstyles, etc.

> >

> > Again, **it is not about quantity.** It is not about *"enough."* If you offer me a hundred rewards that I don't particularly care about, while withholding one reward that I *do* care about, then that is not a "fair trade-off."

> >

>

> They will pretend not to understand this.. until you take something away from them.

 

It was never taken away from you tho, its still there just have to do the content to get it.

I to was against looking legendary armor behind raids, alot of people complained and now its spread out to wvw and spvp aswell.

So people like you that dont want to raid got your long term goal already start wvwing or spvping.

 

Edit

Havent seen a raider or a fractal runner complain that aurora aint earnable in their game mode as of yet.

I wonder why.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> Again though, piling up a bunch of other new rewards to make up for one existing reward being unavailable is an inefficient and ineffective process, when it would just be far simpler to make the existing armor more accessible.

 

It's the process that is used anyway, so unless there is evidence that is not working, and I mean actual data, not what we have access to, there is no need for changes. If, and that's a big if, the data show otherwise I'm sure they will make changes. I mean they've made loads of changes over the years based on data, for example, the addition of Ascended, was because their data showed lack of interest and players leaving the game not having anything more to do.

 

You say it's inefficient, but as long as it keeps players interested in the game, it's a valid process. And no a forum warrior telling that is not, is not enough "data" to state otherwise. I think we can all agree that they **do** have data, and much like the Ascended change they will do something if their data requires it.

[STIHL.2489]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > Again though, piling up a bunch of other new rewards to make up for one existing reward being unavailable is an inefficient and ineffective process, when it would just be far simpler to make the existing armor more accessible.

>

> It's the process that is used anyway, so unless there is evidence that is not working, and I mean actual data, not what we have access to, there is no need for changes.

 

I am going to assume You mean of course, something beyond the continual decline in sales? Because often (not always) continual decline in sales is a sign that the plan is not working.

 

Now.. sure it could be unrelated.. and I am going to bet, that is what you will cling to.. have at it.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > Again though, piling up a bunch of other new rewards to make up for one existing reward being unavailable is an inefficient and ineffective process, when it would just be far simpler to make the existing armor more accessible.

> >

> > It's the process that is used anyway, so unless there is evidence that is not working, and I mean actual data, not what we have access to, there is no need for changes.

>

> I am going to assume You mean of course, something beyond the continual decline in sales? Because often (not always) continual decline in sales is a sign that the plan is not working.

>

> Now.. sure it could be unrelated.. and I am going to bet, that is what you will cling to.. have at it.

 

If you think that the drop in sales is a result of Envoy armor being locked behind Raids then I really don't have anything else to say.

Have fun! Or not, at this point I don't care!

[Lunateric.3708]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > Again though, piling up a bunch of other new rewards to make up for one existing reward being unavailable is an inefficient and ineffective process, when it would just be far simpler to make the existing armor more accessible.

> > >

> > > It's the process that is used anyway, so unless there is evidence that is not working, and I mean actual data, not what we have access to, there is no need for changes.

> >

> > I am going to assume You mean of course, something beyond the continual decline in sales? Because often (not always) continual decline in sales is a sign that the plan is not working.

> >

> > Now.. sure it could be unrelated.. and I am going to bet, that is what you will cling to.. have at it.

>

> If you think that the drop in sales is a result of Envoy armor being locked behind Raids then I really don't have anything else to say.

> Have fun! Or not, at this point I don't care!

 

This person may actually believe it. It has nothing to do with the game being over 5 years old and the MMO market being phased out by mobile gaming, MOBAs, PUBG like games... It actually **is** envoy armor, gasp!

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Linken.6345" said:

> Edit

> Havent seen a raider or a fractal runner complain that aurora aint earnable in their game mode as of yet.

> I wonder why.

 

That's entirely their business, and has nothing to do with anything being asked here.

 

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> It's the process that is used anyway, so unless there is evidence that is not working, and I mean actual data, not what we have access to, there is no need for changes. If, and that's a big if, the data show otherwise I'm sure they will make changes. I mean they've made loads of changes over the years based on data, for example, the addition of Ascended, was because their data showed lack of interest and players leaving the game not having anything more to do.

 

I don't really see how "data" can indicate something like this. It's a matter of individual preference, so you can't just "determine" what people are thinking about these sorts of things. The only way to collect "data" on this would be via polling, and to the best of my knowledge, ANet does not do this.

 

>If you think that the drop in sales is a result of Envoy armor being locked behind Raids then I really don't have anything else to say.

 

Why not? Where is your data showing that people who left the game didn't do so because of raid ennui?

 

[STIHL.2489]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> Why not? Where is your data showing that people who left the game didn't do so because of raid ennui?

>

They have no better grasp why Anet sales are falling then a random drunk on the street.

 

All they will believe is that what makes them feel special can't be the cause. Maybe there is no relation, but..lets face facts.. before HoT sales were distinctly higher then After HoT, and have only gone down hill since. PoF gave a small spike.. (as to be expected).. but the truth is, HoT introduced something into the game that has continually driven people to either leave.. or spend less.

 

But you know.. it could all be due to that pesky gliding.. what do I know.

[STIHL.2489]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> I don't really see how "data" can indicate something like this. It's a matter of individual preference, so you can't just "determine" what people are thinking about these sorts of things. The only way to collect "data" on this would be via polling, and to the best of my knowledge, ANet does not do this.

 

Anet does not have a means to just know why people leave or stay, they have staff reading the forums, reddit, facebook, and whatever, other social media they can find to try and feel out how to improve the game, to understand what players want, and the like. But they don't have some hidden metrics telling them that people are leaving for this reason or that reason. They know what game modes are being played, they know who is doing what in the game itself.. but if someone just stops playing, they have no way to really know why.

 

Truth is, games don't die from one thing, like, legendary Armor being locked behind raids, is most likely no a big enough issue to really do serious damage to them, but, if coupled with other unfavorable design implementations ,it can very easy be the "final nail in the coffin" or "the straw that broke the camels back"

 

However, in these cases, rescinding the Raid armor, won't fix the problem, because it was just "one more thing"

 

Much like.. WoW taking a hit of 4 million subs over the course of 3 years, (That is the loss of 4 million active accounts over a 3 year span, going from 12 million to 8 million), It would stand to reason that there was no "One thing" that really finally caused those players to just up and leave. You just know, it had to be a series of things that had been building up over time.

 

The other problem is, MMO's are social games, so if some people leave because of a problem.. others will leave for no other reason then their friends moved on to another game.

 

This, it's really impossible to isolate a single problem when it comes to vast systems like an MMO, as its always going to be more then one thing. Some things being far more petty and others being far more reasonable.. but still, it's always going to be a collection of issues that drive players away or inspire them to spend less. To deny Legendary Armor being locked behind Raids as having an impact to the attrition of players is downright imbecilic, but to blame them squarely would also be ignorance.

 

Can what has been done be fixed? Maybe.. maybe not. Some people think just putting more grind is the answer, and perhaps, for some it is, for others it's not. But if we don't express our feelings that we don't like something, how will Anet even have a place to start to try and make some kind of compromise that might benefit the majority of it's player base.

 

It matters not what other players think of my or anyone else reasons to leave a game, or stay around, they are not making the game, Anet is.. so when we post praise or dissent .. we post to be heard by Anet.. everyone else may as well be a talking head NPC.

[IndigoSundown.5419]

If you'd asked me in late 2012 for the cause of players deserting the game, I would have said, "PvP was not sufficiently engaging compared to GW2's competition." That's because my guild -- several hundred players -- went from an average of 200+ online every time I looked to myself and maybe 1 other online inside a week. However, that alone is not the reason. Neither is anyone else's pet peeve.

 

The observed drop in revenue for GW2 over 5+ years is far more likely to be due to a large number of reasons, rather than a single cause or any subset of causes. Every complaint unaddressed over the years had the potential to bleed players. Given just how many complaints have been left unaddressed (or were addressed too late), the possible causes number in the thousands. Some of those complaints likely caused more player bleed than others, but that does not mean they were the "proximate cause" of the diminishing revenue.

 

Over the years, ANet has tried to respond to complaints. They've left a lot of the complaints unaddressed. Maybe they will respond to this one. Maybe not. However, it seems unlikely in the extreme at this late stage that failure to provide access to a single tier of rewards by a greater number of paths is going to be the straw that breaks the pack dolyak's back.