Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]

[Kizare.7950]

If your implementing Difficulty Modes then change the rewards from the mobs and Bosses. Also dont do what Blizzard did and dont create a Raid Time Lock that lock us out from playing from 24hrs to a week. Its one of WoW Raid weakness.

[zealex.9410]

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > I could fling the exact same words, using the exact same logic, back at you.

> >

> > See, Unlike you, I don't want to deprive you of anything, you can still have your difficult content, you can still have your legendary armor, you get all your baubles, and even more options, as no doubt you could also do some easy mode if the mood struck you, so, I don't need or want anything that you can't get to make me feel better. That is what separates our motives.

> >

> > I want to include you people and make the game fun for everyone, you want deny and deprive people of the rewards you feel that should be reserved just to you.

> >

> > As such there is nothing, petty or self serving about my motives, and you have openly admitted that you can't say the same.

>

> This method seems to open the raid mode to more people and the counter argument seems to be people don’t want the raid to open up to others.

 

U didnt read the counter arguements then.

[zealex.9410]

The fact that an easy mode would take longer yo get you the legendary armor doesnt mean anything. The legendary armor isnt awarded for your time spend in the raid its awarded for te effort you put into them.

 

 

Also simply because a player who got better than someome else has more possible content to do that doesnt mean he will enjoy doing it and alot of the complains iv seen is about ppl not enjoying raids.

[Tyson.5160]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > I could fling the exact same words, using the exact same logic, back at you.

> > >

> > > See, Unlike you, I don't want to deprive you of anything, you can still have your difficult content, you can still have your legendary armor, you get all your baubles, and even more options, as no doubt you could also do some easy mode if the mood struck you, so, I don't need or want anything that you can't get to make me feel better. That is what separates our motives.

> > >

> > > I want to include you people and make the game fun for everyone, you want deny and deprive people of the rewards you feel that should be reserved just to you.

> > >

> > > As such there is nothing, petty or self serving about my motives, and you have openly admitted that you can't say the same.

> >

> > This method seems to open the raid mode to more people and the counter argument seems to be people don’t want the raid to open up to others.

>

> U didnt read the counter arguements then.

 

The arguments was that the raiding community don’t want an easy mode because it would somehow kill their fun, challenge and normal mode.

 

You currently have what you want, enjoy it while it lasts.

[Zenith.7301]

Raids are fine. I had never raided at their very release and within 2 weeks of returning to the game I killed Deimos in a PuG in about 6 pulls. The end boss of a wing dead in 6 pulls is ridiculously easy content.

 

The only remotely difficult task in this game is the chronomancer tanking any encounter or maintaining quickness/alacrity. Every other role is complete faceroll.

 

This game is so easy next to WoW's Mythic raids, Wildstar raids, or FFXIV's Savage difficulty raids.

 

Rather, my surprise is with the amount of horrendous players in this game who can't even pull above 14k DPS in a raid. Go back to your open world farms and stay there if that's the kind of effort you want to put forth; other people have no obligation to carry you.

[STIHL.2489]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > > @"yann.1946" said:

> > > > > @"STIHL.2489" Which doesn't necessarily mean keeping the loot away from people their are a lot more reasons explained in this tread explaining why.

> > > >

> > > > No, if you read what the raid proponents say.. it all boils down to that single thing, they want their special loots to feel better then the peasant casuals.

> > > >

> > > > > @"Blocki.4931" said:

> > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > > > > @"Blocki.4931" said:

> > > > > > > Why would the game accomodate YOU when it's mostly your job, you are playing the game you shouldn't complain about having to do so.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Lets get one thing very clear here, it's their Job to entertain me, that is why I pay them. It is not, nor shall it ever be, my job in this relationship. I do this for fun, and escapism, not work, not a job, not a duty, but frivolous mindless escapism. No.. I don't plan to "git gud" as I don't have the time or the give a kitten to turn this game into a work.

> > > > >

> > > > > You're right in that it IS their job to entertain you. You're missing the point however. I clearly said multiple times that not all content has to appeal to everybody and why that is perfectly fine. If something has a requirement you're not willing to commit to, your choice. Don't beg for them to remove that requirement for no reason other than you not wanting to put in any work. You can get things done with 30 minutes a day if said things are set up properly. Niche content that doesn't aim at the target audience is a massive failure, nothing else.

> > > > >

> > > > > Casuals can stay in their own lane and not demand everything to be casual friendly, despite 95% of the content being aimed at them. Let that last 5% aim for its own specific audience. Easy.

> > > >

> > > > Lets get things clear, 100% of this content is for people that can do Raids. That means, there is more content for you then anyone else. I don't see how that's fair.

> > > >

> > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > > > > @"Blocki.4931" said:

> > > > > > > Why would the game accomodate YOU when it's mostly your job, you are playing the game you shouldn't complain about having to do so.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Lets get one thing very clear here, it's their Job to entertain me, that is why I pay them.

> > > > >

> > > > > There's your problem. You're not the only one paying. It's their job to entertain *all* of their customers, not just you personally. And because these customers all have their own preferences, it is not possible to make every single feature in the game be entertaining, or appeal, to everyone equally. Hence the need for different content catering to the desires for particular groups of players. Of course not all of it will match your own preferences. It was never the intent, and it never will be. Because your wishes aren't any more special than those of any other customer.

> > > >

> > > > And... wrong again.

> > > >

> > > > 100% of the content in this game is available and accessible to someone with the skills to do raids. That means, while we both may pay into the game, you directly get more content made for you. Now unless you spend directly more then I do to justify the additional content made just for you, that's just a bad customer service plan.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > Let me tell you a secret, we're not born with raiding superpowers. The skills you talk about? They're *trained*. By - surprise, surprise - raiding. So don't give me that load of dolyak crap. The game gives precisely the same options to each and every of its customers. It is our preferences, and ultimately our choices, which make our experiences different. You're not happy about something? Then change your choices. Simple. It's easier to complain on forums, I'll give you that. But you're not going to accomplish anything.

> >

> > Given they put this content in because people complained on the forums.. I'd say.. you're wrong again.

> >

> > Seems to be an ongoing trend with you.

>

> Wanna bet? :)

 

That they put this content in because people complained on the forums.. sure... and.. since that is why they did it... You're wrong again.

 

Well at least you are consistent.

[STIHL.2489]

> @"Anvil.9230" said:

> I also play an other game you know perhaps: Eve Online.

>

> It's a different kind of MMO of course, a sandbox...and it has not the reputation to be an easy game....

> In this other MMO, it is to the players to improve themselves....Never, they ask the team who develop the game to decrease its diffiulty...or nerf this or that.

> A big part of people satisfaction is the progress they made.

> As death is very punitive in that game, people has to prove their capacity before to be involved into risky business....They have to progress and to socialize to join people who do interesting things (so with a big reward but also a big risk).

>

>

> By comparison, access to GW2 raid is not difficult.

>

> ;)

>

 

You know, EvE is a great example to use, I mean it's older game that is still growing, which, bucks all the trends that people try to use in this discussion, EvE is a very niche focused game, it has a demographic it strives for, and because of that,. those that come to it know what they are getting.

 

Now, for the sake of this discussion.. imagine how stupid and against the very core idea of the game it would be to go to EvE and ask for easy content.

 

Imagine how foolish it would be to feel that the game, built and designed as EvE was, should change it's foundation design direction, and instead put in content directed at casual easy mode players, because they need content too?

 

Now imagine how pissed off some players would be if the developers did just that and put in content to placate them?

 

Give that a good through thinking, of how much it would piss you off and in many ways, ruin the game for you, if they abandoned their core design principals like that.

 

Well now you know how badly Raids just shafted GW2.

 

Which is why.. GW2 will and is taking a fiscal hit for them, and a game like EvE keeping to their directions is still going strong all these years later.

 

Now, it's just a question of How far Anet plans to tumble for this mistake. I mean they can't dance this line, it's not working for them, that is for sure.

[Anvil.9230]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> (...)

> Now, for the sake of this discussion.. imagine how stupid and against the very core idea of the game it would be to go to EvE and ask for easy content.

> (...)

You're right.

 

I mean...I play Eve for a long time...it has been by far my main game during several years.

I play Gw2 because some of my close friends (who themselves do not play Eve) chosed to play it, and I simply wanted to play with them. I stay beacause the game Gw2 is pleasent in term of story telling. As death is not punitive and as there's no real stake to play mass or small scale pvp, it's a funny place to relax...even if the counterpart of this is the lack of adrenaline ;) Raids offer a coordination challenge I appreciate.

 

But well...It's always a surprise to me to observe players asking to the team who develop GW2 to nerf this or that instead of trying to find solution playing the game....

I'm always surprised by the amount of post asking to nerf playable character...the PVE game (I remember the amount of post asking that at HOT release...)...

 

Anyway....As I said in a previous comment, it take me one month and a half starting from 0 and using LFG (no raid guild) to unlock the raid legendary armor....taking into account the obligation to loot Gorseval 5 times to do that (5 weeks...)....According to that experience, I think GW2 raids are not so difficult as long as you get information on them, adapt your gear and your gameplay, and socialize a minimum to facilitate access to the more technical boss in spite of a lack of LI or KP.

 

The solution to success raids is in the player...not in the development team who only propose a challenge players can accept or decline.

 

[STIHL.2489]

> @"Anvil.9230" said:

> > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > (...)

> > Now, for the sake of this discussion.. imagine how stupid and against the very core idea of the game it would be to go to EvE and ask for easy content.

> > (...)

> You're right.

>

> I mean...I play Eve for a long time...it has been by far my main game during several years.

> I play Gw2 because some of my close friends (who themselves do not play Eve) chosed to play it, and I simply wanted to play with them. I stay beacause the game Gw2 is pleasent in term of story telling. As death is not punitive and as there's no real stake to play mass or small scale pvp, it's a funny place to relax...even if the counterpart of this is the lack of adrenaline ;) Raids offer a coordination challenge I appreciate.

>

> But well...It's always a surprise to me to observe players asking to the team who develop GW2 to nerf this or that instead of trying to find solution playing the game....

> I'm always surprised by the amount of post asking to nerf playable character...the PVE game (I remember the amount of post asking that at HOT release...)...

>

> Anyway....As I said in a previous comment, it take me one month and a half starting from 0 and using LFG (no raid guild) to unlock the raid legendary armor....taking into account the obligation to loot Gorseval 5 times to do that (5 weeks...)....According to that experience, I think GW2 raids are not so difficult as long as you get information on them, adapt your gear and your gameplay, and socialize a minimum to facilitate access to the more technical boss in spite of a lack of LI or KP.

>

> The solution to success raids is in the player...not in the development team who only propose a challenge players can accept or decline.

>

 

...or maybe this is the wrong game for you, just like EvE is the Wrong game for me.

[Anvil.9230]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

>

> ...or maybe this is the wrong game for you, just like EvE is the Wrong game for me.

 

Well...I don't think so...I appreciate the two for different reasons...

Like I enjoy to take a bike ride or to pilot my motorcycle: not exactly for the same reasons, but I guess with a common point.

I think the main source of personnal satisfaction is to develop capacity to find solution and to progress.

 

And it can be not so difficult.

 

As an example, the friends I have spoken about and whom make me to play that game didn't want to play raids....too much frustration according to them.

 

I bring them with me and 2-3 good raid players who has joined our guilde and...it was catastrophic.

 

I and raid players have observed them, spoken with them...and we have dicovered a thing: they "mouse click"....What a simple thing....they "mouse click".... Something raids guides don't think to deal with so much that seems obvious.

They played all the game like that, even lvl 100 fractal (I don't play myself due to a lack of time and interest). "Mouse click" the golem is perhaps possible...but in raid it is quite impossible...I try myself to see and it's hawfull due to the impossibility to develop a correct rotation, moving and doing boss mechanism at the same time.

 

It take us 2 weeks to make them to accept to change and to use a keyboard: habits are stubborn....

But well last week, they success their first bosses: cairn, mursat, Samarog and VG....And of course they were happy.

 

[crepuscular.9047]

Easy Mode, definitely not, don't go down the path of WoW

Hard Mode, not too sure, there is only a very small portion of the Raid communicate find raid too easy, anet will need to find enough financial justifications to work on it; the problem is certain builds are way too OP for PvE

 

I see the current GW2 raid environment like vanilla WoW's Upper Blackrock Spire, good groups can breeze through it, average groups can only progress up to a certain point, bad groups get destroyed

[STIHL.2489]

> @"Anvil.9230" said:

> > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> >

> > ...or maybe this is the wrong game for you, just like EvE is the Wrong game for me.

>

> Well...I don't think so...I appreciate the two for different reasons...

> Like I enjoy to take a bike ride or to pilot my motorcycle: not exactly for the same reasons, but I guess with a common point.

> I think the main source of personnal satisfaction is to develop capacity to find solution and to progress.

>

> And it can be not so difficult.

>

> As an example, the friends I have spoken about and whom make me to play that game didn't want to play raids....too much frustration according to them.

>

> I bring them with me and 2-3 good raid players who has joined our guilde and...it was catastrophic.

>

> I and raid players have observed them, spoken with them...and we have dicovered a thing: they "mouse click"....What a simple thing....they "mouse click".... Something raids guides don't think to deal with so much that seems obvious.

> They played all the game like that, even lvl 100 fractal (I don't play myself due to a lack of time and interest). "Mouse click" the golem is perhaps possible...but in raid it is quite impossible...I try myself to see and it's hawfull due to the impossibility to develop a correct rotation, moving and doing boss mechanism at the same time.

>

> It take us 2 weeks to make them to accept to change and to use a keyboard: habits are stubborn....

> But well last week, they success their first bosses: cairn, mursat, Samarog and VG....And of course they were happy.

>

 

How ironic.. if you come here and say the game is too easy and needs raids.. but think you belong.

 

But if someone else joins and game that is too hard and wants it easier you believe they don't belong.

 

Nice Double standard there.

 

I have a Snowboard and Snowmobile and a .. when I ride my board.. I don't keep wanting to put a motor on it to make it more challenging.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"yann.1946" said:

>I understand you dislike the addition of raids in this game but we have to work forward with what we have. Deleting them would do more harm then good.

 

Maybe. That's debatable. But adding an easy mode would mitigate a lot of the harm they caused, by bridging the divide between "players who don't enjoy raiding" and "content that the developers have stuck behind the raid wall."

 

>But the people doing this failing are enjoying this. Which is quite the difference really. I'm talking why should people do things they don't enjoy.

 

Because they enjoy the game as a whole, and would enjoy having more complete access to it. They don't want to play hard mode raids, but they do want to play through that portion of the story. They don't want to play hard mode raids, but they do want to be able to play through other parts of the game while wearing skins that can only be found there. You don't have to understand their reasons. You don't have to empathize with their reasons. Just understand that their reasons exist, and there's nothing you can do about that, so your only options are to help, stay out of their way, or deliberately place yourself in the way of them getting what they want out of the game.

 

>If the path actually erodes their enjoyment they should not pursue it period. What's the point having something if you would stop playing the game persueing it?

 

But they don't currently have that option. They have two options: A. Play the mode, which would erode their joy, or B. Don't play the mode, don't get the result they wanted, which would also erode their joy. Neither of those options would not erode their joy. The option we're looking for, C. Have an alternate path to pursue that goal that does not require playing that play style, is not currently available, and you at least *seem* to be fighting to prevent it being available.

 

> @"Blocki.4931" said:

> Casuals can stay in their own lane and not demand everything to be casual friendly, despite 95% of the content being aimed at them. Let that last 5% aim for its own specific audience. Easy.

 

OR, they could ask for the things that they want. Easy.

 

 

> @"Grogba.6204" said:

>Newsflash, I paid them too and I enjoy the current raids and would like more wings to be released in the future. What is this now, a kitten measuring contest? Vote with your wallet?

 

No, but nobody is trying to stop you from having the current raids or more wings in the future, so what's your point? You'll always have what you want, this is about whether other people will *also* be able to get what they want.

 

>Nobody forces you to play raids and if you only play for escapism sake then why would you even require legendary armor because let us be honest here, all you

want from raids is quick gratification and shinies, lot's of shinies, and the second you acquire said shinies you would just leave that part of the content behind you since it doesn't offer you anything beyond that. Why should you care about the enjoyment of others.

 

So what? What would be wrong with wanting the shinies? And if the shineies shoudln't be worth *us* caring about,then how would they be worth *you* caring about keeping them *away* from us? If you're that serious that nobody has a right to care about the shinies, then just let us have our shinies and we'll be on our way.

 

>I can't obtain Warbringer without playing WvW nor can I obtain the Ascencion without playing PvP. Same goes for Ad Infinitum which requires one to play fractals and every single one of them is at the very least two months of work (less so nowadays for Ad Infinitum). Time to add an "redeem legendary backpack" vendor to all three modes?

 

Yes, obviously.

 

[Anvil.9230]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

>

> How ironic.. if you come here and say the game is too easy and needs raids.. but think you belong.

>

> But if someone else joins and game that is too hard and wants it easier you believe they don't belong.

>

> Nice Double standard there.

>

> I have a Snowboard and Snowmobile and a .. when I ride my board.. I don't keep wanting to put a motor on it to make it more challenging.

 

Well...i think the game is correctly balanced, with very easy parts, some a little less...and well in fact we can find all the levels of difficulty until what seems here the most difficult part: raids.

 

And beyond that, the raids are not equal in term of challenge: Cairn, mursat and samarog I help my friend to success are quite easy if we compare them with a boss like matthias.

 

The game is vast...And every body can find something adapted to his capacity and desire. Finally raids are only a small part of it, dedicated to those who want more challenge...let's leave them this pleasure.

[STIHL.2489]

> @"Anvil.9230" said:

> > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> >

> > How ironic.. if you come here and say the game is too easy and needs raids.. but think you belong.

> >

> > But if someone else joins and game that is too hard and wants it easier you believe they don't belong.

> >

> > Nice Double standard there.

> >

> > I have a Snowboard and Snowmobile and a .. when I ride my board.. I don't keep wanting to put a motor on it to make it more challenging.

>

> Well...i think the game is correctly balanced, with very easy parts, some a little less...and well in fact we can find all the levels of difficulty until what seems here the most difficult part: raids.

>

> And beyond that, the raids are not equal in term of challenge: Cairn, mursat and samarog I help my friend to success are quite easy if we compare them with a boss like matthias.

>

> The game is vast...And every body can find something adapted to his capacity and desire. Finally raids are only a small part of it, dedicated to those who want more challenge...let's leave them this pleasure.

 

but even you said, you can go from Level 0 to Legendary armor Unlock in 6 weeks, of which requires 5 raid runs, they are not balanced, to someone like you, they are a joke, so they offer you no challenge at all. All they do is annoy and aggravate their other players.. seems like really out of place content if you ask me.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Anvil.9230" said:

> The game is vast...And every body can find something adapted to his capacity and desire. Finally raids are only a small part of it, dedicated to those who want more challenge...let's leave them this pleasure.

 

And nobody is arguing otherwise. We're just asking for something *in addition to that.*

 

Please do not try to frame this as anyone "taking away" anything, because that has nothing to do with the conversation at hand.

[zealex.9410]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > @"Anvil.9230" said:

> > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > >

> > > ...or maybe this is the wrong game for you, just like EvE is the Wrong game for me.

> >

> > Well...I don't think so...I appreciate the two for different reasons...

> > Like I enjoy to take a bike ride or to pilot my motorcycle: not exactly for the same reasons, but I guess with a common point.

> > I think the main source of personnal satisfaction is to develop capacity to find solution and to progress.

> >

> > And it can be not so difficult.

> >

> > As an example, the friends I have spoken about and whom make me to play that game didn't want to play raids....too much frustration according to them.

> >

> > I bring them with me and 2-3 good raid players who has joined our guilde and...it was catastrophic.

> >

> > I and raid players have observed them, spoken with them...and we have dicovered a thing: they "mouse click"....What a simple thing....they "mouse click".... Something raids guides don't think to deal with so much that seems obvious.

> > They played all the game like that, even lvl 100 fractal (I don't play myself due to a lack of time and interest). "Mouse click" the golem is perhaps possible...but in raid it is quite impossible...I try myself to see and it's hawfull due to the impossibility to develop a correct rotation, moving and doing boss mechanism at the same time.

> >

> > It take us 2 weeks to make them to accept to change and to use a keyboard: habits are stubborn....

> > But well last week, they success their first bosses: cairn, mursat, Samarog and VG....And of course they were happy.

> >

>

> How ironic.. if you come here and say the game is too easy and needs raids.. but think you belong.

>

> But if someone else joins and game that is too hard and wants it easier you believe they don't belong.

>

> Nice Double standard there.

>

> I have a Snowboard and Snowmobile and a .. when I ride my board.. I don't keep wanting to put a motor on it to make it more challenging.

 

Well anet from the start wanted challenging content. Dungeons flopped and the instead turned the attention into raids which are endgame and could be made from the ground up as hard content.

 

Its not like they came out of the blue both devs and players wanted challenging content and at least in the player's side i know alot of ppl who are glad that anet didnt drop it.

[zealex.9410]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Anvil.9230" said:

> > The game is vast...And every body can find something adapted to his capacity and desire. Finally raids are only a small part of it, dedicated to those who want more challenge...let's leave them this pleasure.

>

> And nobody is arguing otherwise. We're just asking for something *in addition to that.*

>

> Please do not try to frame this as anyone "taking away" anything, because that has nothing to do with the conversation at hand.

 

U might not realise it but an easy mode will take away from the normal mode. Namely it will either take longer to get a wing or the wing will be poorly made because they got more modes to worry about.

[STIHL.2489]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > @"Anvil.9230" said:

> > > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > >

> > > > ...or maybe this is the wrong game for you, just like EvE is the Wrong game for me.

> > >

> > > Well...I don't think so...I appreciate the two for different reasons...

> > > Like I enjoy to take a bike ride or to pilot my motorcycle: not exactly for the same reasons, but I guess with a common point.

> > > I think the main source of personnal satisfaction is to develop capacity to find solution and to progress.

> > >

> > > And it can be not so difficult.

> > >

> > > As an example, the friends I have spoken about and whom make me to play that game didn't want to play raids....too much frustration according to them.

> > >

> > > I bring them with me and 2-3 good raid players who has joined our guilde and...it was catastrophic.

> > >

> > > I and raid players have observed them, spoken with them...and we have dicovered a thing: they "mouse click"....What a simple thing....they "mouse click".... Something raids guides don't think to deal with so much that seems obvious.

> > > They played all the game like that, even lvl 100 fractal (I don't play myself due to a lack of time and interest). "Mouse click" the golem is perhaps possible...but in raid it is quite impossible...I try myself to see and it's hawfull due to the impossibility to develop a correct rotation, moving and doing boss mechanism at the same time.

> > >

> > > It take us 2 weeks to make them to accept to change and to use a keyboard: habits are stubborn....

> > > But well last week, they success their first bosses: cairn, mursat, Samarog and VG....And of course they were happy.

> > >

> >

> > How ironic.. if you come here and say the game is too easy and needs raids.. but think you belong.

> >

> > But if someone else joins and game that is too hard and wants it easier you believe they don't belong.

> >

> > Nice Double standard there.

> >

> > I have a Snowboard and Snowmobile and a .. when I ride my board.. I don't keep wanting to put a motor on it to make it more challenging.

>

> Well anet from the start wanted challenging content. Dungeons flopped and the instead turned the attention into raids which are endgame and could be made from the ground up as hard content.

>

> Its not like they came out of the blue both devs and players wanted challenging content and at least in the player's side i know alot of ppl who are glad that anet didnt drop it.

 

Forgetting about Fractals I see.. and how they even toned them down because they at one time were too hard.. yah.. No.. they did not go from Dungeons to Raids

[zealex.9410]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > @"Anvil.9230" said:

> > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > >

> > > > > ...or maybe this is the wrong game for you, just like EvE is the Wrong game for me.

> > > >

> > > > Well...I don't think so...I appreciate the two for different reasons...

> > > > Like I enjoy to take a bike ride or to pilot my motorcycle: not exactly for the same reasons, but I guess with a common point.

> > > > I think the main source of personnal satisfaction is to develop capacity to find solution and to progress.

> > > >

> > > > And it can be not so difficult.

> > > >

> > > > As an example, the friends I have spoken about and whom make me to play that game didn't want to play raids....too much frustration according to them.

> > > >

> > > > I bring them with me and 2-3 good raid players who has joined our guilde and...it was catastrophic.

> > > >

> > > > I and raid players have observed them, spoken with them...and we have dicovered a thing: they "mouse click"....What a simple thing....they "mouse click".... Something raids guides don't think to deal with so much that seems obvious.

> > > > They played all the game like that, even lvl 100 fractal (I don't play myself due to a lack of time and interest). "Mouse click" the golem is perhaps possible...but in raid it is quite impossible...I try myself to see and it's hawfull due to the impossibility to develop a correct rotation, moving and doing boss mechanism at the same time.

> > > >

> > > > It take us 2 weeks to make them to accept to change and to use a keyboard: habits are stubborn....

> > > > But well last week, they success their first bosses: cairn, mursat, Samarog and VG....And of course they were happy.

> > > >

> > >

> > > How ironic.. if you come here and say the game is too easy and needs raids.. but think you belong.

> > >

> > > But if someone else joins and game that is too hard and wants it easier you believe they don't belong.

> > >

> > > Nice Double standard there.

> > >

> > > I have a Snowboard and Snowmobile and a .. when I ride my board.. I don't keep wanting to put a motor on it to make it more challenging.

> >

> > Well anet from the start wanted challenging content. Dungeons flopped and the instead turned the attention into raids which are endgame and could be made from the ground up as hard content.

> >

> > Its not like they came out of the blue both devs and players wanted challenging content and at least in the player's side i know alot of ppl who are glad that anet didnt drop it.

>

> Forgetting about Fractals I see.. and how they even toned them down because they at one time were too hard.. yah.. No.. they did not go from Dungeons to Raids

 

Well fractals are the new dungeons and by design they dont want them to be as hard as raids. Also some of the challenge comes from coordination so to coordinate a 5 man group is easier than a 10 man (both are relatively easy but nvm that) so a good way ti further emphasize that dificulty is to up the player count while also having a respectable bar of base skill.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> U might not realise it but an easy mode will take away from the normal mode.

 

No, it won't.

 

>Namely it will either take longer to get a wing or the wing will be poorly made because they got more modes to worry about.

 

Making the easy mode should not in any way distract the team from working on hard mode. It is just a matter of taking the hard mode and tuning back a few things. Besides, even if it did, that's *future* content, not *current* content. The *current* content would remain in place. There are no guarantees one way or the other about what *future* content would be like. You might argue that future content would be negatively impacted, but if the existence of easy mode makes it more popular overall, then it might just as easily result in *more and better* hard mode raids. There's no way of knowing in advance.

 

 

[zealex.9410]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > U might not realise it but an easy mode will take away from the normal mode.

>

> No, it won't.

>

> >Namely it will either take longer to get a wing or the wing will be poorly made because they got more modes to worry about.

>

> Making the easy mode should not in any way distract the team from working on hard mode. It is just a matter of taking the hard mode and tuning back a few things. Besides, even if it did, that's *future* content, not *current* content. The *current* content would remain in place. There are no guarantees one way or the other about what *future* content would be like. You might argue that future content would be negatively impacted, but if the existence of easy mode makes it more popular overall, then it might just as easily result in *more and better* hard mode raids. There's no way of knowing in advance.

>

>

 

Developers and development time doesnt grow on trees.

 

No, this isnt a 2 way relationship between the modes. The hard mode will always get its basic easy mode but if the easy mode proves sucessful nothing says that that success will be noticed in the quality of future normal raids.

 

Thats because ppl wont do the jump from one mode to the other for various reasons.

1. being they dont care for the hard content. 2. having the normal mode rewards be aquireable through the easy mode will remove any thought they had of even touching it in the first place..

3. If someone wants to do the jump in raiding he can already do it even if all he did in the past was t4 fractals.

 

The previous big thread you made has alot of responces explaining hows that the case.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> No, this isnt a 2 way relationship between the modes. The hard mode will always get its basic easy mode but if the easy mode proves sucessful nothing says that that success will be noticed in the quality of future normal raids.

 

If so, then that would be the best for the game, so no reason to complain about it. I don't see that as the outcome though. Even if players *don't* migrate from easy to hard (which I believe *would* happen), since they share content, the more popular the two *combined* are, the more resourced they can apply to content that is shared by both. Basically, if they assign, say, 100 manhours per week to making the next raid, based on the number of people who currently raid, but then easy mode doubles the total people playing raids, they could afford to budget more manhours to "making raids," and the amount of time it would take to scale down the hard mode to easy would be negligible in comparison to the added time they could afford to pump into the total system.

 

>1. being they dont care for the hard content. 2. having the normal mode rewards be aquireable through the easy mode will remove any thought they had of even touching it in the first place..

 

If they don't care for hard content, then that could only be a good thing, because they wouldn't enjoy the hard mode anyway. Nobody could be upset about that happening.

 

>3. If someone wants to do the jump in raiding he can already do it even if all he did in the past was t4 fractals.

 

"Could," but not necessarily "would." If a player was really motivated to do hard mode then sure, they could jump right into it, but if they weren't super motivated, then playing easy mode might give them enough of a taste that they feel like doing hard mode. There will even be scenarios in which Player A only wants to do easy mode, but draws Player B into doing easy mode as part of their normal friendly rotation, and Player B enjoys it and is of the mindset appropriate to hardmode, and eventually shifts toward it. I mean, you can argue until the cows come home (and I'm *positive* that you will anyway) that players will never shift from easy to hard mode, but decades of videogame experience indicates that plenty of players do.

 

It *will* happen, the only question is by how much. The question is, are there more people playing raids right now, who would really prefer to be playing easy mode instead, than there are people who genuinely would prefer hard mode?

 

[Assic.2746]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> Because they enjoy the game as a whole, and would enjoy having more complete access to it. They don't want to play hard mode raids, but they do want to play through that portion of the story. They don't want to play hard mode raids, **but they do want to be able to play through other parts of the game while wearing skins that can only be found there**. You don't have to understand their reasons. You don't have to empathize with their reasons. Just understand that their reasons exist, and there's nothing you can do about that, so your only options are to help, stay out of their way, or deliberately place yourself in the way of them getting what they want out of the game.

 

So once again it just boils down to the shinies.

 

 

[zealex.9410]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > No, this isnt a 2 way relationship between the modes. The hard mode will always get its basic easy mode but if the easy mode proves sucessful nothing says that that success will be noticed in the quality of future normal raids.

>

> If so, then that would be the best for the game, so no reason to complain about it. I don't see that as the outcome though. Even if players *don't* migrate from easy to hard (which I believe *would* happen), since they share content, the more popular the two *combined* are, the more resourced they can apply to content that is shared by both. Basically, if they assign, say, 100 manhours per week to making the next raid, based on the number of people who currently raid, but then easy mode doubles the total people playing raids, they could afford to budget more manhours to "making raids," and the amount of time it would take to scale down the hard mode to easy would be negligible in comparison to the added time they could afford to pump into the total system.

>

I can see from their main content that the majority plays and gets priority (aka lw) how much more productive they are. 3, 4 days of content every 3 months.

Or fractals and how those get content so fast...

 

> >1. being they dont care for the hard content. 2. having the normal mode rewards be aquireable through the easy mode will remove any thought they had of even touching it in the first place..

>

> If they don't care for hard content, then that could only be a good thing, because they wouldn't enjoy the hard mode anyway. Nobody could be upset about that happening.

>

I mean sure if the unique rewards for normal mode arent available through easy mode sure. But then whats the point of it anyways.

 

You do the raid for the challenge or the reward and both complement each other.

 

> >3. If someone wants to do the jump in raiding he can already do it even if all he did in the past was t4 fractals.

>

> "Could," but not necessarily "would." If a player was really motivated to do hard mode then sure, they could jump right into it, but if they weren't super motivated, then playing easy mode might give them enough of a taste that they feel like doing hard mode. There will even be scenarios in which Player A only wants to do easy mode, but draws Player B into doing easy mode as part of their normal friendly rotation, and Player B enjoys it and is of the mindset appropriate to hardmode, and eventually shifts toward it. I mean, you can argue until the cows come home (and I'm *positive* that you will anyway) that players will never shift from easy to hard mode, but decades of videogame experience indicates that plenty of players do.

>

 

No because the easy mode isnt an accurate representation of what normal mode raids are. Fractals and cms are much closer to that.

 

> It *will* happen, the only question is by how much. The question is, are there more people playing raids right now, who would really prefer to be playing easy mode instead, than there are people who genuinely would prefer hard mode?

>

 

The actual question is would ppl prefer playing the easy mode for much much less rewards and ofc no li or achievement credit. Or maybe its own skin thats not the normal raid armor skin.