mortrialus.3062 Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We aren't talking about torphies though, we're talking about something you grind towards, Legendary armor. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So go ahead and grind it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, I couldn't enjoy that. I'm trying to get them to add a method I could enjoy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I can't enjoy a Ferrari's price tag. Care to give me a hand persuading them to sell me a new one, warranty included, for about 10k? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure.. what scale would like.. I can get you a 1:24 pretty cheap. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Got two of these. But unless you convince Ohoni to be happy with a screenshot of the UI icon of the Envoy instead of the actual set, your proposal doesn't really apply. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well see.. technically Ohoni just wants the skin.. not the Legendary Armor itself. So that would be like buying a Ferrari Kit.. which is around 10K As irony would have it, so, you could have your _Ferrari_ for one tenth the cost of a real one , if you were willing to put it on some other car frame.. which Ohoni is willing to do. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So.. what is your problem with letting them have that? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Technically, the skin is the only exclusive part you're getting. Everything else is obtainable otherwise. Unlike the car, which has a lot of sophisticated features you'd miss. So the metaphor breaks here. The problem, obviously, is exactly the exclusivity, and the effort currently required to obtain it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nope..there is only ONE PvE path to Legendary Armor, as such it is very exclusive to it's game mode. If there were other PvE ways to get Legendary Armor you would have a great point.. but since there isn't.. you don't. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nah, I really do. People "convert" from one mode to another, sometimes exactly because of the armor. And it's still playing the same game after all, so sorry, I'm not buying your arbitrary separation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No.. you don't. You're just disagreeing at this point because you don't like the idea that you're wrong. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nobody likes being wrong, but I don't believe I am. See above my point for exclusivity. We both know skins are the true endgame in this game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You used the idea of getting a Farrari for a discounted price as a benchmark for you stand, but the real the world is a very accessible place, where people can in fact get a Ferrari or at the least the facsimile of one for vastly discounted price. If anything, the fact that in the real world people can at least have the look of a Farrari for a reasonable investment just shows how pitiful, entailed and pathetic the stand is by raiders that will continue to hock their purulent point of all or nothing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not even the world works like that.. and the fact that GW2 expects people to pay into their game to be treated like that.. BUHAHAHAHAHAHAHA > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That will kill them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're missing the point. In the real world, there's more to owning a Ferarri than just the looks. *Much* more. I actually pity those who'd choose to make another car look like one. In this game, all you get *beside* the looks is a minor QoL. And I can't stress enough on "minor". Like I said, the metaphor breaks at some point. You're not asking to get an accessible facsimile of an exclusive item. You're asking for a de facto exclusive item to stop being exclusive. Sorry, can't agree. Sure, I'm biased. But then again, can you blame me? It is *my* months of effort that got rewarded by that item. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > See. .. No.. I **can** blame you for being like this.. because.. I don't understand your mindset. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Case in point, I spent hundreds of tries to do the Mad King till I finally beat it.. once I beat it.. doing to again I think around two dozen more times was pretty easy in compairosn.. and raids are not intrinsically different then doing that.. once the mechanic and method is learned, it becomes easy to the point of a grind, where you know exactly why and where you failed if you fail at all. I just had no one helping me nor could anyone carry me, I also didn't need to worry about anyone else screwing it up for me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now, If this year, they put in an easy path for Mad King so others could learn it and complete it, like they did with Winters Day, I would welcome it.. I would not turn into an insufferable baby crying about my efforts and the like, I would share in the joy that other players are now having, I would enjoy running with them, and think it was better overall for the game that it was more inclusive. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So.. No.. I don't respect your stand, but.. it's not you I blame.. I blame Anet for being foolish enough to think that catering to that kind of mindset will profit their game.. it won't. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It will slowly kill this game, and your rewards will be vaporware. > > > > > > Dark Souls was challenging when I first played it > > > > > > But now I could probably do a zero death run with a little bit of practice on the sequence break at the mandatory death. It's still fun to revisit it, to play new roles and builds and to continue getting better even though I'm at least at the minimum threshold for beating it. Same with raids. Plus with raids you're playing with friends, making it communal as well. > > > > > > > > > > Would you cry like an inconsolable child if they put an option for "Easy" into Dark Souls ? > > > > > > > > I'd of beaten it in 15 minutes and then never thought about it again as opposed to it being my favorite game of all time and having completely changed how I view video games. My life would absolutely be lessened if Demon's Souls and Dark Souls had an easy mode, which is exactly what would happen for most players and raids. > > > > > > So if they had put in an easy mode.. you would not have challenged yourself to play the Hard or Normal Version.. fascinating. > > > > Same reason why I never bothered fighting CM Mordremoth. There's no risk real of failure. There's always a safety net of the easy mode to fall back on. The danger of missing out, that these enemies are too strong for me makes them interesting. Matthias, and Xera, and Gorseval, Deimos and Dhuum are all more interesting because they're actually as threatening in game as they allegedly are story wise. Part of why the Elder Dragons are so uninteresting as antagonists is because they're supposed to be these huge world ending threats but in game they'll always be so weak that anyone can beat them without any difficulty. > > Let me see if I have this right, because you can't bring yourself to do hard mode, you feel that an Easy Mode should not exist. > > That has got to be.. the worst rational I have ever read on this topic.. and it's not even the first time I have read it, but the rational still remains the worst I have heard. It's not that I can't bring myself to do a hard mode, so much that removing the potentiality for failure makes it uninteresting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 > @"Sarrs.4831" said: > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > Perhaps why there should be an open world variance of armor and should of been from the start. Options. > > Nothing to do with the merits of adding an easy mode to raid. Exactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 > @"maddoctor.2738" said: >I think you don't understand why people dislike raiding. I don't care about what you say, but someone who is an actual open world player, and not one interested in the instanced parts of the game is much more "reliable" source of how those players think like. I like both. I prefer open world, most of the time, but I do instanced content when given reason to do so, and enjoy it plenty well when it meets my standards of fun, challenge, and accessibility. I am not dealing in hypothetical here. There were plenty of people who regularly did dungeons back when they were worth doing. Again, the goal is not to have *everyone* regularly playing easy mode raids, that is not necessary. The goal is for most players to be *capable* of doing easy mode raids, *if* they choose to, and ti make it suitable for many *additional* players to play easy mode raids that do not currently. I think it's ridiculous to try and argue that there is not an audience out there who wants something in between the current raids and nothing. >And your example is silly, it's the opposite: Nope, my example accurately illustrated the point *I* was making. I have no idea what the point of yours are. My point was, there are people who like a concept in principle, but who dislike certain "dealbreaker" elements of them. If you remove those dealbreaker elements, then they like the item just fine. To borrow your examples: A: Do you like Chocolate? B: Yes, but when it's too rich it can be overwhelming A: What about milk chocolate? B: Yeah, milk chocolate's great. Or A: Do you like dogs? B: Yes, but I'm allergic A: What about hypoallergenic dogs? B: Those are awesome. I'm not saying that this allies to *everyone,* nor does it have to. It just applies to *enough* people to justify the effort in accommodating them. > @"STIHL.2489" said: > So if they had put in an easy mode.. you would not have challenged yourself to play the Hard or Normal Version.. fascinating. Yeah, it's kind fo funny, "Hard" and "easy" modes have been a part of games since at least the NES era, and yet I constantly hear from raiders that if given *any* option short of hard mode, they would be *forced* to only play the easiest possible mode. Like none of them do Tribulation mode in SAB, they all rush to Infantile mode just because it's there. It's sad, really, no self-control. > @"Feanor.2358" said: >The point was these arguments go both ways equally. And as such do not really contribute to the discussion. Aside from that, I agree - if you don't enjoy something, you don't play it. Seems a no-brainer to me. But when things you *do* want are locked *behind* that content, it immediately *stops* being a no-brainer. That is a seriosu dilemma, which of two bad options is worse? That's why I want an easy mode, so that it IS the no-brainer you propose. Do you like hard mode? Play hard mode, no-brainer. Do you not like hard mode? Don't play hard mode, no-brainer. Everyone plays the mode they enjoy, everyone wins. It's a no-brainer. >Here I disagree strongly. IMO, no MMO can survive without hardcore content. GW2 did just fine for three years without it, and by all accounts seems to have not improved considerably since in terms of audience size. >Players are not equal. Hardcore players in general have spent much longer in this game. Probably, but so what? ANet doesn't get paid by the hour. A player who only logs in once a week into LA but buys up every mount and skin available is worth ten times more to them than a player who spends eight hours a day in-game but rarely buys anything. I'm not saying that they should only cater to the spenders, but I am pointing out that "hardcore" players add no more value to the game than "casuals." All that matters is how much the players care and invest in the game, and a "casual" player can still be extremely invested, just not in "hardcore" experiences. >Actually they aren't. "Monthly active users" is probably the most important metric for a MMO. Note the use of the word "active". But raiders seclude themselves inside raids. They benefit only themselves and each other, and make up only a tiny portion of the game. A player who only runs world bosses would be WAY more valuable to ANet, since they would be positively impacting the gameplay of dozens of other players at a time. Again, your argument does not apply, raiders are *less* value to ANet, across *any* possible metric, than the average casual. >It's not direct. Raids keep players in the game. And players not in the game do not make in-game purchases. But they aren't remotely *necessary* to keeping players in the game, since *most* of the players never raid, and those that do raid are less vital to the game's success. > @"Astralporing.1957" said: >Maybe for small, niche ones. The life (and death) of major MMOs however is strongly tied not to hardcore but to semi-casual players. No major MMO can survive only (or mostly) on hardcore players. There's simply not enough of them for the populations that are expected of the AAA titles nowadays. >There's a reason why games started going more and more casual, and why what you consider "hardcore" nowadays would be nowhere close to that term in pre-WoW era. Yup, here's a fun [video on the decline of a game]( ) that thought it could survive entirely on hardcore raid and PvPer crowds. (spoiler: they couldn't, nobody can). > @"Feanor.2358" said: > And I never claimed otherwise. GW2 however offers lots and lots for the casual and semi-casual crowd. Then why disrespect them by not providing them a path to Envoy armor? > @"nia.4725" said: > So, honestly, I don't think losing all raiders would be meaningless. It's not about "raiders are just a 10%" of the playerbase. It's about how much profit gives a raider to Anet compared to a casual OW player. Maybe we're just a 10%, yeah, but maybe a raider spends much more than one of those players from the 90%. I have seen zero evidence to support this claim and it doesn't make much sense. > @"Sarrs.4831" said: > Nevermind that these are just the reasons that *you* don't like raiding, not the reasons that *people* don't like raiding. 90% of people who don't currently raid won't raid no matter what you do. Source? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarrs.4831 Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > Source? Common sense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 > @"Sarrs.4831" said: > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > Source? > > Common sense? Common sense would indicate the opposite of your assumption. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > >I think you don't understand why people dislike raiding. I don't care about what you say, but someone who is an actual open world player, and not one interested in the instanced parts of the game is much more "reliable" source of how those players think like. > > I like both. I prefer open world, most of the time, but I do instanced content when given reason to do so, and enjoy it plenty well when it meets my standards of fun, challenge, and accessibility. I am not dealing in hypothetical here. There were plenty of people who regularly did dungeons back when they were worth doing. Again, the goal is not to have *everyone* regularly playing easy mode raids, that is not necessary. The goal is for most players to be *capable* of doing easy mode raids, *if* they choose to, and ti make it suitable for many *additional* players to play easy mode raids that do not currently. I think it's ridiculous to try and argue that there is not an audience out there who wants something in between the current raids and nothing. > > >And your example is silly, it's the opposite: > > Nope, my example accurately illustrated the point *I* was making. I have no idea what the point of yours are. > > My point was, there are people who like a concept in principle, but who dislike certain "dealbreaker" elements of them. If you remove those dealbreaker elements, then they like the item just fine. To borrow your examples: > > A: Do you like Chocolate? > B: Yes, but when it's too rich it can be overwhelming > A: What about milk chocolate? > B: Yeah, milk chocolate's great. > > Or > > A: Do you like dogs? > B: Yes, but I'm allergic > A: What about hypoallergenic dogs? > B: Those are awesome. > > I'm not saying that this allies to *everyone,* nor does it have to. It just applies to *enough* people to justify the effort in accommodating them. > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > So if they had put in an easy mode.. you would not have challenged yourself to play the Hard or Normal Version.. fascinating. > > Yeah, it's kind fo funny, "Hard" and "easy" modes have been a part of games since at least the NES era, and yet I constantly hear from raiders that if given *any* option short of hard mode, they would be *forced* to only play the easiest possible mode. Like none of them do Tribulation mode in SAB, they all rush to Infantile mode just because it's there. It's sad, really, no self-control. > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > >The point was these arguments go both ways equally. And as such do not really contribute to the discussion. Aside from that, I agree - if you don't enjoy something, you don't play it. Seems a no-brainer to me. > > But when things you *do* want are locked *behind* that content, it immediately *stops* being a no-brainer. That is a seriosu dilemma, which of two bad options is worse? > > That's why I want an easy mode, so that it IS the no-brainer you propose. Do you like hard mode? Play hard mode, no-brainer. Do you not like hard mode? Don't play hard mode, no-brainer. Everyone plays the mode they enjoy, everyone wins. It's a no-brainer. > > >Here I disagree strongly. IMO, no MMO can survive without hardcore content. > > GW2 did just fine for three years without it, and by all accounts seems to have not improved considerably since in terms of audience size. > > >Players are not equal. Hardcore players in general have spent much longer in this game. > > Probably, but so what? ANet doesn't get paid by the hour. A player who only logs in once a week into LA but buys up every mount and skin available is worth ten times more to them than a player who spends eight hours a day in-game but rarely buys anything. I'm not saying that they should only cater to the spenders, but I am pointing out that "hardcore" players add no more value to the game than "casuals." All that matters is how much the players care and invest in the game, and a "casual" player can still be extremely invested, just not in "hardcore" experiences. > > >Actually they aren't. "Monthly active users" is probably the most important metric for a MMO. Note the use of the word "active". > > But raiders seclude themselves inside raids. They benefit only themselves and each other, and make up only a tiny portion of the game. A player who only runs world bosses would be WAY more valuable to ANet, since they would be positively impacting the gameplay of dozens of other players at a time. Again, your argument does not apply, raiders are *less* value to ANet, across *any* possible metric, than the average casual. > > >It's not direct. Raids keep players in the game. And players not in the game do not make in-game purchases. > > But they aren't remotely *necessary* to keeping players in the game, since *most* of the players never raid, and those that do raid are less vital to the game's success. > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > >Maybe for small, niche ones. The life (and death) of major MMOs however is strongly tied not to hardcore but to semi-casual players. > No major MMO can survive only (or mostly) on hardcore players. There's simply not enough of them for the populations that are expected of the AAA titles nowadays. > > >There's a reason why games started going more and more casual, and why what you consider "hardcore" nowadays would be nowhere close to that term in pre-WoW era. > > Yup, here's a fun [video on the decline of a game]( ) that thought it could survive entirely on hardcore raid and PvPer crowds. (spoiler: they couldn't, nobody can). > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > And I never claimed otherwise. GW2 however offers lots and lots for the casual and semi-casual crowd. > > Then why disrespect them by not providing them a path to Envoy armor? > > > @"nia.4725" said: > > So, honestly, I don't think losing all raiders would be meaningless. It's not about "raiders are just a 10%" of the playerbase. It's about how much profit gives a raider to Anet compared to a casual OW player. Maybe we're just a 10%, yeah, but maybe a raider spends much more than one of those players from the 90%. > > I have seen zero evidence to support this claim and it doesn't make much sense. > > > @"Sarrs.4831" said: > > Nevermind that these are just the reasons that *you* don't like raiding, not the reasons that *people* don't like raiding. 90% of people who don't currently raid won't raid no matter what you do. > > Source? > > I mean, Feanor is fine with locking or rewarding Legendary items behind raids, however the very second I suggested a Legendary trinket in PvP, a game mode he doesn't like, nor wants to play, he takes issue with it. Empathy, you now understand the plight. Now imagine all the Envoy Armor was locked behind Ranked PvP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We aren't talking about torphies though, we're talking about something you grind towards, Legendary armor. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So go ahead and grind it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, I couldn't enjoy that. I'm trying to get them to add a method I could enjoy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I can't enjoy a Ferrari's price tag. Care to give me a hand persuading them to sell me a new one, warranty included, for about 10k? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure.. what scale would like.. I can get you a 1:24 pretty cheap. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Got two of these. But unless you convince Ohoni to be happy with a screenshot of the UI icon of the Envoy instead of the actual set, your proposal doesn't really apply. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well see.. technically Ohoni just wants the skin.. not the Legendary Armor itself. So that would be like buying a Ferrari Kit.. which is around 10K As irony would have it, so, you could have your _Ferrari_ for one tenth the cost of a real one , if you were willing to put it on some other car frame.. which Ohoni is willing to do. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So.. what is your problem with letting them have that? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Technically, the skin is the only exclusive part you're getting. Everything else is obtainable otherwise. Unlike the car, which has a lot of sophisticated features you'd miss. So the metaphor breaks here. The problem, obviously, is exactly the exclusivity, and the effort currently required to obtain it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nope..there is only ONE PvE path to Legendary Armor, as such it is very exclusive to it's game mode. If there were other PvE ways to get Legendary Armor you would have a great point.. but since there isn't.. you don't. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nah, I really do. People "convert" from one mode to another, sometimes exactly because of the armor. And it's still playing the same game after all, so sorry, I'm not buying your arbitrary separation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No.. you don't. You're just disagreeing at this point because you don't like the idea that you're wrong. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nobody likes being wrong, but I don't believe I am. See above my point for exclusivity. We both know skins are the true endgame in this game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You used the idea of getting a Farrari for a discounted price as a benchmark for you stand, but the real the world is a very accessible place, where people can in fact get a Ferrari or at the least the facsimile of one for vastly discounted price. If anything, the fact that in the real world people can at least have the look of a Farrari for a reasonable investment just shows how pitiful, entailed and pathetic the stand is by raiders that will continue to hock their purulent point of all or nothing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not even the world works like that.. and the fact that GW2 expects people to pay into their game to be treated like that.. BUHAHAHAHAHAHAHA > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That will kill them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're missing the point. In the real world, there's more to owning a Ferarri than just the looks. *Much* more. I actually pity those who'd choose to make another car look like one. In this game, all you get *beside* the looks is a minor QoL. And I can't stress enough on "minor". Like I said, the metaphor breaks at some point. You're not asking to get an accessible facsimile of an exclusive item. You're asking for a de facto exclusive item to stop being exclusive. Sorry, can't agree. Sure, I'm biased. But then again, can you blame me? It is *my* months of effort that got rewarded by that item. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > See. .. No.. I **can** blame you for being like this.. because.. I don't understand your mindset. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Case in point, I spent hundreds of tries to do the Mad King till I finally beat it.. once I beat it.. doing to again I think around two dozen more times was pretty easy in compairosn.. and raids are not intrinsically different then doing that.. once the mechanic and method is learned, it becomes easy to the point of a grind, where you know exactly why and where you failed if you fail at all. I just had no one helping me nor could anyone carry me, I also didn't need to worry about anyone else screwing it up for me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now, If this year, they put in an easy path for Mad King so others could learn it and complete it, like they did with Winters Day, I would welcome it.. I would not turn into an insufferable baby crying about my efforts and the like, I would share in the joy that other players are now having, I would enjoy running with them, and think it was better overall for the game that it was more inclusive. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So.. No.. I don't respect your stand, but.. it's not you I blame.. I blame Anet for being foolish enough to think that catering to that kind of mindset will profit their game.. it won't. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It will slowly kill this game, and your rewards will be vaporware. > > > > > > > Dark Souls was challenging when I first played it > > > > > > > But now I could probably do a zero death run with a little bit of practice on the sequence break at the mandatory death. It's still fun to revisit it, to play new roles and builds and to continue getting better even though I'm at least at the minimum threshold for beating it. Same with raids. Plus with raids you're playing with friends, making it communal as well. > > > > > > > > > > > > Would you cry like an inconsolable child if they put an option for "Easy" into Dark Souls ? > > > > > > > > > > I'd of beaten it in 15 minutes and then never thought about it again as opposed to it being my favorite game of all time and having completely changed how I view video games. My life would absolutely be lessened if Demon's Souls and Dark Souls had an easy mode, which is exactly what would happen for most players and raids. > > > > > > > > So if they had put in an easy mode.. you would not have challenged yourself to play the Hard or Normal Version.. fascinating. > > > > > > Same reason why I never bothered fighting CM Mordremoth. There's no risk real of failure. There's always a safety net of the easy mode to fall back on. The danger of missing out, that these enemies are too strong for me makes them interesting. Matthias, and Xera, and Gorseval, Deimos and Dhuum are all more interesting because they're actually as threatening in game as they allegedly are story wise. Part of why the Elder Dragons are so uninteresting as antagonists is because they're supposed to be these huge world ending threats but in game they'll always be so weak that anyone can beat them without any difficulty. > > > > Let me see if I have this right, because you can't bring yourself to do hard mode, you feel that an Easy Mode should not exist. > > > > That has got to be.. the worst rational I have ever read on this topic.. and it's not even the first time I have read it, but the rational still remains the worst I have heard. > > It's not that I can't bring myself to do a hard mode, so much that removing the potentiality for failure makes it uninteresting. And yet you play GW2. as opposed to a hardcore MMO... something is not adding up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yann.1946 Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We aren't talking about torphies though, we're talking about something you grind towards, Legendary armor. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So go ahead and grind it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, I couldn't enjoy that. I'm trying to get them to add a method I could enjoy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I can't enjoy a Ferrari's price tag. Care to give me a hand persuading them to sell me a new one, warranty included, for about 10k? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure.. what scale would like.. I can get you a 1:24 pretty cheap. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Got two of these. But unless you convince Ohoni to be happy with a screenshot of the UI icon of the Envoy instead of the actual set, your proposal doesn't really apply. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well see.. technically Ohoni just wants the skin.. not the Legendary Armor itself. So that would be like buying a Ferrari Kit.. which is around 10K As irony would have it, so, you could have your _Ferrari_ for one tenth the cost of a real one , if you were willing to put it on some other car frame.. which Ohoni is willing to do. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So.. what is your problem with letting them have that? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Technically, the skin is the only exclusive part you're getting. Everything else is obtainable otherwise. Unlike the car, which has a lot of sophisticated features you'd miss. So the metaphor breaks here. The problem, obviously, is exactly the exclusivity, and the effort currently required to obtain it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nope..there is only ONE PvE path to Legendary Armor, as such it is very exclusive to it's game mode. If there were other PvE ways to get Legendary Armor you would have a great point.. but since there isn't.. you don't. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nah, I really do. People "convert" from one mode to another, sometimes exactly because of the armor. And it's still playing the same game after all, so sorry, I'm not buying your arbitrary separation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No.. you don't. You're just disagreeing at this point because you don't like the idea that you're wrong. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nobody likes being wrong, but I don't believe I am. See above my point for exclusivity. We both know skins are the true endgame in this game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You used the idea of getting a Farrari for a discounted price as a benchmark for you stand, but the real the world is a very accessible place, where people can in fact get a Ferrari or at the least the facsimile of one for vastly discounted price. If anything, the fact that in the real world people can at least have the look of a Farrari for a reasonable investment just shows how pitiful, entailed and pathetic the stand is by raiders that will continue to hock their purulent point of all or nothing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not even the world works like that.. and the fact that GW2 expects people to pay into their game to be treated like that.. BUHAHAHAHAHAHAHA > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That will kill them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're missing the point. In the real world, there's more to owning a Ferarri than just the looks. *Much* more. I actually pity those who'd choose to make another car look like one. In this game, all you get *beside* the looks is a minor QoL. And I can't stress enough on "minor". Like I said, the metaphor breaks at some point. You're not asking to get an accessible facsimile of an exclusive item. You're asking for a de facto exclusive item to stop being exclusive. Sorry, can't agree. Sure, I'm biased. But then again, can you blame me? It is *my* months of effort that got rewarded by that item. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > See. .. No.. I **can** blame you for being like this.. because.. I don't understand your mindset. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Case in point, I spent hundreds of tries to do the Mad King till I finally beat it.. once I beat it.. doing to again I think around two dozen more times was pretty easy in compairosn.. and raids are not intrinsically different then doing that.. once the mechanic and method is learned, it becomes easy to the point of a grind, where you know exactly why and where you failed if you fail at all. I just had no one helping me nor could anyone carry me, I also didn't need to worry about anyone else screwing it up for me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now, If this year, they put in an easy path for Mad King so others could learn it and complete it, like they did with Winters Day, I would welcome it.. I would not turn into an insufferable baby crying about my efforts and the like, I would share in the joy that other players are now having, I would enjoy running with them, and think it was better overall for the game that it was more inclusive. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So.. No.. I don't respect your stand, but.. it's not you I blame.. I blame Anet for being foolish enough to think that catering to that kind of mindset will profit their game.. it won't. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It will slowly kill this game, and your rewards will be vaporware. > > > > > > > > Dark Souls was challenging when I first played it > > > > > > > > But now I could probably do a zero death run with a little bit of practice on the sequence break at the mandatory death. It's still fun to revisit it, to play new roles and builds and to continue getting better even though I'm at least at the minimum threshold for beating it. Same with raids. Plus with raids you're playing with friends, making it communal as well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Would you cry like an inconsolable child if they put an option for "Easy" into Dark Souls ? > > > > > > > > > > > > I'd of beaten it in 15 minutes and then never thought about it again as opposed to it being my favorite game of all time and having completely changed how I view video games. My life would absolutely be lessened if Demon's Souls and Dark Souls had an easy mode, which is exactly what would happen for most players and raids. > > > > > > > > > > So if they had put in an easy mode.. you would not have challenged yourself to play the Hard or Normal Version.. fascinating. > > > > > > > > Same reason why I never bothered fighting CM Mordremoth. There's no risk real of failure. There's always a safety net of the easy mode to fall back on. The danger of missing out, that these enemies are too strong for me makes them interesting. Matthias, and Xera, and Gorseval, Deimos and Dhuum are all more interesting because they're actually as threatening in game as they allegedly are story wise. Part of why the Elder Dragons are so uninteresting as antagonists is because they're supposed to be these huge world ending threats but in game they'll always be so weak that anyone can beat them without any difficulty. > > > > > > Let me see if I have this right, because you can't bring yourself to do hard mode, you feel that an Easy Mode should not exist. > > > > > > That has got to be.. the worst rational I have ever read on this topic.. and it's not even the first time I have read it, but the rational still remains the worst I have heard. > > > > It's not that I can't bring myself to do a hard mode, so much that removing the potentiality for failure makes it uninteresting. > > And yet you play GW2. as opposed to a hardcore MMO... something is not adding up. You do realise theirs more to a game then the dificulty right? 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Feanor.2358 Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > Sure they can. I mean think about it, if every raider left this game, that would be what around a10%± loss to the population.. I am sure this game could survive just fine with 90%± it's population still active. > > > > > > > > Players are not equal. Hardcore players in general have spent much longer in this game. Accommodating the casuals is one thing, surviving only on casuals is completely different. > > > > > > Laughable, as played hours are meaningless to a company. > > > > Actually they aren't. "Monthly active users" is probably the most important metric for a MMO. Note the use of the word "active". > > _Active_ often means "Logged in this month". not spent 100 h ours this week grinding gold into gems so they would not need to spend a cent of real money to get store only items. Most casuals are active players until they start to look for other games, and it's been proven that casuals have lower turnover and a slower burn out rate then hardcore players. Which for a company hoping to make any long term profit, those are the people they want to keep around. It's not about "needing to spend". Nobody technically needs to spend anything, as everything you get is cosmetics. Personally I buy gems on a regular basis because a) I want to support a game I'm passionate about and b) my hundreds of hours in it give me a lot of value for my money. As for the burn out rate, that's strictly personal. I would have burned out of the game before even PoF launched (and I have a friend who did just that), if not for raids. They are literally the single piece of content that kept me in the game. *Which is their purpose* - to keep in the game players like me. Other content - like the world bosses for instance - is there to keep *other* types of players in the game. Diversification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > I like both. Yes but you are NOT a representative of the community, you are a very special case. It's more than easy to figure out that the open world players are NOT touching instances in the game, not Fractals, not dungeons, not nothing like that. An easy mode for Raids won't make a difference. > Nope, my example accurately illustrated the point I was making. I have no idea what the point of yours are. I don't know how you missed my point. Here, I will make it more clear for you: A: Do you like INSTANCED CONTENT? B: NO. A: What about EASY RAIDS? B: Still INSTANCED CONTENT I hope you understand it now better. And if you want further explanation for my examples: A: Do you like buffalo wings? (Buffalo Wings in General, INSTANCED CONTENT) B: Nope (doesn't like instanced content) A: How about we spice them up instead? (a "spicy" version of instanced content, easy mode Raids) B: Still no (obviously still the answer is no) A: Do you like Chocolate? (Chocolate in General, INSTANCED CONTENT) B: No I'm allergic to it (Allergic to INSTANCED CONTENT) A: What about black chocolate? (Another version of Chocolate...) B: Still allergic... (obviously if you are allergic to instanced content, you will be allergic to easy mode Raids too) A: Do you like pets? (Pets in General, INSTANCED CONTENT) B: No I don't like pets (Doesn't like instanced content) A: What about dogs? (specific type of instanced content) B: Dogs are still pets...**** (someone disliking the whole, will dislike the variety too) I hope you understand it now. Your examples are still irrelevant. > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"Sarrs.4831" said: > > Nevermind that these are just the reasons that *you* don't like raiding, not the reasons that *people* don't like raiding. 90% of people who don't currently raid won't raid no matter what you do. > > Source? > Well, an actual open world player said so. https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/543876/#Comment_543876 Ohoni is not an open world player, is an exception to the rule. Now I can also redirect you earlier to the thread when statistics from gw2eff were also posted, clearly showing that a great deal of players doesn't actually run instances, at all, and out of those that do, Raids have a very high percentage of participation. And that's on a hardcore website, the actual community has even less percentages of participation in instanced content. Now I'd like to see your source that clearly shows your claims. There is evidence against you so it's your time to provide some to support your point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We aren't talking about torphies though, we're talking about something you grind towards, Legendary armor. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So go ahead and grind it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, I couldn't enjoy that. I'm trying to get them to add a method I could enjoy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I can't enjoy a Ferrari's price tag. Care to give me a hand persuading them to sell me a new one, warranty included, for about 10k? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure.. what scale would like.. I can get you a 1:24 pretty cheap. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Got two of these. But unless you convince Ohoni to be happy with a screenshot of the UI icon of the Envoy instead of the actual set, your proposal doesn't really apply. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well see.. technically Ohoni just wants the skin.. not the Legendary Armor itself. So that would be like buying a Ferrari Kit.. which is around 10K As irony would have it, so, you could have your _Ferrari_ for one tenth the cost of a real one , if you were willing to put it on some other car frame.. which Ohoni is willing to do. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So.. what is your problem with letting them have that? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Technically, the skin is the only exclusive part you're getting. Everything else is obtainable otherwise. Unlike the car, which has a lot of sophisticated features you'd miss. So the metaphor breaks here. The problem, obviously, is exactly the exclusivity, and the effort currently required to obtain it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nope..there is only ONE PvE path to Legendary Armor, as such it is very exclusive to it's game mode. If there were other PvE ways to get Legendary Armor you would have a great point.. but since there isn't.. you don't. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nah, I really do. People "convert" from one mode to another, sometimes exactly because of the armor. And it's still playing the same game after all, so sorry, I'm not buying your arbitrary separation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No.. you don't. You're just disagreeing at this point because you don't like the idea that you're wrong. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nobody likes being wrong, but I don't believe I am. See above my point for exclusivity. We both know skins are the true endgame in this game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You used the idea of getting a Farrari for a discounted price as a benchmark for you stand, but the real the world is a very accessible place, where people can in fact get a Ferrari or at the least the facsimile of one for vastly discounted price. If anything, the fact that in the real world people can at least have the look of a Farrari for a reasonable investment just shows how pitiful, entailed and pathetic the stand is by raiders that will continue to hock their purulent point of all or nothing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not even the world works like that.. and the fact that GW2 expects people to pay into their game to be treated like that.. BUHAHAHAHAHAHAHA > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That will kill them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're missing the point. In the real world, there's more to owning a Ferarri than just the looks. *Much* more. I actually pity those who'd choose to make another car look like one. In this game, all you get *beside* the looks is a minor QoL. And I can't stress enough on "minor". Like I said, the metaphor breaks at some point. You're not asking to get an accessible facsimile of an exclusive item. You're asking for a de facto exclusive item to stop being exclusive. Sorry, can't agree. Sure, I'm biased. But then again, can you blame me? It is *my* months of effort that got rewarded by that item. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > See. .. No.. I **can** blame you for being like this.. because.. I don't understand your mindset. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Case in point, I spent hundreds of tries to do the Mad King till I finally beat it.. once I beat it.. doing to again I think around two dozen more times was pretty easy in compairosn.. and raids are not intrinsically different then doing that.. once the mechanic and method is learned, it becomes easy to the point of a grind, where you know exactly why and where you failed if you fail at all. I just had no one helping me nor could anyone carry me, I also didn't need to worry about anyone else screwing it up for me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now, If this year, they put in an easy path for Mad King so others could learn it and complete it, like they did with Winters Day, I would welcome it.. I would not turn into an insufferable baby crying about my efforts and the like, I would share in the joy that other players are now having, I would enjoy running with them, and think it was better overall for the game that it was more inclusive. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So.. No.. I don't respect your stand, but.. it's not you I blame.. I blame Anet for being foolish enough to think that catering to that kind of mindset will profit their game.. it won't. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It will slowly kill this game, and your rewards will be vaporware. > > > > > > > > Dark Souls was challenging when I first played it > > > > > > > > But now I could probably do a zero death run with a little bit of practice on the sequence break at the mandatory death. It's still fun to revisit it, to play new roles and builds and to continue getting better even though I'm at least at the minimum threshold for beating it. Same with raids. Plus with raids you're playing with friends, making it communal as well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Would you cry like an inconsolable child if they put an option for "Easy" into Dark Souls ? > > > > > > > > > > > > I'd of beaten it in 15 minutes and then never thought about it again as opposed to it being my favorite game of all time and having completely changed how I view video games. My life would absolutely be lessened if Demon's Souls and Dark Souls had an easy mode, which is exactly what would happen for most players and raids. > > > > > > > > > > So if they had put in an easy mode.. you would not have challenged yourself to play the Hard or Normal Version.. fascinating. > > > > > > > > Same reason why I never bothered fighting CM Mordremoth. There's no risk real of failure. There's always a safety net of the easy mode to fall back on. The danger of missing out, that these enemies are too strong for me makes them interesting. Matthias, and Xera, and Gorseval, Deimos and Dhuum are all more interesting because they're actually as threatening in game as they allegedly are story wise. Part of why the Elder Dragons are so uninteresting as antagonists is because they're supposed to be these huge world ending threats but in game they'll always be so weak that anyone can beat them without any difficulty. > > > > > > Let me see if I have this right, because you can't bring yourself to do hard mode, you feel that an Easy Mode should not exist. > > > > > > That has got to be.. the worst rational I have ever read on this topic.. and it's not even the first time I have read it, but the rational still remains the worst I have heard. > > > > It's not that I can't bring myself to do a hard mode, so much that removing the potentiality for failure makes it uninteresting. > > And yet you play GW2. as opposed to a hardcore MMO... something is not adding up. I used to enjoy GW2 quite a bit. Then once I started raiding I enjoyed it even more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 > @"maddoctor.2738" said: >Yes but you are NOT a representative of the community, you are a very special case. Source? >It's more than easy to figure out that the open world players are NOT touching instances in the game, not Fractals, not dungeons, not nothing like that. It's even easier to figure out that plenty of them *are* playing instanced content, or at least once did when it was more relevant. Again, **not** every single player, that is not the target figure, but *plenty* that don't currently raid. >A: Do you like INSTANCED CONTENT? >B: NO. >A: What about EASY RAIDS? >B: Still INSTANCED CONTENT I'm not talking about those people. Those people are not on my radar and are not relevant to this discussion. The ones I'm talking about would be more like: A: Do you like INSTANCED CONTENT? B: Some of it, not raids though. A: Why not? B: Because they take too long to set up for, you have to "train" and have all sorts of checks, and chances are you'll fail far more often than you succeed for a while. A: So if we removed those issues with the content? B: then obviously I would enjoy it, as would tens of thousands of other players who feel the same way. >I hope you understand it now. Your examples are still irrelevant. No, they were just addressing completely different players than yours were. >Well, an actual open world player said so. *An* open world player does not speak for everyone. I'm sure he is an accurate representation of himself, no more. >Ohoni is not an open world player, is an exception to the rule. There's nothing exceptional about me. There are some players who *only* open world. There are some who *only* raid. There are plenty of who all sorts of content in the game, and would be willing to raid if the circumstances made it more appealing. There is nothing at all unreasonable about this assertion. You are just choosing to completely ignore thousands of your fellow players by just lumping them in with "one guy you heard." >Now I can also redirect you earlier to the thread when statistics from gw2eff were also posted, clearly showing that a great deal of players doesn't actually run instances, at all, and out of those that do, But the statistics didn't show that at all, they only showed that not everyone *completely* cleared the dungeons (which is not a requirement for players to be interested in easy mode raiding). Again, there is ZERO data to support your claim that there are not large portions of the playerbase who would be interested in easy mode raids, however much you try to manipulate data to give the appearance that this might be the case. Why do you do this? Why does the truth not interest you as much as smokescreens? Shouldn't you have an interest in participating in this discussion in good faith? >Now I'd like to see your source that clearly shows your claims. There is evidence against you so it's your time to provide some to support your point. Again, you've provided no evidence, just supposition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > Source? > Source that you are representative of the community? > It's even easier to figure out that plenty of them *are* playing instanced content, or at least once did when it was more relevant. Again, **not** every single player, that is not the target figure, but *plenty* that don't currently raid. Source? > I'm not talking about those people. Those people are not on my radar and are not relevant to this discussion. The ones I'm talking about would be more like: Evidence that there are enough of those players out there to support a new game mode? > *An* open world player does not speak for everyone. I'm sure he is an accurate representation of himself, no more. > You are an accurate representation of yourself too. Nobody else. > But the statistics didn't show that at all, they only showed that not everyone *completely* cleared the dungeons (which is not a requirement for players to be interested in easy mode raiding). It is. > Again, there is ZERO data to support your claim that there are not large portions of the playerbase who would be interested in easy mode raids, Show me the data that supports your claim that a large portion of the playerbase will be interested in easy mode Raids. > Again, you've provided no evidence, just supposition. > I provided enough evidence, at least for now. Now it's your turn to provide some. I'll be waiting for your sources. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 > @"maddoctor.2738" said: >Source that you are representative of the community? Source that I'm not. You assert that I'm some anomaly, that there is nobody else in the entire game who doesn't raid but would if presented with an easier alternative. I'm asking for your source on that, because it defies all common sense. >Source? The fact that plenty more *have* at some point engaged in dungeon and other instanced content than raid. >Evidence that there are enough of those players out there to support a new game mode? When you provide actual evidence that there are not. Until then, I think it's the most logical assumption based on what we already know of the game, and so do you. I'm tired of the roundabout, you clearly aren't acting in good faith. I know that I am being honest with you, and that will have to be good enough for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigmoid.7082 Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > The flaw in your argument was not that you misremembered your own experiences, it's that you assumed your own experiences applied to large portions of the community. > How can you say this in a other thread but here ask for a source for you not representing the wider community. You have literally told someone that their views and experiences aren't indicative of what the community is feeling yet perpetuate you speak for so many based on the very same. Pretty much every single one of your argument would be less frustrating to read or wrap my head around if you changed it from we to I but this wouldn't work since it would come across as selfish as it actually is. This entire thread is pretty much pointless as nothing new has really been said. A common ground had even been reached in the first 20-30 pages. The last 40 or so have just been you getting the armour nothing more. The only reason I suspect this thread is still open is because it's better than having a new one pop up and changed into an 'I want the arnour' and to keep all the beaten dead horse arguments in one place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > Source that I'm not. You assert that I'm some anomaly, that there is nobody else in the entire game who doesn't raid but would if presented with an easier alternative. I'm asking for your source on that, because it defies all common sense. I want a source that you are not an anomaly. Go ahead provide one. What is funny at this point: > An open world player does not speak for everyone. I'm sure he is an accurate representation of himself, no more. Another player isn't speaking for everyone, but you do. Another player isn't an accurate representation of the community but you are. How high is your ego to think that you are something so special? Who exactly do you think you are that your simple un-backed opinions are more important than anyone else's? > The fact that plenty more *have* at some point engaged in dungeon and other instanced content than raid. That's not a fact and you know it. So asking again, where is your source? > When you provide actual evidence that there are not. Until then, I think it's the most logical assumption based on what we already know of the game, and so do you. That's not how it works. Provide evidence that there ARE enough players, the most logical assumption based on what we already know of the game is that there are not enough players to support a new game mode. So provide your sources proving that there are, because based on the game there aren't. > I'm tired of the roundabout, you clearly aren't acting in good faith. I know that I am being honest with you, and that will have to be good enough for me. That's my line not yours. You asked me to provide sources, I provided more than enough. Now it's my turn to ask you of your sources. So where are your sources? And you need to tone down your ego, at this point it's getting to unhealthy levels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > How can you say this in a other thread but here ask for a source for you not representing the wider community. You have literally told someone that their views and experiences aren't indicative of what the community is feeling yet perpetuate you speak for so many based on the very same. Because I am not making an unreasonable claim. >Pretty much every single one of your argument would be less frustrating to read or wrap my head around if you changed it from we to I but this wouldn't work since it would come across as selfish as it actually is. Again, it is not selfish, it's for the betterment of the game as a whole. > @"maddoctor.2738" said: >Another player isn't speaking for everyone, but you do. Another player isn't an accurate representation of the community but you are. >How high is your ego to think that you are something so special? Who exactly do you think you are that your simple un-backed opinions are more important than anyone else's? No. Back up. Try again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > No. > > Back up. > > Try again. Tried clicking on those... thought they provided the sources and/or citations your claims really need. But they aren't links sadly. So. Back up Try again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > No. > > > > Back up. > > > > Try again. > > Tried clicking on those... thought they provided the sources and/or citations your claims really need. But they aren't links sadly. > So. > Back up > Try again Like I said, I'm not interested in playing games with you. You aren't participating in good faith, you are claiming things that you know are not true. I will wait until you are willing to be honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > No. > > > > > > Back up. > > > > > > Try again. > > > > Tried clicking on those... thought they provided the sources and/or citations your claims really need. But they aren't links sadly. > > So. > > Back up > > Try again > > Like I said, I'm not interested in playing games with you. You aren't participating in good faith, you are claiming things that you know are not true. I will wait until you are willing to be honest. I'm not interested in playing games either, I asked for sources, you provided none yet. You are claiming things that you know are not true and not providing anything to back them up. I will wait until you tone down your ego and provide evidence and sources for your empty claims. I'll advice anyone else posting here to do the same, it's been 70 pages of you claiming things and you never ONCE provided any shred of evidence to support them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 > @"maddoctor.2738" said: >I'm not interested in playing games either, I asked for sources, you provided none yet. and I won't, because neither of us can have any, *or* have any capacity to accumulate any. All *either* of us will *ever* be capable of doing is providing circumstantial evidence, like the 55% of respondents to this poll that indicated they wanted an easy mode added. I gave a pretty simple and reasonable premise, that there is a population of players, likely to be somewhere between 25-200% of the current raiding population, who would engage in easy mode raids if they were available. I do not believe that this is an extraordinary claim that would require extraordinary evidence, I believe that it is 100% consistent with everything *we* know about GW2 and its player population. I believe that you know this too, but that you instead choose to feign ignorance for reasons I cannot understand. I am asking you to stop. Just engage honestly, say what *you* know to be true, as I have been doing. If your position is the correct one, then it can hold up to the truth, and you don't need to cloak it in deception. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > and I won't, because neither of us can have any, *or* have any capacity to accumulate any. I actually posted some data. > I gave a pretty simple and reasonable premise, that there is a population of players, likely to be somewhere between 25-200% of the current raiding population, who would engage in easy mode raids if they were available. And I seriously doubt that. Even something like Arah was finished by what? 24%? Compared with the 24% of some of the Raid bosses and you see why your premise is failing. Show us where the amount of players completing instanced content exceeds the amount of those Raiding by a reasonable amount that can make a new game mode possible/healthy. I never doubted that there is an amount of players that will be interested in something like that, I insist that they are not enough. > I do not believe that this is an extraordinary claim that would require extraordinary evidence, I believe that it is 100% consistent with everything *we* know about GW2 and its player population. That's way too far from the truth and you know it, the players that play this game are out there in the Open World not inside some instances. That's what **we** know about GW2 and its player population. Saying that for some magical reason those that do not like instanced content will like easy mode Raids, needs some heavy evidence to explain and verify. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 > @"maddoctor.2738" said: >I actually posted some data. What you've posted so far should never be confused for "data." As I said, *neither* of us has any capability of accumulating anything more than circumstantial evidence. >And I seriously doubt that. Even something like Arah was finished by what? 24%? But again, *that is not the standard.* A Player does not need to complete Arah to want to play easy mode raids. We went over the many reasons why that may be the case. >Show us where the amount of players completing instanced content exceeds the amount of those Raiding by a reasonable amount that can make a new game mode possible/healthy. Ok, point me to where I would find that data. It exists, but I just can't see where either of us would have access to it. If you assume that I can find it, then point me to it. >I never doubted that there is an amount of players that will be interested in something like that, I insist that they are not enough. And I believe we both understand that to be the less-likely position. >That's way too far from the truth and you know it, the players that play this game are out there in the Open World not inside some instances. Many are, but far from all. There are healthy amounts of players that payed the dungeons back in their prime, that play story encounters today. There aren't any easy mode raids for them to participate in, but it's the more reasonable position to take that if these were available, they would play. >Saying that for some magical reason those that do not like instanced content will like easy mode Raids, needs some heavy evidence to explain and verify. Again, **I have never claimed that "those who do not like instanced content" would play easy mode raids.** That is your strawman position for me. My position, which you've proven afraid to address directly, is that the population of GW2 players who *do* enjoy spending *some* of their time in instanced content, *would* particiopate in raids if they were more casual and accessible, even if the existing raids turn them off. I believe you know this to be true as well, which is why you do everything you can to avoid addressing it directly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > What you've posted so far should never be confused for "data." As I said, *neither* of us has any capability of accumulating anything more than circumstantial evidence. It is data. You should know how statistics work. > But again, *that is not the standard.* A Player does not need to complete Arah to want to play easy mode raids. We went over the many reasons why that may be the case. No but a player that has no interest in instanced content won't play easy mode Raids. > Ok, point me to where I would find that data. It exists, but I just can't see where either of us would have access to it. If you assume that I can find it, then point me to it. Already posted data pointing to the contrary. > And I believe we both understand that to be the less-likely position. Not really. We both understand that is the most-likely position, unless proven otherwise. > There aren't any easy mode raids for them to participate in, but it's the more reasonable position to take that if these were available, they would play. Not really that's not a reasonable position at all. > My position, which you've proven afraid to address directly, is that the population of GW2 players who *do* enjoy spending *some* of their time in instanced content, *would* particiopate in raids if they were more casual and accessible, even if the existing raids turn them off. I believe you know this to be true as well, which is why you do everything you can to avoid addressing it directly. Citation/source/something needed here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 > @"maddoctor.2738" said: >It is data. You should know how statistics work. Yes, I know how statistics work, which is why nothing you've presented is data. >No but a player that has no interest in instanced content won't play easy mode Raids. Agreed, as always, but we have absolutely no measure of how many "players with no interest in instanced content" there are. "Players who have cleared Arah" is obviously no standard for that. >Already posted data pointing to the contrary. Again, no you have not. >Not really. We both understand that is the most-likely position, unless proven otherwise. That's not how anything works. >Citation/source/something needed here. After you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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