Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]

[yann.1946]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> I make no such claims beyond that which is self-evident.

>

 

Very few claims are self-evident. Otherwise we

Wouldn't have Thijs discussion.

 

They may appear so. But that doesn't make it true

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> >Fair enough, and while "trying" or "aiming to" means diddly squat in an actual scientific debate, it sure shows a lot more effort from one side.

>

> I prefer deliberate honestly to reckless effort. Better to take a single step in the right direction than ten steps in the opposite one. Just because someone is willing to throw chaff at a topic doesn't mean that they are somehow more worthwhile than someone who just sticks to the truth.

 

You keep doing this, you throw words in trying to change the meaning of your initially pretended to be neutral statement.

 

What you perceive as "truth" is nothing but your personal subjective opinion. You claiming otherwise or trying to claim the "truth" or superiority is simply not true. It's this kind of constant approach which let's people see you as arrogant. You do NOT have a superior standing compared to any one else thus your words is just as of little value as any one else. No matter how often you try to claim so.

 

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

>

> >You are free to disagree as much as you want, credibility comes from providing contrary data though, not just nitpicking.

>

> I can't speak for how you choose to parse the news, but overall that's a terrible philosophy. Pointing out faulty data should be considered as important as providing > new data, either one is bringing the discussion closer to the truth.

 

True, and if you stick to scientific methods you would do so by giving a contrary analysis, pointing out mistakes in the data, acquisition of said data or math while providing a superior or revised data set. You have been nothing but talk.

 

Money talk, kittenshit walks (putting a spoiler here because I don't want to be in breach of curse words on the forums):

>! https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Money%20Talks%2C%20Bullshit%20Walks

 

Put your money were your mouth is and backup your claims or expect to not get taken serious. Or as you mentioned be honest about only representing your own personal opinion and beliefs and stop rephrasing your answers with hidden meaning changing words (or worst case take a language class if need be).

 

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

>

> >But yes, we can agree on both sides mostly stating opinions and beliefs, which are no basis on which a developer should or has to act.

>

> No, again, developers *should* consider opinions and beliefs, they are producing an entertainment product, after all, there's nothing "objective" about it. Now they should collect as broad a spectrum as possible of opinions, but their business is built on opinions.

 

True, and once they've made clear where they stand one can assume they have taken opinions into consideration, especially when they have been as clear as they have been here. You are literally beating a dead horse at this point.

 

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

>

> >Yet you define the self-evident and debunk other people very rational claims, again with merely stating "I believe thus it must be true". Which is fine, but don't expect people to not call you out on it.

>

> That's your opinion, which I assure you I value as much as you value mine.

>

 

Yes, and was again proven in your last answer which I have commented on at the top of this post.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> Why would I do that? AC is level 35 content, doable solo easily, you can out-gear and out-level it. VG and Dhuum are both not solo friendly at all. Arah isn't solo friendly either (doable but not very easy).

 

In case you've lost the plot, we've been discussing perhaps adding an easy mode raid, so the reasonable comparison would be to *easy* instanced content, not to the most challenging instanced content in the game (of that time). And while some people have soloed AC, most don't do that, particularly not people who would be the target audience of easy mode raids.

 

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

>What you perceive as "truth" is nothing but your personal subjective opinion. You claiming otherwise or trying to claim the "truth" or superiority is simply not true. It's this kind of constant approach which let's people see you as arrogant. You do NOT have a superior standing compared to any one else thus your words is just as of little value as any one else. No matter how often you try to claim so.

 

Ok.

 

>True, and if you stick to scientific methods you would do so by giving a contrary analysis, pointing out mistakes in the data, acquisition of said data or math while providing a superior or revised data set. You have been nothing but talk.

 

I've pointed out how Doc's "data sets" are from a biased source and cannot reasonably be applied to "solve" the questions he poses with them. I don't see how I could do anything more than that with the "data" offered.

 

>True, and once they've made clear where they stand one can assume they have taken opinions into consideration, especially when they have been as clear as they have been here. You are literally beating a dead horse at this point.

 

Positions change. In 2013 they were never ever going to have raids. In 2015 they were never ever going to have mounts. They made their position clear at one point, that's not binding on where their future could be. I retain hope that they can come around.

[Voltekka.2375]

> @"nia.4725" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > @"nia.4725" said:

> > > > @"gonandro.4768" said:

> > > > Are raids too hard for you?: find a group, SUCK at raids, die a lot, and eventually you'll learn and acutally enjoy them; trust me, It worked for me.

> > > > Are raids too easy for you?: Step out of the meta, do CM'S with new and original comps, do 6-7 man raids. whatever.

> > > >

> > > > Sheesh, anet you've spoiled your players too much. leave them just like that you've done a pretty nice job.

> > >

> > > I can imagine anet devs laughing and eating popcorn, watching us arguing endlessly and stupidly about things they do have completely decided... If they even read it still, because honestly, after so many pages and so many repetition I think they must be very bored of this topic.

> >

> > I doubt they actually do read this. Certainly not the 10th back and forth which has happened by now. I do believe they are keeping an eye on player activity for the game mode and are making decisions based on their sets of data.

> >

> > In the grand scheme of things though, raids are made by a small team (which are doing an amazing job for their supposed size) and in the day to day and overall game design raids probably don't take up a very significant chunk of time. Not like say living world episodes or a possible next expansion. Which will likely have the major chunk of work dedicated to them.

> >

> > Besides the artists and designers working on monetization skins for the Black Lion Store because money needs to come in from some where even if some people believe that their paltry couple of euros/dollers a few years back have provided the developers with huge bags of cash.

>

> I hope so. Whether they add an easy mode or not, I expect that decision to be made based on the actual numbers and the actual state of raids, not on some people's cries on a forum. They know much better than all of us, this thread is just nonsense from head to toe. We can't provide proof on anything, we can't "negotiate" like we are able to get a change in the game and the poll of this thread does not mean anything from neither side of the discussion. So... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

>

> I do not expect raids team to be bigger, and I'm okay with a raid every 6 months more or less. I don't want raids to become the new fractals where you pick some and do them like they're nothing. The first time I've become bored while raiding was two days ago, when I had already done almost 2 fullclears, and I felt the need to have some more bosses : / I completely understand, and I agree, that the big chunk of resources must be given to open world/living world. I'm happy with my small raid team releasing content when they can, the only thing I'd like to have is a raid balance team that understands how classes are used in raids and what is needed to balance them.

 

No worries, if ANET took peoples' cries seriously, mirage would have no elusive mind. Which, it does.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> In case you've lost the plot, we've been discussing perhaps adding an easy mode raid, so the reasonable comparison would be to *easy* instanced content, not to the most challenging instanced content in the game (of that time).

So in other words you do want to make it a solo experience? Because that "easy" instanced content is a solo experience.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > In case you've lost the plot, we've been discussing perhaps adding an easy mode raid, so the reasonable comparison would be to *easy* instanced content, not to the most challenging instanced content in the game (of that time).

> So in other words you do want to make it a solo experience? Because that "easy" instanced content is a solo experience.

 

/sigh.

[Sarrs.4831]

I mean if we're talking about instanced content we may as well point out that personal story and living story steps are also instanced content and they're pretty comfortable solo, and trivially easy in a group.

 

A 'solo mode' for raids is actually one of the only good solutions that I can see to providing access to an easier mode for people. It means that more people have access to the content and that the community isn't split, which is the best argument from a player standpoint against an easy mode.

 

Of course, you're not interested in a solo experience, because that means that would come with two champion bags, five loot bags and 25 volatile magic as a reward, not legendary armor.

 

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> Just because someone is willing to throw chaff at a topic doesn't mean that they are somehow more worthwhile than someone who just sticks to the truth.

 

Aren't you literally just here to throw chaff?

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Sarrs.4831" said:

>Of course, you're not interested in a solo experience, because that means that would come with two champion bags, five loot bags and 25 volatile magic as a reward, not legendary armor.

 

Why?

 

[Sarrs.4831]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Sarrs.4831" said:

> >Of course, you're not interested in a solo experience, because that means that would come with two champion bags, five loot bags and 25 volatile magic as a reward, not legendary armor.

>

> Why?

 

Why should anyone take your opinion seriously, when all you quote is the line about the loot, with a joke response? We get that you're only here because you've gotten the idea that you can argue your way to legendary armor, but can you at least keep pretending otherwise?

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Sarrs.4831" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > @"Sarrs.4831" said:

> > >Of course, you're not interested in a solo experience, because that means that would come with two champion bags, five loot bags and 25 volatile magic as a reward, not legendary armor.

> >

> > Why?

>

> Why should anyone take your opinion seriously, when all you quote is the line about the loot, with a joke response? We get that you're only here because you've gotten the idea that you can argue your way to legendary armor, but can you at least keep pretending otherwise?

 

I'm serious. Why do you believe that a solo experience could only ever come with "come with two champion bags, five loot bags and 25 volatile magic as a reward, not legendary armor?" What is it about being carried by nine other people that you believe makes you more deserving of a reward than someone who manages it himself?

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Sarrs.4831" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > @"Sarrs.4831" said:

> > > >Of course, you're not interested in a solo experience, because that means that would come with two champion bags, five loot bags and 25 volatile magic as a reward, not legendary armor.

> > >

> > > Why?

> >

> > Why should anyone take your opinion seriously, when all you quote is the line about the loot, with a joke response? We get that you're only here because you've gotten the idea that you can argue your way to legendary armor, but can you at least keep pretending otherwise?

>

> I'm serious. Why do you believe that a solo experience could only ever come with "come with two champion bags, five loot bags and 25 volatile magic as a reward, not legendary armor?" What is it about being carried by nine other people that you believe makes you more deserving of a reward than someone who manages it himself?

 

The fact that you insist for 87 pages on doing it yourself instead of getting carried by nine other people.

[Sarrs.4831]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Sarrs.4831" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > @"Sarrs.4831" said:

> > > >Of course, you're not interested in a solo experience, because that means that would come with two champion bags, five loot bags and 25 volatile magic as a reward, not legendary armor.

> > >

> > > Why?

> >

> > Why should anyone take your opinion seriously, when all you quote is the line about the loot, with a joke response? We get that you're only here because you've gotten the idea that you can argue your way to legendary armor, but can you at least keep pretending otherwise?

>

> I'm serious. Why do you believe that a solo experience could only ever come with "come with two champion bags, five loot bags and 25 volatile magic as a reward, not legendary armor?" What is it about being carried by nine other people that you believe makes you more deserving of a reward than someone who manages it himself?

 

Pretty simple: I don't get carried.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Sarrs.4831" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > @"Sarrs.4831" said:

> > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > @"Sarrs.4831" said:

> > > > >Of course, you're not interested in a solo experience, because that means that would come with two champion bags, five loot bags and 25 volatile magic as a reward, not legendary armor.

> > > >

> > > > Why?

> > >

> > > Why should anyone take your opinion seriously, when all you quote is the line about the loot, with a joke response? We get that you're only here because you've gotten the idea that you can argue your way to legendary armor, but can you at least keep pretending otherwise?

> >

> > I'm serious. Why do you believe that a solo experience could only ever come with "come with two champion bags, five loot bags and 25 volatile magic as a reward, not legendary armor?" What is it about being carried by nine other people that you believe makes you more deserving of a reward than someone who manages it himself?

>

> Pretty simple: I don't get carried.

 

You aren't answering the question. You posed your statement as if it was self evident, it shouldn't be difficult for you to explain it. Why do *you* believe that a solo experience should *never* be worthy of anything more than "two champion bags, five loot bags and 25 volatile magic as a reward, not legendary armor?"

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Sarrs.4831" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > @"Sarrs.4831" said:

> > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > > @"Sarrs.4831" said:

> > > > > >Of course, you're not interested in a solo experience, because that means that would come with two champion bags, five loot bags and 25 volatile magic as a reward, not legendary armor.

> > > > >

> > > > > Why?

> > > >

> > > > Why should anyone take your opinion seriously, when all you quote is the line about the loot, with a joke response? We get that you're only here because you've gotten the idea that you can argue your way to legendary armor, but can you at least keep pretending otherwise?

> > >

> > > I'm serious. Why do you believe that a solo experience could only ever come with "come with two champion bags, five loot bags and 25 volatile magic as a reward, not legendary armor?" What is it about being carried by nine other people that you believe makes you more deserving of a reward than someone who manages it himself?

> >

> > Pretty simple: I don't get carried.

>

> You aren't answering the question. You posed your statement as if it was self evident, it shouldn't be difficult for you to explain it. Why do *you* believe that a solo experience should *never* be worthy of anything more than "two champion bags, five loot bags and 25 volatile magic as a reward, not legendary armor?"

 

Will you stop trolling already? It is obvious - group content is much more challenging. Greater challenge = greater reward.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > @"Sarrs.4831" said:

> > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > @"Sarrs.4831" said:

> > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > > > @"Sarrs.4831" said:

> > > > > > >Of course, you're not interested in a solo experience, because that means that would come with two champion bags, five loot bags and 25 volatile magic as a reward, not legendary armor.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Why?

> > > > >

> > > > > Why should anyone take your opinion seriously, when all you quote is the line about the loot, with a joke response? We get that you're only here because you've gotten the idea that you can argue your way to legendary armor, but can you at least keep pretending otherwise?

> > > >

> > > > I'm serious. Why do you believe that a solo experience could only ever come with "come with two champion bags, five loot bags and 25 volatile magic as a reward, not legendary armor?" What is it about being carried by nine other people that you believe makes you more deserving of a reward than someone who manages it himself?

> > >

> > > Pretty simple: I don't get carried.

> >

> > You aren't answering the question. You posed your statement as if it was self evident, it shouldn't be difficult for you to explain it. Why do *you* believe that a solo experience should *never* be worthy of anything more than "two champion bags, five loot bags and 25 volatile magic as a reward, not legendary armor?"

>

> Will you stop trolling already? It is obvious - group content is much more challenging. Greater challenge = greater reward.

 

Why? Again, serious question. Doubly "why" actually, why do you believe group content is more challenging, and why do you believe that greater challenge must equal greater reward?

[Sarrs.4831]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> You posed your statement as if it was self evident, it shouldn't be difficult for you to explain it. Why do *you* believe that a solo experience should *never* be worthy of anything more than "two champion bags, five loot bags and 25 volatile magic as a reward, not legendary armor?"

 

That's not what I said. You can't win an argument with strawmen, and you won't win your legendary armor by arguing on the forums. Stop lying to yourself.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > @"Sarrs.4831" said:

> > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > > @"Sarrs.4831" said:

> > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Sarrs.4831" said:

> > > > > > > >Of course, you're not interested in a solo experience, because that means that would come with two champion bags, five loot bags and 25 volatile magic as a reward, not legendary armor.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Why?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Why should anyone take your opinion seriously, when all you quote is the line about the loot, with a joke response? We get that you're only here because you've gotten the idea that you can argue your way to legendary armor, but can you at least keep pretending otherwise?

> > > > >

> > > > > I'm serious. Why do you believe that a solo experience could only ever come with "come with two champion bags, five loot bags and 25 volatile magic as a reward, not legendary armor?" What is it about being carried by nine other people that you believe makes you more deserving of a reward than someone who manages it himself?

> > > >

> > > > Pretty simple: I don't get carried.

> > >

> > > You aren't answering the question. You posed your statement as if it was self evident, it shouldn't be difficult for you to explain it. Why do *you* believe that a solo experience should *never* be worthy of anything more than "two champion bags, five loot bags and 25 volatile magic as a reward, not legendary armor?"

> >

> > Will you stop trolling already? It is obvious - group content is much more challenging. Greater challenge = greater reward.

>

> Why? Again, serious question. Doubly "why" actually, why do you believe group content is more challenging, and why do you believe that greater challenge must equal greater reward?

 

Both are obvious.

First, the existence of skill interactions between players - boon/heal sharing, combos, reviving downed allies - means a group is more powerful than the sum of the powers of its members. In order to avoid trivializing, group content needs to be harder.

Second - because not doing results in a game where everyone goes the path of least resistance and gets bored in few weeks, tops.

[IndigoSundown.5419]

> @"FrizzFreston.5290" said:

> > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said:

> > The existence and design of Fractals raises interesting questions. If the design goal of raids was to be the hardest PvE content, as ANet stated, then the entirety of Fractals is a training ground for raids, complete with a ramping up of difficulty though the Fractal tiers. Then, raids offer a further opportunity for players not ready for the hardest raid encounters by providing bosses of varying difficulty.

> >

> > So, there are already two ramp-ups in difficulty which can prepare players to tackle the hardest raid encounters. With that in mind, it doesn't seem that further preparatory encounters should be needed for players who want to work up to raids. That means that a substantial number of those who might benefit from easy tier raids already have the opportunity to work into the existing raid structure. That leaves the people who won't touch raids as is unless the difficulty is stepped down because they are not interested in "working up to it," -- leaving aside whether that attitude ought to be catered to.

> >

> > I don't expect certain posters to accept this opinion. However, the answer to the question raised in the OP, "Do raids need an easy-normal-hard difficulty mode?" is a resounding, "No." The truth is that there are some individuals who "need" an easy mode, but only by the definition of need that reads, "A thing that is wanted or required." The thread has failed to prove that _the game_ needs more difficulty modes (according to the definition that reads, "circumstances in which something is necessary.")

>

> While I always would say "no" to the necessity of certain features and modes, the route(s) you propose as preparatory is far from ideal.

>

> Mostly stemming from being unintuitive ( Why cherrypick bosses in some seemingly random order) or rather boring and grindy (IE. getting to higher fractal levels or obtaining more agony in order get to the harder fractals has not much to do with preparing for raids.) to more smaller difference between the modes, like teamstructuring, teambuilding, squad vs party, necessity of certain roles or simply difference in mechanics.

>

> I definitely think the process of becoming ready for raids can be more streamlined or better indicated.

 

Most every path into instanced content in any MMO is not intuitive -- not really. What we see instead is that some of the initial adopters dig in and figure it out, somebody posts on a wiki, and/or makes a video and after a while there is ample information available about how to proceed. "Lack of a clear path" is only a large problem for people who don't want to spend any time learning. Sure, that group -- however large or small it might be -- is the group having trouble in the first place. So, how easy _would_ the process of becoming ready for raids have to be to accommodate people who want to just jump in and succeed, rather than becoming ready to succeed?

 

ANet added raids at a time when the vast majority of the population that would utilize raids had been doing fractals for a long time. While there are differences between the modes, a lot of the skills needed to succeed in high tier Fractals are needed to succeed at raids. such as the development of situational awareness, reflexes, learning builds and rotations, and learning how to work as a group. New players who were part of the target audience -- raiders from other games -- would expect to have to learn the ropes. Again, it is only the players not interested in that process who would have trouble figuring out how to prepare.

 

That's not to say that there _couldn't_ be more clarity, but that it seems unlikely that there _will be_ absent the "no foreknowledge" approach of an LFR blind-grouping tool.

[NotOverlyCheesy.9427]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > @"Sarrs.4831" said:

> > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > > @"Sarrs.4831" said:

> > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Sarrs.4831" said:

> > > > > > > >Of course, you're not interested in a solo experience, because that means that would come with two champion bags, five loot bags and 25 volatile magic as a reward, not legendary armor.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Why?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Why should anyone take your opinion seriously, when all you quote is the line about the loot, with a joke response? We get that you're only here because you've gotten the idea that you can argue your way to legendary armor, but can you at least keep pretending otherwise?

> > > > >

> > > > > I'm serious. Why do you believe that a solo experience could only ever come with "come with two champion bags, five loot bags and 25 volatile magic as a reward, not legendary armor?" What is it about being carried by nine other people that you believe makes you more deserving of a reward than someone who manages it himself?

> > > >

> > > > Pretty simple: I don't get carried.

> > >

> > > You aren't answering the question. You posed your statement as if it was self evident, it shouldn't be difficult for you to explain it. Why do *you* believe that a solo experience should *never* be worthy of anything more than "two champion bags, five loot bags and 25 volatile magic as a reward, not legendary armor?"

> >

> > Will you stop trolling already? It is obvious - group content is much more challenging. Greater challenge = greater reward.

>

> Why? Again, serious question. Doubly "why" actually, why do you believe group content is more challenging, and why do you believe that greater challenge must equal greater reward?

 

If you've read about philosophy of fairness then you'd know why. If you work more/harder you deserve more and if you work less/easier you deserve less.

[Siegy.7092]

I enjoy coming back to this thread every once in a while, even having some snacks while reading it. The amount of entitlement and cheap agendas here are cringeworthy at best. With the amount of time and energy that some spent writing and arguing here most would have already learned all encounters and gotten their Envoy armors on 2 characters. If you want something, work hard for it and stop making silly demands and blaming others for your own limitations, lazyness and incompetence.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > And then you compare Arah with VG, instead of comparing AC with VG and Arah with _Dhuum_. Figures.

> Why would I do that? AC is level 35 content, doable solo easily, you can out-gear and out-level it. VG and Dhuum are both not solo friendly at all. Arah isn't solo friendly either (doable but not very easy). I'm comparing things that are similar, in at least some way.

I'm pretty sure casual runners of the easy mode would _not_ want each boss battle to take 2-3 hours, like some of the Arah paths did for similar squads. Thus Arah is definitely not a good comparison.

 

And as for soloability? The people that could solo those paths are almost certainly ok with the current raid difficulty, and you can safely ignore them as far as easy mode goes. I doubt they were more than a few percent of those 60 for AC anyway. Many of them (if not all) could probably also solo all the soloable raid bosses, which would make those raid bosses solo content as well (and could probably solo all the rest if enrage wasn't a factor).

The same with level - only a tiny minority of players was able to do AC at level 30-35.

 

> You want me to compare something SOLO with group content, why would I ever do that, unless this easy mode for Raids is going to be a solo experience too. Then yes your comparison does sound appropriate, but is it going to be SOLO content?

 

No, i want you to apply the same considerations you apply to dungeons to raids as well. So, if you think the AC numbers are inflated due to it being the first dungeon, the same should hold true for VG (and thus comparing VG with the _last_ dungeon on the list should be a big no-no to you). If you think that soloablity disqualifies something, then Cairn numbers are also out.

 

Besides, as i mentioned, dungeons were never a solo content, no more than Sloth or Cairn are (well, with the obvious exception of current Arah story mode). It's the arument on the same level as "the current mode is already too easy, so no need for an even easier one". The people this argument applies to are not the one the easy mode would be for.

 

This gets back to what i said earlier: you not only use data that doesn't really tell you what you want to know, but you also manipulate it in such a way that the parts you do not like are ignored.

 

> @"Siegy.7092" said:

> I enjoy coming back to this thread every once in a while, even having some snacks while reading it. The amount of entitlement and cheap agendas here are cringeworthy at best. With the amount of time and energy that some spent writing and arguing here most would have already learned all encounters and gotten their Envoy armors on 2 characters. If you want something, work hard for it and stop making silly demands and blaming others for your own limitations, lazyness and incompetence.

Trust me, my arguing here has nothing to do with any sort of inability to get envoy armor. I do agree on entitlement and cheap agendas, though (although we might disagree about where those might come from).

[vesica tempestas.1563]

> @"Siegy.7092" said:

> I enjoy coming back to this thread every once in a while, even having some snacks while reading it. The amount of entitlement and cheap agendas here are cringeworthy at best. With the amount of time and energy that some spent writing and arguing here most would have already learned all encounters and gotten their Envoy armors on 2 characters. If you want something, work hard for it and stop making silly demands and blaming others for your own limitations, lazyness and incompetence.

 

Its opinions like this that gives raiders a bad name unfortunately with their 'must be lazy blah blah' attitude. The majority of players are actually adults with many years experience playing mmorpg including raids and have good reasons for not having the time to devote large timeblocks to a game and want raiding in the style you get on every other AAA mmorpg out there. This is 2018, not 2005.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > @"Siegy.7092" said:

> > I enjoy coming back to this thread every once in a while, even having some snacks while reading it. The amount of entitlement and cheap agendas here are cringeworthy at best. With the amount of time and energy that some spent writing and arguing here most would have already learned all encounters and gotten their Envoy armors on 2 characters. If you want something, work hard for it and stop making silly demands and blaming others for your own limitations, lazyness and incompetence.

>

> Its opinions like this that gives raiders a bad name unfortunately with their 'must be lazy blah blah' attitude. The majority of players are actually adults with many years experience playing mmorpg including raids and have good reasons for not having the time to devote large timeblocks to a game and want raiding in the style you get on every other AAA mmorpg out there. This is 2018, not 2005.

 

That's OK. Raiding is not mandatory, and neither are its rewards.

[Tyson.5160]

> @"Siegy.7092" said:

> I enjoy coming back to this thread every once in a while, even having some snacks while reading it. The amount of entitlement and cheap agendas here are cringeworthy at best. With the amount of time and energy that some spent writing and arguing here most would have already learned all encounters and gotten their Envoy armors on 2 characters. If you want something, work hard for it and stop making silly demands and blaming others for your own limitations, lazyness and incompetence.

 

So... do you believe you drummed up some inspiring words that will make people go play Raids, or make it easier for people who are struggling or do you generally like to insult people as a mode of motivation?

 

You haven’t really added anything to this conversation other then quick remarks and petty insults.

 

Who is lazy now?

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > You know.. Dungeons were a failure because they didn't bring in the Casual player. So can we spare us all that it was something to do with being easy that caused them to die, it wasn't.

> >

> > Dungeons only died because they were too easy and abandoned.

>

> Not true at all. I get that many _hardcore_ parrot this, but.. the main problem with dungeons had nothing to do with the difficulty of the explorer mode.

>

 

Dungeons were not well designed in regards to the actual capabilities of group play with proper stats. Every single dungeon in the game, every single explorable path, had devolved into corner stacking and instantly zerging down bosses. The end bosses of AC will all die in less than 10 seconds with a decent group. I remember Path 3 and the excruciatingly boring part where you have to destroy all the Graveling Burrows and they'd instantly die and you're just waiting around doing nothing waiting for the next one to spawn. Lupicus, designed to be the single hardest boss in the game boiled down to a 40 second encounter. They were a joke.

 

By 2013 pretty much everyone had done dungeons and gotten what they wanted from them. Right now 44% of accounts on GW2 statistics have the AC Greatsword alone.

 

They had plenty of traffic because they were good gold, but they were incredibly boring and effortless with decent players. Dungeons got nuked as a concept because they were _trivial_. Arenanet saw how players were handling dungeons and decided building up Fractals of the Mists and Raids as end game content and abandoning dungeons would be the better strategy. They were right. Because "Stack in Corner, cleave enemies down, repeat ad nauseum" is not the sort of thing you want to be broadcasting to the world as your end game content.