Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]

[Tyson.5160]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > > @"Kilamanjaro.2705" said:

> > > > Taking a cookie cutter build, made by someone else, into a fight that is exactly the same every time, using a rotation that was developed by someone else makes a better player?

> > >

> > > This is exactly what happens in PVP too you know.

> >

> > Except what is different is the human player element and that the fight isn’t exactly the same every time.

> >

>

> You'd be surprised about that. You learn how to counter different builds with your own build and then you can make the fights the same. Unless you are talking at the highest tournament level of course. Playing at bronze PVP level you fight "players" that are dumber than the AI, much easier to deal with than scripted encounters.

 

I don’t play at Bronze so I can’t comment on that.

 

That being said, you can have different people playing the same exact build and yet see different results. As well as the different class combinations can make battles very different. With Raids you know what your walking into generally, with PvP there are a tons of unknowns.

[nia.4725]

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > @"Kilamanjaro.2705" said:

> > > Taking a cookie cutter build, made by someone else, into a fight that is exactly the same every time, using a rotation that was developed by someone else makes a better player?

> >

> > This is exactly what happens in PVP too you know.

>

> Except what is different is the human player element and that the fight isn’t exactly the same every time.

>

 

But we all know that Things Happen. It's not true that raids are always the same, it's obvious and it's sad that some people here want to make an argument out of it. Things Happen, as simple as that, compositions vary, too, and that has an impact on the try you're in. When you have a bunch of mechanics that interrupt/modify your rotation and behavior, sometimes unexpected things happen. Like being the main feedback on Matthias and getting a poison, and surprise, the backup doesn't place perfectly the feedback, or can't do it either. Or when you go to Matthias with no mirages and you lack cc, that is very different from going to Matthias with 209482904 mesmers. Or you're handkiting Deimos CM and the tank is in that point of the fight when they are the nearest they can be to you and your group has bad luck and Saul spawns very, very far from Deimos so a player gets a set of hands and has to deal with them (and no that isn't the kiter's fault).

 

There are a lot of things that can change a raid, It's never the same.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> That being said, you can have different people playing the same exact build and yet see different results. As well as the different class combinations can make battles very different. With Raids you know what your walking into generally, with PvP there are a tons of unknowns.

 

Well in Raids you won't always have the exact same composition either. I can usually "tell" if my team or the enemy team will win a PVP match before it even starts, you can see if your team has enough sustain or not. Or how many Scourges or Mirages both teams stack. Or if one team has a Thief (not Deadeye) and the other doesn't. Of course playing well will make a difference, but you can still make guesses on what happen and be mostly accurate. Which is why when my team doesn't have something and the other does, I will either switch or ask someone of the team to switch. You CAN know when it's hopeless to even play the match in PVP.

[Tyson.5160]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > That being said, you can have different people playing the same exact build and yet see different results. As well as the different class combinations can make battles very different. With Raids you know what your walking into generally, with PvP there are a tons of unknowns.

>

> Well in Raids you won't always have the exact same composition either. I can usually "tell" if my team or the enemy team will win a PVP match before it even starts, you can see if your team has enough sustain or not. Or how many Scourges or Mirages both teams stack. Or if one team has a Thief (not Deadeye) and the other doesn't. Of course playing well will make a difference, but you can still make guesses on what happen and be mostly accurate. Which is why when my team doesn't have something and the other does, I will either switch or ask someone of the team to switch. You CAN know when it's hopeless to even play the match in PVP.

 

It also depends your team and opposing team strategy as well and the fact that the strategy can change anytime during the fight. To say that Raids is as fluid as pvp is nonsense though, unless the raid boss changes strategies and starts doing things outside the scripted encounter.

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"nia.4725" said:

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > > @"Kilamanjaro.2705" said:

> > > > Taking a cookie cutter build, made by someone else, into a fight that is exactly the same every time, using a rotation that was developed by someone else makes a better player?

> > >

> > > This is exactly what happens in PVP too you know.

> >

> > Except what is different is the human player element and that the fight isn’t exactly the same every time.

> >

>

> But we all know that Things Happen. It's not true that raids are always the same, it's obvious and it's sad that some people here want to make an argument out of it. Things Happen, as simple as that, compositions vary, too, and that has an impact on the try you're in. When you have a bunch of mechanics that interrupt/modify your rotation and behavior, sometimes unexpected things happen. Like being the main feedback on Matthias and getting a poison, and surprise, the backup doesn't place perfectly the feedback, or can't do it either. Or when you go to Matthias with no mirages and you lack cc, that is very different from going to Matthias with 209482904 mesmers. Or you're handkiting Deimos CM and the tank is in that point of the fight when they are the nearest they can be to you and your group has bad luck and Saul spawns very, very far from Deimos so a player gets a set of hands and has to deal with them (and no that isn't the kiter's fault).

>

> There are a lot of things that can change a raid, It's never the same.

 

Mhm. Some nights my group will blitz through everything. Other nights we'll get stuck on bosses because we aren't playing to the best of our ability.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> It also depends your team and opposing team strategy as well and the fact that the strategy can change anytime during the fight. To say that Raids is as fluid as pvp is nonsense though, unless the raid boss changes strategies and starts doing things outside the scripted encounter.

 

Strategy is only part of it. And all Raid bosses have random attacks, like who will get poisoned and who will get fixated. You are saying that Raid encounters are always the same when in reality most fights are not the same, with the exception of maybe Gorseval. If Raid fights were always the same then everyone would beat them no?

[nia.4725]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > @"nia.4725" said:

> > > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > > > @"Kilamanjaro.2705" said:

> > > > > Taking a cookie cutter build, made by someone else, into a fight that is exactly the same every time, using a rotation that was developed by someone else makes a better player?

> > > >

> > > > This is exactly what happens in PVP too you know.

> > >

> > > Except what is different is the human player element and that the fight isn’t exactly the same every time.

> > >

> >

> > But we all know that Things Happen. It's not true that raids are always the same, it's obvious and it's sad that some people here want to make an argument out of it. Things Happen, as simple as that, compositions vary, too, and that has an impact on the try you're in. When you have a bunch of mechanics that interrupt/modify your rotation and behavior, sometimes unexpected things happen. Like being the main feedback on Matthias and getting a poison, and surprise, the backup doesn't place perfectly the feedback, or can't do it either. Or when you go to Matthias with no mirages and you lack cc, that is very different from going to Matthias with 209482904 mesmers. Or you're handkiting Deimos CM and the tank is in that point of the fight when they are the nearest they can be to you and your group has bad luck and Saul spawns very, very far from Deimos so a player gets a set of hands and has to deal with them (and no that isn't the kiter's fault).

> >

> > There are a lot of things that can change a raid, It's never the same.

>

> Mhm. Some nights my group will blitz through everything. Other nights we'll get stuck on bosses because we aren't playing to the best of our ability.

 

Yeah hahaha. It's very entertaining, my static is like that too. Like, on wednesday we were 10 (tho we had an stand-in and some LFG people) and only did W3 (a very bad W3, to be honest). We didn't kill Slothasor because we kept fucking things up. Next day, however, we 8manned a very clean and smooth W2 and did 8man Sabetha with no druids. Sometimes you have one of those days.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > @"Kilamanjaro.2705" said:

> > > Taking a cookie cutter build, made by someone else, into a fight that is exactly the same every time, using a rotation that was developed by someone else makes a better player?

> >

> > This is exactly what happens in PVP too you know.

>

> Except what is different is the human player element and that the fight isn’t exactly the same every time.

>

 

Except it isn't. The human element is there in both cases. Being on your side or against it doesn't make that much of a difference.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > @"Kilamanjaro.2705" said:

> > > Taking a cookie cutter build, made by someone else, into a fight that is exactly the same every time, using a rotation that was developed by someone else makes a better player?

> >

> > This is exactly what happens in PVP too you know.

>

> Except what is different is the human player element and that the fight isn’t exactly the same every time.

>

 

Well yes, except for the players who just copy a metabattle build on the flavor of the month "I dominate all" class and play spvp with that right? Then it all comes down to experience and knowing when to use what skill against which class at that point in time. Similar to a pve raid boss.

 

Now I'm not saying a human versus human environment isn't potentially more dynamic (and often is more dynamic especially in the lower leagues) but let's not over hype this now, especially in GW2 where no matter how good or bad you are at spvp, you get your rewards. Basically removing a big incentive to improve to the individual.

 

Same as with raids, players are skill caped at different skill levels, compositions change, people have bad days, etc.

 

The difficulty of pve content, while less dynamic, can actually be manipulated a lot easier than pvp content by the developer by designing the content with a certain amount of mistake leeway. Thus making it far more difficult than spvp if so desired. Imagine Arenanet designed a boss fight where there was 0.1% room for error, that would beat just about any difficulty spvp could provide and just like in spvp, people would reach their natural skill cap and not be able to proceed or beat it.

[nia.4725]

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > That being said, you can have different people playing the same exact build and yet see different results. As well as the different class combinations can make battles very different. With Raids you know what your walking into generally, with PvP there are a tons of unknowns.

> >

> > Well in Raids you won't always have the exact same composition either. I can usually "tell" if my team or the enemy team will win a PVP match before it even starts, you can see if your team has enough sustain or not. Or how many Scourges or Mirages both teams stack. Or if one team has a Thief (not Deadeye) and the other doesn't. Of course playing well will make a difference, but you can still make guesses on what happen and be mostly accurate. Which is why when my team doesn't have something and the other does, I will either switch or ask someone of the team to switch. You CAN know when it's hopeless to even play the match in PVP.

>

> It also depends your team and opposing team strategy as well and the fact that the strategy can change anytime during the fight. To say that Raids is as fluid as pvp is nonsense though, unless the raid boss changes strategies and starts doing things outside the scripted encounter.

 

To say that Raids is as fluid as pvp is nonsense, but to say that raids aren't fluid at all is nonsense too.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"nia.4725" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > @"nia.4725" said:

> > > > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > > > > @"Kilamanjaro.2705" said:

> > > > > > Taking a cookie cutter build, made by someone else, into a fight that is exactly the same every time, using a rotation that was developed by someone else makes a better player?

> > > > >

> > > > > This is exactly what happens in PVP too you know.

> > > >

> > > > Except what is different is the human player element and that the fight isn’t exactly the same every time.

> > > >

> > >

> > > But we all know that Things Happen. It's not true that raids are always the same, it's obvious and it's sad that some people here want to make an argument out of it. Things Happen, as simple as that, compositions vary, too, and that has an impact on the try you're in. When you have a bunch of mechanics that interrupt/modify your rotation and behavior, sometimes unexpected things happen. Like being the main feedback on Matthias and getting a poison, and surprise, the backup doesn't place perfectly the feedback, or can't do it either. Or when you go to Matthias with no mirages and you lack cc, that is very different from going to Matthias with 209482904 mesmers. Or you're handkiting Deimos CM and the tank is in that point of the fight when they are the nearest they can be to you and your group has bad luck and Saul spawns very, very far from Deimos so a player gets a set of hands and has to deal with them (and no that isn't the kiter's fault).

> > >

> > > There are a lot of things that can change a raid, It's never the same.

> >

> > Mhm. Some nights my group will blitz through everything. Other nights we'll get stuck on bosses because we aren't playing to the best of our ability.

>

> Yeah hahaha. It's very entertaining, my static is like that too. Like, on wednesday we were 10 (tho we had an stand-in and some LFG people) and only did W3 (a very bad W3, to be honest). We didn't kill Slothasor because we kept kitten things up. Next day, however, we 8manned a very clean and smooth W2 and did 8man Sabetha with no druids. Sometimes you have one of those days.

 

Yeah, we've all been there. What really grinds my gears in those situations is the often accompanying nonsense talk on voice chat. Now I don't mind people enjoying themselves or talking utter nonsense (no details, we all know what some people decide to share...), but when we wipe on a boss we've killed dozens of times because someone forgot to run out with poison for the 5th or so time, FOCUS UP! :s

[nia.4725]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"nia.4725" said:

> > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > @"nia.4725" said:

> > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > > > > > @"Kilamanjaro.2705" said:

> > > > > > > Taking a cookie cutter build, made by someone else, into a fight that is exactly the same every time, using a rotation that was developed by someone else makes a better player?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > This is exactly what happens in PVP too you know.

> > > > >

> > > > > Except what is different is the human player element and that the fight isn’t exactly the same every time.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > But we all know that Things Happen. It's not true that raids are always the same, it's obvious and it's sad that some people here want to make an argument out of it. Things Happen, as simple as that, compositions vary, too, and that has an impact on the try you're in. When you have a bunch of mechanics that interrupt/modify your rotation and behavior, sometimes unexpected things happen. Like being the main feedback on Matthias and getting a poison, and surprise, the backup doesn't place perfectly the feedback, or can't do it either. Or when you go to Matthias with no mirages and you lack cc, that is very different from going to Matthias with 209482904 mesmers. Or you're handkiting Deimos CM and the tank is in that point of the fight when they are the nearest they can be to you and your group has bad luck and Saul spawns very, very far from Deimos so a player gets a set of hands and has to deal with them (and no that isn't the kiter's fault).

> > > >

> > > > There are a lot of things that can change a raid, It's never the same.

> > >

> > > Mhm. Some nights my group will blitz through everything. Other nights we'll get stuck on bosses because we aren't playing to the best of our ability.

> >

> > Yeah hahaha. It's very entertaining, my static is like that too. Like, on wednesday we were 10 (tho we had an stand-in and some LFG people) and only did W3 (a very bad W3, to be honest). We didn't kill Slothasor because we kept kitten things up. Next day, however, we 8manned a very clean and smooth W2 and did 8man Sabetha with no druids. Sometimes you have one of those days.

>

> Yeah, we've all been there. What really grinds my gears in those situations is the often accompanying nonsense talk on voice chat. Now I don't mind people enjoying themselves or talking utter nonsense (no details, we all know what some people decide to share...), but when we wipe on a boss we've killed dozens of times because someone forgot to run out with poison for the 5th or so time, FOCUS UP! :s

 

Yeah, that completely kills my nerves. I'm lucky to never experience that in that specific static -we usually stay very quiet in the middle of the try, and just speak when we have to communicate something (like, coordinating pulls on Sloth or communicating the epi on the boss so that the other necros can epi the mobs), otherwise we let our raid leader speak. For me, that's perfect. Too many people talking at once is confusing and does not help focusing, at all : / The thing with my static is that we aren't a clearing one. Our aim is not to just clear everything. My static's goal is to learn and improve, to become multiclass raiders who can do, eventually, all roles; to become better and to kill things in a clean, smooth way. Wether we kill everything or not is not the main thing, ofc it's cool if we do but if we don't it's okay, too. So, we are always more concerned about having played badly than about having killed few bosses.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> I'm only comparing to the PvE playerbase since raids are PvE, not PvP or WvW. But even in those two game modes, especially WvW, are many "not so skilled" players. It's fascinating how I could win duels in zerker armor in WvW because I knew my class while my opponent was trying to throw everything on me that he could. Same goes for a lot of people in PvP.

Notice, how the same person with the same amount of skill _would_ be eventually able to win a fight with you if you were a raid boss. Because they'd eventually learn your attack pattern and timings (since those would not change). But since you are a real player, with this skill difference they can only win with you if _you_ fail.

 

 

 

[yann.1946]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> > I'm only comparing to the PvE playerbase since raids are PvE, not PvP or WvW. But even in those two game modes, especially WvW, are many "not so skilled" players. It's fascinating how I could win duels in zerker armor in WvW because I knew my class while my opponent was trying to throw everything on me that he could. Same goes for a lot of people in PvP.

> Notice, how the same person with the same amount of skill _would_ be eventually able to win a fight with you if you were a raid boss. Because they'd eventually learn your attack pattern and timings (since those would not change). But since you are a real player, with this skill difference they can only win with you if _you_ fail.

>

>

 

Honestly people vary less then you'd think. There's a reason people can prepare for fights with specific players. most just never bother because you don't fight that player enough to mather

 

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> > I'm only comparing to the PvE playerbase since raids are PvE, not PvP or WvW. But even in those two game modes, especially WvW, are many "not so skilled" players. It's fascinating how I could win duels in zerker armor in WvW because I knew my class while my opponent was trying to throw everything on me that he could. Same goes for a lot of people in PvP.

> Notice, how the same person with the same amount of skill _would_ be eventually able to win a fight with you if you were a raid boss. Because they'd eventually learn your attack pattern and timings (since those would not change). But since you are a real player, with this skill difference they can only win with you if _you_ fail.

>

>

>

 

True, unless they are running a class and build which you have no chance of beating even if they were rolling their face on their keyboard singing "I'm a little teapot" (or you for that case).

 

Again, it's different types of skill involved. No one is denying that spvp has more dynamic due to the very nature of both sides having a human element, what does happen though in high competitive play is the same as in most other competitive games:

 

- you learn what and how to counter your opponent

- you learn when to use skills and patience to not burn critical skills to early

- you make modifications to your build or change class

- you repeat this process x amount of times while fine tuning it

- you hit your natural skill cap before beating your opponent thus never being able to succeed or you eventually overcome him

 

Notice how I could write the exact same process for raid bosses. The fact that different players have varying skill levels is insignificant. The actual fights between similar classes with similar builds have a set amount of possible outcomes and will eventually mimic each other at higher skill levels.

 

Again this is not me bashing spvp players or the skill involved because getting that good at your class with sufficient knowledge certainly takes time and practice but let's not pretend like every fight is a unique encounter with a huge skill ceiling to overcome. Much of spvp is practice and repetition as well as game sense.

 

When you are good at spvp and stomp 90% of the players you face (not accounting for playing an overpowered class) most of those fights were nothing special or dynamic besides you going through 1-2 more skills or not.

[Voltekka.2375]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> > > I'm only comparing to the PvE playerbase since raids are PvE, not PvP or WvW. But even in those two game modes, especially WvW, are many "not so skilled" players. It's fascinating how I could win duels in zerker armor in WvW because I knew my class while my opponent was trying to throw everything on me that he could. Same goes for a lot of people in PvP.

> > Notice, how the same person with the same amount of skill _would_ be eventually able to win a fight with you if you were a raid boss. Because they'd eventually learn your attack pattern and timings (since those would not change). But since you are a real player, with this skill difference they can only win with you if _you_ fail.

> >

> >

> >

>

> True, unless they are running a class and build which you have no chance of beating even if they were rolling their face on their keyboard singing "I'm a little teapot" (or you for that case).

>

> Again, it's different types of skill involved. No one is denying that spvp has more dynamic due to the very nature of both sides having a human element, what does happen though in high competitive play is the same as in most other competitive games:

>

> - you learn what and how to counter your opponent

> - you learn when to use skills and patience to not burn critical skills to early

> - you make modifications to your build or change class

> - you repeat this process x amount of times while fine tuning it

> - you hit your natural skill cap before beating your opponent thus never being able to succeed or you eventually overcome him

>

> Notice how I could write the exact same process for raid bosses. The fact that different players have varying skill levels is insignificant. The actual fights between similar classes with similar builds have a set amount of possible outcomes and will eventually mimic each other at higher skill levels.

>

> Again this is not me bashing spvp players or the skill involved because getting that good at your class with sufficient knowledge certainly takes time and practice but let's not pretend like every fight is a unique encounter with a huge skill ceiling to overcome. Much of spvp is practice and repetition as well as game sense.

>

> When you are good at spvp and stomp 90% of the players you face (not accounting for playing an overpowered class) most of those fights were nothing special or dynamic besides you going through 1-2 more skills or not.

 

No amount of pve dps or whatever else rotation will make you a better WvW or PvP player, sorry. I am not buying that. It is one thing to burn through a PvE boss, and learn what it does, it is quite another to know where to stand in a blob, what to cast and when, which defensive utilities to use and when, to predict where you will burst depending on your warrior's bubbles/comm movement. Same is with pvp. No amount of PvE will teach you this. PvE skills/traits/utilities vary greatly in pvp or wvw. Raids make people better PvE players in instanced content, which is to be expected ( the brain is an amazing organ which can learn fast). But against human enemies? I have serious doubt about this. Knowing your skills, is one thing. Knowing why/when to cast meteor shower and summon a lightning hammer, press 4 for max dmg output against a raid boss is fine. Wont work in other gamemodes. Sometimes, you have to sacrifice dps for CC (all classes CC in wvw or pvp, in raids they dont), you have to AoE a different spot for your teammates to corner the enemy. No, raids dont teach you this.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Voltekka.2375" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> > > > I'm only comparing to the PvE playerbase since raids are PvE, not PvP or WvW. But even in those two game modes, especially WvW, are many "not so skilled" players. It's fascinating how I could win duels in zerker armor in WvW because I knew my class while my opponent was trying to throw everything on me that he could. Same goes for a lot of people in PvP.

> > > Notice, how the same person with the same amount of skill _would_ be eventually able to win a fight with you if you were a raid boss. Because they'd eventually learn your attack pattern and timings (since those would not change). But since you are a real player, with this skill difference they can only win with you if _you_ fail.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > True, unless they are running a class and build which you have no chance of beating even if they were rolling their face on their keyboard singing "I'm a little teapot" (or you for that case).

> >

> > Again, it's different types of skill involved. No one is denying that spvp has more dynamic due to the very nature of both sides having a human element, what does happen though in high competitive play is the same as in most other competitive games:

> >

> > - you learn what and how to counter your opponent

> > - you learn when to use skills and patience to not burn critical skills to early

> > - you make modifications to your build or change class

> > - you repeat this process x amount of times while fine tuning it

> > - you hit your natural skill cap before beating your opponent thus never being able to succeed or you eventually overcome him

> >

> > Notice how I could write the exact same process for raid bosses. The fact that different players have varying skill levels is insignificant. The actual fights between similar classes with similar builds have a set amount of possible outcomes and will eventually mimic each other at higher skill levels.

> >

> > Again this is not me bashing spvp players or the skill involved because getting that good at your class with sufficient knowledge certainly takes time and practice but let's not pretend like every fight is a unique encounter with a huge skill ceiling to overcome. Much of spvp is practice and repetition as well as game sense.

> >

> > When you are good at spvp and stomp 90% of the players you face (not accounting for playing an overpowered class) most of those fights were nothing special or dynamic besides you going through 1-2 more skills or not.

>

> No amount of pve dps or whatever else rotation will make you a better WvW or PvP player, sorry. I am not buying that.

 

It's up to you what to believe. But I did become a better WvW player. You could nitpick and say it's because I also played WvW in addition to raids, which I did. But the truth is, the two experiences both teach stuff about the class you're playing. And you *can*, in fact, apply something learned in one mode to another.

[nia.4725]

> @"Voltekka.2375" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> > > > I'm only comparing to the PvE playerbase since raids are PvE, not PvP or WvW. But even in those two game modes, especially WvW, are many "not so skilled" players. It's fascinating how I could win duels in zerker armor in WvW because I knew my class while my opponent was trying to throw everything on me that he could. Same goes for a lot of people in PvP.

> > > Notice, how the same person with the same amount of skill _would_ be eventually able to win a fight with you if you were a raid boss. Because they'd eventually learn your attack pattern and timings (since those would not change). But since you are a real player, with this skill difference they can only win with you if _you_ fail.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > True, unless they are running a class and build which you have no chance of beating even if they were rolling their face on their keyboard singing "I'm a little teapot" (or you for that case).

> >

> > Again, it's different types of skill involved. No one is denying that spvp has more dynamic due to the very nature of both sides having a human element, what does happen though in high competitive play is the same as in most other competitive games:

> >

> > - you learn what and how to counter your opponent

> > - you learn when to use skills and patience to not burn critical skills to early

> > - you make modifications to your build or change class

> > - you repeat this process x amount of times while fine tuning it

> > - you hit your natural skill cap before beating your opponent thus never being able to succeed or you eventually overcome him

> >

> > Notice how I could write the exact same process for raid bosses. The fact that different players have varying skill levels is insignificant. The actual fights between similar classes with similar builds have a set amount of possible outcomes and will eventually mimic each other at higher skill levels.

> >

> > Again this is not me bashing spvp players or the skill involved because getting that good at your class with sufficient knowledge certainly takes time and practice but let's not pretend like every fight is a unique encounter with a huge skill ceiling to overcome. Much of spvp is practice and repetition as well as game sense.

> >

> > When you are good at spvp and stomp 90% of the players you face (not accounting for playing an overpowered class) most of those fights were nothing special or dynamic besides you going through 1-2 more skills or not.

>

> No amount of pve dps or whatever else rotation will make you a better WvW or PvP player, sorry. I am not buying that. It is one thing to burn through a PvE boss, and learn what it does, it is quite another to know where to stand in a blob, what to cast and when, which defensive utilities to use and when, to predict where you will burst depending on your warrior's bubbles/comm movement. Same is with pvp. No amount of PvE will teach you this. PvE skills/traits/utilities vary greatly in pvp or wvw. Raids make people better PvE players in instanced content, which is to be expected ( the brain is an amazing organ which can learn fast). But against human enemies? I have serious doubt about this. Knowing your skills, is one thing. Knowing why/when to cast meteor shower and summon a lightning hammer, press 4 for max dmg output against a raid boss is fine. Wont work in other gamemodes. Sometimes, you have to sacrifice dps for CC (all classes CC in wvw or pvp, in raids they dont), you have to AoE a different spot for your teammates to corner the enemy. No, raids dont teach you this.

 

I have to disagree, based on my own experience.

 

Raids not only make you learn a rotation. Raids make your learn your class, they make you be more aware of the things happening around you, and they teach you to adapt faster and more successfully, and to deal with sudden problems. That surely helps when playing PvP and WvW. Raids make you a better player, and a better player does better in other game modes.

 

And when I say "based on my own experience":

Before I started raiding, I always got placed in silver. I played OW but I also did a lot of PvP. Always in silver. Then I got into raids, left PvP for a while, and some time after I came back and reached gold. Since then, I've always reached gold, even though I'm almost always placed in silver at the start. Obviously raiding won't make you a plat or legendary pvp player, but they do help improve as a player and that can be seen in other game modes.

 

Same with wvw. Through raids, I've learnt to play support firebrand. I'm very used to play support/healer roles (I'm main druid and chrono, but I also play heal herald and heal firebrand before I play DPS classes). So, when I got invited into a wvw guild raid, I used my firebrand there and I did my job fairly well. The things I was worse at were those specific to wvw (like how to move in a zerg), but the part of using my class was good. And, honestly, that's way MORE than what some know-it-all wvw players in my servers do. They think they're good just because they do a lot of wvw, and the reality is they suck. Because they don't know how to play their class.

 

So no, raids don't teach you certain things, but they do teach you some things that make easier for you to play some other modes successfully, or lessen the distante you have to walk to be a good player there.

[Voltekka.2375]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Voltekka.2375" said:

> > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > > @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> > > > > I'm only comparing to the PvE playerbase since raids are PvE, not PvP or WvW. But even in those two game modes, especially WvW, are many "not so skilled" players. It's fascinating how I could win duels in zerker armor in WvW because I knew my class while my opponent was trying to throw everything on me that he could. Same goes for a lot of people in PvP.

> > > > Notice, how the same person with the same amount of skill _would_ be eventually able to win a fight with you if you were a raid boss. Because they'd eventually learn your attack pattern and timings (since those would not change). But since you are a real player, with this skill difference they can only win with you if _you_ fail.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > True, unless they are running a class and build which you have no chance of beating even if they were rolling their face on their keyboard singing "I'm a little teapot" (or you for that case).

> > >

> > > Again, it's different types of skill involved. No one is denying that spvp has more dynamic due to the very nature of both sides having a human element, what does happen though in high competitive play is the same as in most other competitive games:

> > >

> > > - you learn what and how to counter your opponent

> > > - you learn when to use skills and patience to not burn critical skills to early

> > > - you make modifications to your build or change class

> > > - you repeat this process x amount of times while fine tuning it

> > > - you hit your natural skill cap before beating your opponent thus never being able to succeed or you eventually overcome him

> > >

> > > Notice how I could write the exact same process for raid bosses. The fact that different players have varying skill levels is insignificant. The actual fights between similar classes with similar builds have a set amount of possible outcomes and will eventually mimic each other at higher skill levels.

> > >

> > > Again this is not me bashing spvp players or the skill involved because getting that good at your class with sufficient knowledge certainly takes time and practice but let's not pretend like every fight is a unique encounter with a huge skill ceiling to overcome. Much of spvp is practice and repetition as well as game sense.

> > >

> > > When you are good at spvp and stomp 90% of the players you face (not accounting for playing an overpowered class) most of those fights were nothing special or dynamic besides you going through 1-2 more skills or not.

> >

> > No amount of pve dps or whatever else rotation will make you a better WvW or PvP player, sorry. I am not buying that.

>

> It's up to you what to believe. But I did become a better WvW player. You could nitpick and say it's because I also played WvW in addition to raids, which I did. But the truth is, the two experiences both teach stuff about the class you're playing. And you *can*, in fact, apply something learned in one mode to another.

 

It is up to you to claim what you want, as well. I am just curious as to how raiding makes one a better pvp player. I submitted my reasons why not.

[Voltekka.2375]

> @"nia.4725" said:

> > @"Voltekka.2375" said:

> > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > > @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> > > > > I'm only comparing to the PvE playerbase since raids are PvE, not PvP or WvW. But even in those two game modes, especially WvW, are many "not so skilled" players. It's fascinating how I could win duels in zerker armor in WvW because I knew my class while my opponent was trying to throw everything on me that he could. Same goes for a lot of people in PvP.

> > > > Notice, how the same person with the same amount of skill _would_ be eventually able to win a fight with you if you were a raid boss. Because they'd eventually learn your attack pattern and timings (since those would not change). But since you are a real player, with this skill difference they can only win with you if _you_ fail.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > True, unless they are running a class and build which you have no chance of beating even if they were rolling their face on their keyboard singing "I'm a little teapot" (or you for that case).

> > >

> > > Again, it's different types of skill involved. No one is denying that spvp has more dynamic due to the very nature of both sides having a human element, what does happen though in high competitive play is the same as in most other competitive games:

> > >

> > > - you learn what and how to counter your opponent

> > > - you learn when to use skills and patience to not burn critical skills to early

> > > - you make modifications to your build or change class

> > > - you repeat this process x amount of times while fine tuning it

> > > - you hit your natural skill cap before beating your opponent thus never being able to succeed or you eventually overcome him

> > >

> > > Notice how I could write the exact same process for raid bosses. The fact that different players have varying skill levels is insignificant. The actual fights between similar classes with similar builds have a set amount of possible outcomes and will eventually mimic each other at higher skill levels.

> > >

> > > Again this is not me bashing spvp players or the skill involved because getting that good at your class with sufficient knowledge certainly takes time and practice but let's not pretend like every fight is a unique encounter with a huge skill ceiling to overcome. Much of spvp is practice and repetition as well as game sense.

> > >

> > > When you are good at spvp and stomp 90% of the players you face (not accounting for playing an overpowered class) most of those fights were nothing special or dynamic besides you going through 1-2 more skills or not.

> >

> > No amount of pve dps or whatever else rotation will make you a better WvW or PvP player, sorry. I am not buying that. It is one thing to burn through a PvE boss, and learn what it does, it is quite another to know where to stand in a blob, what to cast and when, which defensive utilities to use and when, to predict where you will burst depending on your warrior's bubbles/comm movement. Same is with pvp. No amount of PvE will teach you this. PvE skills/traits/utilities vary greatly in pvp or wvw. Raids make people better PvE players in instanced content, which is to be expected ( the brain is an amazing organ which can learn fast). But against human enemies? I have serious doubt about this. Knowing your skills, is one thing. Knowing why/when to cast meteor shower and summon a lightning hammer, press 4 for max dmg output against a raid boss is fine. Wont work in other gamemodes. Sometimes, you have to sacrifice dps for CC (all classes CC in wvw or pvp, in raids they dont), you have to AoE a different spot for your teammates to corner the enemy. No, raids dont teach you this.

>

> I have to disagree, based on my own experience.

>

> Raids not only make you learn a rotation. Raids make your learn your class, they make you be more aware of the things happening around you, and they teach you to adapt faster and more successfully, and to deal with sudden problems. That surely helps when playing PvP and WvW. Raids make you a better player, and a better player does better in other game modes.

>

> And when I say "based on my own experience":

> Before I started raiding, I always got placed in silver. I played OW but I also did a lot of PvP. Always in silver. Then I got into raids, left PvP for a while, and some time after I came back and reached gold. Since then, I've always reached gold, even though I'm almost always placed in silver at the start. Obviously raiding won't make you a plat or legendary pvp player, but they do help improve as a player and that can be seen in other game modes.

>

> Same with wvw. Through raids, I've learnt to play support firebrand. I'm very used to play support/healer roles (I'm main druid and chrono, but I also play heal herald and heal firebrand before I play DPS classes). So, when I got invited into a wvw guild raid, I used my firebrand there and I did my job fairly well. The things I was worse at were those specific to wvw (like how to move in a zerg), but the part of using my class what good. And, honestly, that's way MORE than what some know-it-all wvw players in my servers do. They think they're good just because they do a lot of wvw, and the reality is they suck. Because they don't know how to play their class.

>

> So no, raids don't teach you certain things, but they do teach you some things that make easier for you to play some other modes successfully, or lessen the distante you have to walk to be a good player there.

 

All i see from several people, in this topic, is arrogance coupled with "know-it-all"ism (yourself not included). All classes are played differently in each gamemode, that is no secret. Knowing your class better means you didnt really know it too well, from the start. And what you say, although i can respect that, I can also reverse that: Knowing your wvw class well, means you will also play it well in pve, raiding included? The answer is, of course, no. Because instanced content (however hard), teaches you different stuff, stuff that have timers/you know what to expect etc. WvW teaches you different stuff, too. I know several wvwers who can play an amazing FB, they just suck horribly in pve. Same with eles/weavers, scourges (yes, skill is required there as well in wvw). I believe you (and it makes good sense) that you maybe had to dig deeper in your classes via raiding to know what synergizes with what, but it was a thing you maybe overlooked in the past (couldnt be bothered to do it). Have a good day!

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"Voltekka.2375" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> > > > I'm only comparing to the PvE playerbase since raids are PvE, not PvP or WvW. But even in those two game modes, especially WvW, are many "not so skilled" players. It's fascinating how I could win duels in zerker armor in WvW because I knew my class while my opponent was trying to throw everything on me that he could. Same goes for a lot of people in PvP.

> > > Notice, how the same person with the same amount of skill _would_ be eventually able to win a fight with you if you were a raid boss. Because they'd eventually learn your attack pattern and timings (since those would not change). But since you are a real player, with this skill difference they can only win with you if _you_ fail.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > True, unless they are running a class and build which you have no chance of beating even if they were rolling their face on their keyboard singing "I'm a little teapot" (or you for that case).

> >

> > Again, it's different types of skill involved. No one is denying that spvp has more dynamic due to the very nature of both sides having a human element, what does happen though in high competitive play is the same as in most other competitive games:

> >

> > - you learn what and how to counter your opponent

> > - you learn when to use skills and patience to not burn critical skills to early

> > - you make modifications to your build or change class

> > - you repeat this process x amount of times while fine tuning it

> > - you hit your natural skill cap before beating your opponent thus never being able to succeed or you eventually overcome him

> >

> > Notice how I could write the exact same process for raid bosses. The fact that different players have varying skill levels is insignificant. The actual fights between similar classes with similar builds have a set amount of possible outcomes and will eventually mimic each other at higher skill levels.

> >

> > Again this is not me bashing spvp players or the skill involved because getting that good at your class with sufficient knowledge certainly takes time and practice but let's not pretend like every fight is a unique encounter with a huge skill ceiling to overcome. Much of spvp is practice and repetition as well as game sense.

> >

> > When you are good at spvp and stomp 90% of the players you face (not accounting for playing an overpowered class) most of those fights were nothing special or dynamic besides you going through 1-2 more skills or not.

>

> No amount of pve dps or whatever else rotation will make you a better WvW or PvP player, sorry. I am not buying that. It is one thing to burn through a PvE boss, and learn what it does, it is quite another to know where to stand in a blob, what to cast and when, which defensive utilities to use and when, to predict where you will burst depending on your warrior's bubbles/comm movement. Same is with pvp. No amount of PvE will teach you this. PvE skills/traits/utilities vary greatly in pvp or wvw. Raids make people better PvE players in instanced content, which is to be expected ( the brain is an amazing organ which can learn fast). But against human enemies? I have serious doubt about this. Knowing your skills, is one thing. Knowing why/when to cast meteor shower and summon a lightning hammer, press 4 for max dmg output against a raid boss is fine. Wont work in other gamemodes. Sometimes, you have to sacrifice dps for CC (all classes CC in wvw or pvp, in raids they dont), you have to AoE a different spot for your teammates to corner the enemy. No, raids dont teach you this.

 

Playing raids isn't going to turn you into a God of PvP and doing actual PvP will be far better from improving your PvP skills, but just playing the game in areas where you are challenged will do things like improve your ability to move intelligently, zoning damage and AoE, and reaction speed.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Voltekka.2375" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Voltekka.2375" said:

> > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > > > @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> > > > > > I'm only comparing to the PvE playerbase since raids are PvE, not PvP or WvW. But even in those two game modes, especially WvW, are many "not so skilled" players. It's fascinating how I could win duels in zerker armor in WvW because I knew my class while my opponent was trying to throw everything on me that he could. Same goes for a lot of people in PvP.

> > > > > Notice, how the same person with the same amount of skill _would_ be eventually able to win a fight with you if you were a raid boss. Because they'd eventually learn your attack pattern and timings (since those would not change). But since you are a real player, with this skill difference they can only win with you if _you_ fail.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > True, unless they are running a class and build which you have no chance of beating even if they were rolling their face on their keyboard singing "I'm a little teapot" (or you for that case).

> > > >

> > > > Again, it's different types of skill involved. No one is denying that spvp has more dynamic due to the very nature of both sides having a human element, what does happen though in high competitive play is the same as in most other competitive games:

> > > >

> > > > - you learn what and how to counter your opponent

> > > > - you learn when to use skills and patience to not burn critical skills to early

> > > > - you make modifications to your build or change class

> > > > - you repeat this process x amount of times while fine tuning it

> > > > - you hit your natural skill cap before beating your opponent thus never being able to succeed or you eventually overcome him

> > > >

> > > > Notice how I could write the exact same process for raid bosses. The fact that different players have varying skill levels is insignificant. The actual fights between similar classes with similar builds have a set amount of possible outcomes and will eventually mimic each other at higher skill levels.

> > > >

> > > > Again this is not me bashing spvp players or the skill involved because getting that good at your class with sufficient knowledge certainly takes time and practice but let's not pretend like every fight is a unique encounter with a huge skill ceiling to overcome. Much of spvp is practice and repetition as well as game sense.

> > > >

> > > > When you are good at spvp and stomp 90% of the players you face (not accounting for playing an overpowered class) most of those fights were nothing special or dynamic besides you going through 1-2 more skills or not.

> > >

> > > No amount of pve dps or whatever else rotation will make you a better WvW or PvP player, sorry. I am not buying that.

> >

> > It's up to you what to believe. But I did become a better WvW player. You could nitpick and say it's because I also played WvW in addition to raids, which I did. But the truth is, the two experiences both teach stuff about the class you're playing. And you *can*, in fact, apply something learned in one mode to another.

>

> It is up to you to claim what you want, as well. I am just curious as to how raiding makes one a better pvp player. I submitted my reasons why not.

 

I don't PvP, so I can't tell anything for sure. Although I'm certain the better understanding of my class would have improved that as well. But in WvW, it made me better time my key skills. Sure, the movement and positioning are different, but then again, they're different for every raid boss as well. Raiding have taught me to read these better, and be quicker to adapt. Sure, I could have picked that up by just playing WvW. But I picked it up in raids, and it carried over.

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> > I'm only comparing to the PvE playerbase since raids are PvE, not PvP or WvW. But even in those two game modes, especially WvW, are many "not so skilled" players. It's fascinating how I could win duels in zerker armor in WvW because I knew my class while my opponent was trying to throw everything on me that he could. Same goes for a lot of people in PvP.

> Notice, how the same person with the same amount of skill _would_ be eventually able to win a fight with you if you were a raid boss. Because they'd eventually learn your attack pattern and timings (since those would not change). But since you are a real player, with this skill difference they can only win with you if _you_ fail.

>

>

>

 

If they're learning skills, patterns, and mechanics they're no longer the person with the same amount of skill. They're more skilled than they were when they couldn't win the fight.

[Ohoni.6057]

From all this talk, it sounds to me like raids are kind of a pain in the kitten, and maybe not every players is interested in putting up with that sort of pain in the kitten nonsense all the time, and just wants a more casual, "pick up and play" experience, and maybe if that experience were available, they would be more happy playing the game than they ever would by just accepting the pain in the kitten nonsense. That sound accurate to you guys?

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Voltekka.2375" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> > > > I'm only comparing to the PvE playerbase since raids are PvE, not PvP or WvW. But even in those two game modes, especially WvW, are many "not so skilled" players. It's fascinating how I could win duels in zerker armor in WvW because I knew my class while my opponent was trying to throw everything on me that he could. Same goes for a lot of people in PvP.

> > > Notice, how the same person with the same amount of skill _would_ be eventually able to win a fight with you if you were a raid boss. Because they'd eventually learn your attack pattern and timings (since those would not change). But since you are a real player, with this skill difference they can only win with you if _you_ fail.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > True, unless they are running a class and build which you have no chance of beating even if they were rolling their face on their keyboard singing "I'm a little teapot" (or you for that case).

> >

> > Again, it's different types of skill involved. No one is denying that spvp has more dynamic due to the very nature of both sides having a human element, what does happen though in high competitive play is the same as in most other competitive games:

> >

> > - you learn what and how to counter your opponent

> > - you learn when to use skills and patience to not burn critical skills to early

> > - you make modifications to your build or change class

> > - you repeat this process x amount of times while fine tuning it

> > - you hit your natural skill cap before beating your opponent thus never being able to succeed or you eventually overcome him

> >

> > Notice how I could write the exact same process for raid bosses. The fact that different players have varying skill levels is insignificant. The actual fights between similar classes with similar builds have a set amount of possible outcomes and will eventually mimic each other at higher skill levels.

> >

> > Again this is not me bashing spvp players or the skill involved because getting that good at your class with sufficient knowledge certainly takes time and practice but let's not pretend like every fight is a unique encounter with a huge skill ceiling to overcome. Much of spvp is practice and repetition as well as game sense.

> >

> > When you are good at spvp and stomp 90% of the players you face (not accounting for playing an overpowered class) most of those fights were nothing special or dynamic besides you going through 1-2 more skills or not.

>

> No amount of pve dps or whatever else rotation will make you a better WvW or PvP player, sorry. I am not buying that. It is one thing to burn through a PvE boss, and learn what it does, it is quite another to know where to stand in a blob, what to cast and when, which defensive utilities to use and when, to predict where you will burst depending on your warrior's bubbles/comm movement. Same is with pvp. No amount of PvE will teach you this. PvE skills/traits/utilities vary greatly in pvp or wvw. Raids make people better PvE players in instanced content, which is to be expected ( the brain is an amazing organ which can learn fast). But against human enemies? I have serious doubt about this. Knowing your skills, is one thing. Knowing why/when to cast meteor shower and summon a lightning hammer, press 4 for max dmg output against a raid boss is fine. Wont work in other gamemodes. Sometimes, you have to sacrifice dps for CC (all classes CC in wvw or pvp, in raids they dont), you have to AoE a different spot for your teammates to corner the enemy. No, raids dont teach you this.

 

I think you misunderstood what I was saying, while getting better at your class no matter which game mode will improve your core performance in all areas, I was not advocating that PVE experience/practice would improve your PVP skill. I was explaining how spvp is not that dynamic as some people make it out to be.

 

I absolutely agree that to hone and master your class you need practice in the respective game modes (and usually much of it, especially in spvp). That doesn't change the fact that many of my raiding buddies hit gold or diamond rank without practice or trying or even engaging much in the game mode. This is hardcore pve players we are talking about who do their occasional dailies or placement matches. Thus their core skills at their class I would argue is higher than many other players.