Sorin Noroku.5342 Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 > @"Blaeys.3102" said: > Not sure what is blind about the poll. The options seem well defined. > > Trying to argue it away with strawman fallacies (and yes, that term applies here) wont make the numbers go away. Problem is, a lot of players avoid the forum heavily... also, how many of those that voted actually raid? Raids are super super easy. Plus, the developers have said, these are not meant to have an easy mode, it’s meant to be harder content. > Of course, continuing the debate and discussion is healthy, but I think it is important that Anet see these numbers and what they represent. If additional resources ever do become available for further raid development, the (albeit slight) majority of those willing to respond on this subforum see value in moving to a more tiered difficulty model that includes a more casual experience alongside one for harder core players. Once more, the devs have said they designed these to be more difficult. Even still they are incredibly easy. I cannot tell you how many streams I’ve seen of people who are BUTCHERING their class and build, yet pass with ease. The dps checks are super light (baring dhuum/largos) and the mechanics are fairly simple. We know this by the vast amount of people learning raids in the discord training servers, and getting kills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yann.1946 Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 > @"Blaeys.3102" said: > Not sure what is blind about the poll. The options seem well defined. > > Trying to argue it away with strawman fallacies (and yes, that term applies here) wont make the numbers go away. > > Of course, continuing the debate and discussion is healthy, but I think it is important that Anet see these numbers and what they represent. If additional resources ever do become available for further raid development, the (albeit slight) majority of those willing to respond on this subforum see value in moving to a more tiered difficulty model that includes a more casual experience alongside one for harder core players. The only problem I have with the numbers is 1) it has no statistical relevance because the people voting for it are skewed. 2) you're claiming everyone who voted their are problems but they need better solutions as people who want to see changes to the mode itself. I for example would just like better guild finder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 > @"Blaeys.3102" said: > Not sure what is blind about the poll. The options seem well defined. It's a poll on a game forum asking "do you want this to be easier?" That by itself is extremely biased. There is nothing well defined about the poll options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 > @"Sorin Noroku.5342" said: > > @"Blaeys.3102" said: > > Not sure what is blind about the poll. The options seem well defined. > > > > Trying to argue it away with strawman fallacies (and yes, that term applies here) wont make the numbers go away. > Problem is, a lot of players avoid the forum heavily... also, how many of those that voted actually raid? Forums in general have an overrepresentation of hardcore players, and in addition the poll was in dungeon forum, where that tendency is even more skewed. > Once more, the devs have said they designed these to be more difficult. Even still they are incredibly easy. I cannot tell you how many streams I’ve seen of people who are BUTCHERING their class and build, yet pass with ease. The dps checks are super light (baring dhuum/largos) and the mechanics are fairly simple. We know this by the vast amount of people learning raids in the discord training servers, and getting kills. And yet that "vast amount of people" is still only a very small part of the whole population. And as for dev designs, well, the raids are one of the examples showing that those can change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blaeys.3102 Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > @"Blaeys.3102" said: > > Not sure what is blind about the poll. The options seem well defined. > > It's a poll on a game forum asking "do you want this to be easier?" That by itself is extremely biased. There is nothing well defined about the poll options. Except, that is not the question that was asked - and, by paraphrasing, you are using a slightly misleading debate tactic similar to the one you used in the previous response. A strawman argument is where you change the parameters or try to use a seemingly related example (that is, in fact, total different) to make it easier to argue against something - rather than arguing against a point directly. The OP went to great length to define what was meant by the question - and the question itself was worded in a way that was far less biased than the example you give above - which, again, is not how the question was asked at all. The question is straightforward. The numbers are there. I realize they are not what many on these forums wanted to see, but they are miraculously still there despite anyone (probably including devs) wishing them away. Continue to argue pros and cons of the topic, but the idea that these numbers are in some way meaningless or communicate something other than a desire for an easier mode alongside what we have now - after almost a year on a subforum dedicated exclusively to raiding, dungeons and fractals - is not really debatable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yann.1946 Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 > @"Blaeys.3102" said: > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > @"Blaeys.3102" said: > > > Not sure what is blind about the poll. The options seem well defined. > > > > It's a poll on a game forum asking "do you want this to be easier?" That by itself is extremely biased. There is nothing well defined about the poll options. > > Except, that is not the question that was asked - and, by paraphrasing, you are using a slightly misleading debate tactic similar to the one you used in the previous response. A strawman argument is where you change the parameters or try to use a seemingly related example (that is, in fact, total different) to make it easier to argue against something - rather than arguing against a point directly. > > The OP went to great length to define what was meant by the question - and the question itself was worded in a way that was far less biased than the example you give above - which, again, is not how the question was asked at all. > > The question is straightforward. The numbers are there. I realize they are not what many on these forums wanted to see, but they are miraculously still there despite anyone (probably including devs) wishing them away. > > Continue to argue pros and cons of the topic, but the idea that these numbers are in some way meaningless or communicate something other than a desire for an easier mode alongside what we have now - after almost a year on a subforum dedicated exclusively to raiding, dungeons and fractals - is not really debatable. > While it is undeniable what the results of this poll are it's very debatable what they mean for the desires of the player base. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 > @"Blaeys.3102" said: > The OP went to great length to define what was meant by the question - and the question itself was worded in a way that was far less biased than the example you give above - which, again, is not how the question was asked at all. I'm willing to bet that the vast majority didn't even read what the OP posted and instead answered based on the simple question: "should we make things easier?" It's not even hard to know this based simply on the responses we got afterwards. Then they went to their guild mates to come vote on this thread. It's a real no brainer when there is a question about making things easier that players will come and vote about because they love the shinnies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > @"Blaeys.3102" said: > > The OP went to great length to define what was meant by the question - and the question itself was worded in a way that was far less biased than the example you give above - which, again, is not how the question was asked at all. > > I'm willing to bet that the vast majority didn't even read what the OP posted and instead answered based on the simple question: "should we make things easier?" It's not even hard to know this based simply on the responses we got afterwards. Then they went to their guild mates to come vote on this thread. It's a real no brainer when there is a question about making things easier that players will come and vote about because they love the shinnies. When you break it down, 26% are happy with Raids currently. The other 74% are wanting change to Raids of various degrees, easy mode, more hard mode, a different solution, which you yourself voted on. I think the majority of us here want the same thing, change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 > @"Tyson.5160" said: > When you break it down, 26% are happy with Raids currently. The other 74% are wanting change to Raids of various degrees, easy mode, more hard mode, a different solution, which you yourself voted on. I think the majority of us here want the same thing, change. Change can mean a multitude of things and this is the part we all disagree on ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yann.1946 Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > When you break it down, 26% are happy with Raids currently. The other 74% are wanting change to Raids of various degrees, easy mode, more hard mode, a different solution, which you yourself voted on. I think the majority of us here want the same thing, change. > > Change can mean a multitude of things and this is the part we all disagree on ;) On top of that is it the forum going portion more likely wanting change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tails.9372 Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > It should come as no surprise that people would vote for making things easier for them. [Except](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/57920/should-breakbars-be-removed/p1 "Except"), 84% for "Keep them as they are" as opposed to 4% for "Remove breakbars from game." and going by the replies it's apparent that not everyone who voted for "remove" did so because they wanted the game to be easier (and this was a poll done on general which arguably has a higher amount of "casual" players). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 > @"Tails.9372" said: > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > It should come as no surprise that people would vote for making things easier for them. > [Except](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/57920/should-breakbars-be-removed/p1 "Except"), 84% for "Keep them as they are" as opposed to 4% for "Remove breakbars from game." and going by the replies it's apparent that not everyone who voted for "remove" did so because they wanted the game to be easier (and this was a poll done on general which arguably has a higher amount of "casual" players). Removing breakbars wouldn't give them more access to shinnies that they can't get now. With or without breakbars there will be some good souls that can break them and allow even the lazy ones to get the same loot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blaeys.3102 Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > @"Blaeys.3102" said: > > The OP went to great length to define what was meant by the question - and the question itself was worded in a way that was far less biased than the example you give above - which, again, is not how the question was asked at all. > > I'm willing to bet that the vast majority didn't even read what the OP posted and instead answered based on the simple question: "should we make things easier?" It's not even hard to know this based simply on the responses we got afterwards. Then they went to their guild mates to come vote on this thread. It's a real no brainer when there is a question about making things easier that players will come and vote about because they love the shinnies. A few posts ago, you argued that the question was "blind" or misleading in some way - but when I point out that the question was, in fact detailed and pretty thorough, your response was to change to "no one reads it anyway." And, even then, you still insist on paraphrasing the question to make it seem simpler or more misleading. The numbers are there. I know they aren't what many want to see, but there they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 I mentioned this a while ago, and in another thread, but there could be a hard cap on how many raid wings there could be. Aerodrome can only fit so many entrances, until it gets into something close to Willy Wonkas Chocolate Factory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grogba.6204 Posted October 25, 2018 Share Posted October 25, 2018 > @"Tyson.5160" said: > I mentioned this a while ago, and in another thread, but there could be a hard cap on how many raid wings there could be. Aerodrome can only fit so many entrances, until it gets into something close to Willy Wonkas Chocolate Factory. _We both know that - with the current release cadence - this outcome is still years away._ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted October 25, 2018 Share Posted October 25, 2018 > @"Grogba.6204" said: > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > I mentioned this a while ago, and in another thread, but there could be a hard cap on how many raid wings there could be. Aerodrome can only fit so many entrances, until it gets into something close to Willy Wonkas Chocolate Factory. > > _We both know that - with the current release cadence - this outcome is still years away._ Well most likely raid wing 8 would be out in 2020 with wing 10 out in 2022, just in time for the 10 year anniversary. If they capped it at that, in theory they could add challenge modes or maybe even a random raid boss fight mode, that randomly selects the boss fights. That being said Fractals would most likely be capped and finished too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted October 25, 2018 Share Posted October 25, 2018 > @"Tyson.5160" said: > That being said Fractals would most likely be capped and finished too. No. Once we reach 100 fractals they will change the system completely. Just like Raids, Fractals have no cap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted October 25, 2018 Share Posted October 25, 2018 > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > That being said Fractals would most likely be capped and finished too. > > No. Once we reach 100 fractals they will change the system completely. Just like Raids, Fractals have no cap. I think there are only 4 fractals left until there are 25 different fractals per tier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miellyn.6847 Posted October 25, 2018 Share Posted October 25, 2018 > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > That being said Fractals would most likely be capped and finished too. > > > > No. Once we reach 100 fractals they will change the system completely. Just like Raids, Fractals have no cap. > > I think there are only 4 fractals left until there are 25 different fractals per tier. > No, we have 18 fractals. 7 more until they have to revamp the system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted October 25, 2018 Share Posted October 25, 2018 > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > That being said Fractals would most likely be capped and finished too. > > > > > > No. Once we reach 100 fractals they will change the system completely. Just like Raids, Fractals have no cap. > > > > I think there are only 4 fractals left until there are 25 different fractals per tier. > > > > No, we have 18 fractals. 7 more until they have to revamp the system. Yeah sorry went a double checked it’s 19 we have, 6 more to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steki.1478 Posted October 25, 2018 Share Posted October 25, 2018 > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > That being said Fractals would most likely be capped and finished too. > > > > > > > > No. Once we reach 100 fractals they will change the system completely. Just like Raids, Fractals have no cap. > > > > > > I think there are only 4 fractals left until there are 25 different fractals per tier. > > > > > > > No, we have 18 fractals. 7 more until they have to revamp the system. > > Yeah sorry went a double checked it’s 19 we have, 6 more to go. So basically in 6 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted October 26, 2018 Share Posted October 26, 2018 > @"steki.1478" said: > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > That being said Fractals would most likely be capped and finished too. > > > > > > > > > > No. Once we reach 100 fractals they will change the system completely. Just like Raids, Fractals have no cap. > > > > > > > > I think there are only 4 fractals left until there are 25 different fractals per tier. > > > > > > > > > > No, we have 18 fractals. 7 more until they have to revamp the system. > > > > Yeah sorry went a double checked it’s 19 we have, 6 more to go. > > So basically in 6 years. I think fractals are released every other LW episode. Next episode would have Fractal 20. So we are probably looking the next 3 years or so Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vinceman.4572 Posted October 27, 2018 Share Posted October 27, 2018 I doubt they'll revamp the fractal system when having 25 different ones. They'll just put some easier ones to the lower tiers, for example T1-3 (or T1-2) and harder ones to T2-4 (T3-4). It would be an easy solution. About raids, I don't know. I would expect another expansion but afterwards. I cannot imagine GW2 to be supported more than 10 years. Active servers and some minor fixes/changes like in GW1 but more seems unlikely to me. So, the space for raid doors in the aerodrome should be enough with the actual raid release cadence. ^^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted October 27, 2018 Share Posted October 27, 2018 > @"Vinceman.4572" said: > I doubt they'll revamp the fractal system when having 25 different ones. They'll just put some easier ones to the lower tiers, for example T1-3 (or T1-2) and harder ones to T2-4 (T3-4). It would be an easy solution. > About raids, I don't know. I would expect another expansion but afterwards. I cannot imagine GW2 to be supported more than 10 years. Active servers and some minor fixes/changes like in GW1 but more seems unlikely to me. So, the space for raid doors in the aerodrome should be enough with the actual raid release cadence. ^^ I recall Wp had a suggestion regarding the different tiers could have different paths in the same Fractal with different bosses that could switch in the tiers. That would change up much of the Fractal system too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted October 27, 2018 Share Posted October 27, 2018 > @"Vinceman.4572" said: > I doubt they'll revamp the fractal system when having 25 different ones. They'll just put some easier ones to the lower tiers, for example T1-3 (or T1-2) and harder ones to T2-4 (T3-4). It would be an easy solution. That would mean either none of those could be in fractal dailies, or you would lose the current system of the same daily for each tier, with higher tier also qualifying for all lower ones. Let's say you had aquatic in t1-3 and Observatory in t2-4 (to use already existing fractals as examples). You couldn't have t1-t4 daily set for neither, because it would be incomplete (Aquatic missing t4 daily, and Observatory missing t1 one). You could potentially have different t1 and t4 sets, but then you'd lose the current ability to have all dailies covered by doing just 3 x t4. So, not really an easy solution. It would be, in fact, much easier to extend each tier by a few levels (so, make them go, for example, 1-30, 31-60, 61-90, 91-120) while leaving current agony stretch from 1 to the top (so, still 150 ar at new top fractal level, and unchanged agony levels at tier tresholds). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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